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Should imminst try to save the world's oldest man?


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#1 eternaltraveler

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 04:33 PM


CI might be a better bet than alcor. They're cheaper, and i doubt super centenarians can get much of a deal on life insurance :))

#2 eternaltraveler

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 04:34 PM

Instead, he drinks milk every day and takes walks on his own in the area around his house, where he lives with his son.

If you believe a few groups/websites out there in the wilds of the internet, milk is the most wicked deadly poison known to man. Surprising this guy lasted so long. He must be superman.


the thing super centenarians seem to have in common is genetics and luck.

#3 Mind

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 04:41 PM

I wonder if we can get some support from the super centenarian research foundation to send these things to all super centenarians.


I have thought about that at times, but it does have the potential of generating "false promises" and bad PR. Even though Imminst does not sell snake oil or make any pormises and is very rational about the future, perception rules, and if we were seen as offering some frail 110 year-old some sort of "lifeline" it might draw negative reactions. Kind-of similar to the Ted Williams affair at Alcor. The intention's of Ted's son were probably honorable and born of love for his father, yet the majority of people went crazy about it. From my perspective, I saw nothing wrong with it, and it was none of my business. The general public (and other family members of Ted W.) felt threatened for some strange reason.

#4 eternaltraveler

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 04:56 PM

I have thought about that at times, but it does have the potential of generating "false promises" and bad PR. Even though Imminst does not sell snake oil or make any pormises and is very rational about the future, perception rules, and if we were seen as offering some frail 110 year-old some sort of "lifeline" it might draw negative reactions. Kind-of similar to the Ted Williams affair at Alcor. The intention's of Ted's son were probably honorable and born of love for his father, yet the majority of people went crazy about it. From my perspective, I saw nothing wrong with it, and it was none of my business. The general public (and other family members of Ted W.) felt threatened for some strange reason.


you have a point as it might seem as though we are hocking snake oil.

However I just had a brain storm.

Imminst doesn't have enough money to really fund any kind of research or a grad student. We could help a few students out with books etc.

However, we could fund one cryonics contract at CI for a super centenarian. If instead of seeming to sell them something, what if we out right give them something?

A chance to save someone who has lived in 3 centuries. How's that for PR?

It would be news worthy, it would put imminst in the spotlight

The super centenarian we save would go through all the bells and whistles before they were legally dead, and we would get their family on board.

How do people feel about that idea?

#5 veritasbh

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 05:16 PM

you have a point as it might seem as though we are hocking snake oil.
However I just had a brain storm.
Imminst doesn't have enough money to really fund any kind of research or a grad student.  We could help a few students out with books etc.
However, we could fund one cryonics contract at CI for a super centenarian.  If instead of seeming to sell them something, what if we out right give them something?
A chance to save someone who has lived in 3 centuries.  How's that for PR?
It would be news worthy, it would put imminst in the spotlight
The super centenarian we save would go through all the bells and whistles before they were legally dead, and we would get their family on board.
How do people feel about that idea?


good idea, but doubt any group could come close to the funds needed...

Alcor prices:

Minimum Suspension Funding:
$150,000.00 Whole Body Suspension ($65,000 to the Patient Care Trust, $70,000 for cryonic suspension, $15,000.00 to the CMS Fund).
$ 80,000.00 Neurosuspension ($25,000 to the Patient Care Trust, $40,000 for cryonic suspension, $15,000.00 to the CMS Fund).

Surcharges:
$ 15,000.00 Surcharge for Members residing in the United Kingdom.
$ 25,000.00 Surcharge for Members outside the U.S., Canada, and the United Kingdom.
$ 25,000.00 Surcharge for last minute, non-member suspensions.

#6 eternaltraveler

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 05:22 PM

you have a point as it might seem as though we are hocking snake oil.
However I just had a brain storm.
Imminst doesn't have enough money to really fund any kind of research or a grad student.  We could help a few students out with books etc.
However, we could fund one cryonics contract at CI for a super centenarian.  If instead of seeming to sell them something, what if we out right give them something?
A chance to save someone who has lived in 3 centuries.  How's that for PR?
It would be news worthy, it would put imminst in the spotlight
The super centenarian we save would go through all the bells and whistles before they were legally dead, and we would get their family on board.
How do people feel about that idea?


good idea, but doubt any group could come close to the funds needed...

Alcor prices:

Minimum Suspension Funding:
$150,000.00 Whole Body Suspension ($65,000 to the Patient Care Trust, $70,000 for cryonic suspension, $15,000.00 to the CMS Fund).
$ 80,000.00 Neurosuspension ($25,000 to the Patient Care Trust, $40,000 for cryonic suspension, $15,000.00 to the CMS Fund).

Surcharges:
$ 15,000.00 Surcharge for Members residing in the United Kingdom.
$ 25,000.00 Surcharge for Members outside the U.S., Canada, and the United Kingdom.
$ 25,000.00 Surcharge for last minute, non-member suspensions.


CI funding is 28K. Imminst has more than enough for CI.

#7 Mind

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 05:26 PM

It is an interesting publicity angle Elrond. I'll keep that one in my memory banks.

#8 eternaltraveler

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 05:37 PM

It is an interesting publicity angle Elrond. I'll keep that one in my memory banks.


headlines

"Immortality Institute preserves world's Oldest man for the future"

"worlds oldest man may be a permanent position"

"Cryonics for worlds oldest man"

"Institute devoted to ending involuntary death triess to save worlds oldest man"



If we spend the time and actually get family/friends on board before hand, it could be great publicity for imminst and cryonics. Would be a good soap box for us, and for cryonics to talk about modern cryonics advances (rabbit kidney stuff, ease in perfusing brain tissue).

#9 Neurosail

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 05:42 PM

If this is done right, it could increase the number of full members also.

In 1992 Alcor did this with Omni Magazine and there was a growth spur for members who didn't win (like me!)

Maybe it could be a joint prize of ImmInst, CI or Alcor, Mprize, Lifeboat, Life Extension Magazine, etc. to help keep the cost down and to publicize all the groups.

The winner could be announced at the ImmInst Conference in 2008/9...

#10 Liquidus

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 05:52 PM

I think that having a centurion who's deemed the 'oldest' living human would be a fine ambassador the cryonics movement. I think it speaks volumes to the ultimate goal. If the oldest man is being endorsed by a bleeding edge movement like cryonics, it could go a long way in showing the average joe (between 19-69 YO) that there's more hope for them then they could have ever dreamed of, especially if a 112 year old man has hope.

#11 eternaltraveler

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 05:52 PM

Maybe it could be a joint prize of ImmInst, CI or Alcor, Mprize, Lifeboat, Life Extension Magazine, etc. to help keep the cost down and to publicize all the groups.


maybe. But it wouldn't be terrible for imminst to hog some publicity of it's own for a change :)) (well obviously together with the cryonics provider)

#12 eternaltraveler

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 05:53 PM

of course the fact he's in japan might be troublesome.

where's the world's oldest woman (ie person)?

#13 eternaltraveler

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 05:59 PM

Edna parker at 114 is the oldest living person and lives in Indiana.

Convenient.

#14 Athan

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 07:14 PM

Sounds like a good idea to me, it seems like we could use some publicity outside of the usual transhumanist channels.

Would have to be really careful though, if it got messed up it could go downhill quickly...

#15 Neurosail

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 07:15 PM

More information about Edna Parker:

Foxnews

Guardian

Although she never drank alcohol or tried tobacco and led an active life, Parker offered no tips Thursday for living a long life. Her only advice to those gathered was: "More education.''

She might be open to the idea of cryonics/ life extension from an education point of view.

The one of the goals of ImmInst is to educate the public about life extension.

#16 bgwowk

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 08:35 PM

Why not instead help someone who really wants cryonics, has sought cryonics, understands cryonics, and has asked for help?

http://www.imminst.o...&f=63&s=&t=7306

http://2dot0.org/index2.html

http://www.2dot0.org/

#17 eternaltraveler

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 08:44 PM

Why not instead help someone who really wants cryonics, has sought cryonics, understands cryonics, and has asked for help?

http://www.imminst.o...&f=63&s=&t=7306

http://2dot0.org/index2.html

http://www.2dot0.org/


I also thought about that. From what I've read he doesn't seem to be interested in CI, and imminst couldn't come close to paying for any of alcor's options.

How much more time does he have? Last I heard it was in the ten year ball park?

The good thing (or rather very bad thing, but good for publicity) about funding the world's oldest person is that the suspension would probably happen soon. Supercentenarians have a less than 50% chance of living out another year. Such publicity would therefore happen soon. Publicity like this is likely to be beneficial to Mark in his own quest.

#18 Shannon Vyff

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 09:53 PM

Well I'll send a donation to Mark and his 2.0 project--but I wonder why he has not thought of CI? It would be a lot easier for him to do.

On the World's Oldest-- it should go to the oldest, not male or female-- but also they would have to agree. A CI membership is a perfect example-- it would bring a lot of media attention to ImmInst, and cryonics (and Mark's mission could be highlighted for newcomers). I think it is a wonderful idea to present a prize, and would help with it---coordination and such that would be needed.

#19 Liquidus

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 11:44 PM

Why not instead help someone who really wants cryonics, has sought cryonics, understands cryonics, and has asked for help?

http://www.imminst.o...&f=63&s=&t=7306

http://2dot0.org/index2.html

http://www.2dot0.org/


Wow, I went to that website, completely not knowing anything about this guy or any of the facts. Turns out he lives in the exact same city as I do, and is exactly the same age as me, really strikes home for me.

#20 Shannon Vyff

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 12:34 AM

I'd help in being a spokesperson for ImmInst, I already do that a bit for Cryonics.

I'd guess that a letter could be sent, in the person's language--and contact numbers given. Or, someone who speaks the language could contact by phone. When someone wants to do it, then the details of how could be set up. It would be bad if the next oldest after the first was preserved, would want the same thing.

The man in Japan did say he wanted to live forever, and this could be seen as the only chance for it. Not a certainty, but the best possibility he would have.

If one turned it down, we could try the next--until someone wanted to do it. The woman in India perhaps, or the next...

(You could put the 'help Mark', with his 2.0 site on the front page of ImmInst in my spot.)

#21 Ghostrider

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 01:15 AM

It is an interesting publicity angle Elrond. I'll keep that one in my memory banks.


headlines

"Immortality Institute preserves world's Oldest man for the future"

"worlds oldest man may be a permanent position"

"Cryonics for worlds oldest man"

"Institute devoted to ending involuntary death triess to save worlds oldest man"



If we spend the time and actually get family/friends on board before hand, it could be great publicity for imminst and cryonics. Would be a good soap box for us, and for cryonics to talk about modern cryonics advances (rabbit kidney stuff, ease in perfusing brain tissue).


These do sound good and I really like the idea of saving people. But instead of necessarily going for the oldest, why not try to save the *best*?

"Institute devoted to ending involuntary death tries to save worlds oldest man" vs.
"Institute devoted to ending involuntary death tries to save Nobel Prize winner"

#22 Ghostrider

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 01:17 AM

Instead, he drinks milk every day and takes walks on his own in the area around his house, where he lives with his son.

If you believe a few groups/websites out there in the wilds of the internet, milk is the most wicked deadly poison known to man. Surprising this guy lasted so long. He must be superman.


the thing super centenarians seem to have in common is genetics and luck.


Uhm, that's new to me...milk bad, thought it did a body good?

#23 DJS

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 01:29 AM

Me likey.

Of course, the individual in question must be open to futurist memetics, which it seems might be the case in this instance.

The PR aspect of preserving the "world's oldest man" is THE major aspect of this proposal, all with the aim of creating more exposure for us, particularly in the relatively unexplored "asian market place of ideas".

One of the big problems I could see, and which Elrond alluded to - how does one get cryo-preserved by an American cryonics company when they live in Japan? Unforunately, the logistics may not work on this one, though perhaps there are some ingenious options available.

#24 eternaltraveler

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 01:39 AM

One of the big problems I could see, and which Elrond alluded to - how does one get cryo-preserved by an American cryonics company when they live in Japan? Unforunately, the logistics may not work on this one, though perhaps there are some ingenious options available.


the most obvious one is to put out a feeler to the world's oldest "person", who is a woman who lives in Indiana, close to CI.

For it to work out with Mr. Tanabe he would likely have to come to michigan and wait to kick it there. Which may be exceedingly unlikely (but who knows), also a large expense. Otherwise we could be looking at a nightmare suspension scenario and incredible costs (potentially days of warm ischemia in transport).

#25 benbest

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 01:43 AM

On the World's Oldest-- it should go to the oldest, not male or female-- but also they would have to agree.  A CI membership is a perfect example-- it would bring a lot of media attention to ImmInst, and cryonics (and Mark's mission could be highlighted for newcomers).  I think it is a wonderful idea to present a prize, and would help with it---coordination and such that would be needed.


Ordinarily I would agree, but the world's oldest man sounds like
the kind of guy who might actually be interested in cryonics:

http://news.bbc.co.u...fic/7000487.stm

I would be delighted if somebody could come up with
the money and get him to accept cryopreservation. He
is a man after my own heart.

I have seen lots of hard luck cases and if you start
looking you can find quite a number of people who would
want to be cryopreserved if someone would pay for them.
I won't begin the list of names here and now. These
stories can disturb me quite a bit. It is more the exception
than the rule when a fund-raising drive of this nature is
successful. Success requires more than someone
making a suggestion.

-- Ben Best

#26 Shannon Vyff

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 01:48 AM

The man in Japan said he wanted to live forever, so this would be a nice response for him whether or not he sees it as having any chance, and wants it for himself or not...

CI deals with families sending their intended cryo-patient from other countries, fairly often. Recently a child had their parent flown (the parent didn't even know about cryonics, was in an advanced state of deterioration when the child decided) to the States, from a different country. The nurses in the hospital where the parent de-animated, were quite helpful, all instructions were given over the phone--the child was a major advocate of course.

If the Japanese man wanted to do it, and his son was supportive--it is likely that the same sort of situation could occur--where the body is shipped after declared legal death, and some preservation protocol at the time of de-animation.

#27 eternaltraveler

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 02:01 AM

Ultimately whether or not we were or not to move forward with an idea like this is subject to imminst's membership. As we are talking about a very large portion of imminst's funds (though they certainly aren't doing much at present)

Before we have such a commitment from membership we can't well make any offer to Mr. Tanabe and family.

Is anyone here presently in japan or at least speak japanese?

#28 DJS

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 02:20 AM

I believe ImmInst Full Member Basho lives in Japan.

#29 eternaltraveler

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 02:32 AM

I've pm'd him.

I'm also starting a poll in the full member area as a feeler on full member's thoughts of the use of funds.

#30 kent23

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 04:52 AM

I love this idea, and I'm 100% for trying it, but the first hurdle I see, once and if we actually manage to get through to Mr. Tanabe, is that I'll be really surprised if he actually meant what he said. But I think if he were to accept the idea, it wouldn't be a Ted Williams fiasco- we can study that case and engineer around the likely pitfalls. I think the outcome could be spectacular. I am generally in a mood lately to feel that the winds are blowing favorably for broad shifts in public perception...

Here's another notion: get press based on the offer itself, while waiting to see if he'll accept. Alternately, fish around for a supercentenarian who will accept, and don't seek press until we've got acceptance. If someone in leadership were officially to approach such folks (and/or Mr. Tanabe), press coverage could be spun off that as well. But we need to be careful here not to end up with circus-freak headlines like "Activist Group Seeks to Freeze Head of World's Oldest Man"...

I also feel for Mark McAllister, and I think we should examine his situation and his prospects before going forward. My feeling is that Mark's claim is probably much greater than that of a man who lived a healthy century plus in a non-tortured body and whom we've shanghaied into the immortalist movement based on a few possibly flippant comments. But what is Mark's need at this point? Will he be taken care of?

Finally, without doing any research, I've heard of bargain basement Russian cryonics, supposedly on the order of $8K for suspension. Any truth to that? And how much better would they be than burial or cremation?




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