223 replies to this topic

[niner]

But I was put off by your arrogance

Pot, meet Kettle...

[AdamSummerfield]

Obama. He is a democrat.

[JonesGuy]

I think the Obama has the best international qualifications. I also think that he's got a reasonable understanding of economics. I recognise that it's hard to teach ignorant people about proper economics, but we really want people out front who understand them.

I'm a minority in that I think that more socialised medicine is a good thing. People are concerned about a reduction in medical research, but I don't think that will happen. As well, the economic feedback of cheaper medicine will create more prosperity (which is useful in all kinda of ways, progressively speaking).

I don't know if the American Gov't is smart enough to implement such a system so that it gains the same efficiencies seen elsewhere, but I guess it's worth trying.

Hopefully Obama can convince the populace that it's individual efforts that are going to right the country, that they're the most effective place to start making a change.

[biknut]

I still believe if it's McCain against Obama, Obama wins, but, McCain / Condoleezza Rice = very hard to beat. This would be a way for McCain to steal the thunder from Obama (black) or Clinton (woman). I think he could then win back most of independents, a large % of women, and about 1/4 of black voters. It would also help him with conservatives.

[Lazarus Long]

Funny you mention McCain/Rice; I was pondering this linkage too and I think the dems are hard pressed to respond. I expect Obama to get a military man as a running mate but he may seek a military woman. A governor is possible but one strange political option could be Bloomberg if he has to heal serious rupture in the NE.

Bloomberg is a very powerful economist and social liberal to bring to the table and probably will end up something like Secretary of the treasury perhaps regardless of which party is elected. Ironically he is a very respected independent *liberal* Republican with fiscally *libertarian* sensibility modified with a strong dose of conservative social responsibility. He is the kind of politico that really understands economics and the country would benefit from having at the helm of the economy during the growing economic crisis.

BTW everyone I think the importance of the legislative shift is more important than the president in many ways and that is another reason I do not think Clinton will prevail, or that she will be joined in a ticket with Obama. The dems need a ground swell to continue to retake a significant majority in both houses.

[sentrysnipe]

I am more interested in knowing who those 9 Imminst members that voted for McCain are.

[Brainbox]

It looks like the final nominee for each party might be Barack Obama and John McCain. (unless Hillary can pull one out, which is looking less and less likely)

Who would you vote for between the two of them?

I'm not American, but I took the liberty to vote for Obama in this poll.
I would vote for any democratic candidate.
But like someone else already mentioned, the risk that Obama will be assassinated could be quite large due to his ethnic background imo. But maybe I'm to pessimistic about the US political dynamics.....

[niner]

It looks like the final nominee for each party might be Barack Obama and John McCain. (unless Hillary can pull one out, which is looking less and less likely)

Who would you vote for between the two of them?

I'm not American, but I took the liberty to vote for Obama in this poll.
I would vote for any democratic candidate.
But like someone else already mentioned, the risk that Obama will be assassinated could be quite large due to his ethnic background imo. But maybe I'm to pessimistic about the US political dynamics.....

I was concerned about an Obama assassination too, for a while. I heard a report on the radio that some African Americans were going as far as not voting for him out of a fear that if he did too well, he would be assassinated. I was relieved to hear that his security is now almost at the level of a sitting president. That's a good thing, because if he was killed it would tear our country apart. BTW, it's not his race per se that raises his risk, it's that he reminds people of the Kennedys and Dr. King. He seems like the kind of guy that some nut would want to kill.

[gashinshotan]

It looks like the final nominee for each party might be Barack Obama and John McCain. (unless Hillary can pull one out, which is looking less and less likely)

Who would you vote for between the two of them?

I'm not American, but I took the liberty to vote for Obama in this poll.
I would vote for any democratic candidate.
But like someone else already mentioned, the risk that Obama will be assassinated could be quite large due to his ethnic background imo. But maybe I'm to pessimistic about the US political dynamics.....

I was concerned about an Obama assassination too, for a while. I heard a report on the radio that some African Americans were going as far as not voting for him out of a fear that if he did too well, he would be assassinated. I was relieved to hear that his security is now almost at the level of a sitting president. That's a good thing, because if he was killed it would tear our country apart. BTW, it's not his race per se that raises his risk, it's that he reminds people of the Kennedys and Dr. King. He seems like the kind of guy that some nut would want to kill.

If he gets assasinated and there's a race war, blacks will come out with the short stick. Latinos and Asians together are a far more potent economic and political group than blacks and any race riots would only lead to further repression of blacks and probably mark the beginning of the blacks' demise.

[mentatpsi]

I'm a minority in that I think that more socialised medicine is a good thing. People are concerned about a reduction in medical research, but I don't think that will happen. As well, the economic feedback of cheaper medicine will create more prosperity (which is useful in all kinda of ways, progressively speaking).

Why do you think so? Production, testing, and marketing cost money. By decreasing the costs of medicine wouldn't there be a likelihood that somewhere within this process money will be taken away? In the end some company has to invest money in research and development in hopes it can gain profit, if you decrease expected profit you don't increase incentive. Medicine production would then maintain a trend in becoming more traditional rather than discovering new ways of solving previous ailments, which would cost money for research. But if you can clarify your logic it could be interesting, and i don't mean to sound rude i just really don't see your logic, and therefore don't see high hopes for socialized medicine. Socialism doesn't work well in a capitalistic setting.

Edit: forgot to add bribes (dinners and the works), i suppose it fits in with marketing

Edited by mysticpsi, 16 March 2008 - 07:31 AM.

[RighteousReason]

This should help you make a decision:

[inawe]

It looks like the final nominee for each party might be Barack Obama and John McCain. (unless Hillary can pull one out, which is looking less and less likely)

Who would you vote for between the two of them?

I'm not American, but I took the liberty to vote for Obama in this poll.
I would vote for any democratic candidate.
But like someone else already mentioned, the risk that Obama will be assassinated could be quite large due to his ethnic background imo. But maybe I'm to pessimistic about the US political dynamics.....

As an American I have the right to vote. Since the US is butting, interfering and policing in many other countries, their citizens might claim the right to vote also. Buy the way, we'll welcome your tax euros.

Since the current administration managed to screw up everything so badly, it was supposed to be a cake walk for any reasonable Democratic candidate.
But the Democrats might still come up with the impossible: lose this election. First they told the crucial Democratic Florida electorate: your vote in the primary counts for nothing. Then most of the hierarchy endorsed Obama, a good friend of Jeremiah Wright and Farrakhan, WOW! Repugnants are going to run this thing nonstop.

I cannot stop crying.

[niner]

I'm a minority in that I think that more socialised medicine is a good thing. People are concerned about a reduction in medical research, but I don't think that will happen. As well, the economic feedback of cheaper medicine will create more prosperity (which is useful in all kinda of ways, progressively speaking).

Why do you think so? Production, testing, and marketing cost money. By decreasing the costs of medicine wouldn't there be a likelihood that somewhere within this process money will be taken away? In the end some company has to invest money in research and development in hopes it can gain profit, if you decrease expected profit you don't increase incentive. Medicine production would then maintain a trend in becoming more traditional rather than discovering new ways of solving previous ailments, which would cost money for research. But if you can clarify your logic it could be interesting, and i don't mean to sound rude i just really don't see your logic, and therefore don't see high hopes for socialized medicine. Socialism doesn't work well in a capitalistic setting.

Edit: forgot to add bribes (dinners and the works), i suppose it fits in with marketing

Replacing a complicated bunch of insurance companies with a single government-run payer like Medicare does not have to mean that the cost of covering more people comes out of research. There is a LOT of money now being spent on a massive and highly duplicative insurance bureaucracy, along with an enormous number of people on the healthcare provider side whose only job is dealing with all those insurance companies. It has been estimated that 35% of our healthcare dollars go to the total cost of the insurance system. Under Medicare, the overhead is under 5%.

Not all research is profit driven. Many of the most important breakthroughs in biomedicine come out of the academic sector. Big Pharma companies are money sponges, but they don't really do as much as people think to improve human health. They are in the business of making money, not improving health.

Our present healthcare system hurts our economy because it makes US industry less competitive, since they have to pay for health insurance but none of their foreign competitors do.

[maxwatt]

...
Insulting, yes. That's why I said sorry. Childish? I'd say it was positively sophomoric! That's about ten grades beyond your "sh*t smelling" comment. You probably think I'm some kind of "America Hater". Is that it? Sorry, wrong. I love my country, and the hairs stand up on my neck too when the Veterans float goes by on Memorial Day. I just happen to have a problem with Neocon pseudo-patriots who wouldn't be caught dead without a flag pin in their lapel while they wipe their ass with the Constitution. That kind of thing has sensitized me to the use and misuse of our country's symbols for purposes of manipulating people into voting against their self interest.

What's weird is how many of the Neocons were Trotskyites before they came under the influence of Leo Strauss. Our political discourse has become hopelessly polluted, words have not meaning but serve as rallying cries, and the Big Lie is used to manipulate the public into acting against their own self-interest.

[inawe]

...
Insulting, yes. That's why I said sorry. Childish? I'd say it was positively sophomoric! That's about ten grades beyond your "sh*t smelling" comment. You probably think I'm some kind of "America Hater". Is that it? Sorry, wrong. I love my country, and the hairs stand up on my neck too when the Veterans float goes by on Memorial Day. I just happen to have a problem with Neocon pseudo-patriots who wouldn't be caught dead without a flag pin in their lapel while they wipe their ass with the Constitution. That kind of thing has sensitized me to the use and misuse of our country's symbols for purposes of manipulating people into voting against their self interest.

What's weird is how many of the Neocons were Trotskyites before they came under the influence of Leo Strauss. Our political discourse has become hopelessly polluted, words have not meaning but serve as rallying cries, and the Big Lie is used to manipulate the public into acting against their own self-interest.

This plus the dragging around of red herrings to keep uneducated people focused on irrelevant issues: right of a 3 month old fetus, if sex between adults is done with the right partners, whether evolution is the truth or just a theory (WOW!), faith based this or other ... That, coupled with the fact that in order to be elected to anything a candidate has to go to church (or temple) at least once a week.

[niner]

...
Insulting, yes. That's why I said sorry. Childish? I'd say it was positively sophomoric! That's about ten grades beyond your "sh*t smelling" comment. You probably think I'm some kind of "America Hater". Is that it? Sorry, wrong. I love my country, and the hairs stand up on my neck too when the Veterans float goes by on Memorial Day. I just happen to have a problem with Neocon pseudo-patriots who wouldn't be caught dead without a flag pin in their lapel while they wipe their ass with the Constitution. That kind of thing has sensitized me to the use and misuse of our country's symbols for purposes of manipulating people into voting against their self interest.

What's weird is how many of the Neocons were Trotskyites before they came under the influence of Leo Strauss. Our political discourse has become hopelessly polluted, words have not meaning but serve as rallying cries, and the Big Lie is used to manipulate the public into acting against their own self-interest.

This plus the dragging around of red herrings to keep uneducated people focused on irrelevant issues: right of a 3 month old fetus, if sex between adults is done with the right partners, whether evolution is the truth or just a theory (WOW!), faith based this or other ... That, coupled with the fact that in order to be elected to anything a candidate has to go to church (or temple) at least once a week.

Some people are so deeply concerned about abortion, gays, or evolution that they will knowingly sell out their economic interests over these things. I can at least respect those people (in a way). The ones that I really find pathetic are the low income bozos driving around in clapped out cars with weathered Bush Cheney bumper stickers who don't care that much about the social issues but actually believe the supply-side and laissez faire myths. Funny, but it seems that Republicans only pretend to care about the social Wedge Issues. Note that despite controlling all three branches of government, they've hardly done squat about abortion. Or the "Homosexual Agenda". Or School Prayer. Or Immigration. Or Creationism.

[maxwatt]

If Obama chooses Hiary as running mate, it will be something of an insurance policy against assassination. And vice-versa.

And why haven't the Repugnants done squat about abortion, the "Homosexual Agenda". School Prayer, Immigration. or Creationism? For much the same reason the Indiana legislature didn't pass a law legislating the value of Pi. They actually tried to do that. Another faith-based movement from the late 19th century.
....
Despite the mess the Repugnants have made of the country, and the rising groundswell against them, I do not underestimate the Democrats' ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Edited by maxwatt, 18 March 2008 - 04:41 AM.

[inawe]

Despite the mess the Repugnants have made of the country, and the rising groundswell against them, I do not underestimate the Democrats' ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Howard Dean seems to be a nice guy. He might have good ideas. But he still has a hard time figuring out how politics works. I sent an email yesterday asking how come they didn't realize if they tell Florida Democrats: "OK, you dragged your ass and voted in the primary. Sorry to tell you is going to count for nothing", many of them wont vote in November. Then it's all over. I'm getting in shape for when McCain reinstitutes the draft and I'm called to fight the Iraqis, Afghans, Iranians (the Vietnamese again?, Cubans? not the Chinese please!?).

[Cyberbrain]

[Sozin]

If I were president I would first reduce the legal drinking age to 18. Then I would try to seal the borders a little better so that becoming an American is a little more difficult than it is now. Then I would take all the money spent on over-hyped, kinda useless sports and movie stars and pump it into school teachers salaries. There would still be pro sports but Arod doesn't need to be so rich just because people like to watch him play baseball (Of course taking this money away would cause a strike yada yada yada but then again the president doesn't really have all this power so its wishful thinking anyway). Then I would completely erase the Elo rating system for competitive chess -- it puffs up its good players with hot air and plus people should fear you for your name not for your rating. Then I would completely reorganize health care so that insurance companies can not refuse you treatment (not that it happens often anyway) and aren't allowed to make such gigantic profits. Also I would make universities lower tuition because having an education is good for the country as a whole and should be offered to most people -- around the world college is either free or 10x cheaper than in america. Then I'd shut down Mcdonalds and other bad fast food places just because they suck money out of the people and fill them with unhealthy crap -- definitely no need for that. Then I'd just give aubrey 1 billion dollars privately to see what happens. That would help the country a lot

[EmbraceUnity]

If I were president I would first reduce the legal drinking age to 18. Then I would try to seal the borders a little better so that becoming an American is a little more difficult than it is now. Then I would take all the money spent on over-hyped, kinda useless sports and movie stars and pump it into school teachers salaries. There would still be pro sports but Arod doesn't need to be so rich just because people like to watch him play baseball (Of course taking this money away would cause a strike yada yada yada but then again the president doesn't really have all this power so its wishful thinking anyway). Then I would completely erase the Elo rating system for competitive chess -- it puffs up its good players with hot air and plus people should fear you for your name not for your rating. Then I would completely reorganize health care so that insurance companies can not refuse you treatment (not that it happens often anyway) and aren't allowed to make such gigantic profits. Also I would make universities lower tuition because having an education is good for the country as a whole and should be offered to most people -- around the world college is either free or 10x cheaper than in america. Then I'd shut down Mcdonalds and other bad fast food places just because they suck money out of the people and fill them with unhealthy crap -- definitely no need for that. Then I'd just give aubrey 1 billion dollars privately to see what happens. That would help the country a lot

you're cute

[lucid]

Insulting, yes. That's why I said sorry. Childish? I'd say it was positively sophomoric! That's about ten grades beyond your "sh*t smelling" comment. You probably think I'm some kind of "America Hater". Is that it? Sorry, wrong. I love my country, and the hairs stand up on my neck too when the Veterans float goes by on Memorial Day. I just happen to have a problem with Neocon pseudo-patriots who wouldn't be caught dead without a flag pin in their lapel while they wipe their ass with the Constitution. That kind of thing has sensitized me to the use and misuse of our country's symbols for purposes of manipulating people into voting against their self interest.

I have been sitting here for 40 minutes trying to type something of my own, but the words aren't making it to the paper particularlly well today so I will resort to quoting chomsky:

QUESTION: After releasing your book 9-11, many reporters have said that you are anti-American. Others even suggest that you should pack up and move to another country since you believe America to be a leading terrorist state. How do you respond to such remarks?

CHOMSKY: The concept "anti-American" is an interesting one. The counterpart is used only in totalitarian states or military dictatorships, something I wrote about many years ago (see my book Letters from Lexington). Thus, in the old Soviet Union, dissidents were condemned as "anti-Soviet." That's a natural usage among people with deeply rooted totalitarian instincts, which identify state policy with the society, the people, the culture. In contrast, people with even the slightest concept of democracy treat such notions with ridicule and contempt. Suppose someone in Italy who criticizes Italian state policy were condemned as "anti-Italian." It would be regarded as too ridiculous even to merit laughter. Maybe under Mussolini, but surely not otherwise.

Actually the concept has earlier origins. It was used in the Bible by King Ahab, the epitome of evil, to condemn those who sought justice as "anti-Israel" ("ocher Yisrael," in the original Hebrew, roughly "hater of Israel," or "disturber of Israel"). His specific target was Elijah.

It's interesting to see the tradition in which the people you refer to choose to place themselves. The idea of leaving America because one opposes state policy is another reflection of deep totalitarian commitments. Solzhenitsyn, for example, was forced to leave Russia, against his will, by people with beliefs very much like those you are quoting.

http://www.chomsky.i...ws/20021209.htm

While, of course, it is rarely outright stated, the idea of being 'anti-American' has come to mean that if one does not support a government policy then one also does not support the American way of life, community, and people etc... The obvious effect of having this logical fallacy spread through out the population is discouraging dissent of American policy (particularly American foreign policy) for fear of being branded as anti-American.

Perhaps the greater effect, is that politicians who act to worsen the interests of our country (by wasting tax dollars and lives in foreign wars, eroding personal freedoms, increasing the citizens tax burden...) can wear that little symbol and say that they are patriotic. It almost seems that if they parade their symbol around loudly enough then an attack against them or their policies becomes anti-American. If such attacks become humorous then this ensures:

*edit* looks like I was reading the first page when I posted this, so lol. Sorry if the conversation flow was interrupted.

Edited by lucid, 25 March 2008 - 09:19 PM.

[inawe]

Chomsky and O'Reilly, quite a mix. By varying the individual percentages in the mix you can cover the whole spectrum of possible political tendencies.

[niner]

While, of course, it is rarely outright stated, the idea of being 'anti-American' has come to mean that if one does not support a government policy then one also does not support the American way of life, community, and people etc...

But along a similar vein there are many people on the Left who will use labels such as "racist" and "fascist" at the drop of a hat in an attempt to politically assassinate people who hold political views which differ from their own. For example, at my university I was once accused of being a fascist because expressed some issues with affirmative action (I believe assistance or special allowances should be based on some combination of need and the education level of ones parents, etc., but not race), and on this board I have been accused of being a racist because I made a joke about *not* mentioning the middle name of someone's favored candidate. So this sort of thing goes both ways. By the way, I never called niner an "American-Hater" or even implied such a thing. If you read our discussion you will see quite clearly that this is only what he thinks I think about him.

You probably think I'm some kind of "America Hater". Is that it?

Ludongbin, it's true, you never called me an "America Hater". That sentiment seems to be highly correlated with expressions of deep concern about symbolic patriotism, especially when combined with a stream of insults, so it was a reasonable guess, but a guess nonetheless. Thus the use of the word "probably".