280 replies to this topic

[Lufega]

It would be great if you tell us how you feel after trying this stuff out.

Will do. I suspect, like with most things, you might get worse before you feel better so I'll be expecting to catch a thing or two in the process.

Is Ebay still the best place to buy it?

[rwac]

It would be great if you tell us how you feel after trying this stuff out.

Will do. I suspect, like with most things, you might get worse before you feel better so I'll be expecting to catch a thing or two in the process.

Is Ebay still the best place to buy it?

Yup, I got it from here
You should try offering him $20 (or less ...)

On the other hand, if you feel you need 50 lb of the stuff...
You can probably get a way better deal.

Oh yeah, and good luck!

Edited by rwac, 06 December 2008 - 08:53 PM.

[Mouser]

...I'm interested in the Diamond V for the immune enhancing properties. I haven't seen this mentioned here but I wonder the effect it will have in the Th1/Th2 balance. I seem to be dominant towards the Th2 (I have CFS of chronic Mono or whatever it's called these days. I may even have Lyme's [thanks Funk!]) and this seems like a cheap way to regulate this. I was also considering a plethora of other things like LDN, isoprinosine, pine cone extract, cat's claw, anamu, etc.. but I feel more convinced by this stuff and it's cheaper and easier to obtain!!!!!

From Vitamin Research Products website, for what it's worth: Website
"By Karen Sadowsky Kaufman, MS, CCN
In vitro studies of EpiCor indicated a shift in T helper (Th) cell populations. T helper cells are involved in cell-to-cell communication. They can ramp up the immune system and call in reinforcements. There are both Th1 cells and Th2 cells. Th1 cells are involved in inflammation whereas Th2 cells are less inflammatory. In vitro studies demonstrated a shift from Th1 to Th2 when T helper cells were exposed to EpiCor."

[Lufega]

In vitro studies demonstrated a shift from Th1 to Th2 when T helper cells were exposed to EpiCor."

That it worrisome. I'll try to look up the research article to get all the details. I hope it's not as simple as Epicor = ^Th2 activity.

[rwac]

In vitro studies demonstrated a shift from Th1 to Th2 when T helper cells were exposed to EpiCor."

That it worrisome. I'll try to look up the research article to get all the details. I hope it's not as simple as Epicor = ^Th2 activity.

Why would this be a bad thing ?

Edit: Ok, Now I see why this would be a bad thing.

Edited by rwac, 09 December 2008 - 12:38 AM.

[niner]

In vitro studies demonstrated a shift from Th1 to Th2 when T helper cells were exposed to EpiCor."

That it worrisome. I'll try to look up the research article to get all the details. I hope it's not as simple as Epicor = ^Th2 activity.

Why would this be a bad thing ?

Edit: Ok, Now I see why this would be a bad thing.

I don't see it yet... if Th1 are inflammatory, then wouldn't you (generally speaking) want fewer of them? It was mentioned above that Th2 are "less" inflammatory... I don't know exactly what's meant there but it sounds like a good thing. What am I missing?

[rwac]

In vitro studies demonstrated a shift from Th1 to Th2 when T helper cells were exposed to EpiCor."

That it worrisome. I'll try to look up the research article to get all the details. I hope it's not as simple as Epicor = ^Th2 activity.

Why would this be a bad thing ?

Edit: Ok, Now I see why this would be a bad thing.

I don't see it yet... if Th1 are inflammatory, then wouldn't you (generally speaking) want fewer of them? It was mentioned above that Th2 are "less" inflammatory... I don't know exactly what's meant there but it sounds like a good thing. What am I missing?

Apparently, increased Th2 (leads to decreased Th1) is associated with a bunch of different problems,
like allergies, yeast infections, etc

High Th2 cytokine levels may contribute to superinfections in atopic dermatitis

This page seems to suggest bad things for increased Th2 response.
Immune System Imbalance (TH2 Dominance)

The immune system in AIDS patients is biased towards Th2 responses.

Bad enough for you ?

[Mouser]

rwac, you beat me to it.

I don't see it yet... if Th1 are inflammatory, then wouldn't you (generally speaking) want fewer of them? It was mentioned above that Th2 are "less" inflammatory... I don't know exactly what's meant there but it sounds like a good thing. What am I missing?

I think there's a school of thought that says a shift to Th2 is involved in things as bothersome as seasonal allergies on down to things as awful as chronic fatigue, etc. I don't know if there's anything to actually back that hypothesis up, though.

Edited by Mouser, 09 December 2008 - 01:41 AM.

[Lufega]

I think there's a school of thought that says a shift to Th2 is involved in things as bothersome as seasonal allergies on down to things as awful as chronic fatigue, etc. I don't know if there's anything to actually back that hypothesis up, though.

From the little that I read it seems some bacteria/viruses associated with CFS produce proteins that mimic the activities of certain cytokines (i.e. IL-10) and this lowers the activity of Th1 and increases that of Th2. Th1 immune activity is needed to fight off things like bacteria/viruses/fungi. Being Th2 dominant makes you more responsive towards certain antigens and allergies and they say this is what causes food allergies/IBS, etc. So you see how these clever buggers manipulate our immune systems to increase their survival? The biggest problem with this is you will never get rid of a viral/bacterial/fungal infection becuase your immune system doesn't back you up. This is what leads the way to chronic infections and thus, chronic fatigue.

This is a Doctor talking about CFS http://www.nbc6.net/...382/detail.html She says the term "chronic fatigue syndrome" is a misnomer. It Should have been called Chronic neuroInflammatory disease and that an Immune disorder is at the base of all this (Th1/Th2 balance?). For the neuroinflammation idea, I started using Luteolin some months back. I mix it with colostrum and 98% Resveratrol and drink it every morning fasted. Don't know if it's helping or not.

You can actually have your Natural Killer cell function tested to determine if you're Th1 weak. I think it runs at $300 or so..

This is an article Krillin posted here before, it's pretty good reading.
http://www.ei-resour.....m-(th1th2)-/

There are some other things that can disrupt the Th1/Th2 in favor of Th2 like Mercury tox.

1: Altern Med Rev. 2003 Aug;8(3):223-46. Links

Th1/Th2 balance: the hypothesis, its limitations, and implications for health and disease.

One theory of immune regulation involves homeostasis between T-helper 1 (Th1) and T-helper 2 (Th2) activity. The Th1/Th2 hypothesis arose from 1986 research suggesting mouse T-helper cells expressed differing cytokine patterns. This hypothesis was adapted to human immunity, with Th1- and Th2-helper cells directing different immune response pathways. Th1 cells drive the type-1 pathway ("cellular immunity") to fight viruses and other intracellular pathogens, eliminate cancerous cells, and stimulate delayed-type hypersensitivity (DTH) skin reactions. Th2 cells drive the type-2 pathway ("humoral immunity") and up-regulate antibody production to fight extracellular organisms; type 2 dominance is credited with tolerance of xenografts and of the fetus during pregnancy. Overactivation of either pattern can cause disease, and either pathway can down-regulate the other. But the hypothesis has major inconsistencies; human cytokine activities rarely fall into exclusive pro-Th1 or -Th2 patterns. The non-helper regulatory T cells, or the antigen-presenting cells (APC), likely influence immunity in a manner comparable to Th1 and Th2 cells. Many diseases previously classified as Th1 or Th2 dominant fail to meet the set criteria. Experimentally, Th1 polarization is readily transformed to Th2 dominance through depletion of intracellular glutathione, and vice versa. Mercury depletes glutathione and polarizes toward Th2 dominance. Several nutrients and hormones measurably influence Th1/Th2 balance, including plant sterols/sterolins, melatonin, probiotics, progesterone, and the minerals selenium and zinc. The long-chain omega-3 fatty acids EPA (eicosapentaenoic acid) and DHA (docosahexaenoic acid) significantly benefit diverse inflammatory and autoimmune conditions without any specific Th1/Th2 effect. Th1/Th2-based immunotherapies, e.g., T-cell receptor (TCR) peptides and interleukin-4 (IL-4) injections, have produced mixed results to date.

PMID: 12946237 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE

Edited by Lufega, 09 December 2008 - 06:47 AM.

[Lufega]

http://membres.lycos.../cheneyII3.html

This page also has lots of good info on CFS, including this nifty diagram.

Edited by Lufega, 09 December 2008 - 06:50 AM.

[Mouser]

DP

Edited by Mouser, 10 December 2008 - 12:33 AM.

[Mouser]

Seems like this is all pretty speculative or at least not accepted main stream. Still, on the surface it sounds like an interesting way to account for all the food allergies and CFS type issues from which so many suffer.

[rwac]

Even more interesting, Epicor seems to have an (expensive!) cousin: Avemar

Avemar is wheat germ fermentate, and is recommended for cancer patients.

Google for avemar+cancer

[Lufega]

I've been using Diamond V XPC now for about 10 days. It has a taste between Jamaican ginger soda with a little malt flavoring but it's not bad at all. One thing I noticed first hand, everyone around me was dropping sick the last week but I was totally spared. I also just finished a kilo of colostrum so maybe that's why.

So far, I've noticed more vivid dreams like others mentioned before and I seem to have better sleep quality and wake up feeling rested. This is something I was having problems with. I took 1 pound of the diamond and mixed it with the leftover colostrum, luteolin and 98% resveratrol and I get such a cool buzz from it stuff!

[Snoggeh]

If you really love the stuff you could try :



http://www.duboisdis...;showprevnext=1



I'd keep it in a plastic garbage can with a tight fitting lid - rat shit in it might not be immediatly obvious.

[keflex]

In vitro studies demonstrated a shift from Th1 to Th2 when T helper cells were exposed to EpiCor."

That it worrisome. I'll try to look up the research article to get all the details. I hope it's not as simple as Epicor = ^Th2 activity.

Why would this be a bad thing ?

Edit: Ok, Now I see why this would be a bad thing.

I don't see it yet... if Th1 are inflammatory, then wouldn't you (generally speaking) want fewer of them? It was mentioned above that Th2 are "less" inflammatory... I don't know exactly what's meant there but it sounds like a good thing. What am I missing?

Interestingly enough, wouldn't that be counter-indicated by the effects that some of the (admittedly anecdotal) evidence that others have been experiencing?

[rwac]

In vitro studies demonstrated a shift from Th1 to Th2 when T helper cells were exposed to EpiCor."

That it worrisome. I'll try to look up the research article to get all the details. I hope it's not as simple as Epicor = ^Th2 activity.

Why would this be a bad thing ?

Edit: Ok, Now I see why this would be a bad thing.

I don't see it yet... if Th1 are inflammatory, then wouldn't you (generally speaking) want fewer of them? It was mentioned above that Th2 are "less" inflammatory... I don't know exactly what's meant there but it sounds like a good thing. What am I missing?

Interestingly enough, wouldn't that be counter-indicated by the effects that some of the (admittedly anecdotal) evidence that others have been experiencing?

Which effects are you talking about specifically ?

I've had a cold, and my allergies have flared a bit at different times.
It probably has something to do with Diamond V (or the olive leaf, or the echinacea)

I think Diamond V is doing more that simply moving the immune response towards Th1 or Th2

[ortcloud]

I would like to get to the bottom of this. I assumed that it was shifting from a TH2 dominant state over towards TH1.
Which would be a good thing as most people are TH2 dominant and if you shift them over enough you can get them
neutral.
Anyway, I assumed it was shifting away from th2 because they claim that many are getting over their allergies when
taking it. So that would be a shift away from a hyperallergic th2 state.


So I agree, there must be something else happening with this stuff or they have some inaccurate data.

[keflex]

Which effects are you talking about specifically ?

I've had a cold, and my allergies have flared a bit at different times.
It probably has something to do with Diamond V (or the olive leaf, or the echinacea)

I think Diamond V is doing more that simply moving the immune response towards Th1 or Th2

The (admittedly limited) experiences of some in a reduction of allergies, increase in smell sensitivity (which, I'm assuming to be related to a reduction in nasal inflammation), viral outbreaks, acne, etc.

Maybe I'm reading more into this thread than what's really been posted, but it doesn't seem like this is simply switching response from Th1 to Th2.

[ap00]

Are people still using this? Does it still seem effective? Is there any consensus on where to get it?

[rwac]

Are people still using this? Does it still seem effective? Is there any consensus on where to get it?

Well, I'm still using it. It seems effective to me. Also, the price is right.
The best place is undoubtedly ebay, unless you want to buy 50 pounds of it.

[tintinet]

Are people still using this? Does it still seem effective? Is there any consensus on where to get it?

Well, I'm still using it. It seems effective to me. Also, the price is right.
The best place is undoubtedly ebay, unless you want to buy 50 pounds of it.

1+

[ap00]

Has anyone considered brewing some kind of drink with this?

[Mouser]

Ordering 1 lb. of XPC Green from ebay. Will try 1 or 2 tsp per day hopefully to improve sleep, outdoor and indoor allergies, and overall energy. Not expecting much, but updates to come...

[rwac]

Has anyone considered brewing some kind of drink with this?

I believe Duke adds it to this oatmeal or something like that.

Ordering 1 lb. of XPC Green from ebay. Will try 1 or 2 tsp per day hopefully to improve sleep, outdoor and indoor allergies, and overall energy. Not expecting much, but updates to come...

Good luck.

Edited by rwac, 09 February 2009 - 05:08 PM.

[tintinet]

Ya. I'm too lazy to brew it. I just toss some in my breakfast smoothie.

[Mouser]

Got it today. First impression: it doesn't taste bad at all. A little dry to take on its own, but throw it on some yogurt or in oatmeal and it'll be good.

[flobbest]

Hi all, I'm new to the board and have been following this thread. I'm most interested in the improved sleep experienced by several posters, and a bit concerend about the th1/th2 discussions. I haven't tried the stuff yet but found an interesting read on the subject by Dr. David Williams www.kirks-graphics.com/pdf/eat-like-a-horse.pdf. I don't know anything about the man or his work nor am I endorsing either, I just found it on google fyi. I also have not idea why this type turned green. Take care.....Frank.

[Mouser]

flobbest, I've noticed no effects in the 2 days I've taken it. The only things I notice are that I like the taste, and my mouth or lips seem to itch after I take it - not enough to conclude its an allergy though.

About sleep... when people report they have more vivd dreams (from any substance) I think it's incorrect to conclude they are having better sleep. If dreams are better remembered it could be that you're having less slow wave sleep, and therefore worse sleep. As someone who has a lot of trouble with daytime mental fatigue and fragmented nighttime sleep, I'm always hoping for something that helps. I'll be sure to report any effects in this area. But I'm not holding my breath.

One final thing, isn't one of the purported benefits of brewer's yeast (and by extension Diamond V) vitamin B-21? B12 supplementation is frequently recommended to improve fatigue or sleep. So, it might be worth comparing this product to B12 (sublingual) to see which is actually working, if any. In my case, although my B12 level was low, supplementation did not help with fatigue.

[flobbest]

flobbest, I've noticed no effects in the 2 days I've taken it. The only things I notice are that I like the taste, and my mouth or lips seem to itch after I take it - not enough to conclude its an allergy though.

About sleep... when people report they have more vivd dreams (from any substance) I think it's incorrect to conclude they are having better sleep. If dreams are better remembered it could be that you're having less slow wave sleep, and therefore worse sleep. As someone who has a lot of trouble with daytime mental fatigue and fragmented nighttime sleep, I'm always hoping for something that helps. I'll be sure to report any effects in this area. But I'm not holding my breath.

One final thing, isn't one of the purported benefits of brewer's yeast (and by extension Diamond V) vitamin B-21? B12 supplementation is frequently recommended to improve fatigue or sleep. So, it might be worth comparing this product to B12 (sublingual) to see which is actually working, if any. In my case, although my B12 level was low, supplementation did not help with fatigue.