272 replies to this topic

[Infernity]

dimasok, I used to had some similar complicated thought. The only difference between us- these thoughts made me an immortalist.


-Infernity

[dimasok]

Then they were not that similar after all... you want to immortalize the very species that I can't stand... just that thought alone delinates a huge gap between us mate.

[RighteousReason]

Then they were not that similar after all... you want to immortalize the very species that I can't stand... just that thought alone delinates a huge gap between us mate.

It's impossible to achieve immortality such that everyone remains as we know them today. There will not only be boosts in length of life, but also in volume of intelligence in humans.

[Athanasios]

Then they were not that similar after all... you want to immortalize the very species that I can't stand... just that thought alone delinates a huge gap between us mate.

This sounds like projection to me.

[Infernity]

Then they were not that similar after all... you want to immortalize the very species that I can't stand... just that thought alone delinates a huge gap between us mate.

So tell me, you floating-nonrandom-structure-of-energy-you, why don't you change your structure of energy and kill yourself if you can't handle this one? They say nature aspires to chaos, because it needs the 'most less' change of energy. IOW, why are you still alive and having this convo with me, nothing really matters. We are just built of small almost massless elements called energy.


-Infernity

[dimasok]

We are wobbling physical matter and no matter what we think of the future or whatever happens in the future, the universe wouldn't care. Yes we could do lots of things (immortality would be a pinnacle) but do you agree with me that the universe is the way it is no matter what we do?

I don't kill myself because it is meaningless, I think i've already said it. Life and Death are meaningless.

[RighteousReason]

the universe wouldn't care.

Of couse the Universe wouldn't care, why would you expect it to??

Life and Death are meaningless

You pretend as if the realization that there is no God to give some almighty 'ultimate meaning' is cause for extreme depression and confusion. No. Meaning is a property of the mind, not of the Universe (except insomuch as the mind is a property of the Universe). If life and death have meaning *to you*, then they have meaning, *to you*. Life and death have meaning *to someone* either way, whether or not they have meaning *to you*, so this assertion is already false.

[dimasok]

Life and death have meaning *to someone* either way, whether or not they have meaning *to you*, so this assertion is already false.

Try to convince a solipsist of that...

[Athanasios]

Solipsism is ignorant if it doesnt take into the account, even in theory to be tested, of what other's self can or cannot do. Would you rather have life have meaning to you or not? If another can have life that is meaningful... Not bridging that gap is masochism, and in most people they are in denial of their own masochism. They conclude that apathy is better than facing the responsibility of life.

[Infernity]

We are wobbling physical matter and no matter what we think of the future or whatever happens in the future, the universe wouldn't care. Yes we could do lots of things (immortality would be a pinnacle) but do you agree with me that the universe is the way it is no matter what we do?

I don't kill myself because it is meaningless, I think i've already said it. Life and Death are meaningless.

Yes I totally know what you're talking about and I agree.
But all this being meaningless, is so infinite that it makes think there must be a reason or all this. That's what *I* live, to find out. Otherwise i is meaningless, and that is why I say I ave become immortalist- cuz all is f-cking stupid and I need to know better.

Savvy?

I think though we do have an agreement somewhere don't we.

-Infernity

[stephenszpak]

dimasok

I've been reading The Screwtape Letters recently. You might get something
out of them(?). -Stephen Szpak

The VERY LONG excerpt below from letter XV:


The humans live in time but our Enemy destines them to eternity. He therefore, I believe, wants them to attend chiefly to two things, to eternity itself, and to that point of time which they call the Present. For the Present is the point at which time touches eternity. Of the present moment, and of it only, humans have an experience analogous to the experience which our Enemy has of reality as a whole; in it alone freedom and actuality are offered them.


Our business is to get them away from the eternal, and from the Present. With this in view, we sometimes tempt a human (say a widow or a scholar) to live in the Past. But this is of limited value, for they have some real knowledge of the past and it has a determinate nature and, to that extent, resembles eternity. .It is far better to make them live in the Future. Biological necessity makes all their passions point in that direction already, so that thought about the Future inflames hope and fear. Also, it is unknown to them, so that in making them think about it we make them think of unrealities. In a word, the Future is, of all things, the thing least like eternity. It is the most completely temporal part of time—for the Past is frozen and no longer flows, and the Present is all lit up with eternal rays. Hence the encouragement we have given to all those schemes of thought such as Creative Evolution, Scientific Humanism, or Communism, which fix men's affections on the Future, on the very core of temporality. Hence nearly all vices are rooted in the future. Gratitude looks to the past and love to the present; fear, avarice, lust, and ambition look ahead.

http://members.fortu...ape_letters.htm

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Excerpt from a guide to The Screwtape Letters:

Screwtape is demon, of some authority.

The "patient" is a man, human

Remember the reverse since from demon's view.

The Enemy = God
Father = Satan
Not everything written is the truth; demons lie.


http://pages.prodigy...n/screwtape.htm

[attis]

Death is simply stopping. Don't stop, then you don't die. If you get my point.

[stephenszpak]

Hi attis (ie. Bridget?)

Everyone dies attis. That is, the body ceases to function. No act of will power
can change that. The soul lives on.

The Screwtape Letters were written while two separate wars were going on
(the way it is today too).

Screwtape writes in Letter V :

And how disastrous for us is the continual remembrance of death which war enforces. One of our best weapons, contented worldliness, is rendered useless. In wartime not even a human can believe that he is going to live forever.

-Stephen

[stephenszpak]

dimasok

I don't know if you are still here or not. I have read some quotes by
Emile Cioran. All and all he is not encouraging. I did come across this
however:

We are afraid of the enormity of the possible.


http://www.brainyquo...e_m_cioran.html

I submit to you the answer you search for is not death (I believe you
said it is too late for that), but to be born
a second time in a different way (it's not too late for this).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pessimism characterized his later works, which many critics trace back to events in his childhood (in 1935 his mother is reputed to have told him that if she had known he was going to be so unhappy she would have aborted him)...When Cioran's mother spoke to him of abortion, he confessed that it did not disturb him, but made an extraordinary impression which led to an insight about the nature of existence ("I'm simply an accident. Why take it all so seriously?" is what he later said in reference to the incident).

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Emil_Cioran




P.S. As much as I enjoy posting, others can comment too, unless all
here are set in their ways.

-Stephen

[attis]

Everyone dies attis. That is, the body ceases to function. No act of will power can change that.

ORLY? To be honest, if you dodge an oncoming car, lose weight, or simply live in a safer environment you have changed your fate from dying to living.

The soul lives on.

Proof? According to science there is no soul. Not even the quantum states of neural pathways could be considered a soul either. So, please present some proof.

[stephenszpak]

attis

To be clearer, everyone eventually dies.

There is no proof that you have a soul. However the truth can only be
one way or the other.

-Stephen

[RighteousReason]

To be clearer, everyone eventually dies.

Everyone that is dead eventually died. Whether or not it is possible to literally live forever is unclear with our current knowledge of physics.

A word like 'soul' is just used to refer to the mystique surrounding the human mind. There is never any reason to invoke the supernatural as an explanation for anything.

[JohnDoe1234]

Yeah... and eventually the "mystique" surrounding the mind will disappear... I give it 25 years max.

[dimasok]

The one thought I keep coming back to with regards to immortality is that "life is all this and nothing more - you get what you get". It leaves absolutely zero room for imaginatio (say, extra dimensions, afterlife) etc, and while I would also consider all of these magnificent mind-inventions as "meaningless", I would really like to be in a place that doesn't resemble life in any way or form.

[RighteousReason]

The one thought I keep coming back to with regards to immortality is that "life is all this and nothing more - you get what you get". It leaves absolutely zero room for imaginatio (say, extra dimensions, afterlife) etc, and while I would also consider all of these magnificent mind-inventions as "meaningless", I would really like to be in a place that doesn't resemble life in any way or form.

That's because when you say "life is all this and nothing more", you can't possible be holding in your mind every single possible thing life is about. If you get off this topic and go out there and live (and READ) you will realize there is infinite room for imagination in what we already know this world is capable of (read a lot of good science fiction), and keep in mind we don't know everything- not even close.

[stephenszpak]

The one thought I keep coming back to with regards to immortality is that "life is all this and nothing more - you get what you get". It leaves absolutely zero room for imaginatio (say, extra dimensions, afterlife) etc, and while I would also consider all of these magnificent mind-inventions as "meaningless", I would really like to be in a place that doesn't resemble life in any way or form.

dimasok

You seem to need a change. Take it from me, if you become a Christian, your life
will be different.

(I should be around throughout Wednesday.)

-Stephen

[Infernity]

Is it just me or deathists take over the institute?


-Infernity

[dimasok]

stephenszpak
You're kidding me right? Please tell me it's a joke. I hate everything to do with religion. HATE, do you understand what i'm saying? I won't utter the name "Christianity" even if a gun will be pointed in head. God dammit, that was a joke right? I'd rather believe in Santa Claus.


Hankkon
This is where you're wrong. There are in infinite number of possible thoughts, that is all but the amount of things we can experience in the modern or future worlds are pretty much the same and btw there are an infinite number of thinkable thoughts precisely because there is nothing to write about which lets a mind go rampant!

Besides, no matter what will be up with science fiction, it's still a part of reality and reality is:
a) boring
b) repetitive (imagination, believe it or not, falls under that category)

Besides, I wonder, with the advent of immortality, we will still have to do the things we've always done in our lives: that is, eat, work, keep our bodies in shape (otherwise diseases will take over or whatever, isn't that what I read in the recommendations around here?), have sex, go see movies, yadda yadda yadda.

Do you want to do all these things for eternity?

Edited by dimasok, 03 October 2006 - 04:27 PM.

[Athanasios]

Besides, no matter what will be up with science fiction, it's still a part of reality and reality is:
a) boring
b) repetitive (imagination, believe it or not, falls under that category)

To who? Do you realize that your arguments are created by your viewpoint? This means that if you had a different viewpoint, your arguments may seem falsely based?

You have control over your viewpoint. So...

[Athanasios]

Besides, no matter what will be up with science fiction, it's still a part of reality and reality is:
a) boring
b) repetitive (imagination, believe it or not, falls under that category)

To who? Do you realize that your arguments are created by your viewpoint? This means that if you had a different viewpoint, your arguments may seem falsely based?

[kylyssa]

There are in infinite number of possible thoughts, that is all but the amount of things we can experience in the modern or future worlds are pretty much the same and btw there are an infinite number of thinkable thoughts precisely because there is nothing to write about which lets a mind go rampant!

Besides, no matter what will be up with science fiction, it's still a part of reality and reality is:
a) boring
b) repetitive (imagination, believe it or not, falls under that category)

You honestly think there's not enough change in the world even in a single "average" lifespan to create new experiences much less in a thousand year lifespan? Think about this - if you plucked a man from 1106 AD, do you think he'd find nothing different, strange, or novel about the changes that have occurred since then? The world changes and new possibilities open up over time even in our current lifespans.

Besides, I wonder, with the advent of immortality, we will still have to do the things we've always done in our lives: that is, eat, work, keep our bodies in shape (otherwise diseases will take over or whatever, isn't that what I read in the recommendations around here?), have sex, go see movies, yadda yadda yadda.

Do you want to do all these things for eternity?

Sure, I'd love to do all those things for eternity! Maybe you need to see a therapist if none of the activities in your life bring you enjoyment?

[JohnDoe1234]

Besides, I wonder, with the advent of immortality, we will still have to do the things we've always done in our lives: that is, eat, work, keep our bodies in shape (otherwise diseases will take over or whatever, isn't that what I read in the recommendations around here?), have sex, go see movies, yadda yadda yadda.

Do you want to do all these things for eternity?

There is a fatal flaw in your reasoning... you are thinking in a linear fashion. (I recommend 200mg of Ray Kurzweil)

You are assuming that with hundreds of years of advancement that we would still be eating? taking care of bodies? giving a passing thought to disease? No, we wouldn't, an those are not suggestions that you hear around here except from people who do not understand what the singularity is about... Imagine if you said to a man in the 1500's that he could live forever, and picture him saying this:

Besides, I wonder, with the advent of immortality, we will still have to do the things we've always done in our lives: that is, eat, plow the fields, feed the mules, (so they can carry our supplies on long journeys, isn't that what I read in the recommendations around here?), milk the cows, worship the king's god, have sex, go watch Shakespeare, yadda yadda yadda.

Do you want to do all these things for eternity?

Now... think about what he his not understanding... he doesn't realize that the human race is advancing, he can't imagine Roller Coasters, iPods, Stereo systems, cars, calculators, chili-cheese Fritos, air planes, trains, spaceships, computers... etc... he doesn't realize how much fun he could have with this stuff and that is the exact same mistake you are making. You fail to realize that there is more out there! if the suggestions you are providing are the only things you can find to keep yourself busy for eternity... then don't take the damn pill, save it for someone who will make use of it dude...

Our understanding of the universe and our origins will become much more rich and hopefully explainable, there will be forms of art that are unimaginable by today’s standards, making love will be orders of magnitude better than it is today (wait... is that possible?) but anyway... I really wish you would look a little deeper into what we stand for before you make irrational comments like the above, because clearly if someone has decided to take the pill it is because they have figured out how to make use of themselves... not sit and watch movies and have sex all day as you suggested

[DJS]

Besides, no matter what will be up with science fiction, it's still a part of reality and reality is:
a) boring

Sensual information whores require constant stimulation. Barring inordinate sensual distraction, cognitions, by their very nature, are compelled to the act of data acquisition. Boredom connotes a failure to adequately fulfill this most primary of imperatives, and would thus be negatively assessed in most instances. Boredom can be counteracted by the "surprise" that comes with discovery. Unforunately, the problem for most cognitions is the possession of unsatisfactory heuristics that keep the focus on finite fields of inquiry with finite supplies of "surprise". Hence the wide spread bafflement by run-of-the-mill cognitions when confronted with the bravado of exceedingly sophisticated cognitions whose playground is the infinite.

Clearly, the advent of indefinite lifespans will result in novel selection pressures that put a premium on long term psychological stability.

[dimasok]

josephjah
Ok, then why don't u tell me what other possibilities do you foresee? By the way, all the advancements you mentioned had absolutely nothing to do with reality. Before Roller Coasters, iPods, cars, calculators, spaceships, trains, planes, we were still living on Earth, enveloped by space, possessing consciousness, etc etc.

The things you mentioned are not mind-blowing at all and even if someone comes up with teleporation tommorow, i would absolutely NOT be flabbergasted with any of it since any self-respecting reality should have had this already at the outset and not have other people write about it as if it was some distant possibility. They made our existence more comfortable, more fun, etc. They haven't changed reality. Reality cannot be changed by anything. Immortality would just immortalize ourselves on this fabric, it won't modify the fabric itself - do you know what i'm saying?

I'm not against the things you propose guys, hell even my reality arguement is not something i'm terribly concerned about. What I'm concerned about is that with the way society functions today and the way society is structured - I wouldn't want to live for eternity in that shithole.

You guys take the premise and twist it at an angle. You "hope" that the future society will be devoid of murderers, suicidal people, crime, etc etc when in reality:
a) you can't guarantee any of that, particularly with the way things are today.
b) you will stiil have to tend for your basic needs (unless you become Cyborgs, and then what?)

And to euphemize it all, you go further proposing some preposterous singularity concept - someone read the Omega Point bullshit a bit too much.

I have no problem with advancements, if that's how it goes - FINE! But spare me the science fictiony stuff. Confluence of nature and men? Connecting consciousness to a machine? AFAIK, no one knows what consciousness is, it might be beyond the human intellect just like quantum mechaincs is beyond the intellect of a dog

Have you even wondered why are you here to question all of that? Who had given you the power to do that? To come to these conclusions that maybe in a billion years we will reach singularity? You're great guys, really, but your naivete has no limits. You shoot for the stars when you need to conquer Earth first.

What if before all of that progres takes place, a comet 30 times the size of the Sun hits Earth destroying it altogether? I know that the odds of that are not that big, but still bigger than the Universe dying by a heat wave.

Edited by dimasok, 03 October 2006 - 08:06 PM.

[DJS]

a) you can't guarantee any of that, particularly with the way things are today

What if before all of that progres takes place, a comet 30 times the size of the Sun hits Earth destroying it altogether?

When exactly did you get the impression that people were making guarantees? [glasses] [lol] Futurism represents a particular agenda. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you're an individual of logic (which I sense you are), then I suggest you determine for yourself what is logically possible, followed by what is logically probable, followed by what is desirable.

At least from my perspective, technological progress is a very significant historical phenomenon. Whether we will ever be able to change or create the "fabric of reality" is an open, highly speculative and currently irrelevant topic. Yet technology and its enormous effect on how civilization functions within reality can not be denied. Accordingly, observant minds have started to put two and two together and ask the question, "where is this taking us?" If you see no pattern, no directionality -- if you can't muster, or are afraid to muster, even an intuitive hunch about the nature of your existence then I bid you good day. I have no patience for those who lack the courage to ask the really dangerous questions.

There are a multitude of things that are wrong with this world. The question is how to remedy these inequities as quickly and as thoroughly as possible.

And there are three possible answers to the question. Forward, backward, or standstill.

I choose forward. )