159 replies to this topic

[zoolander]

I don't really blend in with the modern day fashion punks. I'm punk because of my mind set and not what I wear.

[David]

I don't really blend in with the modern day fashion punks. I'm punk because of my mind set and not what I wear.

Do you have a music site? Feel free to drop in on mine at http://www.myspace.com/hydraphonicaa

David

PS: I am NOT a punk

Edited by David, 08 July 2008 - 02:09 PM.

[Shannon Vyff]

Oh so you are that Dave http://www.imminst.o...l=hydraphonicaa

I totally am still waiting for you to add me as a friend, been a long time now

So you read a lot, but don't post much, and you saw that O'Rights was back... but you are a very fun poster! So I'd say you have much to contribute to "Longevity" (much more important that penis size anyway-for male or female lovers), since we need humor--and the Australians seem to be the most fun posters around here

[thefirstimmortal]

POSTED UNDER THREAT OF CENSORSHIP.
maestro949

I like the idea of eliminating the FSF forum from the active topics display or at least providing the option to eliminate it. Just as it's important for people to have the freedom to speak their mind, others should be free to adjust the signal to noise ratio, particularly when it applies to completely random ramblings unrelated to the meme.

The Freedom Forum was supposed to be equal in all respects to the other forums. It does not show up in the active topics list. It was settled at the adoption of the constitution that it was to be separate but equal. Evidence exists in the debates, personal messages and also phone conversations where it was understood that it would be an equal forum. I believe we should carry ourselves back to the spirit of those debates and try to live up to what was agreed upon.

Otherwise, the freedom forum is a muffled forum, and a lesser forum than all the others. The primary purpose of the forum was to insure that all ideas would be allowed to enter the "competition of the market."

I’m pretty sure I advanced the argument about previous or prior restraints, which are methods of suppressing speech and expressions before they are even spoken or expressed. I think you will find that at the time the Constitution was adopted, there was substantial agreement that prior restraints were incompatible with the free Speech Forum.

The right of free speech is guaranteed every member that he may reach the minds of willing listeners and to do so there must be opportunity to win their attention. Keeping the Freedom Forum off the active topics list restricts an individual's right to speech and expression in our forums by limiting the volume of that expression. Or in the words of CHIEF JUSTICE REHNQUIST, the First Amendment means little if it permits government to "allo[w] a speaker in a public hall to express his views while denying him the use of an amplifying system."

The current system will insure that a member will not be able to reach the minds of willing listeners by limiting exposure one gets.

But Maestro949 advances a wonderful solution. I can’t think of a more perfect solution. Giving people the freedom to choose what forums show or do not show up in their active page. Is this doable?

[Athanasios]

First Immortal, what was your opinion of Mind's post?:

I have witnessed the increase in spam and the Navigators have done a good job keeping it under control. Also, Imminst has some enemies that would love to disrupt the flow of things around here. Navigators have done a super job keeping the forums from becoming "wild and hairy". Keeping the Free Speech Forum (FSF) off the active topics list and non-googleable is not against the constitution in my view - and it has been a successful method for keeping the forums more focused on the mission.

The FSF being turned into a sub-forum was most likely and oversight when Bruce/Kamil upgraded the software or when Caliban re-organized the sections. I seriously doubt there was any direct intention to make it a sub-forum in order to subvert the constitution. It was an error. Changing it back into its full forum status is required by the constitution and does not require a vote.

Onto the "libertarian" aspect of this discussion. It is a question of tackling both free speech and freedom of assembly. Freedom of assembly means people are free to form a group to do whatever lawful activity they desire (and set their own rules). The people who have freely "assembled" here at Imminst decided to have a Free Speech FORUM, how to display that forum, and how to moderate other forums. These things were all discussed among the members and mostly implemented through votes - therefore I do not see any ergregious violation of any freedoms. The decision to keep the FSF off the the active topics list and non-googleable were not implemented by fiat. It was a group discussion. The policy has worked well in my view. It does not violate the constitution and it keeps the focus on productive immortalist discussions (as mentioned above, I am fairly sure the sub-forum status was an error).

If we were going to change these policies, it would take another discussion and a vote. I would have to see some pretty good detailed arguments in order to change my mind.

[thefirstimmortal]

Let’s dissect this Cnorwood
Mind says

I have witnessed the increase in spam and the Navigators have done a good job keeping it under control.

First of all, the increase in spam isn’t because we have a Free Speech Forum. And I have said nothing that prevents the removal of spam, so the point is irrelevant. And yes Cnorwood, I do acknowledge that may of you Navigators give your time without compensation to monitor the regular forums. My hats off to all of you on that issue.

Mind says

Also, Imminst has some enemies that would love to disrupt the flow of things around here.

Having a fully functioning Free Speech Forum doesn’t follow that it will make it easier for such disruptions to occur.

Keeping the Free Speech Forum (FSF) off the active topics list and non-googleable is not against the constitution in my view - and it has been a successful method for keeping the forums more focused on the mission.

I disagree with Mind on this wholeheartedly for reasons I have already advanced.

Mind says

The people who have freely "assembled" here at Imminst decided to have a Free Speech FORUM, how to display that forum, and how to moderate other forums. These things were all discussed among the members and mostly implemented through votes - therefore I do not see any ergregious violation of any freedoms. The decision to keep the FSF off the active topics list and non-googleable were not implemented by fiat. It was a group discussion.

Perhaps you could find that thread that got the Free Speech Forum bumped of the active topics list so that I might read it. And I would like to review these votes.

If we were going to change these policies, it would take another discussion and a vote. I would have to see some pretty good detailed arguments in order to change my mind.

Well, that sounds like a job for me.

You know Cnorwood, the same tired arguments that were used against the set up of the Free Speech Forum will be used as the reasons why it shouldn’t be in the active topics list. People in power are if nothing else, predictable. It could be disruptive, it could be offensive, it will somehow, (although it’s never really articulated) interfere with the mission, ect, ect, ect.

I am amazed that there are those who still question the value of freedom of speech here, those who argue that it threatens stability and endangers progress; those who still consider freedom of speech an imposition and not the indigenous expression of every people's demand for freedom. What has always struck me about the argument against free speech Cnorwood, is that it is never made by the members, but by those in charge, never by the powerless, but by the powerful, never by the voiceless, but by those whose voices are all that can be heard.

Let us put this argument once and for all to the only test that matters, the choice of every one here to know more or know less, to be heard or be silenced, to stand up or kneel down.

[zoolander]

I am currently not in the band because I'm focusing on my completing my PhD by the end of 2008. Here's a fairly amateurish you tube clip taken from a live gig. I'm the apathetic one up the front singing

[David]

[quote name='zoolander' date='9-Jul 2008, 05:42 AM' post='249914']
I am currently not in the band because I'm focusing on my completing my PhD by the end of 2008. Here's a fairly amateurish you tube clip taken from a live gig. I'm the apathetic one up the front singing

Mate, I see you aint a punk either............ Noice late 2000's pop moosic. I don't know how to put the screen on like you have but you can check me out here

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

from the early 90's in a messy unit called Toychild. Like yourself, I be attempting to sing over the racket. And yes, it's a protest song............

Shannon, you been added. Check, if it isn't there let me know.

David

Edited by David, 09 July 2008 - 02:22 PM.

[Prometheus]

Hate to be distracting you from the PhD but I must say its cool.

[thefirstimmortal]

Guday Mayt,
Oh, bugger, I’ve been so into this debate Dave, I forgot to ask, how’s the wife? And how are Fender and Marshall doing? Are you still living in the tropical temperate zone of North Queensland?
Wochareckon Dave, think we’ll ever get this Free Speech Forum restored?
Your friend the Yank

Edited by thefirstimmortal, 09 July 2008 - 07:52 PM.

[zoolander]

Dave, that clip you provided wouldn't be at the Noise bar would it.

Yeah that song of ours I provided was pop punk. We're mainly hardcore(ish) though. http://www.myspace.com/amphetishpunks

[David]

Zoolander, It was in a bar on the north shore in Sydney. The name escapes me. It was a lotta fun but. I think we may have been supporting the Fireballs. Are they still around? They were nice fellas.

Hey Will. Wife be a damnible hottie. And luckie me, she EARNS. Far more than me.......... She finished her degree and digs big holes in the ground and ships them off to China, who ships them back as TV's and stuff.

Fender and Marshall have been in mothballs, although I do the odd fill in from time to time. I haven't forgotten, you still owe me a harley so you better get better and get a job, um, man. I live in Perth Western Australia these days and I really miss the tropics.

Yep, we will get it back. You catch more seagulls with chips (french fries for you heathens) than with shotguns..........

How about you, the last time we chatted you had a new girlfriend. Still? Or back to being a single studlie?

The Immortal Dave

PS: I wish the people upstairs would stop fighting......

[Mind]

But Maestro949 advances a wonderful solution. I can’t think of a more perfect solution. Giving people the freedom to choose what forums show or do not show up in their active page. Is this doable?

This would be a good solution in my view.

[thefirstimmortal]

When might we be able to get this deal done?

But Maestro949 advances a wonderful solution. I can’t think of a more perfect solution. Giving people the freedom to choose what forums show or do not show up in their active page. Is this doable?

This would be a good solution in my view.

[thefirstimmortal]

Yeah, Yeah, I know I still owe you a Harley Dave. Things are a little tight for me right now, hang in there buddy, I'll put that on my "Kick the Bucket list".

Yeah, she left me at the end of nice weather. I'm single with a few of the ex's trying to get back together with me. Unfortunately at this time it's not a good idea.

I haven't forgotten, you still owe me a harley so you better get better and get a job, um, man. I live in Perth Western Australia these days and I really miss the tropics.

Yep, we will get it back. You catch more seagulls with chips (french fries for you heathens) than with shotguns..........

How about you, the last time we chatted you had a new girlfriend. Still? Or back to being a single studlie?

The Immortal Dave

PS: I wish the people upstairs would stop fighting......

[David]

You can keep the damn bike if you get better

David

[David]

How's that for motivation!

[thefirstimmortal]

How about I get better and then send the Bike?

You can keep the damn bike if you get better

David

[thefirstimmortal]

Cnorwood, I'm still waiting...

http://www.imminst.o...&...st&p=248784

[lightowl]

Giving people the freedom to choose what forums show or do not show up in their active page.

The perfect middle-ground. I would love to see that implemented. I might even help if needed.

[lightowl]

Another option that would be useful, would be if one could ignore specific topics. Most of the topics here are completely useless to me, but I still check the list to find the gems.

Edited by lightowl, 13 July 2008 - 11:20 AM.

[Athanasios]

The perfect middle-ground. I would love to see that implemented. I might even help if needed.

Great! This was of high priority during our last software upgrade but somehow it went silently FUBAR. Look in the top right hand corner of your screen where 'my blog' and 'controls' are. The one that says 'Selective' allows you to pick what forums are in the active topics list, including 'Free Speech'.
The problem with it now is that there is no way to save the settings to make it permanent and apparently it has issues with IE. If you would like to help, contact Bruce Klein or Mind to get the ball rolling.

[lightowl]

The one that says 'Selective' allows you to pick what forums are in the active topics list, including 'Free Speech'.

Yea, I tried that out and it didn't seem to work for me. Its working in FireFox ok. Active topics went from 4 pages to 8 pages. That's a lot of topics people are missing out on if they don't know about that feature or cant get it to work. Saving the settings is rather crucial, but its still marginally useful in its current form (if one knows how to get it working and how it behaves).

Another thing that seems odd is that "All Forums" doesn't actually show all forums. One needs to select every forum in the list to make them show.

[Athanasios]

Yep, my guess is that it needs a whole overhaul but I dont know. The only one that I am aware of that has had first hand knowledge of the ordeal is Bruce Klein.

[lightowl]

Also, if one selects FSF only, it gives this error.

You did not choose any forums to search in, or the forums you chose to search in are password protected. If this is the case, please make sure you are logged into the password protected forums before searching.

This also suggests that the FSF is not shown, even if all other forums are selected, and the error is not produced. Probably a quirk in the way the FSF is set up.

BTW, I am logged in as a member before doing this test.

Edited by lightowl, 13 July 2008 - 03:02 PM.

[Athanasios]

I am sure there are all sorts of errors, like I said, FUBAR. The intention was to have one that was functional in every way, a bit more organized, and savable...it never happened. Due to what roadblocks? I do not know. Like I said, Bruce is the only one I am aware of that has had first hand knowledge in the matter.

Edited by cnorwood, 13 July 2008 - 03:09 PM.

[Infernity]

Wow, I think I've only joined after you took your leave.

[thefirstimmortal]

Who is the "you" in your post?

Wow, I think I've only joined after you took your leave.

[thefirstimmortal]

OK Mind, I asked for the thread that got the Free Speech Forum Bumped. Anyone know where it exists, or do I have to read the entire site to find it?


Mind says

QUOTE
The people who have freely "assembled" here at Imminst decided to have a Free Speech FORUM, how to display that forum, and how to moderate other forums. These things were all discussed among the members and mostly implemented through votes - therefore I do not see any ergregious violation of any freedoms. The decision to keep the FSF off the active topics list and non-googleable were not implemented by fiat. It was a group discussion.

Perhaps you could find that thread that got the Free Speech Forum bumped of the active topics list so that I might read it. And I would like to review these votes.

[Mind]

or do I have to read the entire site to find it?

generally speaking - yes.

I spent a lot of time reading through old discussions about how to handle FSF and active topics...couldn't find anything concrete yet, however this discussion revolves around how to save the image of Imminst from being taken under by "crazy" posting. During the forum upgrade Elrond mentioned that FSF was not working with the selective topics list. And here is a test post Bruce made after Elrond mentioned the problem. I know there is a more detailed discussion of how to keep the more "wild" postings of the Off-topic and FSF forums from harming/ruining the reputation of Imminst, but can't find it at the moment.