271 replies to this topic

[thefirstimmortal]

I'm not sure if it would be of any use, but if things are looking truly desperate I am technically trained to administer IV's, although the legalities of it are somewhat complicated as an EMT/Paramedic in training. I can perform procedures under medical direction so hypothetically a doctor from anywhere could give the order. By the end of today I'll be on winter break for the next few weeks and if need be I could take a little road trip; but I imagine if the IV is the only issue there are plenty of people closer who could do this. Of course, I do also know CPR, resuscitation etc. but I hope it won't come to that. Given my relatively minimal level of training (compared to, say, a doctor) and experience, I'm really putting this out there if nothing else works out.

I don't see this as very practical. We live a long ways away. How did you see this as a working plan? Distance, time travel. I do have to thank you for stepping up to the plate and maling this offer. Give me your proposal.

What are you talking about? Indiana to Maine is a couple hours by air...no big deal..and there is money enough to cover it - if not from
any of the funds that have been collecting money...(which, oddly enough, seem to be more for death than life) - than from members
who have offered to help with money in just such a situation. This is your life Bill !! don't be so cavalier with it...
Finally someone steps to the plate and you are telling them it's not practical?? I don't get it. You're dying. You need help and you are
saying it's not practical? Forgive me, but this is just absurd to me. Is dying without trying more practical?
PetaKiaRose offered to help
and there are funds enough to help him get to you, and I am shocked that nobody controlling those funds has posted one encouraging word here
about using those funds to actually help you live...and now that somebody finally steps to the plate, nobody responds positively to it? not even
you? What the f? Is this just an exercise in futility? I know if I were in a life and death situation I would find a way to make this happen, not
look for excuses why it's not practical. If the issue of him having to stay around for a while becomes a problem, he could teach you or carol how to administer the IV yourself. How could you not take advantage of this opportunity?

And Shannon and Anthony please speak up about available funds. I've PM'd you both and the only response I got was from Shannon saying in reference to PetKiaRose needing funding to get to Bill
"If he contacts us that he is willing, I think Anthony can access his funds more quickly too"
Not exactly resounding with enthusiasm, but at least acknowledging that it can be done!
So there you have it. Can we now please do something positive about this situation instead of wasting precious time bullshitting about it?
I can only be a catalyst for action. You have to follow through.

Missminni, I'm Asking the tough hard questions that have to get asked. Indiana to Maine, no big deal? Well, what is the plane ticket going to cost? We have to start costing this out. That ticket will put him in the closest city Portland. What then, he has to get to the target location, I assumee that we are going to have to rental car that, I have no idea,what's that running nowadays? I have about 80% to maybe 90% of the correct equipment, but I may have a few things needed to complete the administration set. Time delays. We do not know that we can financially pull this off, we don't even know how much it would cost, which is why I want to know what is specifically being proposed.

There are a few issues on the table that have not been addressed aside for the funding of PetKiaRose. PetKiaRose writes "I can perform procedures under medical direction so hypothetically a doctor from anywhere could give the order. " Well, we don't have an order like that written and I don't see one on the horizon. Hell, if we had that, we could go nurse shopping in my county. I think without such doctors orders, this might be a stand alone deal breaker for PetKiaRose. But Maybe I'm missing something here, so I ask again, give me the proposal.

[thefirstimmortal]

tham, missminni didn't bill accept petkiarose's plan when he said "Give me your proposal." Sounded to me like a cautious "yes" with a healthy dose of scepticism. I hope I am right.

Your in the ballpark Kismet. I am sceptical, but let's roll up our sleeves and number crunch it.

But what about the legal problems if a paramedic in training administers IVs to a patient without his doctor's consent?

I think we have to get PetkiaRose's answer to that first.

[thefirstimmortal]

TFI, you up for a phone call today? Will try and call in a bit...

Anytime, you are welcome to try. 24/7, I have no set sleep time, so just whenever ya want, try.

[thefirstimmortal]

Bill is on his deathbed. If a paramedic tries to save his life do you think there
will be a problem with that? And if there is a concern that such issue might arise, Bill can sign a waiver of liability.
I hope this is not going to become the new argument that wastes yet more precious time ....instead of just getting PetakiaRose out there.

I don't know. Administering treatment most probably unproven by FDA standards in a hospital without any doctor's consent just sounds like it could lead to huge liability issues (great if a waiver of liability solves them), but if PetaKiaRose is aware of all the problems and wants to get on with the plan it's fine. Personally I would too.
You sound a little embittered as if I, or any other people trying to help, were trying to waste time to begin with, on the contrary I don't think our discussion will do any harm or waste anyone's time, but it could prevent a rude awakening.

I happen to believe all of this has been enlightning on so many levels I hardly know where to begin.

[thefirstimmortal]

What are you talking about? Indiana to Maine is a couple
hours by air...no big deal..and there is money enough to
cover it - if not from any of the funds that have been
collecting money...(which, oddly enough, seem to be more
for death than life) - than from members who have offered
to help with money in just such a situation.

Yes, I too had thought it was ironic that so much effort had
gone into collecting funds (and so much more collected) for
an exercise in death (with all due respect - highly controversial,
way too futuristic and venturing into the unknown, in my opinion),
rather than one to preserve existing life - which forms the very
fundamental principle and core of this Institute, and that of others
like the Life Extension Foundation - in the first place.

This, after all, is about LIFE extension - the principles
of extending the quantity and/or quality of life. Cryonics, for
what it's worth, must come secondary, and ONLY after
all attempts to extend/preserve EXISTING life have failed.


Shannon, Mind, Anthony, Minni, Bill - why not try making a
request with the Venturists for permission to use the cryonics
fund for expenses relating to Bill's vitamin C therapy ? No harm
trying, I think.

I have spoken on this issue many times before. My position remains the same.

[tham]

Bill, get that Kurt Russell (oops, Ebrahim) to give you
an infusion of zoledronate immediately. I've posted on
it in the "Conversations" section.

http://www.zometa.com/

http://www.us.zometa.../lung_other.jsp

http://www.ncbi.nlm....l=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm....l=pubmed_docsum


http://www.poz.com/a...761_15747.shtml

http://www.cacons.or...ation/edu06.htm

http://my.clevelandc...oledronate.aspx


Failing that, the other bisphosphonates - pamidronate,
risedronate, ibandronate and alendronate may be used.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....l=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm....l=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm....l=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm....l=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm....l=pubmed_docsum


In cancer patients refractory to both bisphosphonates
and calcitonin, anti-parathyroid hormone related-protein
monoclonal antibodies (anti-PTHrP mAB) are effective.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....l=pubmed_docsum

[thefirstimmortal]

[quote name='PetaKiaRose' date='17-Dec 2008, 02:03 PM' post='284716']
Sorry guys,
I just contacted my Paramedic instructor about the legalities of doing this and they are overwhelmingly troublesome. Firstly, I am currently only certified as an EMT-Basic. I would first have to certify as an Intermediate EMT to be allowed to administer IVs outside of a specific student setting. Then I would have to file for reciprocity for certification in Maine; and this all assumes that there's a physician there signing an order for me to work under. Evidently this whole process is very drawn out, and would take a month at the very least. Trying to do this without going through the proper legal channels could easily result in me not (and probably never) getting my paramedic certification. I wish Bill the best, and I'm sorry if I got you guys excited over a bad idea, but I cannot help like this.
I want to Thank You for stepping up to the plate PetaKiaRose. The fact that the laws apparently shut this offer down is unfortunate but at least we know of yet another way we can't pursue this.
Live Long and Well
William O'Rights

[tham]

Looking for someone to start you on the vitamin C
seems like a dead end. As Minni said, endless obstacles.

Given this situation and your condition, I would think
that your most appropriate option is homeopathy.

In fact, homeopathy treatment suits you perfectly.
Homeopathic medicine are usually tiny globules which
you place on or under your tongue and don't need
to be swallowed.

Just going out to buy some homeopathic medicine is
not a good idea. A disease as complex as cancer must
be treated constitutionally. A full case history must be
taken by an experienced homeopathic doctor and a
"remedy picture" arrived at, to suit your overall disposition
and condition before the right remedy is prescribed.

As such, constitutional homeopathic treatment is a highly
individualized affair. No two small cell lung cancer patients,
even with the same staging and symptoms, will be prescribed
the same remedy.

This looks like the nearest homeopath to you, about 11 miles
away. Note that she is qualified as an Advanced Registered
Nurse Practitioner.

Yvonne Turner, ARNP
Integrated Medical Health Care
10 Railroad Avenue
Springvale, ME 04083
(207) 324-8088
ytherb@psouth.net

http://www.homeopath...ne.org/find.php

[Shannon Vyff]

William can you get home where you could effectively do what you want? Then you could travel to other doctors like possibly the homeopath (here in Austin some of them do IV vitamin therapy), or find someone that will come to your home. I'm just wondering that if your Doctor is unwilling to work with you on radical treatments, can you switch to a different doctor while you are in the hospital?

[Shannon Vyff]

William can you get home where you could effectively do what you want? Then you could travel to other doctors like possibly the homeopath (here in Austin some of them do IV vitamin therapy), or find someone that will come to your home. I'm just wondering that if your Doctor is unwilling to work with you on radical treatments, can you switch to a different doctor while you are in the hospital?

[thefirstimmortal]

Bill, as suggested earlier, install Yahoo Messenger, or
any other chat engine with voice/video capability like
MSN, Skype.

Minni and the others too, then all of you can chat/talk
in real time. Coordinating your IV C treatment would
be easier.

MSN's cam is very slow though, and hard to connect too.

Skype's phone calls needs to be subscribed, at 2 cents a
minute, I think, but it's the clearest for voices.

I don't do the chat thing, oddly enough, I find the good old phone all the high tech I need in this field.

[tham]

Bill, you seem to turn down all our suggestions.

Obstacle after obstacle .....

[thefirstimmortal]

Oh boy, it's back to square one at finding someone
to do your IV C therapy then.

Honestly, I don't know, unless it's under the supervisions of a doctor, if
anyone will do it. I suggested local EMS people at one point, but
they would probably have similar issues.
Well, we have explored this one well up to this point. At least we have identified the problems with the concept of using VC.
At this point, I would just work at trying to do sublingual methods of
supplementing. I understand you don't have saliva enough to do that,
but maybe finding something that you can dissolve the supps in...
vit C is water soluble..and resveratrol can be dissolved in a few
different things....I don't know what else to suggest. I have never
encountered so many obstacles before.
I was not expecting to get nearly this many road blocks in my way. I wasn't expecting smooth sailing mind you, I just wasn't expecting to run into so many hurdles and road blocks. We will forge on ahead, just the same.
If there are options you are not considering...like other doctors...because of
money, please let me know...There are a few members who offered to contribute
to that effort quite a while ago and I will get in touch with them.

[thefirstimmortal]

Could you do me one personal favor and insist on checking CBC every
day as long as this chemo will go? Low red blood cells mean you
need EPO or a transfusion, very low white blood cells mean you need G-CSF
and/or GM-CSF and/or possibly reverse isolation against infection.

I'm asking you this because I fear that this may be your biggest mortality
risk from the chemo if not carefully observed. Citation below.

I can't make that promise mixture, they don't take CBC every day now like they used to last JANUARY. But I am well aware of those issues.

[kismet]

PetaKiaRose, I hope I didn't scare you away with my comment about the legalities. I'm just wondering if you couldn't (secretly?) adminster the IVs in a private setting as a private person, why should this affect your training? In theory it could lead to other types of liabilities, though. Also side effects of the IV vit c may be hardly managable in a private setting.
As Bill has put it "We need a nurse and a needle not a Doctor"... A nurse? Heck, even a junky would do, but again managing sides in a private setting may be the problem (I think tham mentioned some grave issues).
Tham, so is it safe to administer a sterile IV in a private setting? I think Missmini  implied that we couldn't administer the IV in the hospital anyway - Kurt probably wouldn't allow to? So even if PetaKiaRose was technically allowed to do it, there would still be some serious problems.

I am sure i ask for many others:

How can i contribute? Where exactly can i donate?

Thanks,

cronnie

@PetaKiaRose, cronnie &  other's who want to donate
I don't have the slightest clue which fund I donated to. I donated to "orights.cancer.cryonics.fund@gmail.com" via paypal (easier from Europe), sounds like the cryo fund, no? On the other hand I got the impression from Mind, this was the general fund. We need both money for cryonics and supplements so you can't be that wrong either way. Someone in the know should post how exactly people can donate to each of the funds.

Edited by kismet, 18 December 2008 - 07:48 PM.

[thefirstimmortal]

William: have you had a chance to play the Re-Mission game? It's available free and I've read about studies that showed playing these type of games actually outperforms placebos in defeating cancer.

No LSP, I'm not really a gamer. I would not enjoy the time spent on the game.

[thefirstimmortal]

I am sure i ask for many others:

How can i contribute? Where exactly can i donate?

Thanks,

cronnie

That depends on what effort you are trying to contribute to.

If for vitamins and in general, you should contact Anthony at RevGenetics.

For the Cryonics efforts, you want the Society of Venturism.

[thefirstimmortal]

Sean McCloy of Maine Wellness replied me, saying that
he is not taking new patients at the moment.

He mentioned Ray Psonak in Gray, whom I noted you
had tried calling earlier in August. He said he had heard
negative comments from patients about his office's
cleanliness though.

Yes, I tried playing ball with Psonak, I forget what the deal breaker was in that one.

[Mind]

The Imminst administered Paypal account for William is orights.cryonics.cancer.fund@gmail.com

You can donate to this primarily for William's supplement needs, however you can specify if you want it to go toward a cryonic suspension. William uses this money as needed for different supplements and treatment options.

[thefirstimmortal]

Has anyone suggested Lypo-Spheric Vitamin C? (Oral Liposome Vitamin C)
http://www.livonlabs.com/
or maybe
http://www.lipoflow....g...x&cPath=1_4
or homemade? (I've not gotten around to getting my sonicator yet)

First I've heard of these products

[thefirstimmortal]

FWIW, the primary issue in my case is that of certification. There are hundreds if not thousands of EMS personnel in Maine who are licensed (Maine licenses EMS personnel, whereas Indiana certifies) to perform IV access. The minimum level of training to access IVs there is an EMT-Intermediate, although they are technically only only qualified to administer fluid therapy. A paramedic (EMT-P) is inherently qualified to administer drugs, though only through the protocols and medical direction of a physician. You could put up a wanted ad for a paramedic to make some money on the side (most medics have to work at least two jobs) taking care of IV access; they're also the ideal personnel to have if you need to perform resuscitation. If you can get a physician to document authorizing the paramedic to administer the medications, and furbish the paramedic with sufficient paperwork for them to feel legally safe, then you can hire a local paramedic to moonlight for you.

This was a scenario I suggested to Bill last week and sent him a list of EMS personnel in the town of Acton, where he lives. I don't know if
he had a chance to contact any of them yet.

That list is logged in my computer as work product. As soon as I get back I will begin to see what I can do with it.

[missminni]

FWIW, the primary issue in my case is that of certification. There are hundreds if not thousands of EMS personnel in Maine who are licensed (Maine licenses EMS personnel, whereas Indiana certifies) to perform IV access. The minimum level of training to access IVs there is an EMT-Intermediate, although they are technically only only qualified to administer fluid therapy. A paramedic (EMT-P) is inherently qualified to administer drugs, though only through the protocols and medical direction of a physician. You could put up a wanted ad for a paramedic to make some money on the side (most medics have to work at least two jobs) taking care of IV access; they're also the ideal personnel to have if you need to perform resuscitation. If you can get a physician to document authorizing the paramedic to administer the medications, and furbish the paramedic with sufficient paperwork for them to feel legally safe, then you can hire a local paramedic to moonlight for you.

This was a scenario I suggested to Bill last week and sent him a list of EMS personnel in the town of Acton, where he lives. I don't know if
he had a chance to contact any of them yet.

That list is logged in my computer as work product. As soon as I get back I will begin to see what I can do with it.

Here's the list and the link to the website. Maybe you could start contacting some of them from the hospital.
http://www.actonems.org/about.shtml
EMS Crew Officers (2008)
President Linda Whitman
Vice President Leonard Turcotte
Secretary Martha Turmelle
Treasurer Deb Casey
Member-at-large Jim Crowley
Member-at-large Roger Roy
Member-at-large Jane Holtby

Chief Denise DeAngelis
Assist Chief John Moulton
Health Officer Don Ouellette
QA/QI Officer Pat Adams
Training Officer Kevin Romano
Supply Denise DeAngelis
Personnel Sharon Anderson

[Zenob]

Given this situation and your condition, I would think
that your most appropriate option is homeopathy.

Given the time sensitive nature of Bill's condition I don't think it would be wise for him to waste any of it on pseudoscience like homeopathy.

[Dmitri]

I called Bill at the phone Minni gave just now.
It's his direct line in his ward room,

He sounded in pretty bad shape, was coughing on and
off as we talked. (I was in bad shape too, one of my
hemorrhoids prolapsed today, having recurred only a
few years after excruciatingly painful and difficult surgery
in December 2004 !)


Here's the situation :

1. Minni, Bill confirmed that Jeffrey Young has no
authority over this whole issue - Kurt Ebrahim is the
one who has the last say.

2. Kurt Ebrahim won't even listen to him about being put
on a trial of amrubicin. He's the one who will decide his
chemo protocol. He can't ask for a transfer to Matthew
Dugan (director of the amrubicin study) in the Maine Cancer
Center in Scarborough too. Kurt has a residency there as well,
and Dugan knows Bill is Kurt's patient. Ethical red tape.

3. Kurt won't let him try the vitamin C infusion there. I guess
that is understandable if one takes Kurt's point of view. What if
complications arise, whether from the vitamin C treatment or
interactions with the chemo, or it just nullifies his chemo's
efficacy ? Or even if the vitamin C doesn't cause any problems,
but the chemo does, people (including the patient) may still say
that the vitamin C was the culprit. A question of liability. He doesn't
want any problems and doesn't want to be held responsible for any.

3, He said doctors there don't make house calls. So there is
no question of a doctor from Maine Wellness travelling to his
house, or the hospital for that matter, for the IV C.

4. Even after he goes home, Bill is in no position to travel to
Maine Wellness. His pain is excruciating at the slightest movement
- the cancer is eating his bones. The IV C will have to be done
at home, with someone to help him.

Good lord that sounds terrible, so even if he survives there's a risk he'll be disabled?

As for the doctor's concern over complications, wouldn't signing a consent form resolve his fear? There are plenty of hospitals/doctors who use experimental treatments when conventional therapies fail; those doctors explain the risks and make patients sign a form if they agree. His doctor is likely one of those traditionalists who stick to conventional methods no matter what.

[missminni]

Bill,
I want to add to that list of EMS organizations in Southern Maine so that you can start to contact them while in hospital.
Time is of the essence. If you can arrange for help the day you get out, you got a better chance.
Here's a list of services that might be able to help or better yet, you may be able to glean names of EMS workers and contact
them personally to moonlight:

1, http://www.actonems.org/about.shtml This is the one I already gave you.

2. http://www.medicalre...tail.asp?id=396

3. http://www.smems.org/about.htm This one looks good...SouthernMaine EMS...lots of contacts...

Check their main page also, there seems to be a number of links to relevant subjects.

3. http://www.kvems.org/links.htm This has many links to EMS services too.

4. http://www.vaniotis.com/jacky/ This is the personal home page of an EMS professional. You can email him and tell him what you need.

There are many more, but I thought this would give you a start without being overwhelming. I think contacting #4 might give you some good
leads.
You can email him.

[missminni]

Good lord that sounds terrible, so even if he survives there's a risk he'll be disabled?

As for the doctor's concern over complications, wouldn't signing a consent form resolve his fear? There are plenty of hospitals/doctors who use experimental treatments when conventional therapies fail; those doctors explain the risks and make patients sign a form if they agree. His doctor is likely one of those traditionalists who stick to conventional methods no matter what.

Hi Dmitiri,
If he survives he won't be diabled, he'll be ALIVE!
As for his doctor, I think it has a lot more to do with his ego than anything else. He seems to
have a god complex.

[Dmitri]

Good lord that sounds terrible, so even if he survives there's a risk he'll be disabled?

As for the doctor's concern over complications, wouldn't signing a consent form resolve his fear? There are plenty of hospitals/doctors who use experimental treatments when conventional therapies fail; those doctors explain the risks and make patients sign a form if they agree. His doctor is likely one of those traditionalists who stick to conventional methods no matter what.

Hi Dmitiri,
If he survives he won't be diabled, he'll be ALIVE!
As for his doctor, I think it has a lot more to do with his ego than anything else. He seems to
have a god complex.

I said disabled because some member here mentioned the tumors were eating bill's bones. As for the doctor, was chemo and radiation the only treatments he approved of? Does the doctor even reject interferon therapy? I read that interferon is a man-made protein that stimulates the immune system to attack infected, damaged, and cancerous cells as well as tumors. I don’t recall bill ever mentioning this as a treatment.

[thefirstimmortal]

Looking for someone to start you on the vitamin C
seems like a dead end. As Minni said, endless obstacles.

Given this situation and your condition, I would think
that your most appropriate option is homeopathy.

In fact, homeopathy treatment suits you perfectly.
Homeopathic medicine are usually tiny globules which
you place on or under your tongue and don't need
to be swallowed.

Just going out to buy some homeopathic medicine is
not a good idea. A disease as complex as cancer must
be treated constitutionally. A full case history must be
taken by an experienced homeopathic doctor and a
"remedy picture" arrived at, to suit your overall disposition
and condition before the right remedy is prescribed.

As such, constitutional homeopathic treatment is a highly
individualized affair. No two small cell lung cancer patients,
even with the same staging and symptoms, will be prescribed
the same remedy.

This looks like the nearest homeopath to you, about 11 miles
away. Note that she is qualified as an Advanced Registered
Nurse Practitioner.

Yvonne Turner, ARNP
Integrated Medical Health Care
10 Railroad Avenue
Springvale, ME 04083
(207) 324-8088
ytherb@psouth.net

http://www.homeopath...ne.org/find.php

Yvonne Turner, I know her personally. Her son is one of my friends, since grade school. I visited her this past summer, her interest are in the herb remedies only.

[thefirstimmortal]

The Imminst administered Paypal account for William is orights.cryonics.cancer.fund@gmail.com

You can donate to this primarily for William's supplement needs, however you can specify if you want it to go toward a cryonic suspension. William uses this money as needed for different supplements and treatment options.

I thought the cryonics account was passed up on Caliban's objections (with my support in agreeing that it was a dulicate effort) and just the pay-pal account for vitamins was voted in?

[missminni]

Good lord that sounds terrible, so even if he survives there's a risk he'll be disabled?

As for the doctor's concern over complications, wouldn't signing a consent form resolve his fear? There are plenty of hospitals/doctors who use experimental treatments when conventional therapies fail; those doctors explain the risks and make patients sign a form if they agree. His doctor is likely one of those traditionalists who stick to conventional methods no matter what.

Hi Dmitiri,
If he survives he won't be diabled, he'll be ALIVE!
As for his doctor, I think it has a lot more to do with his ego than anything else. He seems to
have a god complex.

I said disabled because some member here mentioned the tumors were eating bill's bones. As for the doctor, was chemo and radiation the only treatments he approved of? Does the doctor even reject interferon therapy? I read that interferon is a man-made protein that stimulates the immune system to attack infected, damaged, and cancerous cells as well as tumors. I don’t recall bill ever mentioning this as a treatment.

It appears that the doctor believes in chemo and only chemo. That's the program. He owns his own chemotherapy center and the bottom
line is more chemo means more money. It's really that simple. Not a good guy and a total egomaniac. He won't even hear of any other
protocols. I know it sounds unbelievable, but it happens more often than you think.
Bill's between a rock and a hard place. He needs to have a primary doctor so that he can get into the hospital when he has to, and
no other doctor will take him as a patient once his primary doctor talks to them. He's a powerful man in that medical community and wields that power effectively. Actually, I think what he is doing is criminal (as in murder) and he should be sued for it, but right now,
all that matters is trying to get Bill an outside nurse or paramed to help him at home with the IV's. He can't fight the doctor head on...How could he?
He doesn't have family (or the money) to help him fight and he's too sick to do it himself. He's stuck with him.