169 replies to this topic

[skein]

Some has hormone-like activity.

Not according to this study:

http://www.nature.co...l/5602383a.html
http://www.nature.co...l/5602391a.html

[Eva Victoria]

Some has hormone-like activity.

Not according to this study:

http://www.nature.co...l/5602383a.html
http://www.nature.co...l/5602391a.html

Thank you for posting the link to the study.
It is indeed good news esp. when the EU starts to acknowledge this about OMC. Since it is one of the mildest organic sunscreens previously widely used as an UVB filter together with ZnO in sunscreen products for children.

[Eva Victoria]

Thanks Eva, what are you your thoughts on morning sunlight and it's rays? I've read of some of these rays may actually be beneficial to the skin. I do know that morning rays are at least less harmful than midl-afternoon rays.

For me, I just don't see the point in wearing sunscreen everyday unless I am out in the direct sunlight for more than 15 mins. I've gone my whole life without protecting my skin, I'm pretty pale, and I still do not show the signs of photo-aging at 38 that many people do. I can only imagine that if I had protected my skin 75 % of the time I did not, how young my skin would look and feel. The most noticeable sun damage on my body is on my arms and hands. I do believe in wearing sunscreen, but if I can't even feel the sun on my face, and I don't show any color change, I just don't see how there could be much damage done and don't see the point in wearing it at these times. Also, I'm a big believer in getting at least some vitamin D from sun exposure. Plus, I have yet to find a sunscreen that does not go on white on my face and does not irritate my skin. I like the MyChelle product, but it still feels irritating and uncomfortable. I don't want to risk using any of the chemical based facial sunscreens on a regular basis. I have not tried Badger yet, I'm not sure if their sunscreen goes on more clear than most zinc sunscreens.

Hi Morgan,

I have the general view of that all UV rays (and visible light) regardless of time, year (and almost geographic place) generate free-radicals that lead to extrinsic aging. But on the other hand light and UVR are necessary for survival. So what I usually say is that: protect your face every day but put your legs out in the sun rays in April, May (in the Nordic hemisphere North of Paris) twice a week (totally 6 times) for 20 min for having adequate Vitamin D storage for the year.

[Eva Victoria]

I attach the protection curves of different UV filters available. This is from the book: Clinical Guide to Sunscreens and Photoprotection.

Attached Files

•  UV filter Protection Curves.JPG   106.84KB   107 downloads

[nupi]

Dumb question maybe, but are the Tinosorbs on there? If so, under which label? These days even the cheapest European sunscreens are usually Tinosorb based (often with TiO2 and OCR as well).

Personally, I am using Boots' Soltan SPF50 5 star UVA protection (the bastards sadly dont ship it abroad, but whenever I am in the UK, I make sure to stock up) which is both cheap (often on sale, at which point you can get 2 50ml tubes for like 6GBP) and agrees well with my skin. After 6 months of equatorial climate, my face is as pale as ever.

The only problem is that it is not at all water resistant, so sweat turns it into an ugly film on the face and requires reapplication...

Edited by nupi, 30 July 2011 - 06:54 PM.

[Eva Victoria]

Tinosorb S = BEMT
Tinosorb M = MBBT

Here is the Ingredients list for Soltan Face SPF 50+
AQUA, C12-15 ALKYL BENZOATE, GLYCERIN, OCTOCRYLENE, BUTYL METHOXYDIBENZOYLMETHANE, ISOTRIDECYL SALICYATE, ISONONYL ISONONANOATE, C18-36 ACID GLYCOL ESTER, POLYGLYCERYL-3 METHYGLUCOSE DISTEARATE, POLYSILICONE-15, METHYLENE BIS-BENZOTRIAZOLYL TETRAMETHYLBUTYLPHENOL, BIS-ETHYLHEXYLOXYPHENOL METHOXYPHENYL TRIAZINE, BUTYROSPERMUM PARKII BUTTER, DIMETHICONE, TITANIUM DIOXIDE, DIETHYLHEXYL BUTAMIDO TRIAZINE, SORBITAN STEARATE, PHENOXYETHANOL, CETYL ALCOHOL, POLYSORBATE 20, MICA, DECYL GLUCOSIDE, TOCOPHEROL ACETATE, PARFUM, XANTHAN GUM, ACRYLATES/VINYL ISODECANOATE CROSSPOLYMER, SODIUM ASCORBYL PHOSPHATE, VITIS VINIFERA, SUCROSE COCOATE, DIMETHYL OXAZOLIDINE, POTASSIUM HYDROXIDE, TETRASODIUM EDTA, BUTYLENE GLYCOL, PROPYLENE GLYCOL, PANAX GINSENG, MANGANESE DIOXIDE, AMINOMETHYL PROPANOL, CI 77891


(Some of the TiO2 used is Optisol: TiO2 with Manganese Dioxide. It gives increased UVA protection up to 385 nm and has a stabilizing effect on AVO as well).

It is a pity though that it gets to be a mess in humid weather.

[skein]

Tinosorb S = BEMT
Tinosorb M = MBBT

Here is the Ingredients list for Soltan Face SPF 50+
AQUA, C12-15 ALKYL BENZOATE, GLYCERIN, OCTOCRYLENE, BUTYL METHOXYDIBENZOYLMETHANE, ISOTRIDECYL SALICYATE, ISONONYL ISONONANOATE, C18-36 ACID GLYCOL ESTER, POLYGLYCERYL-3 METHYGLUCOSE DISTEARATE, POLYSILICONE-15, METHYLENE BIS-BENZOTRIAZOLYL TETRAMETHYLBUTYLPHENOL, BIS-ETHYLHEXYLOXYPHENOL METHOXYPHENYL TRIAZINE, BUTYROSPERMUM PARKII BUTTER, DIMETHICONE, TITANIUM DIOXIDE, DIETHYLHEXYL BUTAMIDO TRIAZINE, SORBITAN STEARATE, PHENOXYETHANOL, CETYL ALCOHOL, POLYSORBATE 20, MICA, DECYL GLUCOSIDE, TOCOPHEROL ACETATE, PARFUM, XANTHAN GUM, ACRYLATES/VINYL ISODECANOATE CROSSPOLYMER, SODIUM ASCORBYL PHOSPHATE, VITIS VINIFERA, SUCROSE COCOATE, DIMETHYL OXAZOLIDINE, POTASSIUM HYDROXIDE, TETRASODIUM EDTA, BUTYLENE GLYCOL, PROPYLENE GLYCOL, PANAX GINSENG, MANGANESE DIOXIDE, AMINOMETHYL PROPANOL, CI 77891


(Some of the TiO2 used is Optisol: TiO2 with Manganese Dioxide. It gives increased UVA protection up to 385 nm and has a stabilizing effect on AVO as well).

It is a pity though that it gets to be a mess in humid weather.

This product has been reformulated lately:

http://www.boots.com...0-50ml_1207078/

Aqua, C12-15 alkyl benzoate, Butylene glycol, Octocrylene, Cyclopentasiloxane, Butyl methoxydibenzoylmethane, Tridecyl salicylate, Cyclohexasiloxane, Bis-ethylhexyloxyphenol methoxyphenyl triazine, Dimethicone, Cetearyl alcohol, C18-36 acid glycol ester, Titanium dioxide, Phenoxyethanol, Lauryl methacrylate/glycol dimethacrylate cross polymer, Acrylamide/ammonium acrylate copolymer, Methylene bis-benzotriazolyl tetramethylbutylphenol, Glyceryl stearate, Potassium cetyl phosphate, PEG-100 stearate, Diethylhexyl butamido triazone, Mica, Polyisobutene, Parfum, Dimethiconol, Tocopheryl acetate, Xanthan gum, Sodium PCA, Sodium ascorbyl phosphate, Vitis vinifera seed oil, Decyl glucoside, Glycerin, Dimethyl oxazolidine, Polysorbate 20, Tetrasodium EDTA, Panax ginseng extract, Manganese dioxide, Propylene glycol, Aminomethyl propanol, CI 77891

[Eva Victoria]

Thank you for this!
This new formulation looks even lighter than the previous one!

Tinosorb S = BEMT
Tinosorb M = MBBT

Here is the Ingredients list for Soltan Face SPF 50+
AQUA, C12-15 ALKYL BENZOATE, GLYCERIN, OCTOCRYLENE, BUTYL METHOXYDIBENZOYLMETHANE, ISOTRIDECYL SALICYATE, ISONONYL ISONONANOATE, C18-36 ACID GLYCOL ESTER, POLYGLYCERYL-3 METHYGLUCOSE DISTEARATE, POLYSILICONE-15, METHYLENE BIS-BENZOTRIAZOLYL TETRAMETHYLBUTYLPHENOL, BIS-ETHYLHEXYLOXYPHENOL METHOXYPHENYL TRIAZINE, BUTYROSPERMUM PARKII BUTTER, DIMETHICONE, TITANIUM DIOXIDE, DIETHYLHEXYL BUTAMIDO TRIAZINE, SORBITAN STEARATE, PHENOXYETHANOL, CETYL ALCOHOL, POLYSORBATE 20, MICA, DECYL GLUCOSIDE, TOCOPHEROL ACETATE, PARFUM, XANTHAN GUM, ACRYLATES/VINYL ISODECANOATE CROSSPOLYMER, SODIUM ASCORBYL PHOSPHATE, VITIS VINIFERA, SUCROSE COCOATE, DIMETHYL OXAZOLIDINE, POTASSIUM HYDROXIDE, TETRASODIUM EDTA, BUTYLENE GLYCOL, PROPYLENE GLYCOL, PANAX GINSENG, MANGANESE DIOXIDE, AMINOMETHYL PROPANOL, CI 77891


(Some of the TiO2 used is Optisol: TiO2 with Manganese Dioxide. It gives increased UVA protection up to 385 nm and has a stabilizing effect on AVO as well).

It is a pity though that it gets to be a mess in humid weather.

This product has been reformulated lately:

http://www.boots.com...0-50ml_1207078/

Aqua, C12-15 alkyl benzoate, Butylene glycol, Octocrylene, Cyclopentasiloxane, Butyl methoxydibenzoylmethane, Tridecyl salicylate, Cyclohexasiloxane, Bis-ethylhexyloxyphenol methoxyphenyl triazine, Dimethicone, Cetearyl alcohol, C18-36 acid glycol ester, Titanium dioxide, Phenoxyethanol, Lauryl methacrylate/glycol dimethacrylate cross polymer, Acrylamide/ammonium acrylate copolymer, Methylene bis-benzotriazolyl tetramethylbutylphenol, Glyceryl stearate, Potassium cetyl phosphate, PEG-100 stearate, Diethylhexyl butamido triazone, Mica, Polyisobutene, Parfum, Dimethiconol, Tocopheryl acetate, Xanthan gum, Sodium PCA, Sodium ascorbyl phosphate, Vitis vinifera seed oil, Decyl glucoside, Glycerin, Dimethyl oxazolidine, Polysorbate 20, Tetrasodium EDTA, Panax ginseng extract, Manganese dioxide, Propylene glycol, Aminomethyl propanol, CI 77891

[nupi]

Thanks for the feedback!

Humidity on its own is not too bad on it, its really sweat that creates a mess of it - be it humid or dry. Now of course, in humid weather sweat is usually quite likely but I dont think its fair to say humidity itself creates a mess of it...

[TheFountain]

I've been using burnout spf30 for the past month and a half and it seems to hold up better than any other sunscreen I have tried in humid, hot weather. The 19% zinc oxide you really cannot go wrong with. Why are chemical filters still being seen as the holy grail of sun protection? I don't get it.

[Eva Victoria]

ZnO (esp. in high concentration and non-nano particle size) gives a very UVA II and UVA I protection. It is often used together with OMC for elegance and higher UVB protection. The only drawback of this fantastic mineral is that it can be whitening on the skin.

Many people will not have the whiteness on their face hence the alternative is sunscreens containing Mexoryl (or other chemical sunscreens). Because they are the easiest to obtain. I personally am not a big fan of L'Oreal's products. They provide good UV protection (at least the EU versions) but they contain far too much alcohol and the chemical filters should be encapsulated for less irritation potential.
Many chemical sunscreens are far too irritating for people with sensitive skin and for children. ZnO is a far better option.

What is good with Tinosorb filters is that the molecular size is big so they have very little potential to be able to penetrate into the skin hence irritate it. They both are fully photo-stable filters. They also have stabilizing efffect on AVO.
What I also like about them is that unlike Mexoryl SX, their PH is above 5 so they again have much less irritating potential.
Both are covering the whole UVB and UVA II and UVA I spectrum providing superiour UV protection even in low concentration par excellence!

Drawback: Tinosorb M in higher concentrations can be as whitening as ZnO in higher concentrations.
Tinosorb S: oil-soluble filter. Can make sunscreens less desirable (like all other oil soluble filters). Though there is new version: Tinosorb S-Aqua to counteract exactly this.

I've been using burnout spf30 for the past month and a half and it seems to hold up better than any other sunscreen I have tried in humid, hot weather. The 19% zinc oxide you really cannot go wrong with. Why are chemical filters still being seen as the holy grail of sun protection? I don't get it.

[ali30]

I've been using burnout spf30 for the past month and a half and it seems to hold up better than any other sunscreen I have tried in humid, hot weather. The 19% zinc oxide you really cannot go wrong with. Why are chemical filters still being seen as the holy grail of sun protection? I don't get it.

Firstly, id like to say thanks to Eva for all your advice and help on this forum, its very invaluable and much appreciated:)

Looking on this and other forums its seems like "BurnOut Eco-Sensitive SPF 32 Sunscreen" is one of the most popular of the mineral type sunscreens being used at the moment.

here are the ingredients...

Active Ingredient: Zinc Oxide 18.6%.

Other Ingredients: Deionized Water, Capric/Caprylic Triglycerides, Vegetable Glycerin, Sorbitol, Imperata Cylindrica (Root) Extract, Caprylyl Glycol, Lecithin, Arabidopsis Extract, Plankton Extract, Aloe Vera, Vitamin C, Vitamin E, Citric Acid.

Now my concerns are the lack of perservatives, high pH which could mean bacterial growth, no SPF boosting ingredients and lack also of a film former for even distribution.

Is it worth using this sunscreen or should i stick to something like "La Roche-Posay Anthelios 50 Mineral Ultra Light Sunscreen Fluid SPF 50 and PPD 21". Which has only 11% TO2, but all the bells and whistles ingredients!


INCI: Titanium Dioxide 11%

Water, Isododecane, C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, Dimethicone, Undecane, Triethylhexanoin, Isohexadecane, Styrene/acrylates Copolymer, Nylon-12, Caprylyl Methicone, Butyloctyl Salicylate, Phenethyl Benzoate, Silica, Tridecane, Dicaprylyl Carbonate, Dicaprylyl Ether, Talc, Dimethicone/peg-10/15 Crosspolymer, Aluminum Stearate, Pentylene Glycol, Peg-9 Polydimethylsiloxyethyl Dimethicone, Alumina, Polyhydroxystearic Acid, Phenoxyethanol, Magnesium Sulfate, Propylene Glycol, Caprylyl Glycol, Aluminum Hydroxide, Peg-8 Laurate, Stearic Acid, Disteardimonium Hectorite, Diethylhexyl Syringylidenemalonate, Tocopherol, Propylene Carbonate, Cassia Alata Leaf Extract, Maltodextrin, Benzoic Acid, Peg-9.

[Eva Victoria]

Thank you for your kind words.

You are right about tha high PH for sunscreens containing ZnO. PH should be over 6.5 preferably over 7. ZnO tends to aglomerate in systems with lower PH. Therefore to achieve stable emulsion with ZnO the PH of the final formulation shold be in the alkali range. As you rightly pointed out, bacterial growth is favoured in higher PH. Normally sunscreens with ZnO (high PH) have several preservatives that have synthetically boosting effect on each others' performances.

And it indeed lacks film-former that would contribute to even distribution of the sunscreen agent.

It also lacks coating on the ZnO and NaCl for stabilizing the formula.

I have never seen this sunscreen but I wonder whether Lecithin is enough as the sole emulsifier.

The only thing I have against LRP Anthelios Mineral is that even if it is larger particle size of TiO2 is used it will only protect up to 370 nm. (See Croda Solaveil XT http://www.croda.com...47&r=265&p=3523

There is another sunscreen from L'Oreal Group under Skinceuticals that is exactly the sam sunscreen as Anthelios Mineral but it contains 5% ZnO and 6% TiO2. Maybe it is a better alternative when it comes to UVA protection: Skinceuticals: Physical Fusion UV Defense SPF 50

Ingredients: Active: Titanium Dioxide (6%), Zinc Oxide (5%)
Other: Water, Dimethicone, Isododecane, C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, Undecane, Triethylhexanoin, Isohexadecane, Nylon-12, Caprylyl Methicone, Butyloctyl Salicylate, Phenyl Benzoate, Styrene/Acrylates Copolymer, Silica, Tridecane, Dicaprylyl Carbonate, Dicaprylyl Ether, Talc, Dimethicone/PEG-10/15 Crosspolymer, Aluminum Stearate, Pentylene Glycol, PEG-9 Polydimtheylsiloxyethyl Dimethicone, Alumina, Polyhydroxystearic Acid, Phenoxyethanol, Magnesium Sulfate, Caprylyl Glycol, Iron Oxides, PEG-8 Laurate, Disteardimonium Hectorite, Triethoxycapylylsilane, Tocopherol, Propylene Carbonate, Artemia Extract, Benzoic Acid, C9-15 Fluoroalcohol Phosphate, PEG-9

I've been using burnout spf30 for the past month and a half and it seems to hold up better than any other sunscreen I have tried in humid, hot weather. The 19% zinc oxide you really cannot go wrong with. Why are chemical filters still being seen as the holy grail of sun protection? I don't get it.

Firstly, id like to say thanks to Eva for all your advice and help on this forum, its very invaluable and much appreciated:)

Looking on this and other forums its seems like "BurnOut Eco-Sensitive SPF 32 Sunscreen" is one of the most popular of the mineral type sunscreens being used at the moment.

here are the ingredients...

Active Ingredient: Zinc Oxide 18.6%.

Other Ingredients: Deionized Water, Capric/Caprylic Triglycerides, Vegetable Glycerin, Sorbitol, Imperata Cylindrica (Root) Extract, Caprylyl Glycol, Lecithin, Arabidopsis Extract, Plankton Extract, Aloe Vera, Vitamin C, Vitamin E, Citric Acid.

Now my concerns are the lack of perservatives, high pH which could mean bacterial growth, no SPF boosting ingredients and lack also of a film former for even distribution.

Is it worth using this sunscreen or should i stick to something like "La Roche-Posay Anthelios 50 Mineral Ultra Light Sunscreen Fluid SPF 50 and PPD 21". Which has only 11% TO2, but all the bells and whistles ingredients!


INCI: Titanium Dioxide 11%

Water, Isododecane, C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, Dimethicone, Undecane, Triethylhexanoin, Isohexadecane, Styrene/acrylates Copolymer, Nylon-12, Caprylyl Methicone, Butyloctyl Salicylate, Phenethyl Benzoate, Silica, Tridecane, Dicaprylyl Carbonate, Dicaprylyl Ether, Talc, Dimethicone/peg-10/15 Crosspolymer, Aluminum Stearate, Pentylene Glycol, Peg-9 Polydimethylsiloxyethyl Dimethicone, Alumina, Polyhydroxystearic Acid, Phenoxyethanol, Magnesium Sulfate, Propylene Glycol, Caprylyl Glycol, Aluminum Hydroxide, Peg-8 Laurate, Stearic Acid, Disteardimonium Hectorite, Diethylhexyl Syringylidenemalonate, Tocopherol, Propylene Carbonate, Cassia Alata Leaf Extract, Maltodextrin, Benzoic Acid, Peg-9.

[happy lemon]

Eva, do you have an equipment to cross check the UVA protection index of a sunscreen and a laboratory microscope to see how big the ZnO is? If so, may I send one/two sunscreen to you to do the test?

[Eva Victoria]

Eva, do you have an equipment to cross check the UVA protection index of a sunscreen and a laboratory microscope to see how big the ZnO is? If so, may I send one/two sunscreen to you to do the test?

I have access to a lab that can check both the final particle size and the UVA protection (length in nm) in vitro and the uniformity of the sunscreen (balance between UVB, UVA II, UVA I).

[happy lemon]

Eva, do you have an equipment to cross check the UVA protection index of a sunscreen and a laboratory microscope to see how big the ZnO is? If so, may I send one/two sunscreen to you to do the test?

I have access to a lab that can check both the final particle size and the UVA protection (length in nm) in vitro and the uniformity of the sunscreen (balance between UVB, UVA II, UVA I).

Eva, is it fine with you if I send the sunscreen to you to do the test?

[happy lemon]

I've been using burnout spf30 for the past month and a half and it seems to hold up better than any other sunscreen I have tried in humid, hot weather. The 19% zinc oxide you really cannot go wrong with. Why are chemical filters still being seen as the holy grail of sun protection? I don't get it.

I wanted to love Burnout but found it quite white on my skin. Cannot put it on when I go to work.

How about you? Any whitecast on your skin?

[TheFountain]

I've been using burnout spf30 for the past month and a half and it seems to hold up better than any other sunscreen I have tried in humid, hot weather. The 19% zinc oxide you really cannot go wrong with. Why are chemical filters still being seen as the holy grail of sun protection? I don't get it.

I wanted to love Burnout but found it quite white on my skin. Cannot put it on when I go to work.

How about you? Any whitecast on your skin?

Very very slight, but I am also caucasian, very fair skinned, so it more or less already matches my skin tone. It's protective capacity seems on par with any high end chemical filter, without the free radical inducing side effects. Its ability to withstand extreme humidity is amazing. I wore it out today in 70% humidity and it held up, did not even run at all.

Edited by TheFountain, 02 August 2011 - 12:45 AM.

[Eva Victoria]

Eva, do you have an equipment to cross check the UVA protection index of a sunscreen and a laboratory microscope to see how big the ZnO is? If so, may I send one/two sunscreen to you to do the test?

I have access to a lab that can check both the final particle size and the UVA protection (length in nm) in vitro and the uniformity of the sunscreen (balance between UVB, UVA II, UVA I).

Eva, is it fine with you if I send the sunscreen to you to do the test?

Answered in a PM yesterday. Wondering whether you have received it?

[Eva Victoria]

I would like to add that there are organic UV filters that do not generate free-radicals. Uvinul A, Tinosorb S and Tinosorb M along with Mexoryl XL. Of course, none of these filters are approved in the US.
The absolute worst free-radical generators are AVO and OCR. (And to be on the fair side uncoated TiO2 and some coated versions of TiO2 also generate free-radicals in the presence of UVR).

I've been using burnout spf30 for the past month and a half and it seems to hold up better than any other sunscreen I have tried in humid, hot weather. The 19% zinc oxide you really cannot go wrong with. Why are chemical filters still being seen as the holy grail of sun protection? I don't get it.

I wanted to love Burnout but found it quite white on my skin. Cannot put it on when I go to work.

How about you? Any whitecast on your skin?

Very very slight, but I am also caucasian, very fair skinned, so it more or less already matches my skin tone. It's protective capacity seems on par with any high end chemical filter, without the free radical inducing side effects. Its ability to withstand extreme humidity is amazing. I wore it out today in 70% humidity and it held up, did not even run at all.

[nupi]

I would like to add that there are organic UV filters that do not generate free-radicals. Uvinul A, Tinosorb S and Tinosorb M along with Mexoryl XL. Of course, none of these filters are approved in the US.
The absolute worst free-radical generators are AVO and OCR. (And to be on the fair side uncoated TiO2 and some coated versions of TiO2 also generate free-radicals in the presence of UVR).

Then why do all European chemical sunscreens I've ever come across contain liberal amounts of OCR? Should I try to get one without?

[happy lemon]

Answered in a PM yesterday. Wondering whether you have received it?

HI Eva, I got it; sorry that I didn't answer it because I was on a trip. Pls check mail.

[happy lemon]

Very very slight, but I am also caucasian, very fair skinned, so it more or less already matches my skin tone. It's protective capacity seems on par with any high end chemical filter, without the free radical inducing side effects. Its ability to withstand extreme humidity is amazing. I wore it out today in 70% humidity and it held up, did not even run at all.

I am Asian; maybe that is why I find it a bit white on my yellow skin.

[Eva Victoria]

I would like to add that there are organic UV filters that do not generate free-radicals. Uvinul A, Tinosorb S and Tinosorb M along with Mexoryl XL. Of course, none of these filters are approved in the US.
The absolute worst free-radical generators are AVO and OCR. (And to be on the fair side uncoated TiO2 and some coated versions of TiO2 also generate free-radicals in the presence of UVR).

Then why do all European chemical sunscreens I've ever come across contain liberal amounts of OCR? Should I try to get one without?

Very good question, Nupi!
There are several answers to this question.
1. OCR stabilizes in a great extend the notoriously photo-unstable AVO. (But so does Tinosorb S and Tinosorb M along with other EU approved UV filters).
2. OCR is approved world wide. Formulators do not need to work on several formulations.
3. After the hysteria about OMC in the EU the very good alternative was to replace OMC (is also world wide approved) with another world wide approved UVB filter: OCR. In the "bonus" you get also a better stability for AVO. (One should note that OMC destabilizes AVO even more than it is capable alone).
It was/ is believed that OCR is a non-irritating UV-filter, but this starts to be questioned since there are more and more people report allergic reactions to it. (It can of course be due to its smaller molecular weight, that makes it possible to penetrate deeper into the skin).

The molecular weight of the most commonly used UV filters are under 500 Dalton. Substances that have lower molecular weight than 500 Dalton penetrate more effectively in the skin.
OMC MOL: 290, AVO: 310, OCR: 361, Phenylbenzimidazole Sulfonic Acid: 40.
Comparison: Tinosorb S: 627.81, Tinosorb M: 658.87, Polysilicone-15: 1600.

Attached Files

•  MOL.jpg   655.48KB   24 downloads

Edited by Eva Victoria, 02 August 2011 - 05:02 PM.

[nupi]

Most of the more recent European sunscreens do not even contain AVO anymore [1] so the stabilizing property itself is probably not the issue here?

As for the world wide regulatory approval, I am not sure if that is truly the reason, I mean if you are going to put Tinosorb into it, you already locked yourself out of the US market so why bother? On the other hand, I will hold it for the European manufacturers that they dont deny us a superior product simply because they cannot sell it world-wide...

[1] which considering the suspicions about its hormone activity certainly is a good thing. Also high SPF US sunscreens with high AVO contents also sting on my skin whereas most Tinosorb based ones are perfectly fine as long as I dont smear them in my eyes. I never tried the Mexoryl ones, the pricing is just beyond and also my father had an allergic reaction to Anthelios (prescribed by a dermatologist, no less) but tolerates the Boots one just fine, so way pay 10x more...

[Eva Victoria]

I would like to add that there are organic UV filters that do not generate free-radicals. Uvinul A, Tinosorb S and Tinosorb M along with Mexoryl XL. Of course, none of these filters are approved in the US.
The absolute worst free-radical generators are AVO and OCR. (And to be on the fair side uncoated TiO2 and some coated versions of TiO2 also generate free-radicals in the presence of UVR).

Then why do all European chemical sunscreens I've ever come across contain liberal amounts of OCR? Should I try to get one without?

Very good question, Nupi!
There are several answers to this question.
1. OCR stabilizes in a great extend the notoriously photo-unstable AVO. (But so does Tinosorb S and Tinosorb M along with other EU approved UV filters).
2. OCR is approved world wide. Formulators do not need to work on several formulations.
3. After the hysteria about OMC in the EU the very good alternative was to replace OMC (is also world wide approved) with another world wide approved UVB filter: OCR. In the "bonus" you get also a better stability for AVO. (One should note that OMC destabilizes AVO even more than it is capable alone).
It was/ is believed that OCR is a non-irritating UV-filter, but this starts to be questioned since there are more and more people report allergic reactions to it. (It can of course be due to its smaller molecular weight, that makes it possible to penetrate deeper into the skin).

The molecular weight of the most commonly used UV filters are under 500 Dalton. Substances that have lower molecular weight than 500 Dalton penetrate more effectively in the skin.
OMC MOL: 290, AVO: 310, OCR: 361, Phenylbenzimidazole Sulfonic Acid: 40.
Comparison: Tinosorb S: 627.81, Tinosorb M: 658.87, Polysilicone-15: 1600.

I would also like to add that there is a commercially available product that contains OCR and AVO encapsulated in silica-beads. (It also exist with OMC alone).
The enormous positive side of this product is that the UV filters have much less ability to penetrate into the skin. AVO is stable. Free-radical generation from OCR and AVO are dramatically reduced. It is water soluble providing a very pleasant skin-feel in the end-product. Less oil needed in the final product (better skin-feel). Has a very good SPF and PFA boosting ability compared to product with same amount of UV filter concentration in free form used.
Drawback: expensive.
And I have never seen a comercially available sunscreen/ daily-wear product with this innovative ingredient. Though I heard that there is one sunscreen in the US available with the encapsulated OMC variant. But I do not know which sunscreen it is.

(I have recently experimented with this active with the addition of Tinosorb S and Tinosorb M and the test-panel result showed that 98% believed it was a "regular" moisturizer since it felt so light. The measurements of the SPF and PPD and DIN UVA values also showed remarkably high values compared to expected results. Basically, the sunscreen had a 5 star rating in the Boost star-rating system with uniform UVB, UVA II and UVA I protection up to 388 nm. At 400 nm it still provided a filtering ability of 93% (which corresponds to about PPD 15 at 400 nm). Most sunscreens (LRP and Bioderma included) do not provide any or provide negligible protection after 375nm. Most US sunscreens will not provide adequate UVA protection full stop. And the very few that do are the ones that contain ZnO in higher concentration (>15%) in the form of final particle-size larger than 150 nm.

[nupi]

How about starting your own sunscreen line, Eva Victoria? Sounds like a product I would buy if pricing is reasonable :P

[Eva Victoria]

How about starting your own sunscreen line, Eva Victoria? Sounds like a product I would buy if pricing is reasonable :P

Am working on it and if everything goes according to plan then I have a line (with complete skin-care) out in the market by next spring! But this one is a very exclusive line so prices will not be very economical I'm afraid. But my next project is a line for pharmacies that will also be reasonably priced!

[Eva Victoria]

Most of the more recent European sunscreens do not even contain AVO anymore [1] so the stabilizing property itself is probably not the issue here?

As for the world wide regulatory approval, I am not sure if that is truly the reason, I mean if you are going to put Tinosorb into it, you already locked yourself out of the US market so why bother? On the other hand, I will hold it for the European manufacturers that they dont deny us a superior product simply because they cannot sell it world-wide...

[1] which considering the suspicions about its hormone activity certainly is a good thing. Also high SPF US sunscreens with high AVO contents also sting on my skin whereas most Tinosorb based ones are perfectly fine as long as I dont smear them in my eyes. I never tried the Mexoryl ones, the pricing is just beyond and also my father had an allergic reaction to Anthelios (prescribed by a dermatologist, no less) but tolerates the Boots one just fine, so way pay 10x more...

The ones that belong to Beiersdorf (Eucerin, Nivea) contain AVO (OCR, Tinosorb S, TiO2), the ones belonging to L'Oreal all contain AVO. Avene's new line contain AVO (OCR, Tinosorb S & M, TiO2), Bioderma also has AVO (OCR, Tinosorb S & M). Soltan as well.
Which sunscreen are you referring to? And if they don't have AVO what do they use as UVA filter? Uvinul A?

I personally not a great fan of Mexoryl either. As you say they sting badly on the skin. But it can also be because the PH value tends to be lower for the sunscreens from L'Oreal group. The Tinosorb filters as one can see on the protection properties of the UV filters (attached earlier) are also cover more of the UV-range additionally covering it more evenly than Mexoryl filters. And they also provide more balanced protection even alone or in combination with Tinosorb S and M than the 2 Mexoryl filters combined but not added other UV filters to the formulation.

[nupi]

Right, I should have checked whether AVO goes by any of its various other names :P