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Nicotine patch for focus - a log


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#61 helmingstay

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 05:27 AM

But it is not a nootropic. It has dangerous side effects. It has a very low LD50. Look up the definition of "nootropic". And if you argue that its an esoteric definition, and I'm being pedantic, I'll go ahead and argue that you should call it by what it is. And as any long-term tobacco addict will tell you, once you quit, all of those cognitive gains not only go away, but you're sometimes left slower, stupider, and more irritable than you ever were before. But yeah, when you start using, for a time, until the irritability and nervousness set in, you'll feel great.


You are confusing nicotine with tobacco. Please see the title of the thread. Your conflation of the two severely limits the usefulness of your comments, or our ability to take you seriously.

It's unclear to me if you are speaking from personal experience, scientific literature, or opinion when you describe "slower, stupider, and more irritable".

As an experienced user of the patch, i can personally attest that it doesn't cause a significant amount of irritability and nervousness after extended useat *an appropriate level*. Along these lines, the LD50 of a substance is *not* a good judge of its usefulness. Aspirin is surprisingly toxic, and *very* useful.

Judging by your post, assessing your own level of irritability in yourself might be warranted. Just my $0.02
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#62 helmingstay

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 05:31 AM

Best thing about the patch as opposed to gum is the slow delivery system. And Nicoderm CQ is by far the superior brand of patches. I have tried the other name brand and generic and none
live up to Nicoderm CQ. I have actually cut down to about 1/8 of a patch.

The slow delivery system is good in regards to addiction. I believe that a fast delivery, such as w/ cigarettes, is risky because it will cause addiction.

I've actually quit the patch before, went 8 or 9 months without any nicotine and when I did quit the patch it was only for one single day that I had cravings.


Thanks for the straightforwards report.
One question - can you explain *why* Nicoderm CQ is better?
Also, what is the patch strength? I'm assuming you're using the of 21mg/day variety...

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#63 Johann

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 08:39 PM

Best thing about the patch as opposed to gum is the slow delivery system. And Nicoderm CQ is by far the superior brand of patches. I have tried the other name brand and generic and none
live up to Nicoderm CQ. I have actually cut down to about 1/8 of a patch.

The slow delivery system is good in regards to addiction. I believe that a fast delivery, such as w/ cigarettes, is risky because it will cause addiction.

I've actually quit the patch before, went 8 or 9 months without any nicotine and when I did quit the patch it was only for one single day that I had cravings.


Thanks for the straightforwards report.
One question - can you explain *why* Nicoderm CQ is better?
Also, what is the patch strength? I'm assuming you're using the of 21mg/day variety...



While I buy the 21 mg size for economical reasons, I cut it up into 1/8ths and use one a day. So IOW, one patch lasts me 8 days.
The Nicoderm CQ is best because its release of nicotine is more of a steady and gradual than
the others I've tested. The other brands of patches allow the user to get nicotine fast but then do not keep on delivering over several hours the way CQ does.

#64 trevyn

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 02:10 PM

Woahhh dreams.

I tried 1/4 of a 21mg generic patch about a week ago, and had somewhat unusually vivid dreams.

Yesterday I put on a full 7mg Nicoderm CQ patch, and just woke up (relatively calmly, thankfully) from my first vivid nightmare in probably at least 5 years. I also got some appetite suppression effect: I didn't eat anything throughout the day -- not super unusual -- but then could only eat one large burrito at night, when usually under that circumstance I would have no problem with two and might even attempt a third. :)

Possible decrease in physical lethargy when tired.

Neat effects, I'll definitely continue to experiment. (I've never smoked, BTW.)

Does anyone know about proper storage of cut-up patches? I remember reading something in passing about how they may dry up out of the packaging.

Edited by trevyn, 22 December 2009 - 02:13 PM.


#65 snow leopard

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Posted 24 December 2009 - 05:26 AM

ok could someone help me out. I want to try the nicotine gum/patch. I've been smoking for 6 or 7 months. I normally smoke 4-7 cigarettes a day.
should I get the gum or patch?
how much mg should I take?
can I smoke while on the patch/gum?

#66 Thales

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Posted 26 December 2009 - 09:53 AM

"Cognitive modifications associated with tobacco smoking
Presse Med, 2009 Sep;38(9):1241-52. Epub 2009 Aug 7

INTRODUCTION: Tobacco is an important source of somatic diseases and causes high mortality. It is associated with cognitive disorders which tend to maintain addictive mechanisms. In the short term, the nicotine contained in tobacco enhances attention and memory. METHOD: To realize this review, we made a research, we made a research on Medline, Embase, PsycInfo, Google Scholar using the single or combined key-words "tobacco", "nicotine", "addiction", "dependence", "cognitive disorders", "executive function", "memory", "attention", "neuropsychological". We selected English or French articles from 1987 to 2008 by privileging controlled studies. RESULTS: This effect can be observed in smokers (with or without withdrawal symptoms), non-smokers and in patients suffering from cognitive disorders. In the long term, tobacco accelerates dementia processes. It is associated with an increased risk of cognitive deterioration. This deterioration concerns mainly memory and processing speed. These results were reported in prospective studies. They contradict early reports, that suggested smoking could actually be protective against certain central neural system disorders. These early results relayed on case-control studies, which were certainly biased by a "healthy survival effect". Further studies are required to evaluate nicotine's long term effect and its potential efficacy in treating and preventing cognitive disorders or dementia.""

Is there good reason to suppose that there would not be this cognitive deterioration if one only used nicotine over the long term?

Edited by Thales, 26 December 2009 - 09:59 AM.


#67 SpawnMoreOverlords

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 04:33 PM

Could anyone recommend an affordable online source for nicotine patches(in PM if its against the rules) ? been struggling to quit(down to 1 cigarrete a day lately) PLUS this thread made me really interested in trying nicotine patches out. been googling for half an hour now... >:( not much luck cept few very expensive ones

Edit: Found "generic" Nicoderm CQ 7x21mg for $27... hopefully it works as well as the real one !

Edited by Pwnz0r, 28 December 2009 - 05:07 PM.


#68 nito

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 02:19 PM

bump

#69 k10

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 10:45 PM

"Cognitive modifications associated with tobacco smoking
Presse Med, 2009 Sep;38(9):1241-52. Epub 2009 Aug 7

INTRODUCTION: Tobacco is an important source of somatic diseases and causes high mortality. It is associated with cognitive disorders which tend to maintain addictive mechanisms. In the short term, the nicotine contained in tobacco enhances attention and memory. METHOD: To realize this review, we made a research, we made a research on Medline, Embase, PsycInfo, Google Scholar using the single or combined key-words "tobacco", "nicotine", "addiction", "dependence", "cognitive disorders", "executive function", "memory", "attention", "neuropsychological". We selected English or French articles from 1987 to 2008 by privileging controlled studies. RESULTS: This effect can be observed in smokers (with or without withdrawal symptoms), non-smokers and in patients suffering from cognitive disorders. In the long term, tobacco accelerates dementia processes. It is associated with an increased risk of cognitive deterioration. This deterioration concerns mainly memory and processing speed. These results were reported in prospective studies. They contradict early reports, that suggested smoking could actually be protective against certain central neural system disorders. These early results relayed on case-control studies, which were certainly biased by a "healthy survival effect". Further studies are required to evaluate nicotine's long term effect and its potential efficacy in treating and preventing cognitive disorders or dementia.""

Is there good reason to suppose that there would not be this cognitive deterioration if one only used nicotine over the long term?



There are too many harmful variables when it comes down to tobacco (tar, carbon monoxide, and hundreds of other harmful chemicals) that could have contributed to a cognitive decline. I see no reason why nicotine alone would cause any cognitive deterioration.

#70 Pike

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 01:59 AM

i'll vouch for Nicoderm CQ as well. tried other brands, but none compare. I normally used a 1/4th of a patch.

#71 nito

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 03:12 PM

i'll vouch for Nicoderm CQ as well. tried other brands, but none compare. I normally used a 1/4th of a patch.


I just bought these Niquitin Minis from my university. Each mini is 1.5 mg. I must say i had concentration almost immediatly on the rise. Really loved it. Pike you take 5 mg? I assume ur a smoker right? I 'm not so i m trying to go low doses.

#72 Razortag

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 05:05 AM

Simply FASCINATING discussion, everyone!

I have many things to address, so I'll do it one at a time...

#1:

I've always had much more trouble cutting the generic round patches than the rectangular Nicoderm patches. The Nicoderm patches seem to have a better and more stable gel and their inherent adhesive properties are far superior to the round ones. Much less worry about the nicotine evaporating over time as it's exposed to the air (compared to the cheaper, generic round patches)

After talking at length with my substance abuse counselor at my local hospital (where I get my free round patches these days) he has a partiular method of recommending how to cut them. He claims that as soon as they're exposed to the air, the nicotine begins to evaporate from the membrane. Even when you cut them in half (and leave the unused portion on the silver foil) the nicotine continues to evaporate (seep) from the thin line of exposed membrane.

This is much the same science as when you, for example, would trap a droplet of water between two thin plates of glass. The water on the edge evaporates and it "draws" the water from the middle out to the edge, to eventually be evaporated out as well Over time, ALL of the water would be evaporated, even though only 1% of it is exposed to the air at any one time. There's a particular name for this phenomenon, but I cannot recall it. Something similar of how blood is drawn "magically" up into a thin pipette. But I digress!!!

So he suggested that when you cut your round patch, take tomorrow's remainder and SEAL THE EDGE completely! He recommended taking a strip of scotch tape and sealing it away back into its packaging. I brainstormed a more cost-effective and less wasteful approach, so I've planned on taking a sheet of Glad Press'n'Seal plastic kitchen wrap and folding it perfectly in the middle of that, ensuring it's got a nice seal all the way around each time. That way I don't have to fight with scotch tape every other morning and I can ensure there's a 100% seal around it each time.

The counselor's theory about evaporation through the edge is a compelling one and a theory my body can definitely back up because whenever I'd use the "second" half of a round patch which has had its edge exposed to the air all day, I definitely end up having a day full of heightened anxiety! Now I'm convinced that it's the nicotine that's lost to the air.

#2:

Tonight, I read on the internet about a completely opposite perspective. Where you can take an old round patch and re-apply it the next day and you'll find it still kicks out a ton of nicotine!
Here's the link:
http://www.naturalfi...otine_patch.htm

I figured that was bogus, so I fished around in my garbage for two old half-patches (each at least 24 hours old and exposed to the air) and stuck them to my skin with scotch tape. In 30 minutes, I had a HUGE boost in energy! Almost to the point where the area under the old patches was tingly and jumpy and after a while I took it off, feeling that the point had been made. No need to supplement my nicotine levels higher than they already were. (I had had my regular half-patch on the whole time)

The whole point in this perspective is that it's the ADHESIVE that wears off, not the nicotine! If you keep vigilant with keeping it on your skin, presumably these crusty old round patches pack quite a whollop for days and days and days! Now the problem is in determining when it's time to put a fresh one on again, and if it's healthy to have your body go through these ups and downs in nicotine levels over the long haul. For me, I just feel the anxiety come and go in my shoulders and I hope to eventually work out a system where my moods are regulated and I can maintain focus all day without getting too manic or sleepy.

#3:

I realize that the above two points COMPLETELY contradict each other, but my body behaves how my body behaves. Perhaps it's psychosomatic?

#4:

The Nicoderm CQ patches seem to be totally unaffected by the above two points. You can chop them up and lay them on your counter for a week (edges exposed to the air) and they'll be just fine, so long as you keep the plastic backing on each piece. Plus, they have much better adhesion all around.

#5:

The round, generic patches have what looks like a "sponge" in the middle containing the nicotine, with adhesion around the edge. This would lead me to believe that the most responsible and reliable way to chop them into pieces would be in a pinwheel fashion, rather than straight across in a 60/40 method or whatever your brain may concoct. Would this "sponge" be more susceptible to edge-evaporation over the Nicoderm CQ patches with their wonderful nicotine-infused gel substance?

#6:

A wise, patch-addicted friend of mine claims that nicotine simply makes your brain and body work better. I find it hard to believe that an exogenous chemical would improve the body over the long haul. Aren't our bodies inherently sovereign and don't require any outside chemicals at all to improve them?

Okay, that's about it for me tonight. I apologize for my spastic writing. The energy-boost attained from Point #2 is finally coming back down to normal levels again. Whew!
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#73 medievil

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 12:25 PM

I started taking the nicotine patch 3 days ago, has a good effect on my energy level and focus.

Interesting post Razortag! I'm gonna try to sea the edges tomorrow.

Edited by medievil, 03 March 2010 - 12:29 PM.


#74 nito

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 07:10 PM

I started taking the nicotine patch 3 days ago, has a good effect on my energy level and focus.

Interesting post Razortag! I'm gonna try to sea the edges tomorrow.


1. R u a smoker?
2. How many mg do you put on?

thanks

#75 Razortag

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 07:44 PM

I started taking the nicotine patch 3 days ago, has a good effect on my energy level and focus.

Interesting post Razortag! I'm gonna try to sea the edges tomorrow.


1. R u a smoker?
2. How many mg do you put on?

thanks


Sorry to butt in. Just wanted to add my two cents.

I began following this discussion because people were talking about methods of using or cutting the patch. While I feel using the patch is an INCREDIBLY helpful tool to quit smoking tobacco, I have STRONG HESITATION about recommending nicotine to anyone who hasn't developed a taste/need for it yet.

Nicotine is considered one of the most (if not THE most) physically and psychologically addictive substances in the entire world. Prior to introducing nicotine into your body, there is no compulsion for your body want/need it. However, as SOON as you introduce it for the first time, it gives birth to a "little monster" of need within you. This monster will remain within you until the day you die. Sure, eventually you can starve this "little monster" down into a tiny little husk, so that it no longer has any effect on you, but there's always going to be that slight twinge... That slight trickle in the back of your mind that something's missing. I feel that once you go down the road of nicotine you'll forever regret it.

This of course, is just my opinion. I realize this thread is in the Nootropics category where people are looking outside themselves for tools (exogenous chems) to help focus their mind and memory. If you decide that nicotine is the path you want to take, just consider the consequences of your actions once you introduce nicotine into your body for the first time.

------------

Getting down to your question, nito, a full-size 21mg patch (Step 1: full strength) replaces a 20-cigarette pack habit over a period of 24 hours. Just up the thread a bit is a fellow (SpawnMoreOverlord) who had whittled his habit down to 1 cigarette per day. This would imply that he'd only need 1/7th of a 7mg (Step 3: the smallest available) patch to fulfill his daily nicotine needs. He mentions finding a deal on 21mg(!!!) patches and I fear he'll really regret overdosing on these pack-a-day patches and have to start his reduction process over again. Once you give the "little monster" a full meal, he's going to expect that same meal every day!

This helps to explain the following phenomenon. A pack-a-day smoker eventually figures out a way to quit completely. Several months (or years) go by and his confidence is booming. He's starved the little monster completely! Then at a party, someone offers him a cigarette and he figures "Bah, what would one smoke hurt?". This immediately wakes up the monster and he begins demanding his expected FULL MEAL every day and before he knows it that person has returned to their disgusting old pack-a-day habit.

Treat it like an alcoholic who's successfully quit alcohol. They KNOW that if they have just one drink they're right back on the horse and all their hard work is ruined.

To sum up, don't EVER try nicotine, even if it's just through the patch and even if it's to help out with your brain functioning. You're giving birth to a monster inside you that wasn't there before. And he'll be inside you until the day you die.

It looks like that was a lot more than 2 cents. =)

- Razortag

Edited by Razortag, 03 March 2010 - 08:11 PM.

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#76 viltro

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 07:46 PM

Nice to see this topic reactivate. I just started trying nicotine in the form of 2mg gum. For simplicity I told the pharmacist I smoked up to a dozen a day, "mainly as a study habit". I was recommended gum, which apparently is suitable for people used to up to 20 a day (I can't believe people find enough time to smoke that much!).

I've sort of smoked tobacco in the past - joints and hash. I was smoking joints daily a couple of years ago, and never had issues taking breaks during exam time etc, though compared to my peers, I use very little tobacco. I think I have an idea of the sensation of nicotine however.

Anyway.. this gum, has seemed pretty pointless. I can't imagine it being a cigarette replacement myself. I've had 15 pieces so far, mostly 2 at once. Effects have been negligible. With regards to the nausea described by some, this is probably due to the way you're chewing the gum chew as you would with regular gum.

I'm not sure how quickly nicotine addiction comes into play, but so far I've tried it Friday, Saturday and Sunday, had no issue without it Monday, Tuesday but decided to try it again today.

I don't think I'll bother with patches, unless I experience more conclusive effects from the remainders of the gum I have.

#77 JLL

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 08:25 PM

The patches seem pretty expensive. I guess there is no cheap, good alternative to Nicoderm CQ? I'd like to do an experiment with nicotine.

#78 Razortag

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 09:19 PM

The patches seem pretty expensive. I guess there is no cheap, good alternative to Nicoderm CQ? I'd like to do an experiment with nicotine.


Habitrol is the cheaper version of Nicoderm. You'll also find generic equivalents of Habitrol at Walgreens, Duane Reade, Rite Aide, etc. Nicotrol also makes a rectangular patch, but I have no information about price or quality.

Habitrol and equivalents are about half the price of Nicoderm, but as stated above, they're the "round" patches, which have a habit of losing their potency if you try to cut them into pieces. (See my post above regarding techniques for doing this)

If you have health insurance, you can very likely get your patches for free. Check into it! I didn't have health insurance, but signed up for Medicaid and now I'm getting free patches at my local hospital in New York City. NYCQuits has a great program for sending out free patches.

Edited by Razortag, 03 March 2010 - 09:27 PM.


#79 nito

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 10:01 PM

I take the Niquitin Lozenges mint pastelles. They are quite tasty and each contain 1.5 mg. You get 20 in a pack. Not too expensive either. I would like to try the nicotine patch though as you can get fed up with the mint taste after a while.

#80 medievil

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 05:19 PM

I never smoked as i cant tolerate cigaretes. Nicotine however helps me a TON with energy and OCD so i wouldnt mind to get addicted to if it keeps helping me.

Anyway thx for your concern Razortag.

#81 Kewell

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 08:54 PM

Simply FASCINATING discussion, everyone!

I have many things to address, so I'll do it one at a time...

#1:

I've always had much more trouble cutting the generic round patches than the rectangular Nicoderm patches. The Nicoderm patches seem to have a better and more stable gel and their inherent adhesive properties are far superior to the round ones. Much less worry about the nicotine evaporating over time as it's exposed to the air (compared to the cheaper, generic round patches)

After talking at length with my substance abuse counselor at my local hospital (where I get my free round patches these days) he has a partiular method of recommending how to cut them. He claims that as soon as they're exposed to the air, the nicotine begins to evaporate from the membrane. Even when you cut them in half (and leave the unused portion on the silver foil) the nicotine continues to evaporate (seep) from the thin line of exposed membrane.

This is much the same science as when you, for example, would trap a droplet of water between two thin plates of glass. The water on the edge evaporates and it "draws" the water from the middle out to the edge, to eventually be evaporated out as well Over time, ALL of the water would be evaporated, even though only 1% of it is exposed to the air at any one time. There's a particular name for this phenomenon, but I cannot recall it. Something similar of how blood is drawn "magically" up into a thin pipette. But I digress!!!

So he suggested that when you cut your round patch, take tomorrow's remainder and SEAL THE EDGE completely! He recommended taking a strip of scotch tape and sealing it away back into its packaging. I brainstormed a more cost-effective and less wasteful approach, so I've planned on taking a sheet of Glad Press'n'Seal plastic kitchen wrap and folding it perfectly in the middle of that, ensuring it's got a nice seal all the way around each time. That way I don't have to fight with scotch tape every other morning and I can ensure there's a 100% seal around it each time.

The counselor's theory about evaporation through the edge is a compelling one and a theory my body can definitely back up because whenever I'd use the "second" half of a round patch which has had its edge exposed to the air all day, I definitely end up having a day full of heightened anxiety! Now I'm convinced that it's the nicotine that's lost to the air.

#2:

Tonight, I read on the internet about a completely opposite perspective. Where you can take an old round patch and re-apply it the next day and you'll find it still kicks out a ton of nicotine!
Here's the link:
http://www.naturalfi...otine_patch.htm

I figured that was bogus, so I fished around in my garbage for two old half-patches (each at least 24 hours old and exposed to the air) and stuck them to my skin with scotch tape. In 30 minutes, I had a HUGE boost in energy! Almost to the point where the area under the old patches was tingly and jumpy and after a while I took it off, feeling that the point had been made. No need to supplement my nicotine levels higher than they already were. (I had had my regular half-patch on the whole time)

The whole point in this perspective is that it's the ADHESIVE that wears off, not the nicotine! If you keep vigilant with keeping it on your skin, presumably these crusty old round patches pack quite a whollop for days and days and days! Now the problem is in determining when it's time to put a fresh one on again, and if it's healthy to have your body go through these ups and downs in nicotine levels over the long haul. For me, I just feel the anxiety come and go in my shoulders and I hope to eventually work out a system where my moods are regulated and I can maintain focus all day without getting too manic or sleepy.

#3:

I realize that the above two points COMPLETELY contradict each other, but my body behaves how my body behaves. Perhaps it's psychosomatic?

#4:

The Nicoderm CQ patches seem to be totally unaffected by the above two points. You can chop them up and lay them on your counter for a week (edges exposed to the air) and they'll be just fine, so long as you keep the plastic backing on each piece. Plus, they have much better adhesion all around.

#5:

The round, generic patches have what looks like a "sponge" in the middle containing the nicotine, with adhesion around the edge. This would lead me to believe that the most responsible and reliable way to chop them into pieces would be in a pinwheel fashion, rather than straight across in a 60/40 method or whatever your brain may concoct. Would this "sponge" be more susceptible to edge-evaporation over the Nicoderm CQ patches with their wonderful nicotine-infused gel substance?

#6:

A wise, patch-addicted friend of mine claims that nicotine simply makes your brain and body work better. I find it hard to believe that an exogenous chemical would improve the body over the long haul. Aren't our bodies inherently sovereign and don't require any outside chemicals at all to improve them?

Okay, that's about it for me tonight. I apologize for my spastic writing. The energy-boost attained from Point #2 is finally coming back down to normal levels again. Whew!








Hi, thanks for your insightful post.

I've read that cutting the patches can cause the nicotine to migrate to the edge at a rapid pace and thus making it ineffective. It can also cause an overdose.

Did you experience anything like that?

#82 Razortag

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 10:20 PM

Hi, thanks for your insightful post.

I've read that cutting the patches can cause the nicotine to migrate to the edge at a rapid pace and thus making it ineffective. It can also cause an overdose.

Did you experience anything like that?


Yes, after playing around with cutting them (the round patches, not the Nicoderm CQ) I agree with that assessment.
If a the edge of any cut patch is exposed to the air for any significant period of time (longer than a minute or two), the nicotine will begin to migrate to the edge.
If you then apply it to your skin like this, all the nicotine will dump all at once, potentially giving you an overdose.
After the nicotine dump, the patch will be basically empty and you'll be left "wanting" several hours later.
Even if you apply a FRESHLY CUT patch to your shoulder, the edge is still exposed to the air and it will pull the nicotine over and down into your skin at a much more rapid pace than you'd like.

TO FIX THIS:

* Seal all unused cut portions back into their container packets using scotch tape.
* Before you put a cut piece onto your shoulder, put a length of scotch tape along the cut edge, with half on the top of the patch and half exposed to the air. Then apply it to your skin, pressing the tape down onto your skin tightly so that no air gets to the edge. Scotch tape sticks to skin the best - don't substitute with crappy generic tape!

----------------------

I also think I've figured out how Point #1 and Point #2 from my post you quoted DON'T contradict each other after all.

It all hinges upon this:
If any portion of the sponge is exposed to the air, all the nicotine will rush to that spot.

If you use a full patch, apply it for a day and throw it away, the adhesive will dry out but the nicotine will stay nicely distributed because it's been exposed to the air EVENLY. All it needs is some supplemental adhesive (a ring of scotch tape all the way around) to make it stick for the next round. I recommend going back and reading the article (http://www.naturalfi...otine_patch.htm) because he does a much better job describing the whole "weaning" process than I do. If you don't feel like arranging 6 strips of scotch tape perfectly in a circle, consider just using a wide piece of clear packing tape and placing the patch right in the middle. Then when you're ready to apply it a 3rd time just trim off the edges and apply another layer with freshly exposed edges.

So to finally clarify, the "overdose" only happens when you cut your patch and leave a tiny strip exposed to the air for the nicotine to rush to! This will happen whether it's on your skin or sitting on your desk for tomorrow. Seal it up tight, or better yet, just invest in a nice "stable" box of Nicoderm CQ's and don't even take the risk! (Wish I could afford that option...)

Can anyone else verify this weird phenomenon?

#83 Razortag

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 09:02 PM

Having posted exhaustive theories here on what is the best way to cut a round patch, I've finally come to one simple conclusion.

CUTTING A ROUND PATCH RENDERS IT USELESS!!!

I've tried taping it. I've tried sealing it away from the air. I've tried any number of theories, all posted above. The one thing that cannot be avoided is that when you cut into a Habitrol patch (and its many generic equivalents), you're cutting into a "reservoir" style patch (as I've learned). Cutting into this reservoir causes ALL the nicotine to leak out (whether you can see it or not), giving you a quick and very uncomfortable overdose, followed by hours and hours of NOTHING. No amount of taping or sealing is going to prevent this, and I'm sorry I led people to believe you could do this in my above posts.

Meanwhile...

CUTTING A NICODERM CQ PATCH WORKS JUST FINE!!!

Nicoderm CQ patches use a "matrix" style patch, meaning the adhesive is impregnated directly with the nicotine and there's no amount of "leakage" going on at all when it is cut.

-------------------

I've worked my way down to 7-mg Habitrol patches and I plan on following the "renegade" nicotine reduction method outlined in the following link:
http://www.naturalfi...otine_patch.htm

I have 10 patches and plan on applying a new one each day, and saving the used ones.
Then I'll go through a 2nd cycle of applying the used ones (using scotch packaging tape), saving them for a 3rd time...
Then I'll keep going through this cycle (5-6 times total, according to the website) until they are completely out of nicotine.

After this, if my cravings still become too great, I'll supplement any future nicotine cravings with either nicotine gum or cut-up pieces of my few remaining Nicoderm CQ patches.

Yes, I'm a cheap bastard, but it's a tough economy out there and I can't afford to keep up this addiction any longer! (And I'm too much of a pussy to quit cold turkey.) :|o

I'll report back here in a month or two to let you guys know how good/bad these Habitrol patches retain their nicotine over repeated applications.

Peace,

- Dave

#84 ramon25

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Posted 06 June 2010 - 05:32 AM

So can most of the anti anxiety and MOOD ENHANCING effects of tobacco be attributed to nicotine?

#85 health_nutty

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Posted 06 June 2010 - 09:58 PM

This is interesting. Have you guys who are trying the patch for focus tried other more conventional noots such as piracetam with a choline source? I'm curious how it compares. I really haven't tried any noots (although some I've tried other supplements that are some nootropic benefits but I was taking them for other reasons).

#86 penisbreath

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 06:09 AM

hey thanks for the tip, Razortag. i tried experimenting with the round patches for a week and my experience accords with what you describe - i'd receive an initial burst of stimulation, followed by anxiety and withdrawal. i'd just about given up on nicotine (the lozenges are tremendously helpful but irritate my stomach), so i may have to experiment with Nicoderm.

#87 chrono

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Posted 07 June 2010 - 05:22 PM

I've found the round patches to work fine. On one hand, I don't have any kind of nicotine dependence, so I wouldn't be thrown into withdrawal at some point later in the day if my serum levels dipped. But I always notice a crazy effect on dreams and sleep quality in general if I leave my patch on at bedtime, so I'm pretty sure something is still being delivered.

But even if delivery fizzles out later in the day to some extent, I don't think this is necessarily a problem from a CE standpoint. We don't need most of the drugs we take to last 24 hours. Most of us design a stack that winds down a bit later in the day.

I use Novartis 21mg patches, and apply a wedge around 1/7-1/8 of the circle. I first cut it in half, and then cut a wedge out of one of the halves. I stick it to my skin with 2" 3M Transpore surgical tape—this stuff works incredibly well (don't use packing tape). Sometimes I've noticed a decrease in effectiveness if I don't use this, and sometimes part of the patch comes un-stuck.

I store the unused portions in the envelope, placed inside a ziplock bag with the air squeezed out. I've never noticed any significant decrease in effectiveness using this method, and a patch could last a good month at the rate I used it. I just applied a wedge today after reading the last half-dozen posts in this thread, which had been in a ziplock bag for about two months. It's definitely having an effect.

@health_nutty: I use nicotine mostly for its dopaminergic properties. It makes me much more able to focus on menial tasks, less distractable, more content, and slightly more comfortable in social situations (but I also have inattentive ADD). For finer mental tasks like writing and analysis, I feel like it gets in the way slightly compared to my usual piracetam + ALCAR.


I don't think it's been mentioned in this thread yet that there's a chance nicotine itself can generate cancer. See discussion in the Nicotine and Vasoconstriction thread, starting here (and note that such generation is more likely via oral nicotine). I've essentially stopped using it for this reason, and switched to NALT for when I want some of those dopamine effects—though I must admit the character of the experience isn't quite as warm.

Also relevant to this thread is this graph on patch delivery pk, from Pharmacological Reviews vol. 57 no. 1 79-115. Note that at 24 hours re-dose kinetics are derived via superimposition, but the first 24 hours show a marked difference between different types of patches.

Attached File  F3.large.jpg   158.23KB   14 downloads
(click to enlarge)

Edited by chrono, 22 November 2011 - 09:46 AM.


#88 truboy

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 01:31 AM

I've always had much more trouble cutting the generic round patches than the rectangular Nicoderm patches. The Nicoderm patches seem to have a better and more stable gel and their inherent adhesive properties are far superior to the round ones. Much less worry about the nicotine evaporating over time as it's exposed to the air (compared to the cheaper, generic round patches)

After talking at length with my substance abuse counselor at my local hospital (where I get my free round patches these days) he has a partiular method of recommending how to cut them. He claims that as soon as they're exposed to the air, the nicotine begins to evaporate from the membrane. Even when you cut them in half (and leave the unused portion on the silver foil) the nicotine continues to evaporate (seep) from the thin line of exposed membrane.

guys i cut the Nicoderm patch 21mg in 12 parts. Used 2 of them(around 2 mg each), and another 10 where in bedroom for 3 days.[I never head about nicotine evaporating.] So now it's already 100 hours passed since my last usage - but i still feel effects and have insomnia. Is it possible that some nicotine from those cut patches is in the air? I just can't explain how i can't have such withdraw(insomnia, + feeling some effects of Nicotine - focus, motivation) even after 100 hours only after 2 days usage(first day 1pm-10pm 2mg, second day 7am-16pm 2mg)

#89 chrono

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 10:00 AM

guys i cut the Nicoderm patch 21mg in 12 parts. Used 2 of them(around 2 mg each), and another 10 where in bedroom for 3 days.[I never head about nicotine evaporating.] So now it's already 100 hours passed since my last usage - but i still feel effects and have insomnia. Is it possible that some nicotine from those cut patches is in the air? I just can't explain how i can't have such withdraw(insomnia, + feeling some effects of Nicotine - focus, motivation) even after 100 hours only after 2 days usage(first day 1pm-10pm 2mg, second day 7am-16pm 2mg)


I'm not sure. It seems pretty unlikely to me. Leaving a pack of cigarettes out doesn't do this, and it contains roughly the same amount of nicotine as a 21mg patch.

Now that this is brought up again, I'm very skeptical of the idea that nicotine evaporates as described, at all. The boiling point of nicotine is 247 °C (477 °F), with a pretty low vapor pressure. How much is this going to evaporate at room temperature? I'd be surprised if the answer is anything but "hardly any."

Rather, a better explanation for why opened patches lose their effectiveness might be that certain components of the delivery matrix evaporate, making them less effective. I can say that my Novartis patches give off an odd sweet smell when cut open, which reminds me of some kind of alcohol. This dissipates when left out in the open, but can be retained for a long time if sealed within their envelope. It's the first thing I check for when I reopen them after a long time.

@truboy: are there any other possible explanations? Are you particularly sensitive to nicotine, like in cigarettes? Have you been awake for all of those 100 hours?

The half-life of nicotine in humans is just a little over 2 hours. Once you take the patch off, after 10 hours, only 3% of a dose is left. It's highly unlikely that the nicotine is still active in your system, though if you're really sensitive, I suppose it could exert a lingering effect through a reaction of your neurochemistry to its presence.

Edited by chrono, 22 November 2011 - 10:11 AM.


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#90 truboy

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 02:03 PM

guys i cut the Nicoderm patch 21mg in 12 parts. Used 2 of them(around 2 mg each), and another 10 where in bedroom for 3 days.[I never head about nicotine evaporating.] So now it's already 100 hours passed since my last usage - but i still feel effects and have insomnia. Is it possible that some nicotine from those cut patches is in the air? I just can't explain how i can't have such withdraw(insomnia, + feeling some effects of Nicotine - focus, motivation) even after 100 hours only after 2 days usage(first day 1pm-10pm 2mg, second day 7am-16pm 2mg)


I'm not sure. It seems pretty unlikely to me. Leaving a pack of cigarettes out doesn't do this, and it contains roughly the same amount of nicotine as a 21mg patch.

Now that this is brought up again, I'm very skeptical of the idea that nicotine evaporates as described, at all. The boiling point of nicotine is 247 °C (477 °F), with a pretty low vapor pressure. How much is this going to evaporate at room temperature? I'd be surprised if the answer is anything but "hardly any."

Rather, a better explanation for why opened patches lose their effectiveness might be that certain components of the delivery matrix evaporate, making them less effective. I can say that my Novartis patches give off an odd sweet smell when cut open, which reminds me of some kind of alcohol. This dissipates when left out in the open, but can be retained for a long time if sealed within their envelope. It's the first thing I check for when I reopen them after a long time.

@truboy: are there any other possible explanations? Are you particularly sensitive to nicotine, like in cigarettes? Have you been awake for all of those 100 hours?

The half-life of nicotine in humans is just a little over 2 hours. Once you take the patch off, after 10 hours, only 3% of a dose is left. It's highly unlikely that the nicotine is still active in your system, though if you're really sensitive, I suppose it could exert a lingering effect through a reaction of your neurochemistry to its presence.

chrono i never was sensitive to too nicotine in cigarettes. I remember smoking 3-4 on parties and never felt anything besides better mood/relaxing for couple of hours....

here is what i found:

How long do nicotine withdrawal symptoms last? Let’s look at a timeline adapted from the Lung Association of Saskatchewan:
48 Hours
At the 48 hour mark the lightheadedness you may have experienced should begin to subside.
72 Hours
In just three days, your cravings for tobacco will be at its peak and will gradually lessen over the next weeks months or years, depending on many factors.
1 Week
You may have experienced difficulty sleeping during the first week, if so, it may begin to resolve at the one week mark.
2 Weeks
By 2 weeks, most of the foggy headed feeling may be gone and you may be better able to concentrate.
4 Weeks
The irritability, depression and restlessness associated with nicotine addiction should begin to subside by 4 weeks.
10 Weeks
At the 10 week mark, most people have experienced an increase in appetite due to the removal of the appetite suppressing effects of nicotine.

but how i can i have withdraw from such small dose of nicoderm patch(2 days use) and never have it with cigarettes?

today is the first day i slept 9 hours - only cause i was super exhausted yesterday... Will see how it goes today....

Edited by truboy, 22 November 2011 - 02:06 PM.





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