272 replies to this topic

[Infernity]

Death from the universe aspect, or mine on the universe at last, is merely an extreme change of the energy structure.

I am surprised that there arent more "dont cares". I am a dont care. I dont care what death is, life is too short!

They say "curiosity killed the cat", I say, "screw what they say"....


-Infernity

[JohnDoe1234]

They say "curiosity killed the cat", I say, "screw what they say"....

I say, The cat would die anyway [thumb]

[biknut]

I vote,
I Honestly Don't Know, because I don't.

I have a hard time believing in Death. I haven't seen any evidence for it. I never heard of anyone that had a "Near Oblivion Experience."
The weight of evidence, flimsy as it is, seems to point to no Death.

[JohnDoe1234]

Hmm. How do you mean that? are you saying that you don't beleive that people simply cease to exist once their bodies completely shutdown? as in an after-life?

[biknut]

Hmm. How do you mean that? are you saying that you don't beleive that people simply cease to exist once their bodies completely shutdown?

I guess that's about right. That's what seems more likely to me based on the flimsy evidence I've seen. However, I'm in no hurry to test this theory.

[swami]

I too believe that the option list is incomplete....had we known what death is, we wouldn't have ever died.....so the list may only be completed when we can live and live forever.....Instead of asking what death is we should ask: Who are we? Why can't we get rid of this deadly death? Why do we need to die if we have to come back?
We fail an exam to clear it next time....We die now to live again....Why not pass now itself

[JohnDoe1234]

Interesting, I see what you mean, but also, how would one define an Near Oblivion Experience? I mean, it seems much easier to imagine/hallucinate a god or a memory, than it is to imagine/hallucinate oblivion seeing as we really don't even understand what that would be like in the first place.... there would be no dark and no light, no matter, no time, nothing... how can we imagine that? we can't, we can only create a scenario and then apply those rules to it. So it would seem almost impossible to imagine non-existance, or non-reality given that our brains are custom tailored for this universe.

[biknut]

Oblivion? These Scientiests think otherwise.

The Times September 06, 2006

British Association for the Advancement of Science


Theories of telepathy and afterlife cause uproar at top science forum
By Mark Henderson, Science Editor



SCIENTISTS claiming to have evidence of life after death and the powers of telepathy triggered a furious row at Britain’s premier science festival yesterday. Organisers of the British Association for the Advancement of Science (the BA) were accused of lending credibility to maverick theories on the paranormal by allowing the highly controversial research to be aired unchallenged.
Leading members of the science establishment criticised the BA’s decision to showcase papers purporting to demonstrate telepathy and the survival of human consciousness after someone dies. They said that such ideas, which are widely rejected by experts, had no place in the festival without challenge from sceptics.

The disputed session featured research from Rupert Sheldrake, an independent biologist who is funded by Trinity College, Cambridge, that claims to have found evidence that some people know telepathically who is calling them before they answer the telephone.

Other presentations came from Peter Fenwick, a doctor who thinks deathbed visions suggest that consciousness survives when people die, and from Deborah Delanoy of the University of Hertfordshire, whose work suggests that people can affect the bodies of others by thinking about them.

http://www.timesonli...2344804,00.html

[JohnDoe1234]

Pathetic, I would like to to see some evidence, if not... it's not worth anyone's time.

[dimasok]

I honestly can't understand you people. Oblivion is the most perfect form of existence, better than being a god, better than being anything basically, no more questioning, just plain peace.

Death is not the real evil here, but birth is. As Emile Cioran says, since we were born - now we fear death. Had we not been born, that dread wouldn't exist. The dead solved every problem and every riddle of the universe.

Why would anyone want to extend their subjective existence? Just look at the culture today, look at politics, look at man-woman relationship, look at the competition, pressures, etc etc that is just so meaningless.

We are born, grow up, die. I think that's more than enough to witness and laugh at the ridicuouslness of this world and of the "meaning" people try to ascribe to anything at all.

The best solution, unattainable by anyone, is not being born. Or at the very least, being born "still-born". Ever since I was 12, be it success or failure, I have always always failed to see how can anyone take this existence seriously, since it is nothing more but a farcical exercise at futility. I'm so convinced of that (as Cioran was) that anyone who contradicts me is seen by me as being a charlatan or a complete fool.

And here you propose to further extend life. I think it would be better if we would all just self-destruct and that's it with the only dream of mine being born before man, to not have to witness how dreadful it is that the world exists and we exist within it.

I'll finish with the quote by Schopenhauer:
We can regard our life as a uselessly disturbing episode in the blissful repose of nothingness.

[JohnDoe1234]

I honestly can't understand you people. Oblivion is the most perfect form of existence, better than being a god, better than being anything basically, no more questioning, just plain peace.

And here you propose to further extend life. I think it would be better if we would all just self-destruct and that's it with the only dream of mine being born before man, to not have to witness how dreadful it is that the world exists and we exist within it.

Ok... then why are you wasting your time on this forum? why haven't you committed suicide yet? you obviously have no purpose here if what you say is true, so unless you back your statements up with reason... it won't mean anything to anyone.

Death is not the real evil here, but birth is. As Emile Cioran says, since we were born - now we fear death. Had we not been born, that dread wouldn't exist. The dead solved every problem and every riddle of the universe.

Death is not inherently evil, it is just what happens, and it turns out that about... oh lets see here... 98% of humans will go out of there way to keep from dying (e.g. car accidents, poison, being shot by a convenience-store robber... etc), so why would we want to just sit down with our opposable thumbs tied and do nothing?

Why would anyone want to extend their subjective existence?

Don't be intentionally lazy, you're on a website devoted to extending the human life-span, do a quick search through the forum... there is no shortage of reasons.

Just look at the culture today, look at politics, look at man-woman relationship, look at the competition, pressures, etc etc that is just so meaningless.

Hmm.... what kind of clothes to you wear? and why?, do you have a girl/boyfriend?, did you ever play freeze-tag in elementary school? dodge-ball?...
These are all basic components of being human, Fitting in, Propagating the species, and polishing your competitive skills, it is nothing short of what has kept this species alive! it is hardly 'meaningless'!

The best solution, unattainable by anyone, is not being born. Or at the very least, being born "still-born". Ever since I was 12, be it success or failure, I have always always failed to see how can anyone take this existence seriously, since it is nothing more but a farcical exercise at futility. I'm so convinced of that (as Cioran was) that anyone who contradicts me is seen by me as being a charlatan or a complete fool.

How can we take it seriously? um... let me think here... because it is all that we have ever known? how’s that? now, I would like you to explain why we 'Shouldn't' take it seriously.
Also... you if anyone here would be considered the charlatan, your views don't even make sense, you even misuse the word 'existence' oblivion is not a form of existence! and just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn’t make them a fool, I challenge you to bring all of the arguments that you can muster to the table here!

I'll finish with the quote by Schopenhauer: We can regard our life as a uselessly disturbing episode in the blissful repose of nothingness.

If it is in fact so disturbing, why haven't your rejoined the 'blissful repose of nothingness'?

[Infernity]

I honestly can't understand you people. Oblivion is the most perfect form of existence, better than being a god, better than being anything basically, no more questioning, just plain peace.

Do you remember this "peace" before being a fetus?

Death is not the real evil here, but birth is. As Emile Cioran says, since we were born - now we fear death. Had we not been born, that dread wouldn't exist.

It isn't evil, indeed, it's just what people don't want to go through. Same as injections are not evil, but we hate them.

The dead solved every problem and every riddle of the universe.

Ah except the fact you don't know you solved anything, or perhaps *you* just dunno that *you* ____________... (everything fits).

Why would anyone want to extend their subjective existence? Just look at the culture today, look at politics, look at man-woman relationship, look at the competition, pressures, etc etc that is just so meaningless.

Maningless? Well, it is meaningless jst because eventually they die and whatever happened will no more be- but if we live endlessly- there will always be a meaning, and we shall aspire to pefection.

We are born, grow up, die. I think that's more than enough to witness and laugh at the ridicuouslness of this world and of the "meaning" people try to ascribe to anything at all.

You just said that's meaningkess, why don't you set up your mind.

The best solution, unattainable by anyone, is not being born. Or at the very least, being born "still-born". Ever since I was 12, be it success or failure, I have always always failed to see how can anyone take this existence seriously, since it is nothing more but a farcical exercise at futility. I'm so convinced of that (as Cioran was) that anyone who contradicts me is seen by me as being a charlatan or a complete fool.

Oh but if you wasn't born, who would enlight us as you just did LOL.... why don't you just commit a suicide, I mean if you think you shouldn't have been born... It's just we think differently.... Savvy?

And here you propose to further extend life. I think it would be better if we would all just self-destruct and that's it with the only dream of mine being born before man, to not have to witness how dreadful it is that the world exists and we exist within it.

It is *something*, it is balanced. It has good and bad stuff. There is no bad without good and there is no good without bad, for if everything was "good" (impossible situation)- then the smallest thing would be considerred terror because there is always "better".
Moreover one's bad is anotherone's good.
And the fact we *Have* whatever- is just amazing and beautiful- better bad than nothing at all for you can think, and you live- and you LIVE in order to LEARN, LEARN in order to SURVIVE and SURVIVE in order to LIVE.

I have concluded when we know EVERYTHING- we also SURVIVE EVERYTHING, meaning- we LIVE FOREVER.
That's one of the most impossible things.
But as I say, the hard shall be done today, and the impossible shall be done tomorrow. And that is the reason that to learn the tomorrow and know what will happen- you must exist tomorrow. - - And tomorrow never comes- it stays tomorrow forever. And that is why I must live that long.

I'll finish with the quote by Schopenhauer:
We can regard our life as a uselessly disturbing episode in the blissful repose of nothingness.

Think that he wouldn't be able to say that if he wan't here. Nor you , nor us to tell that to.


Savvy?




-Infernity

[dimasok]

I'm sorry guys, but unless someone gives me an answer why am I here, where am i going after i die (i never proposed that i know, but oblivion seems to be the obvious choice) or what is the meaning of life (and no, i don't believe in individual meanings, that is simply not enough), i see no reason to support immortality.

You're proposing to extend the intolerable (the global one), how's that for a reason to choose nothingness over this existence? We crept out of somewhere, and now we have to fight to stay here, and for what? To what end?

Immortality you say? Hmm... WHY? To keep reproducing, to keep working, to keep learning? WHY?! I would accept these precepts had there been someone from above who told me specifically that this is the path I need to take and the result will be that or that, but instead, there is no one to cry to and I can only spill my bile here... no one consulted me when I was born, that is the most flagrant injustice of them all. My birth was an accident, so why take it all so seriously?

Whatever compromises the supremacy of consciousness is what matters. Hell, even a conscious fruit would face the same problem as we do. Can u imagine a fruit wanting an afterlife or trying to attain immortality?

Someone asked here why haven't I killed myself. Well, first of all, I have my parents and I wouldn't want to cause them pain. Now you will ask what do I care if everything is meaningless, well it is, but they seem to think it isn't (hell, they don't even care. I'm ready to bet they have't given a second of thought to philosophy in thier entire lives) so let them wallow in their own happiness... but the more global reason I haven't done that is because you always end up killing yourself too late. I betrayed everything when I was born, now there is no way out. Suicide seems to me meaningless since after my birth, it's ALSO a part of what I consider meaningless.

The only thing that seems to make me feel better is that there are lots and lots of people out there in the world that seem to take in the world from a different angle, whose lives are entirely different, so maybe Nature didn't intend for someone like me to be born in the first place. The more people there are in the world, different in every conceivable way from me, the very idea of that fills me with positive emotions, and that is one of the only ways that I seem to get by in the world.

Yes, everything is meaningless... but as long as these people will not see it like I do, I'm fine with whatever you guys come up with. I don't agree with it for myself, but for current and next generations - that is welcome.

I will never understand why am I here and why am am I experiencing my subjective experience, basically, why am I me and why apparently with my death I lose everything, despite the fact that the world keeps on living after me just as it did with me. How come at the same time I'm everything and nothing? And immortality will just prolong my questioning that is bound to lead nowhere.

I would recommend reading Emile Cioran's "The Trouble with being Born" if you want to get a glimpse of what I'm referring to.

[JohnDoe1234]

I'm sorry guys, but unless someone gives me an answer why am I here, where am i going after i die (i never proposed that i know, but oblivion seems to be the obvious choice) or what is the meaning of life (and no, i don't believe in individual meanings, that is simply not enough), i see no reason to support immortality.

Well, The best answer that I can come up with is the fact that you were born... you were given a life, consciousness, and a very powerful brain, why not try to get the best use out of it?

You're proposing to extend the intolerable (the global one), how's that for a reason to choose nothingness over this existence? We crept out of somewhere, and now we have to fight to stay here, and for what? To what end?

Are you proposing to creep back to that somewhere? I see no reason to.

Immortality you say? Hmm... WHY? To keep reproducing, to keep working, to keep learning? WHY?! I would accept these precepts had there been someone from above who told me specifically that this is the path I need to take and the result will be that or that, but instead, there is no one to cry to and I can only spill my bile here... no one consulted me when I was born, that is the most flagrant injustice of them all. My birth was an accident, so why take it all so seriously?

There are endless answers and arguments to this, but the one that most applies to me is this: I have an EXTREMELY powerful desire to understand why I am here, and I realize that without life-span augmentation I probably will not live long enough for that question to be answered, so that’s why I am eating healthy, and taking the best care of my body as I can in the hopes that I will live long enough to take advantage of life-extension tech in the coming decades, and I am also learning as much as I can about AI and I am actively designing my own AGI architecture because I feel that AGI is our ticket to this promise land.

Whatever compromises the supremacy of consciousness is what matters. Hell, even a conscious fruit would face the same problem as we do. Can u imagine a fruit wanting an afterlife or trying to attain immortality?

Assuming that the fruit had the ability to think, let alone design a way for it to live forever, it would probably have the smarts to create a seed AI, in which case it would be able to use this seed AGI as a stepping stone to a higher existence were it could realize how it was only a mere fruit to begin with... why should we sit here and do nothing?

Someone asked here why haven't I killed myself. Well, first of all, I have my parents and I wouldn't want to cause them pain. Now you will ask what do I care if everything is meaningless, well it is, but they seem to think it isn't (hell, they don't even care. I'm ready to bet they have't given a second of thought to philosophy in thier entire lives) so let them wallow in their own happiness...  but the more global reason I haven't done that is because you always end up killing yourself too late. I betrayed everything when I was born, now there is no way out. Suicide seems to me meaningless since after my birth, it's ALSO a part of what I consider meaningless.

That was me, I am still at a loss here, if you truly believe that you are right, then there would be no reason why you would stick around other than to try to convince everyone to commit mass-suicide, because if your existence is meaningless ours must be as well, correct? This leads me to two possible conclusions:
1. You are going through some sort of extreme depression, and you haven't crossed the suicide threshold yet (please don't) or....
2. You are just trying to get a nice kick out of posting stuff that cannot be effectively argued for or against in the present.
... so which is it?

The only thing that seems to make me feel better is that there are lots and lots of people out there in the world that seem to take in the world from a different angle, whose lives are entirely different, so maybe Nature didn't intend for someone like me to be born in the first place. The more people there are in the world, different in every conceivable way from me, the very idea of that fills me with positive emotions, and that is one of the only ways that I seem to get by in the world.

Hmm... not sure what to say here other than WHY do the positive emotions matter if they are meaningless? that also points me towards my first conclusion stated above.

Yes, everything is meaningless... but as long as these people will not see it like I do, I'm fine with whatever you guys come up with. I don't agree with it for myself, but for current and next generations - that is welcome.

And I respect your point of view, but I am merely attempting to help you out here... there are so many joys in life that one cannot take them all in at once so why not try to hang around a bit longer to enjoy them and possibly see the answer to your questions?

I will never understand why am I here and why am I experiencing my subjective experience, basically, why am I me and why apparently with my death I lose everything, despite the fact that the world keeps on living after me just as it did with me. How come at the same time I'm everything and nothing? And immortality will just prolong my questioning that is bound to lead nowhere.

Hmm... I personally plan on figuring it out someday, no matter how long it takes, I see nothing more important than that.

I would recommend reading Emile Cioran's "The Trouble with being Born" if you want to get a glimpse of what I'm referring to.

This upcoming fall break I have from school I will go check it out that way I can better relate to your point.

Look, before I was familiar with the whole singularity idea I would frequently question my existence, and I often felt similar to you (as you explain yourself), but that never stuck on me more than a day or two, I have found a passion in life.... designing an AGI, it consumes me, and I think someday I will be very proud of it, so I think it is a matter of finding what you like to do.... what are your interests? hobbies? do you find anything joyful in life?

[RighteousReason]

Hey buddy,

I'm sorry you are so depressed, and although you claim you are not suicidal, I am getting very distinctly the OPPOSITE impression. There is a lot out there to live for! Try reading a good book, or learn to play a musical instrument (or even just find some good music to listen to!). Play a sport, a game, or a competitive hobby of some kind (this can be very enriching for your outlook on life!). It's good to find internal motivation, whether its initial stimulus be from a person, an idea, or any kind of profound experience (or even just a whole new perception of any of the previous).

There are a lot of things out there that make me glad to be alive and to actually want and desire life- regardless of how philosophically confusing the nature of my own existence may be (indeed simply the pursuit of this question, regardless of even its answerability, illuminates just one of the infinitely pleasurable qualities and capabilities of life and intelligence). On the other hand, although the death of another person can spark a mundane or even a revolutionary new greatness to the lives of others- I would argue that the lives of others would be *better* if the person were alive rather than dead, regardless of how powerful an effect that death can bring.

Personally I have lost loved ones before, and whatever good has come out of that, nothing can replace the infinite love, beauty, creativity and uniqueness of the conscious, sentient, person that had once been. A fading, fuzzy (or even a lasting, lucid) memory of a person does no true justice to the real thing.

Happiness *is* the never-ending journey for happiness, and it would to take forever to find the end of it.

[braz]

We've got ourselves a Nihilist here ! WOOT!

[Infernity]

dimasok, didn't you read anything I wrote?! I answered you!


Anyways, the meaning of life, the one you must know in order to want to live forever- well, what about living limitlessly IN ORDER TO FIND THAT ANSWER!


-Infernity

[dimasok]

braz - yep...

infernity - i read everything you wrote m8, and not only you, but everyone. But there is nothing to find even when if we live limitlessly! The crossroads where we find ourselves today are pretty much the same as it was since the initial ciesta of larval soirees started, they just didn't know about it...

[JohnDoe1234]

Yeah, Infernity hit it right on, you either (1) Are a very inquisitive person, and love to learn and discover new things, or (2) Are a very creative person, and have found something that keeps you content and allows you to effectively relay your creativity to others.

And I think it is safe to say that over 98% of the members on this board apply to one or both of these statements, and if they didn't then I would venture to say that their lives have no meaning other than to consume resources and distract others from their goals.

So before you declare life meaningless, you must first take into account how you are using it, right now you are engaging a number of people in an argument that causes them to think rather deeply, I would say that is proof that your life is not meaningless, even if you cease to exist someday (I plan not to!)

When I look at elderly people I think... wow, that must really be hard to be one of the last generations of people who won't live to more than ~80 years. They can feel their body giving way. Roughly 20 years after they pass away very few people will ever give their life a second thought, no one will care what kind of car they drove, no one will care how many features their cell phone had or what kind of clothing they wore... Other than the care and support that they gave their family, most things about them will be forgotten, and it is just a fact of life... And because of that, I don't want to die, I don't want to be forgotten, I don't want to sit and rot in the ground... I want to keep living, learning, creating, and experiencing the joys of life.... why leave it because you see it as meaningless?... if anything, oblivion would be meaningless.

[RighteousReason]

When I look at elderly people I think... wow, that must really be hard to be one of the last generations of people who won't live to more than ~80 years

I look at elderly people and think... "please sign up for cryonics, we don't want to lose you forever"

[JohnDoe1234]

Agreed... but it would be near impossible to convince them to spend many tens of thousands of dollars on something that would seem to alien at a 'last-minute' notice...

For instance, the place that I work at (newpaper processing warehouse) I was talking to this old guy (71 years old he told me), it almost seemed as if he knew was I was thinking because after he introduced himself he started babbling about his smoking, and how he has tried (other than that) to take the best care of his body, and he started saying things like "I wish I could see what it was like 100 years from now... how big our cities are, and what society would be like" and so I educated him on cryonics and he said that even if he could afford it, he wouldn't do it because it would in effect be 'defying god's plan' him, taking his life in his own hands... and so on... and now he knows about the singularity, he knows what AGI is... and he is perfectly fine with that, but he just does'nt want to do something as radical as cryonics. That is when I am really crying inside!

[Infernity]

infernity - i read everything you wrote m8, and not only you, but everyone. But there is nothing to find even when if we live limitlessly! The crossroads where we find ourselves today are pretty much the same as it was since the initial ciesta of larval soirees started, they just didn't know about it...

First the development speed equally increases.

Second- yet in order to know something that hasn't been figured and has no theoretical formula- you must live at that moment to know.

-Infernity

[braz]

dimasok, you are worrying too much for things you shouldnt be. Go out and have fun man, do the things that make you feel good. I can tell you honestly that everyone goes through the stage of questioning and doubting, and its up to you to find answers to your own questions. However, dont let it consume all of your time. Explore the art of feeling good [thumb]

[dimasok]

I don't think that me saying that life is meaningless has anything to do with what other people do because of the questions I raise or what traces I leave in them upon short or long-term contact.

I just don't get it how is it that sleeping 27/7 is not the perfect harmony, the ideal default that everyone should strive for, instead of trying to extend this catastrophe that the cosmos should be ashamed of.

I'm alive because I refuse and will continue to refure till my last breath the acceptance of any facet of this existence. Not only is it inherently disadvantageous for us because of consciousness, but over the course of history, which cannot be referred to by any term other than stupid (wars, inventions, discriminations, bla bla bla), humans have erected a slew of social norms, laws and stigmas which continue to stipulate pretty much everyone one way or another. Instead of expiating the very existence, the very foundation of consciousness by at least attemping to remove at least 99% of modern civilization (to make life manageable), humans have further exacerbated the problem. They went ahead and built layers upon layers of foundation that our consciousness has to perceive and abide by. Hell, if I were god, I would have been so god damn upset that my cosmic malicious experiment had failed, that I would smite the human race just for attempting to make it even worse than it had been in the first place. Middle-age crisis? Lonelyness? Depression? Disease? War? Obesity? etc etc (put here any modern, past or future problems that are sure to make themselves known at some po int) - MEANINGLESS BULLSHIT. The only question reverberating in my ears is "WHY ME? WHY CONSCIOUSNESS? WHY DEAL WITH OTHER PEOPLE? WHY CRY? WHY SUFFER? WHY TALK? WHY DO ANYTHING AT ALL"? and to further demonstrate how empty all of this is, the only one who answers me is ME with my OWN CONSCIOUSNES, perhaps modified by other people's more positive perception of the same reality (with the same consciousness that answers them, obviously). Tune in to Dr-Phill to see people endlessly complain about meaningless problems and see answers dolled out to them in a unceasingly placating manner that are equally meaningless- that just brings a devilish smile to my face.

No, I will never support immortality or life extension. Why? It's meaningless and pointless and tiresome. Some people wake up every morning happily trudging they way to work, knowing that upon day's end, they'll have familes and kids and what not waiting for them at home. I wake up and curse the cosmos for not letting me sleep for eternity experiencing nothing, having to wake up to work or whatever, walking around the street, looking at the corpses of other people, these masses of walking/running/copulating/suiciding/etc atoms that pass they time at leisure or suffering until they die (which could happen any moment). Oh and I can hear the sounds of keyboard clacking right now, with people making cliche-ridden proposals they've heard elsewhere to go maybe see a psychologist or get a girlfriend (had plenty of them), go to a party (same here), change the work environment, BLA BLA BLA BLA, so if any of your replies shall embrace the very categories I find unacceptable or hollow (hint: being a human), please I beg you, keep them at bay. I've come here not to have a revelation bordering on divinity, but to hear more enlightened opinions of people who understand a thing or two of what the next thousand or millions years have in store for us and if you're going to degrade to the level of advice of the modern human community, i'd rather not hear them at all (the internet is full of self-help books, life-improvement, etc etc). I'm not sure exactly what i'm looking for here, but I'd venture that the best opinion anyone would be able to provide here would be "accept the universe as it is (i.e. godless), forget about the questioning, join our collective search for immortality and support our cause which might give you more time to question (which is obviously not true) and just enjoy life because that is all you know since your birth". So, I ask you, am I the exception from the rule? Isn't it exactly the same as being in a sect with the only difference being that instead of awaiting the coming of the messiah (which, as some will remember, was clouded with the fall of a comet), we will now be expecting immortality?

Yes Death is unwelcome in that the pre-death suffering will probably be painful and agonizing, but that is the only unenticing aspect of it, with the other side being the best solution Nature had found to please everyone.

Oh and btw, if all of us would be God, able to create our own universes, etc - that would still be meaningless. More fun - absolutely, but MEANINGLESS.

And if being God is meaningless, how are you expecting me to treat any attempts at immortality whilst remaining a human?

Oh and btw, I very much doubt that any of you guys will be alive by the time the reserach goes into 1st gear, and if all of you are searching for a way to introduce immortality whilst being alive in the process, then isn't it pipe-dreamish to hope to want to live to the "seed giving sprouts" stage of the technologies? And aren't you going to be too god damn old (with no age reversal medicine in sight) to enjoy any of it? Isn't it masochistic to want to wallow in reality in any state of self-observing matter just because you're too skittish to join that putative oblivion?

p.s.
The only caveat here is that i'd want to die painlessly, go to sleep at night and never wake up and I would pursue any alleviating substanes that could help me in my task.

Edited by dimasok, 28 September 2006 - 11:23 PM.

[Athanasios]

Beauty is never tiresome.

The people you see that are happy are not that way because they were given the best of situations. It is because they made the choice. It may sound weird, but it is a choice. A choice to realize that bad things happen, there are dull moments, etc, yet see that this negativity is meaningless. You must rise above the mundane to enjoy the beauty of each day. If I were to choose between meaningless negativity and meaningless joy and beauty, I think I will take the joy. If you choose otherwise, it is nobody's fault but your own.

There is war, depression, disease, pain, suffering, etc. It is up to each person to give what they can to help alleviate these things, but what must come first is care for oneself. If you are unhealthy, become as healthy as possible in your circumstances. If you are in financial troubles, work in whatever way to alleviate this. If you are depressed, learn to enjoy anything reguardless how small. ETC. Many people cower to life because they do not want to face the tremendous responsibility that each of us have. You must have a childlike innocence to face the harsh realities in which we live. In this childlike innocence you will find meaning.

[dimasok]

That is exactly the kind of advices i specifically asked to keep at bay. I appreciate your input, but it would be better off addressed elsewhere, since

* We don't have no god damn responsibility to any thing or anyone. If you want to take about justice and responsibility, how about we blabber on the cosmic injustice that is the root of all evil? Or about the injustice of being born? Someone has to give us the answer we long after, and if there is no creator that could give us a list of reasons why we crept out of somewhere, then the fault falls naturally on the ones that reared us, doesn't it? We have no responsibility. We were nothing, and now we are something; Is that like detention or 90 year old (or, if immortality works, eternal) punishment? Sorry to disappoint you, but this ain't school. You are not going to get to the office and no one will call your parents Want a good analogy? Life is like the worst day in school, when you got F's on every subject and death is like returning home and making out with 100 of the world's hottest babes standing in beeline, pining to pleasure every fiber of your being and blissfully dying because you can orgasm no more. So, the onus is on that whatever that made us to provide a reasonable answer and the responsibility is his/her, even if it's true nature is more akin to Santa Claus than to any realisitic creator.

* I must have a childlike innocence? For what? I must remedy my troubles? For what? You see. This question never ceases to amaze me - it stonewalls any attempt by the other party to explain anything since it is a language category and language categories are meaningless by their very nature. I'm not trying to sound condescending here, I just wish that people would stop repeating themselves in every post.

* You are exactly what you described "child-like innocent" so congrats, you've achived the very thing that you championed (Sartre would be damn proud)

Edited by dimasok, 28 September 2006 - 11:42 PM.

[kgmax]

Dimasok, seek help.

I enjoy life, parts of it suck but dealing with the sucky parts in a productive way gets me through it. Parts of life are great. Really really great ! Dang, I almost forgot how lucky I am to be alive. I am glad I read this post.

Now back to brooding on how much my job sucks.

[JohnDoe1234]

I think we have differring meanings for the word "meaningless", besides the dictionary meaning...

My Definition: Something that does not contribute to a higher goal or objective, something that distracts someone from making progress, or something that in context, has no relevance.

(And correct me if I am misinterpreting you)
Your Definition: Mine + (What is there other than continuosly learning, building, and designing?...where does it end?... in the end, who do we brag about our acheivements to?)

So, with that in mind I will try to answer your question as best I can: Currently, in the grand-scheme of things... I see no meaning in life or existence... however, I see meaning in attempting to try to find meaning, this has been said time and time before but no one knows exactly why we are here or why there is something rather than nothing... as of right now it is beyond our knowledge and even comprehension, so why not try to reach out to the one area of technology that *could* help prove or disprove your theory in your lifetime (depending on how old you are)?

You say you are the exception, I say that you are thinking too hard into something that everyone else has put on the back burner because it can't be solved right now. You don't see people debating over who owns which astroids in the astroid belt do you? that is because it is technologically decades away and there is no possible way that with current technology that we can keep track of such a type of land, and regulations associated with it... so why not just put the biggest question humanity has ever faced on the back burner as well?, or atleast work towards something that could yeild answers (with exponentially more questions) in the next few decades?

Infact, this debate, because of its current limits, is the single most pointless and meaningless thing that any of us can engage in... other than soap operas...
so to put it bluntly... Get over it! We can't figure it out, not yet atleast. You are no closer to an answer than you were when you posted yesterday, or the day before!

[Athanasios]

We don't have no god damn responsibility to any thing or anyone.

That is where you are wrong. Not only do you have responsibility for yourself, but you are responsible for society as you are part of it and dependant on it.

As for language, it is very hard to communicate a holistic viewpoint through language without sounding like jibberish to someone that cannot meet you on that level.

BUT, this holism is the source of beauty, joy, and meaning.

[JohnDoe1234]

Couldn't have said it better!