116 replies to this topic

[zoolander]

elrond your inital proposition to offer this genetleman immortality through cryopreservation is BRIILIANT from every angle. WOW!

[Lazarus Long]

(benbest)
I have seen lots of hard luck cases and if you start
looking you can find quite a number of people who would
want to be cryopreserved if someone would pay for them.
I won't begin the list of names here and now. These
stories can disturb me quite a bit. It is more the exception
than the rule when a fund-raising drive of this nature is
successful. Success requires more than someone
making a suggestion.

I have to agree.

When I first observed this line of thought my initial response was that it would make much more sense for us to use our funds for a two step outreach to the individual to secure his (AND his family's) support but also for creating and funding a campaign to acquire the balance of the necessary funds for the treatment from donations.

Then I imagined the hue and cry of exploitation that would follow from some circles as well as the need to tie this to some additional forms of research.

Linking the funding effort and the creation of a *trust fund* to providing funds for hardship cases in general rather than a single individual is probably a better way to start but follow that up with a specific outreach to this candidate, measure his level of interest and follow up accordingly. But if he is less than interested the fund and effort can continue to grow regardless and not die with him but be even more prepared for the next candidate.

Second, tie this into the larger issue of Supercentenarian research with additional data collection involving issues of diet and personal history but even more important various biological samples for genetic screening and metabolic testing. These results should be shared ultimately through a publication of findings.

Third, If you bring him here to await cryo be very careful about seeming too anxious while essentially creating a *deathwatch* scenario. How this period is dealt with can make or break an entire program of this nature and it would be much better to have additional funding to make this period a kind of senior version of the *Make A Wish* foundation's efforts. Lot's of smiles and personal moments of life story telling, tea with family etc.

Fourth, and to our side of the idea the most important, the creation of a core team that forms the model of how to accomplish the recruitment and screening of candidates, outreach in general, family and individual support and liaison to the press, CI or ALCOR etc.

This team should be versatile and multi-talented. It must be able to deal with issues of language and culture but also law. It must have a public face but a quiet professional level of accounting that is aware of just what can be done and what can't. They should never make promises to the public OR the individual candidates that they cannot or will not keep. Never come off in the press with pie in the sky promises.

This team must be prepared to act as the PR front for the issue when the effort goes public. They must always be mature and respectful and never come off as glory hounds exploiting the suffering of the elderly for a *political agenda*. Being prepared for this debate means also never losing your temper and always recognizing that people, reporters AND social critics WILL ASK STUPID, BIASED QUESTIONS.

Just smile and answer them with a straight face. )

So I am in favor of this idea however I caution that I do not think we should take on funding it directly but instead fund the organization that will make it happen this time and keep making it happen.

[veritasbh]

This might be unrelated, but I'll throw it out to the community for feedback and ideas. Here's an idea to help generate some additional funds with minimal individual work, but we (as a group) would have to act quickly. and this might be geared more towards Methuselah Foundation (not sure if Imminst has a 501© designation like Methuselah), but ...
(so any Methuselah people here should act on this as well, please.)

I work with a number of charitable organizations, and I just found out about a website called Razoo that has a competition going on.

"Any group that gets 100 members by October 1st, will be entered to win $10,000 in Razoo's Change Your World Contest. We have organizations doing some great work in social justice, the environment, economic development, and other issue areas!

To join one of these groups, click on the link below and browse or search for your group:

Razoo Groups

Every group that gets 100 members by October 1st is entered into the Contest, then the Razoo online community will vote for the winner. Don't forget to come back and vote between October 1st and October 15th to help your group win!"

Currently, I saw only about 12 or so groups out here that have 100+ members. If we can get the community fired up, we might be able to snag this loot.
Worst case, get some publicity/awareness out to philanthropists and activists about our various life extension groups...

There is a similar site at http://www.change.org, but not sure of any competition or anything going on there...

[Shannon Vyff]

Can Basho speak Japanese? I letter would need to be sent to the family, just to see if they would be interested or not. Also, it has to be presented as responding to the man's wish to live forever--with the only known possible chance for him.

Veritasbh, you can contact Mprize and see if they'd want to do it--you could set it up even--I'm sure many here would support you. It could go under the Health section--but thanks for the link, I book marked it and enjoy seeing all the causes--I'm going to show it to my kids too.

On the creation of a new organization--a public face, I think ImmInst already has that ability. We would need to get more united, if a letter to the family caused the family to be interested. Also if they are in favor of the idea, he can pass away in his home, and his family can ship the body.

Kent24-- Cryonics Institute does not freeze heads only, they do not do neuro--only whole body. Williams neuro did bother a lot of people who didn't check out all the science and reasons. CI has avoided those negative connotations by only doing whole body.

Finally I think many here are interested in this idea enough that there will be many volunteers for the effort, I being one.

[veritasbh]

Thanks Shannon. I've sent an email to a couple volunteers I know, Reason and Anne Corwin, so stay tuned...

[Shannon Vyff]

veritasbh--yes do let us know! (that site is really great, I'm going to share it with my church friends)

So--are we going to send a letter? Do we have a wiki page where one could be written and group edited?

[Matt]

This is an excellent idea, but it would have to move fast. Although he is reported to be in exceptional health, at that age it isn't uncommon for them to deteriorate quite quickly at any point. I would also be quite surprised if he accepted!

Also would other organizations helps, one being LEF? Or you looking to fund it only by imminst?

[caston]

Ideally what we want to do is take the worlds oldest man and make him young again.

[Mind]

I like the idea. It is risky but also bold. Thanks for all the input everyone. My only criteria would that we not spend more than half the Institute's funds on such a project. I would tend to think a couple other org's would jump in and help with the funding if the fellow was willing.

[Shannon Vyff]

First --a letter needs to be sent, see if they are interested.

[caston]

Perhaps ideally there should be a fund to make cryonics pro-bono for everyone that makes it past 100 kind of like a modern day letter from the queen.

Regardless of motivation if we have reason to believe this sort of program could and would save lives then there should be a seperate fund for it. A certain (and sane) percentage of imminst funds could be allocated to it on member approval. The rest could be contributed to by individuals and other interested organisations especially organisation related to cryonics and transhumanism. Rather than going for media attention which would fail to understand and may even purposely skew our story we should make own media.
A documentary would need to made where leading people in cryonics, nanotechology, stem cell rejuvenation and life extension talk with and explain what we are working on to the worlds oldest and assumably wisest people. We attempt to raise money to help them with technologies they may be interested in including but not limited to cryonics. We could even offer them something as simple as resveratrol.

Sections of the documentary would show sophisticated computer animations and modeling showing how SENS could and would work.
At some point or points (perhaps the beginning and the end) in the documentary we show the public at the beach.

The documentary could be the revenue raiser itself.

The other avenue is the worlds oldest young people; the suffers of progeria and similar syndromes. Again regardless of motivation we can pursue this avenue if we have a solid foundation to be certain that it will save lives.

Edited by caston, 21 September 2007 - 02:12 AM.

[Shannon Vyff]

Can I have 'permission' to procure a letter, one that someone can translate, find that someone--write something and have it 'okayed' by leadership here? PM me...or respond here, I'd like to know what parameters I have to proceed...

[Lazarus Long]

Can I have 'permission' to procure a letter, one that someone can translate, find that someone--write something and have it 'okayed' by leadership here? PM me...or respond here, I'd like to know what parameters I have to proceed...

Shannon, I encourage you to do exactly what you are asking for but do not transmit that letter to anyone without *official authorization* from the Directors.

The letter should be backed up by a vote of the full membership to support this proposal. However just creating the letter commits the organization to nothing yet so I *grant permission* as chair for you to go ahead.

Second, as chair for the moment I want to see a team in place to undertake this effort. So far I see a lot of loose volunteers with no clear idea of what they want and more importantly CAN do.

I recommend that such a team of interested volunteers form, establish a structure with a designated leader/representative and a specific proposal and then bring it back to this organization for review. No organizational stamp of approval is required for like minding members to join together to create this proposal.

Decide among yourselves who you are that want to undertake this mission and then elect among yourselves a leader to represent you to the BoD and the Full Membership for a vote of approval. Decide among yourselves a plan of action and the delegation of responsibilities, and most importantly determine what the REALISTIC fiscal needs of this plan accurately are and where all those funds are going to come from.

Also I strongly recommend that the mission not be dependent on this one candidate but the idea of creating a fund for individuals that cannot pay for the service on their own and/or are Supercentarians that want to participate. You might even consider recruiting persons of notable talent that might not otherwise have considered this option like artists, scientists, social activists etc.

[caston]

The other thing is instead of it being a documentary we could actually make it a "pilot" for a new TV series devoted to life extension. It takes us a lot of effort to be constantly researching and reading the things that we learn as immortalists.

If we could condense it all into weekly 1 hour TV science programs we could greatly increase mindshare in the radical life extension sphere. I bet we could easily find a network willing to take up the show.

[Neurosail]

Someone should check this guy's history...
"ImmInst saves the life of a Japanese death camp guard" would be bad PR...

I'm having second thoughts on this.

"Scholarships for Full Members" might be a better idea and use of the money. $3,000.00 per semester for writing the best paper on transhumanist goals for example.
$3,000.00 should pay for books/ tuition at most colleges for one semester.

Scholarships would help a lot of kids here out and that may have a greater impact on life extension research.

More people might become Full Members for a chance/ or help young people to finish college, and the papers could be published into a book to help pay for more scholarships.

ImmInst doesn't have the money now for a cryonics suspension without borrowing the money or finding more sponsors.

[Shannon Vyff]

Neurosail he was a civil engineer: http://en.wikipedia....i/Tomoji_Tanabe

I'll write a letter.

This is in response to him saying he wants to live forever. I do think that we should try the other world's oldest, but first give a period of time to hear back from this man, we can give say two months, in the letter. (time for his family to research us and cryonics) If we don't hear back, then we can keep trying.

Some very large PR, would bring in a lot more money--to fund other things like scholarships, documentaries and such.

[caston]

I propose we start a seperate thread to talk about the life extension documentary and or television series. The person hired to be imminst content manager could be in charge of administering the project and we all should easily be able contribute enough content to make an entire season of the show. This idea is to plan (at least a rough overview of) the whole season then decide what we put into the pilot episode.

We will need to make the pilot episode succesful enough to get funding to produce the rest of the season.

Any imminst members currently involved in media or web media (in terms of broadcast or internet television) would be an enormous asset to this project.
The show will be about all the things we discuss on imminst e.g. cryonics, SENS, supplements, AGI, DNA repair, mitochondria

[Luna]

Yes we should save him! and the rest of the world.. but I guess it's a start.

[basho]

Hi guys, I missed this thread until I got PM'd.

of course the fact he's in japan might be troublesome.

Sorry to bring a downer to this wonderful idea, but it may bring more trouble than you expect. I believe cremation is mandatory by law for Japanese citizens, and it can be done after only 24 hours of death, so you can expect a bureaucratic nightmare. In addition, the funeral business is BIG business here and very entrenched. You may find yourself fighting a battle on multiple fronts, with some nasty PR from vested interests. You will also have to fight his family who will be very amenable to local manipulation and societal pressure. The entire plan could be derailed by a pressure groups suggesting to the old man that he will bring shame upon his family by rejecting a standard funeral.

But I'm certainly no expert on the topic of death in Japan. If you can swing popular culture in your favor, that would be a huge win. There is a large, aging population who may embrace with enthusiasm the prospect of continued health and long-life. You just need to do it right.

[Mind]

Great information Basho. Thanks for chiming in.

As is always the case with something revolutionary like cryopreservation, it needs to be spun the right way. We need to emphasize how this is visionary and based on physics/science. The oldest man in Japan could be the first from his country to be preserved and rejuventated in the future. It is a badge of honor.

[caston]

Is there a cryonics association in Japan?

[Shannon Vyff]

Thanks Basho, it is good to think of that when I write my letter--it is a long shot. I did have a Japanese exchange student live with me for 6 months, several years ago--I know that family and societal pressures are quite different than here in the U.S.

[eternaltraveler]

(Laz)

The letter should be backed up by a vote of the full membership to support this proposal. However just creating the letter commits the organization to nothing yet so I *grant permission* as chair for you to go ahead.

Second, as chair for the moment I want to see a team in place to undertake this effort. So far I see a lot of loose volunteers with no clear idea of what they want and more importantly CAN do.

I recommend that such a team of interested volunteers form, establish a structure with a designated leader/representative and a specific proposal and then bring it back to this organization for review. No organizational stamp of approval is required for like minding members to join together to create this proposal.

I agree with you Laz on all points. This shouldn't be only about Mr. Tanabe, but he is an obvious first choice.

Would members interested in being part of the team please pm me. Shannon is an obvious part as she is already writing the letter. There are also a few of you I might feel the need to draft ) But I encourage anyone that thinks they can contribute in anyway to pm me, and we'll talk about how we'll get things set up.

(wing girl)

Thanks Basho, it is good to think of that when I write my letter--it is a long shot. I did have a Japanese exchange student live with me for 6 months, several years ago--I know that family and societal pressures are quite different than here in the U.S.

I very much appreciate you taking the bull by the horns and writting the letter. Please let me know when you have a draft

[Shannon Vyff]

ok, it is done--I'll send it tomorrow, (after a final read through) -- then you can put it where you wish... I'll pm, for your email Elrond.

[Shannon Vyff]

So, what now--with the letter? Will it be posted to all, or will leadership look it over for what should be added, or re-worded?

Who would translate? Basho? I've sent it to the woman who is interested in translating my book to Japanese, but have not heard back from her yet... Basho, living in Japan, seems the best person to mail it. The woman in Europe, might know a good way to send it (other than to the city council of the city he lives in, addressed to his name...)

[veritasbh]

My turn to be the downer. How/when would this be funded? I haven't really read any concrete ideas yet. Does it really make sense to send this guy a letter, with no plan in place to fund the effort? Imagine if he said yes, and imminst couldn't raise the funds. Furthers the chance of a PR fiasco/backlash, as well as just being rude, raising the guy's hopes.

[Shannon Vyff]

What is offered is the 28,000 preservation fee at Cryonics Institute, this would come out of ImmInst annual working budget. Well over that is already available, no funds are needed to be raised. His family will have to be on board, for this to occur. If they are interested then we can figure out what can be done with the red tape issues, of having a dead body flown rather than cremated.

[Shannon Vyff]

ps, cryonics should not 'raise' ones hopes, really IMO, it is only a long shot, yet it is a chance and a better option of getting to a time where aging has been ended, than cremation or burial, in the end if it works or doesn't you still get to have your end--just depends on when (I include transhumanism/singularity as an end to what we know as human--as well as our typical understanding of the end of death, and the eventual ending of our universe...) -- but go through the list of threads in the cryonics forum for the various debates on this subject and cryonics in general: http://www.imminst.o...?s=&act=SF&f=61

[Lazarus Long]

What is offered is the 28,000 preservation fee at Cryonics Institute, this would come out of ImmInst annual working budget. Well over that is already available, no funds are needed to be raised.

No offense Wing Girl but this is neither approved nor on its face likely to be approved. Writing a letter is one thing, getting such a radical proposal through the membership is quite another. That is far more of the organizational funds than I want to see allocated to this project and that is why I keep saying you need to see what this organization can do as *seed capital* for the purpose of establishing an organization to raise the funds to accomplish this goal.

[Shannon Vyff]

The letter needs to be sent to see if he and his family are interested-- it sounds though, as if-before a letter is sent, there must be a vote on it, right? In the letter it says that the 28,000 would be covered-- so ImmInst would have to have another vote on if they will pay it, if the man is interested, right? So we are back to me wondering what will be done with the letter, will it be edited by leadership--then be put up for a vote?