280 replies to this topic

[vitaminboss]

I stumbled upon this thread after a web search. I wanted to see if anyone is experiencing the same side effects that I am. I have been taking epicor for about 2 months now. My wife & three children, along with a few friends are also taking it.

The reason I began taking epicor is for severe seasonal allergies. The allergies which I believe are caused from grass pollens usually hit me in the Spring so I thought I would get a head start. From what I read, epicor could possibly help with the allergies along with cold & flu prevention. I can understand the "placebo effect", but since I did not read about any other effects from taking epicor, I can only imagine the side effects I am experiencing are real.

About a week after taking it, my sense of smell became very strong. My son who also suffers from allergies & asthma also noticed a strong sense of smell after taking it. Besides the Spring time allergies I also suffer from allergies that usually hit me around X-mas time. Up until yesterday I have experienced no allergies this Winter. Yesterday I began with the itchy eyes and sneezing. Today, I'm better but we will have to see. The Springtime will be the big test.

The biggest change I have noticed is my energy level. This is something I did not expect because I personally heard of no such thing in regards to epicor. I typically have a lot of energy but since taking it, I have an abundance of energy all day long. More than ever before. This energy is similar to that of caffeine but without the jitters. It is more like an excitable adrenaline energy than a caffeine energy. My wife and one of my friends taking it are experiencing the same energy. This energy does not effect my sleep. As a matter of fact, I have been sleeping slightly better and a little longer than I did prior to taking epicor. Pin the past, I have always had a problem sleeping as long as I wished to (only about 5 1/2 to 6 hours a night). Now I am sleeping 7 hours.

My wife has experience the only possible negative side effect. After taking epicor for about 2 weeks, her heart occasionally began skipping irregularly. Once she stopped taking it her heart has been beating normal. We are hoping this is coincidence. She will begin taking epicor again in about a week to see if it effects her heart again.
Has anyone else experienced this abundance of energy I am speaking of?
Anyone experience the occasional irregular heart beat?

I am taking it once a day in the pill form from a health/vitamine company.
Gordon

Her heart is skipping beats because her metabolism has sped up too fast, too quickly (perhaps over-stimulating the thyroid). She needs to reduce her dosage for a week or 2 then see how she feels. Sounds like Epicor enhances tissue metabolism. Someone needs to try micronizing this stuff and tryng sublingual administration. If this stuff works via the midbrain like I think it does (central control bia diencaphalic structures, hypothalamus, pituitary) then sublingual would be the best route. Micronizing can be done using a Flour mill, turning it into a VERY FINE POWDER..

[vitaminboss]

I second maxwatt's question. This is apparently a "fermented yeast product". What does that exactly mean? I know the exact composition and production is a trade secret, but someone must at least have a guess.

Also, when the nutritional content includes "ash", what's that?

Also, it has .03 g/100g of iron. Is that high? If you guys/gals are taking a heaping teaspoon, how much of your RDA of iron are you getting?

This reminds me of that Russian product I mentioned in another forum topic. Fermentates are HIGHLY BIOAVAILABLE!! They may have only traces of nutrients in them compared to synthetic USP chemical isolates but they are much better absorbed and utilized by the body. They are able to penetrate cell walls much easier, and the nutrients tend to be bonded in a matrix with chaperon molecules (proteins, lipids, saccharides, flavonoids). Fermenates actually possess a living food bioenergy that has a direct effect on our organism. Chemical isolates go in, stimulate and come out, naturally fermantated products possess an intelligence.. They are modulatory substances, because yeast cells, as most similar single celled organisms that resemble human cells (fungi), have very similar metabolic components, theirfore they are able to stimulate proper tissue metabolism on an informational, metabolic and energetic level.. Don;t under estimate the potential of this product.

[vitaminboss]

Here is some further info on the product (from the product manufacturer). I thought it might be useful to those interested:

http://www.embriahea...com/epicor.html

There are a couple of pdfs on the above site with extra info.

I think I read that the Diamond Feed product isn't the same as Epicor, as they use a different drying process and alter some of the ingredients a bit. I wouldn't feel quite as safe taking animal feed purchased from some guy on ebay vs. a regular supplement purchased from iherb.

I wonder how Epicor compares to glucans or regular brewer's yeast, health-wise? Or how it compares to medicinal mushrooms and the like, regarding immune boosting?

A couple of long term, clinical studies would be useful here, but I don't believe any are out there yet. It seems to be an interesting supplement though. I'm not currently taking it, but I've been looking for something to help ward off colds. My young nephew seems to be a germ factory and each time I babysit him, I happen to catch whatever he has. I'm going to try some extra C + aged garlic, and hope it helps for now.

From my experience with the Russians, its not so much the yeast or organism in the culture thats responsible for the actions as it is the nutrient medium fed to the organism and the biotechnology involved in activating it. The Russians told me that with their proprietary fermentation technology they could make any chinese medicinal mushroom REALLY WORK. And i mean exceed all previous findings dramatically. Seems like Embria has a similar biotech process and nutrient medium that turns yeast into a super ultra metabolite rich substance.

[vitaminboss]

I second maxwatt's question. This is apparently a "fermented yeast product". What does that exactly mean? I know the exact composition and production is a trade secret, but someone must at least have a guess.

Also, when the nutritional content includes "ash", what's that?

Also, it has .03 g/100g of iron. Is that high? If you guys/gals are taking a heaping teaspoon, how much of your RDA of iron are you getting?

Of course that's a high amount of iron. This stuff has the consistency of chopped peanut shells or coarse saw dust. I'm frankly not sure how available the iron is. The "ash" might account for the very salty taste of the stuff. Definitely this is not just yeast. I taste a hint of molasses, grains and that dang saltiness. I suspect that "fermented yeast product" is a misnomer. I think grain has been cracked, mixed with some molasses, yeast and allowed to ferment. The stuff that's left over after the fermentation is dried down. I assume since I don't appear to have genetic defects that accumulate iron that it washes out of my system. Remember, rats were fed this stuff in very high doses (but only for 31 days) with no toxic effects. You've got some valid points, but just as I can't convince others that resveratrol is probably only good for its COX inhibition in humans, I'm not going to be easily convinced to stop taking this stuff.

Imagine this stuff is loaded with natural MSG?? "Yeast Extracts" are synonymous with naturally derived Monosodium Glutamate. That would also explain the salty flavor and reported irregular heartbeats.

[dachshund]

www.duboisdistributors.com

[johnblaze]

Along these lines, here is the first double blind study I have seen of Epicor on Pubmed. Just came out and it looks promising:

Urol Nurs. 2008 Feb;28(1):50-5. Effects of a modified yeast supplement on cold/flu symptoms.
Moyad MA, Robinson LE, Zawada ET Jr, Kittelsrud JM, Chen DG, Reeves SG, Weaver SE.
Preventive and Alternative Medicine, University of Michigan Medical Center, Department of Urology Ann Arbor, MI, USA.

A yeast-based product (EpiCor, a dried Saccharomyces cerevisiae fermentate) was compared to placebo to determine effects on the incidence and duration of cold and flu-like symptoms in healthy subjects recently vaccinated for seasonal influenza. In a 12-week, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial, 116 participants received daily supplementation with 500 mg of EpiCor or placebo for 12 weeks. Data collected included periodic in-clinic examinations and serologic evaluations at baseline, 6- and 12-weeks. Subjects also utilized a standardized self-report symptom diary during the study. Participants receiving the yeast-based product had significantly fewer symptoms and significantly shorter duration of symptoms when compared with subjects taking a placebo.

PMID: 18335698

I haven't read the whole paper, but that abstract doesn't say what metrics they evaluated the subjects by, also those subject were allready vaccinated. Good start though.

Edited by johnblaze, 03 July 2008 - 03:22 AM.

[DukeNukem]

Impressive lecture on Diamond V's Epicor product:

http://www.embriahea...icor_video.html

[krillin]

Anybody find a good source for this. Don't really want to buy a 50 lb bag, but am leary of buying from someone unknown on Ebay. Any references would be appreciated. Thanks.

You could try these guys. I might when my Epicor runs out.

I ordered 4 pounds and it came in a neat bucket with a handle and flip top.

[Lee]

So I am correct in assuming that it is being sold as a "natural/herbal" supplement and thus does not have FDA approval.

I took EPICOR for a few months and had at least 2 colds.........perhaps I needed more, however it was costing $30/month. Some swear by it but it didn't work for me at the prescribed dose.

I am going to try the XPC as it is very cost effective and I will be able to take more of it.

Lee

[TexasRoger]

I know he's taking Diamond V XPC, acquired via Ebay. My question remains: if the recommended dose of Epicor (identical to Diamond V XPC, no?) is 500 mg or 1/8 tsp. per day, why is browser taking a full teaspoon at a time?

I can't imagine. Dr. Williams of "Alternatives," who published the first information I ever saw about XPC in Sep 07, originally recommended 1/4 teaspoon twice daily. This was said to be 2 to 3 grams. More recently he mentioned that he'd miscalculated the dosage and increased the recommendation to about 1/2 teaspoon twice daily. I've been taking XPC ever since I first read about it, and have not had any sort of sickness during that period. Of course I rarely had any sort of sickness or illness before I began taking it, but I did occasionally have a cold or other minor ailment. No one I know who's taking XPC has been ill during the past year.

More importantly, I had a basal cell carcinoma on the side of my nose that developed from a long-time wart. When it began to change, I saw a dermatologist, who excised a small part of the wart and had it biopsied. When I returned to him to hear the verdict, he confirmed that it was BCC and scheduled me for Mohs' surgery and reconstruction. However, during those few weeks the area cleared up, and I cancelled the Mohs' surgery. BCC virtually never metastasizes. The dermatologist was alarmed when he learned of this, and asked me to return for consultation. I did that today, and after he examined the location, he agreed that it appeared to have gone away, but pointed out that it could still be active beneath the surface. He acknowledged, however, that it was unlikely that it could spread beneath the surface without causing some pain and distention on the surface. He reluctantly assented to my decision to postpone further action and see him again in a year, or if/when anything visible or tangible occurred.

In addition to the XPC I began taking 5mg of resveratrol extract daily a few months ago. Whether either or both of these supplements halted and reversed the BCC is impossible to say, but I don't believe in spontaneous remission nor in coincidences. Time will tell if the remission is permanent, but for now it's a fact.

I don't think anyone knows what the added benefit of overdosing with XPC would be, since that wasn't part of the study. I can't see how it could possibly hurt, however, and it might help if you're trying to eradicate something. Certainly it's cheap enough.

I am an implacable foe of the pharmaco-medical juggernaut. I believe it's the goal of Big Pharma to get every adult and child in the world on daily drugs -- as many as possible -- and that they are unprincipled for the most part and willing to do whatever it takes to achieve that goal. Most physicians are dupes of these greedy scumbags, and this can partly be explained by the fact that, in 2006, pharmaceutical companies bribed physicians and clinics to the tune of $19 BILLION (The Economist). This was done in the form of free buffets and meals, travel, funding conventions in Hawaii, the Caribbean, etc., "education," free samples, inflated fees and honorariums, and other means. That's a lot of money, and they wouldn't be spending it if there weren't a quid pro quo. Thus my determination to take responsibility for my health and to get off all prescription drugs. XPC and resveratrol are two good steps toward that goal. A proper diet and exercise are two others.

[TexasRoger]

Very interested in this. Researching it, I see comments about the "sawdust" consistency. I note that besides Diamond V XPC and Diamond V XPC Green there's also a "Diamond V Yeast Culture." From the dosages suggested on www.mathieenergy.com for XPC and for Yeast Culture, the yeast culture appears to be about 10x more concentrated... which leads me to wonder whether it's the pure yeast formula without including some of the "feed" aspects that would give the texture commented on.

Anyone trying the pure Yeast Culture? Or has anyone researched it? Is it the same thing?

Can't say that the fiber is a BAD idea, anyway... would just have to figure out how to ingest it! lol

Here are some ideas on ingesting XPC: 1) in a protein shake or any blended concoction (as I do); 2) in V8 juice; 3) in oatmeal; 4) put it in waffle or pancake mix, where it's undetectable; 5) in apple sauce. And one of my daughters simply puts the 1/2 teaspoonful far back on her tongue and swallows it, washing it down with water or tea. I'm sure there are many other ways.

If you tend to catch everything that comes along and/or have a chronic ailment, how can you NOT try it? Pennies a day, no side effects, plenty of anecdotal testimonials, and at least one valid study make it a no-brainer to me...

[TexasRoger]

Can someone please give me name address and phone number of company or companies that will sell 50# of XPC for $30 for a 50# bag. I want to buy a 50# bag and don't want to pay an inflated price of over $100 or a 100# bag of XPC... Thanks...

You aren't going to find a 50-lb. bag for $30 or $40. It's more like $90, and that was before the craze began. I haven't bought a bag since last fall, but I'll guarantee you it hasn't gotten cheaper. If you balk at buying it by the pound on Ebay, buy a bag and resell the surplus to recover your cost. Get a copy of Dr. Williams' Sep 07 newsletter and give it to friends and relatives; they'll snap up any extra. I sold my extra in less than two weeks, and recovered the cost of the bag and then some. The shelf life is at least two years, and buying the 50-lb. bag insures that you get the real item.

[TexasRoger]

I have noticed an increase in vitality since adding half a teaspoon twice a day. I seem to be recovering from training better and my airways appear to be clearer. Despite my current period of hard training (over-training can acutely lower the immune system), the onset of winter here in the north of Ireland, and most people I know coming down with a cold, I have remained in good health (touch wood) thus far. Admittedly these benefits are rather ambiguous and subjective.

I had previously been taking bio-strath which is a brewer's yeast type product and hadn't noticed these benefits.

Despite continued supplementation I now have a cold. :ang:

Quarter, you don't say how long you'd been taking it. Also, your immune system might have been depressed for any number of reasons. I'm not saying it always works for all cases, but I know dozens of people who're taking it, and none has yet had a cold or the flu since they began. My wife is a nurse in a large hospital and is in contact with every bacteria and virus you can imagine, and since beginning to consume XPC she has never caught anything. Our energy level is excellent, and while I hadn't thought about it, after reading that others are having more vivid dreams I realized that I am too. Not a problem for me...

[TexasRoger]

A poster with a beautiful bullmastiff named Sam, mentioned this on the
Resveratrol for Dogs thread and I came to check it out.
He gives it to his dog. So I did and it looks good, like a tonic, but thats it. I
don't really see it as an amazing substance, i.e Res. But I think it's a nice
healthy combination of things. Some veterinary products have great
ingredients. I used to give them Nupro, also great ingredients but VERY
expensive. I'm going to get it for my dogs. Can somebody please suggest
the best and most economical resource. Thanks

Ebay!

on ebay its $5 to $7 per lb. thats expensive. IIRC browser paid $30 for a 50lb bab as did somebody else. That's what I need.
I have to huge adult size dogs.

ETA~ Forget about it. I just read the ingredients* and got grossed out. Sorry to the people who are into it. To each his own. But if I want immune support I would just as soon eat aloe, nice and pure the way it comes out of the earth, or take CoQ10. I don't get the fascination with this product.

*

Feed ingredient produced by fermenting selected liquid and cereal grain raw ingredients with bakers yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae) and drying the entire culture-media without destroying the yeast factors, B-vitamins and other fermentation products. Used in a wide variety of animal feeds including dairy, swine, beef, horse, poultry, aquaculture and petfoods. Product of the USA.

List of Ingredients:
Saccharomyces cerevisiae yeast and the media on which it was grown consisting of ground yellow corn, hominy feed, corn gluten feed, wheat middlings, rye middlings, diastatic malt and corn syrup, and cane molasses.
Guaranteed Analysis:

I don't understand why you are upset about the ingredients. They're all natural, and either grain or plant derivatives. And I challenge you or anyone to post the source of a 50-lb. bag for $30. Not possible if you get the real stuff. Mine cost over $90 with tax, FOB Missouri, where I picked it up while on a trip.

[TexasRoger]

quarter how much have you been taking per day? That sucks, to have gotten a cold:( for me the benefits i noticed was better digestion and sleeping patterns.

So far everything reported about this supplement is consistent with the placebo effect.

You seem to know more about the placebo effects than i so i'll ask you this, was what browser reported to have happened to him since taking Diamond V XPC, consistent with the placebo effect?

Only until he shows us before and after pictures. OR was it the RNA injections?

I totally disagree with the assumption that the beneficial effects of XPC can be attributed to the placebo effect. Hogwash!

The effects first came to light when it was noted that people who worked in the plant where XPC was made didn't ever get sick. Other members of their families did. Upon a lengthy and thorough investigation it was determined that these people were breathing the dust from the process, and that this was apparently strengthening their immune systems to a very high level. That cannot be attributed to the placebo effect. Once this was established, the company then conducted a study, which resulted in EpiCor. While there are very slight differences between XPC for animals and EpiCor for humans, according to Dr. Williams these are negligible. He and his family have used it for more than a year with excellent results, as have I and my family. My wife and I are in the field of medicine and are well aware of the placebo effect. We're convinced it is working as we'd been led to believe, without question. But even if there is a placebo effect, it's the result that matters. And if people who take it don't get sick, where's the harm?

[stephen_b]

But even if there is a placebo effect, it's the result that matters. And if people who take it don't get sick, where's the harm?

Here's some unsubstantiated speculation on my part. If the mechanism of action is multiplying immune cells, then isn't there the chance that the average telomere length of the cells might become smaller? Apparently that's how AIDS wipes out the immune system. Anything to worry about here?

Stephen

[quarter]

I have noticed an increase in vitality since adding half a teaspoon twice a day. I seem to be recovering from training better and my airways appear to be clearer. Despite my current period of hard training (over-training can acutely lower the immune system), the onset of winter here in the north of Ireland, and most people I know coming down with a cold, I have remained in good health (touch wood) thus far. Admittedly these benefits are rather ambiguous and subjective.

I had previously been taking bio-strath which is a brewer's yeast type product and hadn't noticed these benefits.

Despite continued supplementation I now have a cold. :ang:

Quarter, you don't say how long you'd been taking it. Also, your immune system might have been depressed for any number of reasons. I'm not saying it always works for all cases, but I know dozens of people who're taking it, and none has yet had a cold or the flu since they began. My wife is a nurse in a large hospital and is in contact with every bacteria and virus you can imagine, and since beginning to consume XPC she has never caught anything. Our energy level is excellent, and while I hadn't thought about it, after reading that others are having more vivid dreams I realized that I am too. Not a problem for me...

Not sure how long I had been taking it at the time but I did get a minor cold, perhaps it would have been more severe had I not been taking XPC. I was merely adding my anecdote and stating that, at least for me, it did not provide 100% insurance against the cold virus. Yes, I was involved in a pretty strenuous endurance exercise training at the time which quite probably depressed my immune system.

I have continued to take it since and have not been sick again, although I am rarely sick during the summer anyway with the exception of hayfever on which XPC had no effect but which was effectively controlled by my beclomethasone nasal inhaler.

[Phoebus]

very interesting thread, thanks to all who participated, I am going to order some and try it.

[TexasRoger]

But even if there is a placebo effect, it's the result that matters. And if people who take it don't get sick, where's the harm?

Here's some unsubstantiated speculation on my part. If the mechanism of action is multiplying immune cells, then isn't there the chance that the average telomere length of the cells might become smaller? Apparently that's how AIDS wipes out the immune system. Anything to worry about here?

Stephen

It doesn't multiply the immune cells, Stephen. It simply makes them much stronger, without affecting the necessary balance between them and the other cells in the immune system.

[rwac]

After reading this thread, I recently started taking Diamond V XPC.

Not sure how many grams I'm taking. I should probably get a scale.

But I can second the fact that it helps with sleep.
I used to take tryptophan and melatonin to sleep.
I've halved the amount of tryptophan, and dropped the melatonin completely.

Also, this time, I've had a cold(or was it the FLU?!) for the last week or so, and it seems to be unusually mild.

[mross]

I'm a new member but have been following this thread for the past year. Since no one has reported growing any hoofs or tails, I'll be joining my fellow guinea pigs on this as I just bought a bag. (I second the high price, I paid $95 with tax) So far I have been on it for 2 days at 1 teaspoon in the morning. Nothing to report.

[stephen_b]

"Lessons learned from the 2007-2008 cold and flu season: what worked and what was worthless", PMID 18488594:

The 2007-2008 cold and flu season had a feeble beginning but a dramatic end. Most states in the U.S. were reporting their highest number of flu cases well into February and March. It is concerning that not only the public but health care professionals have not embraced widespread vaccination because approximately 200,000 hospitalizations and 36,000 deaths a year continue to make this condition one of the leading preventable causes of morbidity and mortality. The real question that needs to be asked next year is who should not be vaccinated rather than who needs to be vaccinated. Preventive measures with soap and water and 62% ethyl alcohol hand gels continue to make sense, whereas the antibacterial soaps seem to provide no added protection and theoretically increase the risk of bacterial resistance. A few dietary supplements garnered some attention. Among products with clinical research, an oral 500 mg qd immunogenic fermentate (Epicor) reduced the risk and duration of cold and flu symptoms in subjects vaccinated for seasonal influenza. Two novel prescription medications (zanamivir [Relenza], and oseltamivir [Tamiflu]) are available for the prevention and/or treatment of influenza and also have demonstrated minimal resistance compared to the older medications. These FDA-approved medications should receive more attention because of their overall effectiveness in treating the flu during the first stages of the disease process.

StephenB

[rwac]

"Lessons learned from the 2007-2008 cold and flu season: what worked and what was worthless", PMID 18488594:

Among products with clinical research, an oral 500 mg qd immunogenic fermentate (Epicor) reduced the risk and duration of cold and flu symptoms in subjects vaccinated for seasonal influenza.

StephenB

Stephen: Thanks for the Info!
That does explain my experience, although I skipped the flu shot this time.

I also just measured this: I'm taking about 12g /day of Diamond V XPC.
Not only does it help with sleep, and colds, but my Athlete's foot seems to be getting better as well.

Edited by rwac, 08 November 2008 - 06:10 PM.

[mross]

I've been on this for a month or so now(started 11/7/08) I'm up to 2.5 teaspoons. I am sleeping better, I second the vivid dreams. I did get sick over Thanksgiving. However the severity of my symptoms was less and the duration was much less. I would put the severity at about 75% of what I'm used to, and these things usually bother me for about two weeks, this time from start to no longer a bother was about a week. My energy levels are improved as well as my broncs' seem clearer. My white blood cell count was high it is now in the normal range. So far I am pleased.

[johnyq]

I've been taking this for 2 weeks now. I have found it much easier to wake up, not much else to note.


I packaged my 50 pound bag into vacuumed 2,3and5pound bags, if anyone wants some. I'll probably put them on ebay soon.

[Lufega]

Interesting thread. I've been looking into Epicor for sometime but this seems to be a better bargain. I doubt any supplement company would really advertise what the optimal dose of anything is. The same goes with Epicor. Imagine buying a bottle of 90 pill of something and having to take half the bottle each day to get maximum effect. Not realistic is it? For this purpose, it'll be better to buy the whole root or something. I think this is true with Hyaluronic acid, for example. This is the kind of supplement where MORE definitely is Better. I used it for a while at the recommended dose of 2 pills a day. One day I got fed up (for no real reason) and started popping them 10 pills at a time. I saw a difference in the appearance of my skin within days. I didn't buy it again because it didn't seem cost effective. Maybe when I'm older and better off..This is typically made from chicken coombs so i'll look into making my own in the future. BBQ chicken coombs anyone? LOL

Anyways..

I'm interested in the Diamond V for the immune enhancing properties. I haven't seen this mentioned here but I wonder the effect it will have in the Th1/Th2 balance. I seem to be dominant towards the Th2 (I have CFS of chronic Mono or whatever it's called these days. I may even have Lyme's [thanks Funk!]) and this seems like a cheap way to regulate this. I was also considering a plethora of other things like LDN, isoprinosine, pine cone extract, cat's claw, anamu, etc.. but I feel more convinced by this stuff and it's cheaper and easier to obtain!!!!!

[rwac]

I'm interested in the Diamond V for the immune enhancing properties. I haven't seen this mentioned here but I wonder the effect it will have in the Th1/Th2 balance. I seem to be dominant towards the Th2 (I have CFS of chronic Mono or whatever it's called these days. I may even have Lyme's [thanks Funk!]) and this seems like a cheap way to regulate this. I was also considering a plethora of other things like LDN, isoprinosine, pine cone extract, cat's claw, anamu, etc.. but I feel more convinced by this stuff and it's cheaper and easier to obtain!!!!!

Lufega,

I'm in sort of a similar situation as you, perhaps.
I have had mono, and possibly have Lyme.

That might explain why I got slight cold symptoms a couple of weeks after I started taking Diamond V.
Right now I have a bad cold, too.

I suspect my immune system is now fighting it.

It would be great if you tell us how you feel after trying this stuff out.