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Eternal life


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#1 hangman

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Posted 25 November 2003 - 11:05 PM


I've viewed a few topics and was quite shocked to see the worries some of you have about dead.

God exists out of:
God the Father
Word of God

The cause of death is sin

Sin came into the world when we disobayed God.

Because everybody sins, everybody dies.

However, God couldn't stand it anymore cause he loves us so much (he created us afterall). So God send His Word (2003 years ago) into the world to save us. His Word was born as Jesus. Jesus lived without sin his whole life and got killed. But death didnt have any power over him, because he was without sin. So Jesus now has the power to give us eternal life.

However, since we're all sinful (nomather how tiny), we will all die, yes me too. But I can and have given all my sins to the attention of Jesus and asked for forgiveness. He forgave me and now I have eternal life. When I die on earth, it will be in my sleep and I'll be totally rested, without worries of what's next, because i KNOW what's after dead. Or perhaps I will die in some other way, but I wont be worried about it one second.

So basicly, if you belief Jesus was the Son of God and he died to safe us from our sins(and thus dead), he will have done it for you aswell. You just have to belief it. I know most of you all belief it's oblivion after dead, but after this first dead on earth you will receive eternal life if you belief in Jesus.

I understand you dont belief me immideately, but i'm speaking out of knowledge that this is true. Just think about it, ofcourse oblivion will be very scary, but it's just not true ;) This body will die and wither and rot and eventually wash away with some river perhaps, but when you belief in Jesus, you will receive a new immortal body that doesn't get sick and doesn't die. There won't be sin in heaven.

Imaging this: life without death, pain, sadness, lies, stealing, raping, etc

So you got a choice:
1 belief it's oblivion after death and spend your whole life trying to figure out a way to be physicly immortal, which will be a waste of time since all people that tried this before you have died
2 live your life without worries with the knowledge of eternal life after dead.

I'll state a piece out of the bible:
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

I'm actually trying to keep this post short, but it's already quite long [huh] I'm not telling every detail that I know. just see that line out of the bible as the truth, because it is the truth.

God created life, God doesn't end it. Our sins end it. And sins exists because of disobedience to God. But Jesus gives eternal life [B)]

#2 Bruce Klein

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Posted 25 November 2003 - 11:10 PM

Welcome Hangman,

It's nice to have your ideas and a new point of view. While I appreciate your post, I'm curious, do you place much importance on empirical evidence?

#3 reason

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Posted 25 November 2003 - 11:15 PM

Unfortunately, belief in immortality doesn't necessarily translate to immortality - otherwise we'd all already be immortal, according to Jung. I think that a lot of us here take the Occam's Razor approach to religious views of immortality...they're nice and all, but there are simpler, more convincing explanations for the existence of these views than the ones involving actual afterlives and deities.

Tipler does a very good job of summing up the roots of the religious experience and the quest for assurances of immortality (with references to important historical theologists) in his book "The Physics of Immortality" - it's a good read, and very enlightening.

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#4 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 25 November 2003 - 11:32 PM

I've viewed a few topics and was quite shocked to see the worries some of you have about dead.

God exists out of:
God the Father
Word of God

The cause of death is sin

Sin came into the world when we disobayed God.

Because everybody sins, everybody dies.

However, God couldn't stand it anymore cause he loves us so much (he created us afterall). So God send His Word (2003 years ago) into the world to save us. His Word was born as Jesus. Jesus lived without sin his whole life and got killed. But death didnt have any power over him, because he was without sin. So Jesus now has the power to give us eternal life.

However, since we're all sinful (nomather how tiny), we will all die, yes me too. But I can and have given all my sins to the attention of Jesus and asked for forgiveness. He forgave me and now I have eternal life. When I die on earth, it will be in my sleep and I'll be totally rested, without worries of what's next, because i KNOW what's after dead. Or perhaps I will die in some other way, but I wont be worried about it one second.

So basicly, if you belief Jesus was the Son of God and he died to safe us from our sins(and thus dead), he will have done it for you aswell. You just have to belief it. I know most of you all belief it's oblivion after dead, but after this first dead on earth you will receive eternal life if you belief in Jesus.

I understand you dont belief me immideately, but i'm speaking out of knowledge that this is true. Just think about it, ofcourse oblivion will be very scary, but it's just not true ;) This body will die and wither and rot and eventually wash away with some river perhaps, but when you belief in Jesus, you will receive a new immortal body that doesn't get sick and doesn't die. There won't be sin in heaven.

Imaging this: life without death, pain, sadness, lies, stealing, raping, etc

So you got a choice:
1 belief it's oblivion after death and spend your whole life trying to figure out a way to be physicly immortal, which will be a waste of time since all people that tried this before you have died
2 live your life without worries with the knowledge of eternal life after dead.

I'll state a piece out of the bible:
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

I'm actually trying to keep this post short, but it's already quite long [huh] I'm not telling every detail that I know. just see that line out of the bible as the truth, because it is the truth.

God created life, God doesn't end it. Our sins end it. And sins exists because of disobedience to God. But Jesus gives eternal life  [B)]


I never cease being dumbfounded by the unbelievable things people believe.

#5 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 25 November 2003 - 11:37 PM

God exists out of:
God the Father
Word of God


I don't know if God exists Hangman, but it would be better for his reputation if he didn't.
Live Long And Well
Rev. William C. O'Rights
The First Immortal

#6 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 25 November 2003 - 11:41 PM

I've viewed a few topics and was quite shocked to see the worries some of you have about dead.

However, since we're all sinful (nomather how tiny), we will all die, yes me too. But I can and have given all my sins to the attention of Jesus and asked for forgiveness. He forgave me and now I have eternal life. When I die on earth, it will be in my sleep and I'll be totally rested, without worries of what's next, because i KNOW what's after dead. Or perhaps I will die in some other way, but I wont be worried about it one second.


It has often been said that you must learn to accept your death. This is not a message from God, but from people. It is a message that makes sense only if you believe that death is inevitable. Instead of accepting death, accept life.

Rev. William C. O'Rights
The First Immortal

#7 hangman

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Posted 25 November 2003 - 11:49 PM

I just see your quest for immortality. Just wonder how many people died before you... billions. And how would you survive being burned alive? And how cripple and blind and deaf would you be at the age of 500? :) And howmany loved-ones would die around you? I wouldn't want to be immortal on this planet... not with everyone else dying

Nah, I belief this body is meant to die, I think that's just something we have to accept.

I'm wondering if you also have a phylosophy of how we got here? Or how just anything started to exist? I have no idea how God started to exist, but I know Him and he's shown me things and told me things that I know out of experience are true.

Yes out of my own experience, I belief, not because I listened to other people.

I respect your decicions and choices to put so much value in wanting to hold on to life, but you'll be surprised how simple life is eventually, just remember these words :)

God loves all of us just as much, he doesnt want you to worry anything, or have pain, or be sad, or die. If he created us to die or to go to hell, he would have created only the hell and us and then threw us in. No, he created all this for us to enjoy. But we disobayed Him and thus turned to sin. However you dont have to stay in sin, you can start looking for God if you want.

I'll tell you something, if you say out loud, God if you're there, come and get me, you'd be surprised how things will end up with you ;) Perhaps not the same second or minute or day, but the sooner you start looking for him, he'll show himself

I speak out of experience, not beccause i read it somewhere :)

#8 hangman

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Posted 25 November 2003 - 11:54 PM

I've viewed a few topics and was quite shocked to see the worries some of you have about dead.

However, since we're all sinful (nomather how tiny), we will all die, yes me too. But I can and have given all my sins to the attention of Jesus and asked for forgiveness. He forgave me and now I have eternal life. When I die on earth, it will be in my sleep and I'll be totally rested, without worries of what's next, because i KNOW what's after dead. Or perhaps I will die in some other way, but I wont be worried about it one second.


It has often been said that you must learn to accept your death. This is not a message from God, but from people. It is a message that makes sense only if you believe that death is inevitable. Instead of accepting death, accept life.

Rev. William C. O'Rights
The First Immortal


yeah i see you're point, and I'm sure you have a source of truth here. But Just keep looking for the truth like I am and don't ever think you know the whole truth, cause I've been to points where I wanted to shout it all over the world and then the next minute My point of view changed very much ;)

You can learn from everyone
everybody is speaking the whole truth to their knowledge
everybody is thinking they know the whole truth

I've been to points where I saw myself in the hymalaya (mount everest thingy) in a cabin and wait for people in search of the truth to their answerd. I've even been to the point where I thought I was Jesus or at least as powerful as him.

No I'm not on drugs and dont smoke and ain't on medication [lol]

#9 hangman

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Posted 25 November 2003 - 11:58 PM

I embrace life and want to live it like i want it lived and I try to enjoy it as much as I can. But If I die, I die and it doesnt have 1 second in my mind. How can I embrace life if I'm afraid of dying?

Dead will come when it comes. Perhaps you can live a few years longer by living in a certain way your whole life or swollowing certain medications. I say just enjoy life exactly as you want it and love others like you love yourself ;)

Oh, and if you get a nice salary off this thing and love what you're doing, go ahead and give it a shot, if you belief that what you're doing is good, please continue :)

Be rightious and try to do good things in life and eventually you also will find God. Dont put too much value in your possessions and money. Cause you came in this world with nothing and you'll go out of it with nothing, even if it's 600 years from now for you :)

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#10 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 12:08 AM

How can I embrace life if I'm afraid of dying?


Lika a true Immortalist, I don't fear death...
I hate it.

Live Long and Well
Rev. William O'Rights
The First Immortal

#11 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 12:22 AM

God exists out of:
God the Father
Word of God

The cause of death is sin

Sin came into the world when we disobayed God.

Because everybody sins, everybody dies.

However, God couldn't stand it anymore cause he loves us so much (he created us afterall). So God send His Word (2003 years ago) into the world to save us. His Word was born as Jesus. Jesus lived without sin his whole life and got killed. But death didnt have any power over him, because he was without sin. So Jesus now has the power to give us eternal life.

However, since we're all sinful (nomather how tiny), we will all die, yes me too. But I can and have given all my sins to the attention of Jesus and asked for forgiveness. He forgave me and now I have eternal life. When I die on earth, it will be in my sleep and I'll be totally rested, without worries of what's next, because i KNOW what's after dead. Or perhaps I will die in some other way, but I wont be worried about it one second.

So basicly, if you belief Jesus was the Son of God and he died to safe us from our sins(and thus dead), he will have done it for you aswell. You just have to belief it. I know most of you all belief it's oblivion after dead, but after this first dead on earth you will receive eternal life if you belief in Jesus.

I understand you dont belief me immideately, but i'm speaking out of knowledge that this is true. Just think about it, ofcourse oblivion will be very scary, but it's just not true ;) This body will die and wither and rot and eventually wash away with some river perhaps, but when you belief in Jesus, you will receive a new immortal body that doesn't get sick and doesn't die. There won't be sin in heaven.

Imaging this: life without death, pain, sadness, lies, stealing, raping, etc

So you got a choice:
1 belief it's oblivion after death and spend your whole life trying to figure out a way to be physicly immortal, which will be a waste of time since all people that tried this before you have died
2 live your life without worries with the knowledge of eternal life after dead.


God created life, ...
But Jesus gives eternal life  [B)]


Religion has tried to fool us into being so amazed by our existence that we feel we must credit it, and be thankful, to a supernatural being. It is also a natural mistake. Even members of the scientific community fall into the trap of trying to impress people with the "miracle" of life. But science and technology routinely make the extraordinary ordinary. Amazement at saving and creating new life and will no longer seem amazing or godly when our descendants do it as a matter of course.

#12 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 12:30 AM

But death didnt have any power over him, because he was without sin. So Jesus now has the power to give us eternal life.
we will all die,

He forgave me and now I have eternal life. When I die on earth,

... but when you belief in Jesus, you will receive a new immortal body that doesn't get sick and doesn't die.

So you got a choice:
1 belief it's oblivion after death and spend your whole life trying to figure out a way to be physicly immortal, which will be a waste of time since all people that tried this before you have died
2 live your life without worries with the knowledge of eternal life after dead.



God created life, God doesn't end it. Our sins end it. And sins exists because of disobedience to God. But Jesus gives eternal life  [B)]



You have to give theologians and the spiritual traditions some credit. For all the blows they have absorbed over the years, they have proven remarkably adaptable adjusting their beliefs to conform with many of the truths of science. Even so, they are playing a losing game. In this game, the superstitious have adopted a retreating line-in-the-sand strategy. As each new scientific revelation overturned an old theological convention, they said, "Okay, you've shown that we were wrong about that, but you haven't shown that our belief system is wrong about this." When science got around to showing that that belief was wrong after all, the theologians said, "Well, you showed that was wrong, but you have not yet shown that this other belief is wrong." It is a spiritual version of the naysayer's losing game. It's not a very good strategy, and it certainly is not rational, but faith is not supposed to be rational, and it is all they have left.

The spiritual traditions have only the final parts of the grand illusion left to fall back on, but they are big chunks: such as the alleged inevitability of death. Seems to make sense, people have been searching for the fountain of youth for ages, and see where they have gotten.

Perpetual fear of death and suffering is the perverse hope of Christianity and Islam because mind-numbing fear is what they have been so successful wielding, past and present. It is no accident that the two faiths that offer the most in terms of eternal bliss are the world's most popular. Nor is it surprising that Judaism, which has surprisingly little to say on the subject of death, has remained a small proudly tenacious belief system. This hope rests on a foundation of sand, sand that theologians persist in sticking their heads into. A so-called living faith actually based on death and suffering looks at SciTech as it presently is neglecting to consider where it may be in the not-so-distant future.

#13 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 12:52 AM

Because everybody sins, everybody dies.
we will all die, yes me too.

But I can and have given all my sins to the attention of Jesus and asked for forgiveness. He forgave me and now I have eternal life.

...but after this first dead on earth you will receive eternal life if you belief in Jesus.

I understand you dont belief me immideately, but i'm speaking out of knowledge that this is true.

This body will die and wither and rot and eventually wash away...

Imaging this: life without death,

So you got a choice:
1 belief it's oblivion after death and spend your whole life trying to figure out a way to be physicly immortal, which will be a waste of time since all people that tried this before you have died
2 live your life without worries with the knowledge of eternal life after dead.

....I'm not telling every detail that I know. just see that line out of the bible as the truth, because it is the truth.


Well, Mr. Hangman, everytime we see these "memes", I repost my Bryan Swinney "Rev O'Rights, Rev(olutions per minute)" Repost. We never get satisfactory answers, perhaps you could take a crack at it. At the risk of boring older members, I give you the following.....

I do not, and cannot concur with your most inaccurate view of your own religion. I am not much of a religious authority, but I would draw your attention to a number of verses from YOUR Bible. Reading the document doesn't depend upon any special respect for the Bible as a sacred text (something I have never felt), or upon the acceptance of a Judaic-Christian belief system. But what I have found in these Biblical quotations is a special feeling that seems quite absent from modern religious teachings: a feeling about life and death. Through these words, echoing across the centuries, I hope they awakening passion that somehow seems to have been lost, even among religions and alleged religious people who cliam that they revere these words as holy yet today.

Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Corinthians 15:51-53


The more I read these words, the more one thing becomes increasingly clear: the "how" of immortality was as much a mystery for these people as it often is today, but this did not diminish their desire for an unending life of the flesh. These people felt the awful imposition of death, and hungered for an end to it. They didn't know all the details of how this was going to happen, but this didn't stop them from feeling the hunger.

Almost all organized religions offer some sort of afterlife as solace for the necessity of physical death. Most forms of modern Christianity, for example, talk about eternal life only as a heavenly existence. Many people are surprised, then, to find that the Bible speaks openly of physical immortality.

Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers.If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness,

Then he is gracious unto him, and saith: Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.

His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth.
Job 33:22-25.

Many biblical references to eternal life are often interpreted in spiritual context, but this is clearly and dramatically physical. Life is spoken of as being destroyed by death. Death itself is referred to as "going down to the pit." And the alternative is depicted in unmistakable biological terms: "His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth."


Following is another, simple, reference.

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1 Corinthians 15:26

Here, death is referred to, not as an entrance to some heavenly existence, but as an "enemy," to be "destroyed." Following is a reference by Christ to physical immortality.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

This reference is perhaps the most unquestionably physical of all of Christ's comments on the subject. It begins with Jesus asserting that his followers will "never see death." Note that he doesn't say that they will survive death, as he might if he was speaking of an afterlife, he says that they will never even see it. So when you say that everyone must die, that's really more your personal opinion, and not any mem that one would be wise to follow.

Listen to what is being said here. Jesus says that his follwers will experience endless life. You and other modern religious authorities may try to explain these statements away by way of various interpretatons based on your own dogma. But a simple, unbiased reading of the text indicates clearly that the Bible is speaking of physical immortality as a desired and promised goal.

So, if you've been thinking that death is inevitable because it is part of the law of God, then you'll have to look elsewhere for justification.

It is clear, from the verses given above, that many of the contributors to the Bible were talking about physical immortality, about life in the flesh. As I've already pointed out, through, this is not a subject much discussed in religious circles these days. Modern religions, and not just Christian ones, prefer to talk about spiritual eternity. Death is seen as a gateway to a better world. Christians talk about heaven. Hindus speak of reincarnation. New age believers describe an ascension to a spiritual plane of existence. All of them see life here on earth as limited, and see death as a release to a better place. Hidden amidst the great diversity of available religions is an unspoken agreement: this life here on earth is just a stepping stone to our ultimate destination.

This well-nigh universal belief in an afterlife has helped to make death seem not only palatable, but actually attractive.

Humanity deserves some fresh options, some core beliefs systems that depict life on earth as desirable and maintainable.

"Our hope of immortality does not come from any religion, but clearly all religions come from that hope."
Live long and well,
The First Immortal, Rev. William O'Rights.

#14 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 12:55 AM

You just have to belief it. I know most of you all belief it's oblivion after dead...


I'm not rying to speak for everyone mind you, but some (if not most) here believe the following reposts.

Death is not a neutral event in nature, and certainly not a liberation of the soul from the imprisonment of the body, but the violent ending of a living unity, the destruction of the real man.

What the nature of this continuance will be, and how the mode of existence of the "departed soul," may be conceived, concerning these matters there is no substantiated human knowledge. And one can almost recognize the great minds by their abstaining from the claim to any such knowledge. We recognize them by their silence.

#15 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 12:56 AM

The arguments for spiritual immortality, weak when you take them one by one, are no more cogent when you take them together. For my part, I cannot see how consciousness can persist when its physical basis has been destroyed, and I am all too sure of the interconnection of my body and my mind to think that any survival of my consciousness apart from my body would be in any sense a survival of myself. If I die I won't go to heaven or hell, there will just be nothingness.

I believe that if I am dead, I am dead. I believe that with my death I am just as much obliterated as the last mosquito you and I squashed. Here's what happens when you die -- you sit in a box and get eaten by worms.

I promise you that when you die, nothing cool happens.

#16 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 04:31 AM

Recent discoveries warrant the positive affirmation that physical immortality is possible to every intelligent being. As this knowledge is unfolded, it seems surprising that these simple principles should have remained so long unrecognized. The truth is unmistakable, and the suggestions are entirely logical.

#17 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 04:32 AM

The idea of the inevitability of old age and decay is founded on misconceptions due to ignorance of the simplest laws of being. Most people imagine that scientist could readily disprove the possibility of living forever, but, on the contrary, some scientist themselves frankly admit that it is possible.

#18 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 04:34 AM

The attainment of immortality requires a clear, scientific understanding of the subject, and unceasing practice of the principles. No faith in the Bible, in a personal God, or in any exterior personality, will save one from the grave. The attainment of perpetual renewal is a scientific process, like the attainment of skill in the music, art, mechanics or invention, the theories must be grasped with the same accuracy, and the principles practiced with the same earnestness. The conception of any supernatural processes must be removed from the mind.

#19 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 04:34 AM

No book in the universe contains the whole truth, or is safe to follow without logical investigation. Even in the bibles of the ages fact and fiction, truth and error, are strangely intermingled. They all require interpretation. Only those who dare to reject as well as accept can be benefited by their perusal. If read with discernment, many a jewel may be found in their pages.

#20 crazedlunatic

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Posted 27 November 2003 - 03:04 AM

I just see your quest for immortality. Just wonder how many people died before you... billions. And how would you survive being burned alive? And how cripple and blind and deaf would you be at the age of 500? ;) And howmany loved-ones would die around you? I wouldn't want to be immortal on this planet... not with everyone else dying

Nah, I belief this body is meant to die, I think that's just something we have to accept.



sry i just think this needs to be said.
Immortality would not simply be withering away at the hands of time hangman. no it would be to stand tall and proud like humans were meant to and be unaffected by times poison. Because no matter how many miracles you pull out of the bible that supposedly saved a few hundred science has beaten them. If you look in history you will see that science has saved BILLIONS, even in early america, life expectancy was very young, sometimes as low as 45. yet now we have a life expectancy of over 75! so who is to say that we were not meant to live forever? and also it is unimportant on how many people have died before us, they are dead and we are alive and if science allows it we're gonna be alive for a good long time from now as well. im sry hangman but i have to say that if god created us to die then he's sick and i wish nothing to do with him! anyone or anything that would make his children and destine them to die has problems, and personally i will keep my faith in science and all its wonders.

#21 hangman

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Posted 06 December 2003 - 02:12 AM

yeah, we definately are meant to live forever!

It's just more simple then you expect :) There is 1 person who gives eternal life and that is Jesus. it's VERY hard to say "Jesus is my Lord" out loud, just try saying it out loud now :)

I've been to the same point where I couldn't say it, but when I did I got loads of rest over me, like alot of weight dropped off me. and just loads of great things happend after that, I'm 100% sure Jesus lives cause what i've experienced can't be coincidence.

So, I would recomment you to start searching for Jesus, cause when you find him and follow him, you will live in eternity. You dont have to do anything you dont want to, just take your time.

seriously, I speak from experience, I'm 100% sure Jesus lives and that he's the only one who gives eternal life. please just give it a shot, cause it's not hard to find if you look in the right direction :)

#22 hangman

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Posted 06 December 2003 - 02:19 AM

Let me say it again, You dont have to do anything you don't want to do! This is very important. Jesus makes us free. If you don't want to start searching for Jesus because you dont like the idea of you sitting in church... well dont let that idea stop you, cause YOU SHOULD NEVER do anything you dont want to do! :) And you won't have to do anything you dont want to do for eternity !

just start searching :) cause who searches, he finds

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#23 MichaelAnissimov

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Posted 06 December 2003 - 08:42 AM

Hangman: you got the wrong forum, this is the worst possible place to preach the word of Jesus, you're amongst some of the most hardcore atheists on the net. Your mission to save souls can will be accomplished more effectively if you target forums or mailing lists where you have a chance of convincing others, but this isn't it.

ImmInst moderators: Are the above posts grounds for moderation/ban/anything? It's obvious this guy isn't here to talk about *realistic* approaches to immortality, and it could be years or decades before he even considers the possibility, so why even pretend?

#24 John Doe

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Posted 06 December 2003 - 12:35 PM

Hangman: you got the wrong forum, this is the worst possible place to preach the word of Jesus, you're amongst some of the most hardcore atheists on the net.  Your mission to save souls can will be accomplished more effectively if you target forums or mailing lists where you have a chance of convincing others, but this isn't it.

ImmInst moderators: Are the above posts grounds for moderation/ban/anything?  It's obvious this guy isn't here to talk about *realistic* approaches to immortality, and it could be years or decades before he even considers the possibility, so why even pretend?


I am opposed to all censorship except for the most drastic cases (and I would not include this one).

One possibility is creating a new forum for unpopular posts. We could move troll posts there.

#25 Bruce Klein

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Posted 06 December 2003 - 04:54 PM

ImmInst moderators: Are the above posts grounds for moderation/ban/anything? It's obvious this guy isn't here to talk about *realistic* approaches to immortality, and it could be years or decades before he even considers the possibility, so why even pretend?


MA, I tend to think we should lean toward inclusion while keeping the mission in mind. Do hangman's posts hamper us in our mission to end death? Or can his ideas provide a foil to our hardcore atheism?

One possibility is creating a new forum for unpopular posts. We could move troll posts there.


John, we do have a 'Free Speech Forum' (anything goes) and 'The Catcher' (off topic) if necessary for the purposes you have described.

#26 hangman

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Posted 06 December 2003 - 08:42 PM

You know, many people think they know the truth and stop searching for it. also many christians think they know all there is to know. Not that it's a bad thing, because everybody got the choice to belief what he wants and be happy where they are.

I figured out that I don't want to live in this world where i have to learn and work till i'm old an cripple... and then when I am old and cripple, i can do what I want. I want to live in a world where I can do what I want every second of the day. And I found out that there is only 1 person who can make me feel happy every second of the day. And that person is Jesus.

Here is your immortal from the bible:

Genesis 5:22
Enoch walked with God after he became the father of Methuselah three hundred years, and became the father of sons and daughters. 23 all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty-five years. 24 Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him.

So, there was a man on the earth whom didnt die.... he just got taken away by God when his time was due. There is also another person whom didnt leave a corpse:

Elijah took his mantle, and wrapped it together, and struck the waters, and they were divided here and there, so that they two went over on dry ground. 9 It happened, when they had gone over, that Elijah said to Elisha, Ask what I shall do for you, before I am taken from you. Elisha said, please let a double portion of your spirit be on me. 10 He said, You have asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so to you; but if not, it shall not be so. 11 It happened, as they still went on, and talked, that behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, which parted them both apart; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. 12 Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariots of Israel and the horsemen of it! He saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and tore them in two pieces. 13 He took up also the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and went back, and stood by the bank of the Jordan. 14 He took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and struck the waters, and said, Where is Yahweh, the God of Elijah? and when he also had struck the waters, they were divided here and there; and Elisha went over.

And a 3rd person didnt leave a crorpse, and that person is Jesus. However, he was dead for 3 days so he could save souls of the people that died before his time(the souls that believed him). But he stood up form the dead again after 3 days and went up to heaven.

This means, you guys are right. Onto this day many christians die physicly and get put in a grave, now, where are the christians that walk with God like Enoch did?

I belief you guys found the truth, a truth not found by many christians. A truth many christians find hard to belief.

So, I wanted to be the first christian to actually say thank you for helping me find another truth.'And who am I to say it's impossible? The bible itself says it's possible :)

Way to go guys, Always be open for the truths people tell and try to figure out yourself if it's the truth or not. Never think you know the worle truth, and always be ready to learn more from other people. So I learned from you, please try to learn from me aswell, because it will be very rewarding :)

#27 kevin

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Posted 06 December 2003 - 10:03 PM

Jesus was an enlightened individual and perhaps knew things about the world which we may today not comprehend. However, I'm certain that if he were around today he would be appalled at the way his words have been perverted by the religious.

Just because I do not accept Jesus as my personal guide to enlightenment does not mean that I have stopped searching or think that I know the answers to life. Quite the contrary.

Religion was a necessity to explain how life could be meaningful in the face of our inability to relieve suffering and death. We have now been given the tools to confront these long time foes through science. Religion allows people to 'accept' suffering in the absence of an explanation and unfortunately with acceptance comes the hopelessness and apathy that has become so ingrained in our species that we will ever be able to do anything about it.

Religion is a real roadblock now that science is revealing that we are coming to a time when suffering due to our failing biology may be something we can avoid. It fosters apathy and the abdication of responsibility for taking action to some figment of our collective imagination.

There is real psychological solace found in the 'surrendering' of one's troubles and accepting our limitations, especially when there is no forseeable way of improving the situation, and I'm glad you have personally found some happiness there in your relationship with Jesus.

I myself am aware however, that it will take the opposite of surrender and acceptance to leverage the newly developed tools of science into real progress against the suffering and misery of disease and death. Religion only offers the same old same old and worse, is the tool of those who see suffering as something to cherish and protect.

Perhaps you would prefer to revisit your convictions realizing the fact that unless Jesus is telling you to do something concrete to bring about real change, you are being distracted and using what energy you have in this life in a less than productive manner.

#28 John Doe

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Posted 06 December 2003 - 10:30 PM

Jesus was an enlightened individual and perhaps knew things about the world which we may today not comprehend.  However, I'm certain that if he were around today he would be appalled at the way his words have been perverted by the religious.


Jesus was not an enlightened individual. He was a raving lunatic:

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26)


"And that servant [slave], which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes." (Luke 12:47)


"There be eunuchs which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." (Matthew 19:12)


"There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom" (Matthew 16:28)


These quotations are all mentioned in the excellent "Why Jesus?" by Barker:

http://www.ffrf.org/...acts/jesus.html

That Western Civilization worships a delusional virgin suicide as its hero only causes me sadness. At least Socrates married.

Kip

#29 kevin

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Posted 07 December 2003 - 12:07 AM

heh.. I didn't say he was perfect.. :)

and given how the translation of the bible can be patchy in its accuracy I don't put a lot of stock in using quotes to prove or refute positions. I look at the general concepts presented by Jesus as being revolutionary for their time and as proof that Jesus was 'englightened'. It is indeed a little sad that his teachings were used as the tool of control they have turned out to be but it just underlines their attraction as a method of providing hope to a hopeless population. If anything, they will gather even more strength in the times of adversity and be used by those would benefit from the fear that drives people into fundamentalism.

If Jesus had wrote those words with his own hand instead of it being a bunch of second hand after the fact scribblings by some potentially lunatic individuals themselves and then interpeted by people with their own agenda, I might agree with you... but that not being the case.. I'll continue to base my opinion of him on generalities rather than suspect specifics. However, given that my opinion of his sanity is unlikely to affect even my actions.. it probably isn't all that important what I believe..

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#30 hangman

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Posted 07 December 2003 - 12:13 AM

Why do you grab onto these quotes like it's all there is to it? How about you pick up your bible and read every part with it's context.

The first quote:
Jesus doesn't tell everyone to go hate their familiy. He says, If you dont hate your family (before they even saw Jesus), you can't be my disciple. Because following Jesus would require them to be with him constantly where-ever and when-ever they will go. So, if you cant leave your family behind you (if you love them too much) it is impossible for you to be his disciple.

second quote:
This is part of a story he is telling. it's about someone having a slave and how that someone would react on that slave if the slave didnt do the work his master asked of him.

third quote:
it's miss-quoted:

For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother’s womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven’s sake. He who is able to receive it, let him receive it.”

So he's saying what happend in the past, not ordering anyone to become eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven's sake. I think people who have rapists/animal-sex/child-sex feelings would make themself eunuchs, so they wouldn't have those feelings anymore and thus not go to hell.

fourth quote:
with context:

"26 For what will it profit a man, if he gains the whole world, and forfeits his life? Or what will a man give in exchange for his life? 27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will render to everyone according to his deeds. 28 Most assuredly I tell you, there are some standing here who will in no way taste of death, until they see the Son of Man coming in his Kingdom.”



and then he will render to everyone according to his deeds
By such a small quote you gave you missed this part. I dont think there is much to worry unless you are evil at heart :)




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