61 replies to this topic

[hangman]

heh..  I didn't say he was perfect.. 

and given how the translation of the bible can be patchy in its accuracy I don't put a lot of stock in using quotes to prove or refute positions.  I look at the general concepts presented by Jesus as being revolutionary for their time and as proof that Jesus was 'englightened'.  It is indeed a little sad that his teachings were used as the tool of control they have turned out to be but it just underlines their attraction as a method of providing hope to a hopeless population.  If anything, they will gather even more strength in the times of adversity and be used by those would benefit from the fear that drives people into fundamentalism.

If Jesus had wrote those words with his own hand instead of it being a bunch of second hand after the fact scribblings by some potentially lunatic individuals themselves and then interpeted by people with their own agenda, I might agree with you...  but that not being the case.. I'll continue to base my opinion of him on generalities rather than suspect specifics. However, given that my opinion of his sanity is unlikely to affect even my actions.. it probably isn't all that important what I believe..

It's very important what you belief This is an important part of the new testamant, which explains alot:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn’t come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God.”

[John Doe]

The first quote:
Jesus doesn't tell everyone to go hate their familiy. He says, If you dont hate your family (before they even saw Jesus), you can't be my disciple. Because following Jesus would require them to be with him constantly where-ever and when-ever they will go. So, if you cant leave your family behind you (if you love them too much) it is impossible for you to be his disciple.

I did not say that Jesus told people to hate their family. I just quoted the Bible. He says:

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

I think your interpretation is mostly correct. But Jesus' statements are still perverse. He is insisting that anyone who follows him hates not only his own family members but his own life too. How is this different than a cult?

second quote:
This is part of a story he is telling. it's about someone having a slave and how that someone would react on that slave if the slave didnt do the work his master asked of him.

Jesus is not telling a value neutral story lacking any symbolism. Rather, he is writing a not so subtle (quite obvious to me now that I read the passage in context, if the following is mistaken please correct me) metaphor of a master (Jesus or God) and a servant or steward (the Christian or believer) and insisting that a person who dares to think that Jesus' return is "delayed" will be beaten with the unbelievers. Let's look at the passage in context:

12:42
And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

12:43
Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

12:44
Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

12:45
But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
     
12:46
The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

12:47
And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

12:48
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

12:49
I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

12:50
But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

Did Jesus come
to bring peace? 
12:51
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

12:52
For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
 
12:53
The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Notice this last verse demonstrates Jesus' commitment to family conflict in even more explicit and unambiguous words. As an analogy, Jesus is warning that Christians be on their best behavior before the return or resurrection of Christ. Both the literal and figurative interpretations endorse corporal punishment and slavery and this entirely consistent with the Christian notion of hell. Christians follow God's commandments or he punishes you. Is this not slavery?

Once again, I cannot emphasize enough how painfully obvious it is that Jesus did not anticipate future developments such as the Copernican, Darwinian, Civil Rights movement, antibiotics, or the subdividing of Christianity into mutually exclusive sects none of which Jesus explicitly endorses.

So he's saying what happend in the past, not ordering anyone to become eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven's sake. I think people who have rapists/animal-sex/child-sex feelings would make themself eunuchs, so they wouldn't have those feelings anymore and thus not go to hell.

So you admit that God intentionally gave people natural urges to commit rape or have sex with children or animals (most Christians I know would not admit this)? And you furthermore claim that God expects these people to intentionally sever their own testicles to correct this defect? This is grotesque and irrational.

By such a small quote you gave you missed this part. I dont think there is much to worry unless you are evil at heart

I think you might have missed my meaning. Jesus said that no one would taste death before the "Son of Man" comes in his Kingdom. Jesus and everyone he ever knew on earth died two thousand years ago and the Son of Man has yet to arrive. This would seem to be but one more example of a future development about which Jesus had no clue.

[hangman]

I think your interpretation is mostly correct.  But Jesus' statements are still perverse.  He is insisting that anyone who follows him hates not only his own family members but his own life too.  How is this different than a cult?:

He's not insisting, he's telling them the truth, which is: It will be impossible for you to follow me, unless you hate your life/family and are ready to follow me wherever I go without anyone holding you back to follow and listen to me. It's not said to christians of today to hate their family and wife... it is to the crouwd of people who were there with him and said they wanted to follow him. But they loved their family and friends too much to abandom them and follow Jesus.

Jesus is not telling a value neutral story lacking any symbolism.  Rather, he is writing a not so subtle (quite obvious to me now that I read the passage in context, if the following is mistaken please correct me) metaphor of a master (Jesus or God) and a servant or steward (the Christian or believer) and insisting that a person who dares to think that Jesus' return is "delayed" will be beaten with the unbelievers.  Let's look at the passage in context:

[[[bible quotes]]]

Notice this last verse demonstrates Jesus' commitment to family conflict in even more explicit and unambiguous words.  As an analogy, Jesus is warning that Christians be on their best behavior before the return or resurrection of Christ.  Both the literal and figurative interpretations endorse corporal punishment and slavery and this entirely consistent with the Christian notion of hell.  Christians follow God's commandments or he punishes you.  Is this not slavery?

No it's not slavery, read this part of the quote again:

12:45
But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

So here you have a servant who says "Jesus won't come yet, I can so what I want, I'll be good when i see him coming" and he will beat the menservants and maidens and be drunk.

And here is the reaction of the Lord on this servent (who beats people up and gets drunk):

12:46
The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

12:47
And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

So, the Lord will come when he won't expect it and he will punish him for his evil deeds. Also, if you know that God doesn't want you to lie, but you still do it, you will also be punished. God has the best for you and wants to reward you for what you've done for him, but if you don't obey God, how do you expect him to reward you? Why would God treat that servant any better then the way he treated others? The servent beat the manservants and maidens, why shouldn't he be beaten himself?

Once again, I cannot emphasize enough how painfully obvious it is that Jesus did not anticipate future developments such as the Copernican, Darwinian, Civil Rights movement, antibiotics, or the subdividing of Christianity into mutually exclusive sects none of which Jesus explicitly endorses.

Ofcourse he knew all that, and not every person that says Jesus is the Lord and preaches about him and does great deeds in his name will reach the Kingdom of Heaven.If you do bad deeds and good deeds to make it cancel eachother out, you are not understanding the truth. Jesus will tell that person, I never knew you. Cause people who know Jesus, will obay him and know him and love him and follow him. And if you know Jesus, you will not do evil deeds

So you admit that God intentionally gave people natural urges to commit rape or have sex with children or animals (most Christians I know would not admit this)?  And you furthermore claim that God expects these people to intentionally sever their own testicles to correct this defect?  This is grotesque and irrational.

people choose to disobay God, and thus fell to sin, and thus started raping women, children and animals... and alot of other bad things like murder, lying, stealing, hating, etc. If you have urges to rape someone, it's better for you to be without testicles and not sin, then to be with testicles and rape people and animals. Cause those who have testicles and rape, will burn in hell forever. I find that a good judgement, dont you?

I think you might have missed my meaning.  Jesus said that no one would taste death before the "Son of Man" comes in his Kingdom.  Jesus and everyone he ever knew on earth died two thousand years ago and the Son of Man has yet to arrive.  This would seem to be but one more example of a future development about which Jesus had no clue.

I think he is talking about him rising up to heaven(his Kingdom). Judas killed himself after he betrayed Jesus, which would be the person who tasted dead before the Son of Man comes in his Kingdom. Maybe others died before it happend aswell.

[hecksheri]

Did you know hangman (interesting choice of name by the way, do you consider it your duty to punish those who have sinned), there are scores of people out there who do not believe that god, heaven, or hell even exists, and who would never rape a woman, child, or animal; who would never beat a servant or anyone else for that matter, and who are perfectly capable of living good productive lives without hurting other people or animals. They do all of this of their own free will, not because of the fear of ultimate punishment. Perhaps not everyone is capable of behaving on their own. Are you?

[hangman]

Did you know hangman (interesting choice of name by the way, do you consider it your duty to punish those who have sinned), there are scores of people out there who do not believe that god, heaven, or hell even exists, and who would never rape a woman, child, or animal; who would never beat a servant or anyone else for that matter, and who are perfectly capable of living good productive lives without hurting other people or animals. They do all of this of their own free will, not because of the fear of ultimate punishment. Perhaps not everyone is capable of behaving on their own. Are you?

I never did those things either, and I understand that there are many people who lived and died and never even heard of Jesus. And I know that not everybody that says he's a christian will go to heaven. And not everybody who isn't christian will go to hell. Because true christians aren't judged and the other people will be judged for their deeds as the bible states. So whomever doesn't belief or never even heard of Jesus will be judged according to their deeds. However these words aren't just for the sinners

if you're down, full of worries, scared, ill, addicted, sad, suicidal, unhappy with yourself, stressed or just thinks life sucks... then there is one person who can free you from all those throughts and worries and that's Jesus.

And even if you don't see yourself in any of these ways, then it's still also for you, because putting your trust in Jesus is something very rewarding. And it's your choice to do that or not If you think you'll pass the judgement of every word you spoke and every deed you did with flying colors, then go ahead and risk it.

I'm just here to tell people they have this choice. You people want to live forever, well so do I and I know 100% sure that I will live forever. It's your choice to rather look for eternal life in other ways, but I assure you, they don't exist. Everyone died before you, and you will die sometime aswell (and not more then 100 years from now). If you can't add 1 hair to your head, how do you expect to be able to add 100 more years to your life? It's good that you try to hold on to life, but doesn't everybody that isn't suicidal?

You are in a very rich and happy position to even have the choice and freedom to think for yourself and live life the way you want to. perhaps you have a swimming poll in your yard and have loads of parties and have alot of fun in life. But what if you were born in Africa with only 1 arm and parents with aids and yourself with aids and under starvation, would you want to be immortal?

Do you want to be immortal in a place where you could be sick, ill, unhappy, mutilated, beaten, stabbed, etc? I dont! I want to be in a world where noone dies and noone gets sick and noone is unhappy or sad or ill or beaten or starving. And this world can't give that to me.

Again, I'm just here to tell people what choice they have. And to help you asnwer questions that come to your mind.

[alexturse]

There are many real concepts that church operates and that are true. Many people operate the same concepts using other names for them.
According to Catholic Church a human soul (or atheistic consciousness) is a means to communicate with God. And this means is immortal. Nothing can kill it, and there is no necessity to find confirmation of this fact in Bible because it is only the collection of many different stories that have no direct meaning. Let us forgive the church some exaggeration. But …
Any concrete consciousness can stop existing only if its material carrier is destroyed. So the question is how to substitute consciousness carrier just in time. However that it could be done without faith in immortality of soul and its independence of meat body.
Without faith any Mind Upload is nonsense because the result will deny being person who uploaded his mind. Therefore the faith in soul immortality is mandatory if you want to be immortal, and church is right …

[hangman]

I don't know what mandatory is and what you mean by Mind Upload?

However, as you may have noticed, your and my body isn't immortal. We get ill or we break something or we lose something (hope not). How are potions going to stop us from losing body parts or not getting killed? If we had nuclear winter, wouldn't you die of starvation and radiation and freeze to dead? If a car ran you over, wouldn't you die?

So sooner or later you will die, that's a given fact. I hope you see this fact, because it is a fact. This body is moral, so sooner or later it will die. perhaps with science and perfect living and eating habbits you can last alittle longer then other people (but will your life be asmuch fun?).

So what's the meaning of dead and what happens after it? I haven't been there yet, but I do know that it's not the end

I understnad you don't want to think about what's after dead because it's unknown to you, you want to know, but there is no way to know unless you die and experience it... so you want to hold on to life because dead is uncertain and unknown and it fightens people.

But there is nothing to be afraid about, because Jesus came out victorious over dead. And if you belief in Him, He will also have done it for you If you don't want to die, you don't have to, because who beliefs in Jesus as the Son of God will not taste dead. Your body will wither and die, because it's mortal, but your consciouness as you call it will not die. And then you will recieve a new and immortal body.

What you don't belief won't happen. (doesn't mean that what you belief will happen, it means what you don't belief won't happen for you)

If you don't belief Jesus is the Son of God and defeated dead by dying for our sins, then it won't be true for you and you'll be on your own and die.

But those who belief in Jesus will not taste dead, not now and not for eternity.

[Jace Tropic]

Hi, hangman, I don’t have a massive philosophical scheme from which to draw, so my questions, I hope, will be simple for you to answer. I wanted to say something since you dodged very important questions and ideas originated by BJKlein and thefirstimmortal. My questions are numbered so that it will be more evident whether or not you are playing dodge ball.

1. Do you place much importance on empirical evidence?

2. Did our “soul” exist before coming into being in a corporeal body?

3. If it did, what is the point in giving this “soul” a chance to “fail” in a corporeal universe just to have it sent to hell?

4. If it did not, what is the point in giving this “soul” a chance to “fail” in a corporeal universe just to have it sent to hell?

5. If there is a God, why does the concept only manifest in sentient beings who are aware of death and complicated feelings of suffering?

6. If there is a God, what kind of sense does it make to create creatures with many limitations just to send them to hell if they do what they can to recognize these limitations and overcome them by way of intelligence augmentation? (Keep in mind that survival is a process of living that comes with unavoidable costs.)

7. If there is a God, what is the significance of a lion cub being eaten alive by her mother’s new mate?

8. You feel that something must have created the universe. This suggests that there must be a cause for everything. Then what created God? If we do not need a cogent explanation for this, why is it any different to consider not needing an explanation beyond what perpetually evolving philosophy and science can provide?

9. If people like yourself are steadfast in their belief in doing the right thing, why try to obstruct others who are apparently going to hell because they are atheists or what not? You are going to heaven. People who are “victims” are going to heaven. Why create a scene? Better yet, why not just kill yourselves now and create a win-win situation for everyone? We like physical life. You like fantasy life. So… bye-bye.

[hecksheri]

[ I want to be in a world where noone dies and noone gets sick and noone is unhappy or sad or ill or beaten or starving. And this world can't give that to me.

Again, I'm just here to tell people what choice they have. And to help you asnwer questions that come to your mind.

So please, without resorting to quotes from a bible that I do not believe is any more infallable, sacred, or divinely inspired than any other work of historical fiction, answer me this: What evidence do you have that you are going to a world where there is no death, sickness, unhappiness, pain or hunger?

[hangman]

Okay this is going the wrong way. I think you people think that I think that I am a super human. Well I don't think I am and I don't know everything. I am just human like you and every question that gets answered, you get 50 new questions back for it. I'm just 20 years old!

Okay, I'll type a new topic about how to find God for yourself, cause this question and answer rounds don't help.

[Jace Tropic]

hangman: ... and every question that gets answered, you get 50 new questions back for it.

Welcome to the scientific community.

hangman: I'm just 20 years old!

So what? Do a "MichaelAnissimov" post search. That'll make your blood boil.

[thefirstimmortal]

Hangman: you got the wrong forum, this is the worst possible place to preach the word of Jesus, you're amongst some of the most hardcore atheists on the net.  Your mission to save souls can will be accomplished more effectively if you target forums or mailing lists where you have a chance of convincing others, but this isn't it.

ImmInst moderators: Are the above posts grounds for moderation/ban/anything?  It's obvious this guy isn't here to talk about *realistic* approaches to immortality, and it could be years or decades before he even considers the possibility, so why even pretend?

John Doe

I am opposed to all censorship except for the most drastic cases (and I would not include this one).

One possibility is creating a new forum for unpopular posts. We could move troll posts there.

Michael is Correct, we have a Forum for unwelcome threads, and if this conversation is not welcome here, it should be moved there.

And Jace is correct Hangman, your playing dodge ball big time. You have not even come close to answering my posts.

You wrote, "I'm just here to tell people what choice they have. And to help you asnwer questions that come to your mind."

That's fine, than answer the questions put to you. It's your religion, they are your beliefs, support them. Michael wasn't kidding when he said "you're amongst some of the most hardcore atheists on the net." You got your work cut out for you.

Clearly Hangman, the problem you have is that you assume that it is in our power to believe or not to believe your religion and your God, whereas our minds can only believe that which it thinks true. We can only be held accountable for those actions which are influenced by our will. But belief is utterly distinct from and unconnected with choice or decision, it is the apprehension of the agreement or disagreement of the ideas that compose any proposition.

Belief is a passion or involuntary operation of the mind, and, like other passions, its intensity is precisely proportionate to the merit or demerit one gives to any idea or proposition.

As to your Christian system of faith, it appears to me as a species of atheism, a sort of religious denial of God. It professes to believe in a man rather than in a God. It is a compound made up chiefly of man-ism with but little deism, and is as near to atheism as twilight is to darkness.

You think all gods but yours are false. We simply don't make an exception for the last one. I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why we dismiss yours.


Rev.William O'Rights
"Born Again Skeptic"

[hecksheri]

First you say:

Again, I'm just here to tell people what choice they have. And to help you asnwer questions that come to your mind.

Then it seems you have a change of heart.

I am just human like you and every question that gets answered, you get 50 new questions back for it. I'm just 20 years old!.

Is this a plea for mercy?

Okay, I'll type a new topic about how to find God for yourself, cause this question and answer rounds don't help.

You seem to think that it is lack of experience that keeps us from finding a god. I promise you that I have had plenty of experience in church. Read my introductory post. I have been to church plenty. I have read the bible cover to cover. I have been preached at from many pulpits and many denominations. I have been baptized three times, methodist at birth, and pentecostal in 2 different rivers, all before I was old enough to legaly assert my right not to be subjected to it all. It didn't work then and it is not going to work now. I cannot be deluded into thinking that there is a god or a devil or a heaven or a hell.

We humans have aquired enough knowledge that these explanations of the universe are no longer neccesary. We know now that the world is not on the back of a giant turtle, that the world isn't flat, that it was not created in 7 days, that there was never a great flood, and that we evolved not in accordance to the whim of a deity, but because the materials and circumstances that were neccesary happened to exist. We are responsible for our own future, and to trust in something that does not exist to give us that future is to throw that future away. We are the enlightened ones who are doing what we can to make our lives as long and as wonderful as is within our power, and we happen to believe that we have quite a bit of potential on that path. You will not sway us from that path with your silly unsubstantiated myths.

-sherry

[thefirstimmortal]

It's just more simple then you expect There is 1 person who gives eternal life and that is Jesus. it's VERY hard to say "Jesus is my Lord" out loud, just try saying it out loud now

"JESUS IS MY LORD" [!] [:o] [!]
"JESUS IS MY LORD" [:o]
"JESUS IS MY LORD" [huh]
"jesus is my lord"


....hummm, sorry, didn't do it for me.

[thefirstimmortal]

Ofcourse he knew all that, and not every person that says Jesus is the Lord and preaches about him and does great deeds in his name will reach the Kingdom of Heaven.If you do bad deeds and good deeds to make it cancel eachother out, you are not understanding the truth. Jesus will tell that person, I never knew you. Cause people who know Jesus, will obay him and know him and love him and follow him. And if you know Jesus, you will not do evil deeds

If God wants us to do a thing, he should make his wishes sufficiently clear. Sensible people will wait till he has done this before paying much attention to him. People who believe in a divine creator, trying to live their lives in obedience to his supposed wishes and in expectation of a supposed eternal reward, are victims of the greatest confidence trick of all time.

[thefirstimmortal]

Here are some more questions for you to throw on the pile.

If he is infinitely good, what reason should I have to fear him? If he is infinitely wise, why should I have doubts concerning my future? If he knows all, why warn him of my needs and fatigue him with my prayers? If he is everywhere, why erect temples to him? If he is just, why fear that he will punish the creatures that he has filled with weaknesses? If grace does everything for them, what reason would he have for recompensing them? If he is all-powerful, how offend him, how resist him? If he is reasonable, how can he be angry at the blind, to whom he has given the liberty of being unreasonable? If he is immovable, by what right do we pretend to make him change his decrees? If he is inconceivable, why occupy ourselves with him?

IF HE HAS SPOKEN, WHY IS THE UNIVERSE NOT CONVINCED?

If the knowledge of a God is the most necessary, why is it not the most evident and the clearest?

[hecksheri]

People who believe in a divine creator, trying to live their lives in obedience to his supposed wishes and in expectation of a supposed eternal reward, are victims of the greatest confidence trick of all time.

Indeed Hangman, if you want to see how the con works, this site explains it quite well:

http://www.jhuger.com/kisshankbutt.mv

[thefirstimmortal]

Indeed Hangman, if you want to see how the con works, this site explains it quite well:

In the Bullshit Department, even a Politician can't hold a candle to a clergyman. 'Cause I gotta tell you the truth, hangman. When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims: religion.

It's no contest. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever sold.

Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit!

[John Doe]

Hangman, I will try to be short:

No it's not slavery, read this part of the quote again:

You make a very good point. The image we have is a master punishing a slave for punishing his slave. I am not sure how to respond to this image because the idea is absurd. Of course, we might want to punish a person for beating someone else. But why didn't God say, very explicitly, that slavery is evil, especially if knew about the future? Perhaps the example I cited is not very persuasive that God endorsed slavery, I grant you that, but is this still not ridiculously far, and confusing (you have posted at least twice trying to explain what God meant by this cryptic passage), from the loud, authoratative statement against slavery that we would expect from a God who could predict every whiplash that hit the back of a slave in the nineteenth century?

So, the Lord will come when he won't expect it and he will punish him for his evil deeds. Also, if you know that God doesn't want you to lie, but you still do it, you will also be punished. God has the best for you and wants to reward you for what you've done for him, but if you don't obey God, how do you expect him to reward you? Why would God treat that servant any better then the way he treated others? The servent beat the manservants and maidens, why shouldn't he be beaten himself?

This logic sounds vaguely rational until you remember that God does not have to play by the rules that humans do (God doesn't have to be jealous, impregnant a woman, have a son, love his children, all of these are anthropomorphic ideas, including, especially punishing others). God could separate us into separate universes so that we could never hurt each other. God put us into a virtual playground. God could construct the universe so that although a victim gives every appearance of feeling pair and fear, the actual consious manifestation of this response is pleasure and happiness. God could create physical or psychological barriers to prevent our evil wishes from ever reaching fruition. Indeed, he need not limit himself to constains our actions but not our wills, he could just as well constrain our wills from ever wanting too bad things, and still know whether we ever would have done these bad things, because God, by definition, knows everything. There are surely thousands of possibilities that I have failed to consider and that I could never understand. God could find a way to solve the problem of people hurting other people without hurting more people. He is allpowerful. His species never evolved a retribution impulse.

Once again, I cannot emphasize enough how painfully obvious it is that Jesus did not anticipate future developments such as the Copernican, Darwinian, Civil Rights movement, antibiotics, or the subdividing of Christianity into mutually exclusive sects none of which Jesus explicitly endorses.

Ofcourse he knew all that, and not every person that says Jesus is the Lord and preaches about him and does great deeds in his name will reach the Kingdom of Heaven.If you do bad deeds and good deeds to make it cancel eachother out, you are not understanding the truth. Jesus will tell that person, I never knew you. Cause people who know Jesus, will obay him and know him and love him and follow him. And if you know Jesus, you will not do evil deeds

How can you be so sure that he knew all of that? These are some of the most important developments in the history of mankind that have helped or hurt millions and millions of people. That God would fail to comment upon these or even demonstrate the slightest knowledge of them is either horrible ignorance or horrible negligence.

people choose to disobay God, and thus fell to sin, and thus started raping women, children and animals... and alot of other bad things like murder, lying, stealing, hating, etc. If you have urges to rape someone, it's better for you to be without testicles and not sin, then to be with testicles and rape people and animals. Cause those who have testicles and rape, will burn in hell forever. I find that a good judgement, dont you?

First, this is one interpretation of what someone wrote many decades after Jesus died. The most common and probable interpretation (the ones that documents of early Christian writers surely endorse) is that Jesus was talking about normal lust and abstinence rather than rare perversions.

Second, even if your suggestion happens to be correct, we all readily agree that raping women and animals is horrible and horrendous and I am not beginning to defend that. However, buring in hell for eternity is also horrible and horrendous, to an infinitely worse degree. Is the punishment not all out of proportion to the crime here? Would any woman or animal not readily choose a single rape, or even sequence of rapes, or even a billion rapes, than an eternity of infinite suffering? Is the accusion that this punishment can only be motivated by some latent vindictive, sadistic impulse not all too inviting?

I think you might have missed my meaning.  Jesus said that no one would taste death before the "Son of Man" comes in his Kingdom.  Jesus and everyone he ever knew on earth died two thousand years ago and the Son of Man has yet to arrive.  This would seem to be but one more example of a future development about which Jesus had no clue.

I think he is talking about him rising up to heaven(his Kingdom). Judas killed himself after he betrayed Jesus, which would be the person who tasted dead before the Son of Man comes in his Kingdom. Maybe others died before it happend aswell.

Jesus said that no one would taste death before the Son of Man returns. Not after.

You are arguing against yourself.

[John Doe]

Welcome to the scientific community.


So what? Do a "MichaelAnissimov" post search. That'll make your blood boil.

[g:)]

Michael sharpens the regret I feel for squandering my high school years.

[alexturse]

However, God couldn't stand it anymore cause he loves us so much (he created us afterall). So God send His Word (2003 years ago) into the world to save us. His Word was born as Jesus. Jesus lived without sin his whole life and got killed. But death didnt have any power over him, because he was without sin.

There is only one way Christ could survive and show himself to people. Obviously, he has uploaded his mind before his body became dead. Then he could show people his live image and speak to them using all his prevoius knowledge and save us.

[tobithus]

Welcome Hangman

I must start by saying, not too harshly that I object to your use of the word "cripple".

I am disabled, and I'm not about to put my personal salvation in the hands of a 2000 year old hippy mystic.

Religion is none of my business. If you knew me, you'd understand why.

People here (and correct me if I'm wrong everyone) are working on prolonging life in THIS realm by our own efforts. I like that a lot better than intangible God-bothering.

[makoto]

"However, God couldn't stand it anymore cause he loves us so much (he created us afterall). So God send His Word (2003 years ago) into the world to save us. His Word was born as Jesus. Jesus lived without sin his whole life and got killed. But death didnt have any power over him, because he was without sin. So Jesus now has the power to give us eternal life."

Also Jesus was born either 3 or six years before 0 year.Cant remember which it was though jus throwing that in.

[makoto]

Also he cant answer questions about god because there is no way for him to have the answers. He is preaching(from what i can tell) that you must beleive and feel Jesus's presence after that no answers are needed. God can do what he likes this is how it is and questions are useless just beleive.

O and can god microwave a burrito so hot that even he couldnt eat it??

Besides if you want a god beleive in Apep hes awesome. Hes like the little engine that could he just keeps trying .He knows eventually Ra will slip up and then the world win end. Hes like a god of perseverance(or destruction w/e) which is a good thing to beleive in if you wanna just live ur live as long as u can and keep doin ur job(the perseverance part not the destruction).

O and i would just like to say i love these boards no one has used the all caps button yet!!

[DJS]

O and can god microwave a burrito so hot that even he couldnt eat it??

Are you a fan of Christianburner.com Makoto?

[makoto]

Nope it was on the simpsons.

Its just a funnier version of the could he make a rock so huge he couldnt ift it.

[DJS]

Yeah, I hear ya. That's odd though, I don't remember that episode of the Simpson and I thought I had watched everyone...oh well, I guess everyone misses a few over the years. Say, if you like the Simpsons you should definitely check out The Family Guy.

[jestersloath]

When i think the THEORY of eternel life and Jesus and God and all that and then listen to people talk about how the THEORY of evolution dosent hav a start, i think well nither does the IDEA of religion. By peole saying this makes me realize it is ALL an OPPINION wich makes me realize so is the IDEA of eternal life,
Its just all the egotisical jesus freaks that that cause people liek me to think the way i do. isnt that funny. Ha ha ha, funny

[lightowl]

Oh my God, hangman, you have opened my eyes.... NOT.

If I where to count how many time I have dismissed those groundless claims you make in my life, I would never find the answers I seek. I hope your beliefs will comfort you on your death-bed, and I wish people like you would just SHUT-UP and leave people in Peace from that crazy talk.

[lightowl]

Oh my God

Oh, and that was just to rub it in.