121 replies to this topic

[Live Forever]

I have been doing IF for about 2 weeks now, and it has been a lot easier than I thought. My original plan was to do a regular day on/day off rotation, but I have been experimenting with different plans for a few days at a time. The 24 hours on/24 hours off (where I set my time to start/finish at 7pm) was definitely the easiest to do, but I don't know if the benefits are as much as sleeping in between. (I say this mainly because you end up eating a lot basically right before you go to bed on the day I start eating at 7, which I can't imagine is very healthy) I think I am going to try to stay with the day on/day off method for as long as possible. I did do back to back days of eating one time, but I don't think that is a huge deal.

The biggest thing I found is that I don't have nearly the stamina for running (something I do a lot) on the days that I fast. That either has to be a light running day or an off day of running, whereas on the eating days I feel like I have an extra boost of energy and can run further than I normally do, which is nice. (not sure if that means my muscles are storing more energy when I eat or if it is just a mental thing or what)

[Live Forever]

Also, I had a question for anyone:
What do you think that is the maximum amount of intake that could still be considered "fasting"? I have been confining myself to water only (and occasionally a cup of tea) on the fasting days, but would drinking some juice still count as "fasting"...and if so, then would taking supplements be considered "fasting", and if so, then what is the cutoff for still considering yourself to be "fasting"?

Just something I was pondering. I am not trying to fudge around with the definition of the word or anything.

[william7]

would drinking some juice still count as "fasting"

It's still considered a modified fast by some, but not as good as the classic water fast. Notice what the author of Total Wellness said about juice fasting. http://www.imminst.o...=0.

[Shepard]

The biggest thing I found is that I don't have nearly the stamina for running (something I do a lot) on the days that I fast. That either has to be a light running day or an off day of running, whereas on the eating days I feel like I have an extra boost of energy and can run further than I normally do, which is nice. (not sure if that means my muscles are storing more energy when I eat or if it is just a mental thing or what)

This is pretty much standard for everyone so far that I've seen. Anything that really goes after glycogen stores seems to suffer during the fasting period.

I have been confining myself to water only (and occasionally a cup of tea) on the fasting days, but would drinking some juice still count as "fasting"...and if so, then would taking supplements be considered "fasting", and if so, then what is the cutoff for still considering yourself to be "fasting"?

I guess it depends on your stance on everything. A good bit of the rodent effects seem to tie back into the periodic caloric deprivation. Also, if you buy into hormesis playing a role, any significant supplementation (depending on what it is) could be counterproductive.

[resveratrol]

I guess it depends on your stance on everything. A good bit of the rodent effects seem to tie back into the periodic caloric deprivation. Also, if you buy into hormesis playing a role, any significant supplementation (depending on what it is) could be counterproductive.

My understanding was that you just want to ensure it's zero calories when you're fasting. So pop a multivitamin, but hold off on things like fish oil pills and vitamins that have cellulose and other filler ingredients.

[niner]

I guess it depends on your stance on everything. A good bit of the rodent effects seem to tie back into the periodic caloric deprivation. Also, if you buy into hormesis playing a role, any significant supplementation (depending on what it is) could be counterproductive.

My understanding was that you just want to ensure it's zero calories when you're fasting. So pop a multivitamin, but hold off on things like fish oil pills and vitamins that have cellulose and other filler ingredients.

I don't know why you'd need to have absolutely zero calories. If CR can flip the genetic switches on 70% calories, then it seems like the intermittent fasting wouldn't need to be all that severe. There are some supplements that I don't like to take on an empty stomach, but other than that I don't think I'd worry about it. BTW, I don't see how any form of CR, whether constant or intermittent, could be anything but hormetic. If it's SIRT1 mediated, then maybe nicotinamide would mess with it, but other than cheeseburgers, I don't really see how supplements would be a problem.

[Shepard]

I don't know why you'd need to have absolutely zero calories.  If CR can flip the genetic switches on 70% calories, then it seems like the intermittent fasting wouldn't need to be all that severe.

This ties back in with if there is something special regarding IF or if the benefits are merely due to a mild caloric restriction.

BTW, I don't see how any form of CR, whether constant or intermittent, could be anything but hormetic.  If it's SIRT1 mediated, then maybe nicotinamide would mess with it, but other than cheeseburgers, I don't really see how supplements would be a problem.

There are more hormetic pathways than the HDACs, and I wouldn't bet heavily on them being the only ones involved in the benefits.

[Live Forever]

Ok, I have a question that is semi related to fasting, but not really.

I have read a couple things in the past day or 2 about hyponatremia and how it is common among marathon runners. It is basically from replacing the fluids you lose with water and not replacing the salts you lose. (it can even lead to death in extreme cases, but mainly is just not a healthy position for your body to be in overall) I found a couple of other places that said that high water intake during fasting periods (without replacing salts) can also lead to this.

Well, since I am both running a lot and fasting, and I also have been drinking quite a bit of water (and some tea) during the fasting days to help keep my stomach full, is it something I should be worried about, or am I being a hypochondriac?

I suppose I could take an occasional salt tablet or take a pinch of salt every now and again (or put the pinch in the glass of water I am drinking) if I am worried about it...



From http://walking.about...water011204.htm

Don't start drinking an extra gallon of water a day - that can kill you, especially if you are fasting or eating very little. Water taken in must be in balance with body salt - electrolytes. The body needs to maintain salt balance or risk hyponatremia with heart attack and even death. Drinking too much water dilutes the salt in your blood and tissues - and can kill you. Healthy athletes have died from drinking too much plain water and not replacing salt. Dieters should not plunge into drinking gallons of water a day in hopes of burning a few more calories. Drink an extra few glasses, yes. But a gallon is too much.

(and this is for non fasters, non runners)

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Hyponatremia

[Shepard]

Things like this (hypnoatremia, rhabdomyolysis) that are caused by exercise seem to happen in people who push their body further than it wants to go. I'm not going to say don't worry about it, but if you're exercising alone for the sake of exercise (not to reach some short-term goal), your risks should be lessened. And, you can always have one those low-cal electrolyte drinks right before and after running.

[Live Forever]

Yeah, you are right. I tend to worry about things too much sometimes, haha.

[Mind]

Just another article about the benfits of fasting

[Live Forever]

Just another article about the benfits of fasting

Only one day a month? What a bunch of wussies.

(kidding of course!)

[InquilineKea]

Does anyone know whether intermittent fasting is better for high GI foods or low GI foods?

After all, intermittent fasting will naturally bring a glucose spike during your "binge" day.

Here's something I posted about this somewhere else:
http://www.physicsfo...ad.php?t=177277

[niner]

Does anyone know whether intermittent fasting is better for high GI foods or low GI foods?

After all, intermittent fasting will naturally bring a glucose spike during your "binge" day.

The benefits of intermittent fasting are separate from glucose issues. Intermittent fasting is thought to bring about a hormetic response, possibly mediated by SIRT1. On the "binge" day, the amount of a glucose spike you get will be determined by the glycemic load of your diet. Obviously, the lower the better, since the amount of protein glycation that occurs is proportional to the area under the glucose-time curve. What ultimately counts in terms of glycation will be the combined area under the glucose time curve for both the fasting and fed days, taken in total. Generally speaking low GI foods (or more importantly low glycemic load foods) are better than high GI foods, whether you are doing IF or not. I take glycation inhibitors before I eat, and try to eat low GI foods. Sometimes I even succeed at that goal, but at least I have the glycation inhibitors.

[dehbleh]

Hey I recently started intermittent fasting along with CR (on my eating days) and something very significant has occured... My Hypoglycemia has all but dissappeared.
I'm serious, before I couldn't go 3 hours without eating something and now I can literally go for a day without becoming violent, irrational psychopath.

Some other things to note:
* My pot belly has dissappeared
* No longer experiencing brain fog
* Don't feel tired after eating
* Saving money lots of money in groceries
* Depression is considerably less these days

I had no idea that depriving the body of what I "thought" was healthy food could be so beneficial. Now when I look back to before, I was forcing my body to eat 2x as much as it required. This is really exciting stuff.

[Live Forever]

Quick question: tea doesn't have any calories (as long as you don't put anything in it), correct? Green tea specifically.

[Shepard]

I don't know if it's completely calorie free, but it's practically Calorie free.

[omega_rage]

Is it ok to have a protein shake say mixed with soy or juice on a fast? I find they greatly satisfy my appetite so fasting would be easy on them.

If this doesn't count as a fast than what about an effective detox/cleanse diet?

[Shepard]

Sure it's okay. But it's not a fast.

[EmbraceUnity]

Considering some received a significant boost from one fast per month, and there are studies indicating that one meal per day has similar benefits, I am only fasting once per week now (for a full 24 hours). On my eating days, I only eat 1 or 2 meals.

I do notice that if I have 2 meals per day for a few days in a row I start to feel sick. Then my girlfriend will do the whole, "it's X o'clock, time to eat...." ugghhasdgasdg yuck.

[Alpha-Frequency]

I fast every sunday and it has been the best addition (or ommission) to my diet. Ever.

[Live Forever]

Should I skip vitamins (specifically a multivitamin) on fasting days?

...and if so should I double up on the non-fasting days?

[EmbraceUnity]

Should I skip vitamins (specifically a multivitamin) on fasting days?

...and if so should I double up on the non-fasting days?

According to the logic of hormesis, if that is indeed what is going on with IF and interval training, having no vitamins every once in awhile would also be a good thing. It is certainly cheaper. I fast once per week still, usually on the weekend, and on that day, I have no supplements. Then, one one eating day per week I also abstain from supplements. On regular days I do not double up, since most of the dosages are pretty high anyways. If hormesis should work for anything, it would be antioxidants... and considering you shouldnt take most antioxidants on an empty stomach, that works out well.

[Bodhi]

As far as working out while fasting, my understanding is that it depends if the exercise is aerobic or anaerobic, or a combination but a general rule of thumb is that it's good to exercise when in a fasting state. You would burn more fat and less glycogen theoretically. It also depends of course what your goals are, for basic aerobic heart health you can do it anytime. To burn fat you are probably best off to exercise when fasting. If you are trying to gain lean muscle mass, then you are probably best exercising at the end of a fast so that your first meal when you break the fast is a post workout meal, since theoretically you are better able to utilize a meal after a workout. In my experience it works doubly well after a short (18 hour) fast.

Edited by Bodhi, 07 February 2009 - 08:17 PM.

[JLL]

A typical day of intermittent fasting

[Live Forever]

A typical day of intermittent fasting

I like his cycle of:

Day 1:
8:00 AM - Wake up
8:15 - drink some water, get to work
8.45 AM - A cup of coffee
10:00 AM - 2:00 PM - Sip on water, drink green tea
2:00 PM - Another cup of coffee
4:15 PM - 5.30 PM Get off work, go to the gym
6:00 PM - Break the fast, eat a warm meal
8:00 PM - Eat some dark chocolate
9:30 PM - Make a smoothie

Day 2:
01:00 AM - Go to bed
9:00 AM - Wake up
9:15 AM - Drink rest of the smoothie from yesterday, get to classes
10:00 AM - A cup of coffee
12:00 PM - A warm meal
2:00 PM - Another cup of coffee
5:00 PM - A second warm meal
6:00 PM - End the eating period with some dark chocolate
7:00 PM - 10:00 PM - Several cups of green tea
01:00 AM - Go to bed

Then repeat from beginning


I should say that since my last post in this thread (about a year ago now I guess); I stayed on basically the same thing he was doing (different foods, but a 24/24) for several months before scaling back to only fasting 2 days a week (5 eating days, 2 fasting days) because my weight was getting too low, and then going to 1 24 hour period a week for awhile before going back to 2 days a week. Any version of this, though, is way easy. (Easier than the 16/32 version where you fast from waking up to going to sleep then eat from waking up to going to sleep, etc. and I suspect MUCH easier than most forms of CR.)

[Sillewater]

Not sure if this study was posted before but here it goes:

Rejuvenation Res. 2008 Jun;11(3):621-9.
Effect of every other day feeding on mitochondrial free radical production and oxidative stress in mouse liver.
Caro P, Gómez J, López-Torres M, Sánchez I, Naudi A, Portero-Otín M, Pamplona R, Barja G.

Department of Animal Physiology-II, Complutense University, Madrid, Spain.
Abstract
It is known that dietary restriction (DR) increases maximum longevity in rodents, but the mechanisms involved remain unknown. Among the possible mechanisms, several lines of evidence support the idea that decreases in mitochondrial oxidative stress and in insulin signaling are involved but it is not known if they are interconnected. It has been reported that when C57BL/6 mice are maintained on an every other day (EOD) feeding their overall food intake is only slightly decreased and plasma insulin-like growth factor (IGF)-1 is even somewhat increased. In spite of this, their maximum longevity is increased, analogously to what occurs in classic DR. Thus, this model dissociates the increase in longevity from the decrease in IGF-1 observed in classic DR. Based on these facts, we have studied the effect of EOD DR on the rate of mitochondrial reactive oxygen species (ROS) production, oxygen consumption, and the percent free radical leak (FRL) of well-coupled liver mitochondria, the marker of mtDNA oxidative damage 8-oxo-7,8-dihydro-2'deoxyguanosine (8-oxodG), the content of complexes I to IV of the respiratory chain, the apoptosis inducing factor (AIF), PGC1-alpha, UCP2, five different markers of oxidative damage to proteins and the full fatty acid composition on C57BL/6 mice liver. It was found that EOD DR decreased ROS production in complex I but not in complex III without changes in oxygen consumption. As a result, FRL was decreased in complex I. Oxidative damage to mtDNA (8-oxodG) and protein oxidation, glycoxidation and lipoxidation were also lower in the EOD restricted group in comparison with the control one while the degree of fatty acid unsaturation was held constant. The EOD group also showed decreases in AIF, PGC1-alpha, and UCP2. These results support the possibility that EOD DR increases maximum life span at least in part through decreases in mitochondrial oxidative stress which are independent from insulin/IGF-1-like signaling.

PMID: 18593280 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

I don't have access, pdf would be appreciated.

[Skötkonung]

Not sure if this study was posted before but here it goes:

Rejuvenation Res. 2008 Jun;11(3):621-9.
Effect of every other day feeding on mitochondrial free radical production and oxidative stress in mouse liver.
Caro P, Gómez J, López-Torres M, Sánchez I, Naudi A, Portero-Otín M, Pamplona R, Barja G.

Department of Animal Physiology-II, Complutense University, Madrid, Spain.
Abstract
It is known that dietary restriction (DR) increases maximum longevity in rodents, but the mechanisms involved remain unknown. Among the possible mechanisms, several lines of evidence support the idea that decreases in mitochondrial oxidative stress and in insulin signaling are involved but it is not known if they are interconnected. It has been reported that when C57BL/6 mice are maintained on an every other day (EOD) feeding their overall food intake is only slightly decreased and plasma insulin-like growth factor (IGF)-1 is even somewhat increased. In spite of this, their maximum longevity is increased, analogously to what occurs in classic DR. Thus, this model dissociates the increase in longevity from the decrease in IGF-1 observed in classic DR. Based on these facts, we have studied the effect of EOD DR on the rate of mitochondrial reactive oxygen species (ROS) production, oxygen consumption, and the percent free radical leak (FRL) of well-coupled liver mitochondria, the marker of mtDNA oxidative damage 8-oxo-7,8-dihydro-2'deoxyguanosine (8-oxodG), the content of complexes I to IV of the respiratory chain, the apoptosis inducing factor (AIF), PGC1-alpha, UCP2, five different markers of oxidative damage to proteins and the full fatty acid composition on C57BL/6 mice liver. It was found that EOD DR decreased ROS production in complex I but not in complex III without changes in oxygen consumption. As a result, FRL was decreased in complex I. Oxidative damage to mtDNA (8-oxodG) and protein oxidation, glycoxidation and lipoxidation were also lower in the EOD restricted group in comparison with the control one while the degree of fatty acid unsaturation was held constant. The EOD group also showed decreases in AIF, PGC1-alpha, and UCP2. These results support the possibility that EOD DR increases maximum life span at least in part through decreases in mitochondrial oxidative stress which are independent from insulin/IGF-1-like signaling.

PMID: 18593280 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

I don't have access, pdf would be appreciated.

Since we're talking about mice liver and autophagy, we should also discuss duration:

The protection of rat liver autophagic proteolysis from the age-related decline co-varies with the duration of anti-ageing food restriction.

I've heard that instead of weekly fasts, it is most beneficial to do a once yearly 7-day fast.
Dr. Thomas Seyfried discusses it in the audio clip on this page.

[JLL]

Here's my review of the data on intermittent fasting and life extension.

[hypnotoad]

I've heard that instead of weekly fasts, it is most beneficial to do a once yearly 7-day fast.
Dr. Thomas Seyfried discusses it in the audio clip on this page.

I've been thinking about this too.. Mainly to dip into an autophagic state for an extended period of time. I'm thinking of starting out at 3 days, then revert back to my normal 18/6 routine. Will do a water fast, since I think juice fasting defeats the whole point when you start introducing fructose and whatnot into the equation. Can't see going past 7 days ever though.

Anyone here do extended fasting? Googling around to various forums on fasting and dedicated sites reveals that most of the stuff is tied to religious/new-age themes that aren't really of any interest to me. My goal is pure autophagy for its own sake. Burning a few lbs of fat wouldn't hurt either I guess.

If anyone here HAS done it.. Please share... How long was it? Did you take supplements along the way? What were your experiences/results?

Did you take electrolytes/minerals for cardiac stability? I just realized that many of my LEF supps are in soybean oil (not happy about that - I eat Paleo and PUFA soybean oil is huge no-no) so that plus my usual 6-8 fish oil capsules might be enough fat calories to thwart autophagy perhaps? Any supps that I should avoid outright on extended fasting or any supps that will enhance the process?

Edited by hypnotoad, 03 July 2010 - 11:21 AM.