149 replies to this topic

[frederickson]

as is to be expected, great list...

my only problem would be the metformin. i assume you have it on for the blood sugar benefits, in which case i would think cinnamon and/or ground cloves would be better options. not only will these substances keep blood sugar from any carb meal in check, but some studies have found them to have the highest antioxidant capacity of most common foods/spices.

i also love nutiva brand coconut oil, about the best you can buy imo!

[HaloTeK]

Duke, here is one of the studies I was talking about:

http://www.futurepun...ves/005784.html <----discussed here

I concur that they didn't put the diet up against someone who is fully using ketones well. But, ancedotal evidance of brain fogginess on low carbs diet is out there. Personally, I've tried lower carbs diets for months at a time where I never truely felt that really strong energy that some low-carb people say they feel. (And i don't do lots of aerobic work, more of a evolutionary fitness guy (art de vany)). Once I'm on a Kitava type paleo diet, which I am now, I feel super charged!

[brokenportal]

Nice, I printed this list off and Im going to bring it to walgreens and gnc when the christmas season gives me my wallet back. What brands should be avoided, and which are good? Should I even go to walgreens? My ex girlfriend worked at gnc and swore up and down that almost everything you find in stores and walgreens is garbage but Im not sure if she was right.

[FunkOdyssey]

If you leave the house to purchase your supplements, yes, they are certain to be either garbage or ridiculously overpriced. I recommend sites like iherb.com and vitacost.com for your supplement needs.

[chrisp2]

o Vitamin K2 -- a very recent superstar, especially as a regulator of calcium, and keeping it from arterial accumulation (all plaque is approx 20-25% calcium). In fact, animal studies show complete coronary calcium reversal with K2. Most people are greatly deficient. 5mg a day recommended.

Great list Duke...

Is such a high dosage needed of K2?

Any particular brand recommended?

I was going to go with LEF's new super booster which has MK4 and MK7, but only 2.1mg total K, of which 1mg is K1...

Perhaps that is not good enough...

[DukeNukem]

Where do you get your coconut oil from?

I order mine online: Awesome price!

iHerb sells it for $16.50 but offers shipping via UPS ground for $4. Amazon's price of $15.65 is cheaper, but the shipping is listed at $11.50. The 54 ounce tub is a better value at $23.99 with the same $4 shipping, for more of that coconut goodness.

StephenB

Stephen, that Amazon link I provided is for a 54 ounce tub! Unbeatable deal, especially if you're a Prime member like me, meaning free shipping.

[DukeNukem]

Duke, here is one of the studies I was talking about:

http://www.futurepun...ves/005784.html <----discussed here

I concur that they didn't put the diet up against someone who is fully using ketones well. But, ancedotal evidance of brain fogginess on low carbs diet is out there. Personally, I've tried lower carbs diets for months at a time where I never truely felt that really strong energy that some low-carb people say they feel. (And i don't do lots of aerobic work, more of a evolutionary fitness guy (art de vany)). Once I'm on a Kitava type paleo diet, which I am now, I feel super charged!

Just a three-week study, 19 people. There's no doubt that for carb-aholics (a.k.a, most Americas) there's a low-carb withdrawal/adjustment period that can last several weeks. People should start slow and make it a 2-3 month process, IMO. Also, I'd never recommend going no-carb (basically the Atkin's induction phase), as I always recommend variety-packed leafy salads (with EV olive oil to help nutrient absorbtion--no other salad dressing, except maybe pure vinegar of any variety), and mixed berries in moderation. Tonight for dinner I had a big spinach and baked/pulled-chicken salad, with lots of colorful topings like bell peppers, and also a three-egg (whole egg) omelette (cooked in real butter--special request) with swiss cheese and sausage, topped with Cholula sauce. Meanwhile, in the restaurant, two same-age-as-me diabetics (one with an O2 tube to her nose) were feasting on their ADA-approved ultra-low-fat, high-carb meals -- basically digging their own graves...I give them both less than 10 years of miserable life left. The food pyramid could be vastly improved just by flipping it upside down -- that's how totally screwed up our government-sponsored nutrition advice is.

[DukeNukem]

o Vitamin K2 -- a very recent superstar, especially as a regulator of calcium, and keeping it from arterial accumulation (all plaque is approx 20-25% calcium). In fact, animal studies show complete coronary calcium reversal with K2. Most people are greatly deficient. 5mg a day recommended.

Great list Duke...

Is such a high dosage needed of K2?

Any particular brand recommended?

I was going to go with LEF's new super booster which has MK4 and MK7, but only 2.1mg total K, of which 1mg is K1...

Perhaps that is not good enough...

The LEF amounts might be okay for someone <25 who's already in pretty good health, but for someone older and/or is less-than-perfect health (i.e. most Americans) I'd recommend the higher dosage. Note that there doesn't appear to be toxicity issues even in people who've taken 45mg for an extended periods. I have been taking 16mg-ish a day for over a year. IMO, the MK-4 version is the priority choice, as this version has the most, AFAIK, studies behind it. It's also the animal-based version that paleolithic humans likely adapted to. However, I also take a little of the MK-7 version and the K1 version just to cover all the bases. Here are the two K2 supps I take, one each daily.

http://www.vitacost....cg-180-Softgels
And I buy the other from Pete's relentlessly horrible Relentless Improvement site, called "Menatetrenone Vitamin K2" (The site is so painful in so many ways, a true case study in epic failure of site design.) Maybe this crazy long link woks:
http://supplements.r...et=products.asp

K2 along with D3 are the two best supplements for reversing plaque, IMO. Pomegranate extract would be #3. I don't see any reason to give plaque even a fighting chance, so that's why I recommend a higher dose.

Edited by DukeNukem, 24 December 2008 - 02:58 AM.

[Dmitri]

Duke, here is one of the studies I was talking about:

http://www.futurepun...ves/005784.html <----discussed here

I concur that they didn't put the diet up against someone who is fully using ketones well. But, ancedotal evidance of brain fogginess on low carbs diet is out there. Personally, I've tried lower carbs diets for months at a time where I never truely felt that really strong energy that some low-carb people say they feel. (And i don't do lots of aerobic work, more of a evolutionary fitness guy (art de vany)). Once I'm on a Kitava type paleo diet, which I am now, I feel super charged!

Just a three-week study, 19 people. There's no doubt that for carb-aholics (a.k.a, most Americas) there's a low-carb withdrawal/adjustment period that can last several weeks. People should start slow and make it a 2-3 month process, IMO. Also, I'd never recommend going no-carb (basically the Atkin's induction phase), as I always recommend variety-packed leafy salads (with EV olive oil to help nutrient absorbtion--no other salad dressing, except maybe pure vinegar of any variety), and mixed berries in moderation. Tonight for dinner I had a big spinach and baked/pulled-chicken salad, with lots of colorful topings like bell peppers, and also a three-egg (whole egg) omelette (cooked in real butter--special request) with swiss cheese and sausage, topped with Cholula sauce. Meanwhile, in the restaurant, two same-age-as-me diabetics (one with an O2 tube to her nose) were feasting on their ADA-approved ultra-low-fat, high-carb meals -- basically digging their own graves...I give them both less than 10 years of miserable life left. The food pyramid could be vastly improved just by flipping it upside down -- that's how totally screwed up our government-sponsored nutrition advice is.

That's quite the exaggeration, the life expectancy in the U.S. is about 79 years even though the majority is on the SAD diet.

[rwac]

Duke, Do you limit your consumption of eggs ?
Do you think there's a maximum ?

[DukeNukem]

Duke, Do you limit your consumption of eggs ?
Do you think there's a maximum ?

I love omelettes and eat at least 1-2 a week. I don't see any reason to limit egg consumption (except, you want a variety of animal proteins each week). Cholesterol content is a red herring and can be ignored. Never get egg whites--the nutrients (and flavor!) are all in the yolk.

[NDM]

Duke, Do you limit your consumption of eggs ?
Do you think there's a maximum ?

I love omelettes and eat at least 1-2 a week. I don't see any reason to limit egg consumption (except, you want a variety of animal proteins each week). Cholesterol content is a red herring and can be ignored. Never get egg whites--the nutrients (and flavor!) are all in the yolk.

For about four months I ate 10-14 eggs/week...(my main source of choline) until I came across a large epidemiological study with male physicians as subjects...egg consumption was positively correlated with premature death. Also, in an editorial prefacing the study, the editor suggested that the whites are OK; the problem is with the yolks. (now I'm down to 5-7 eggs/week)

http://www.nhs.uk/ne...earlydeath.aspx

[chrisp2]

The LEF amounts might be okay for someone <25 who's already in pretty good health, but for someone older and/or is less-than-perfect health (i.e. most Americans) I'd recommend the higher dosage. Note that there doesn't appear to be toxicity issues even in people who've taken 45mg for an extended periods. I have been taking 16mg-ish a day for over a year. IMO, the MK-4 version is the priority choice, as this version has the most, AFAIK, studies behind it. It's also the animal-based version that paleolithic humans likely adapted to. However, I also take a little of the MK-7 version and the K1 version just to cover all the bases. Here are the two K2 supps I take, one each daily.

[snip]

K2 along with D3 are the two best supplements for reversing plaque, IMO. Pomegranate extract would be #3. I don't see any reason to give plaque even a fighting chance, so that's why I recommend a higher dose.

Thanks.

I just returned some of the old formula of LEF"s super booster specifically because of the 9mg of K1 in it. I didn't do a ton of research - I just knew K2 was "where it's at", and I was a bit worried about stroke risk with clotting. (Again - didn't research it really... I did just check that K2 apparently does not increase risk of stroke - but I'll research it more if I up my dose)

The RI product has 15 mg of MK4... With a half life of K2 at 3 days... I suppose I could easily just dose myself every third day.

I agree with you on Pomegranate extract... I'm loaded up on it. (I'm using the LEF product there too actually - with Cocoa... twice a day)

Oh one other think - you're only doing 100mg of Pycnogenol a day? I'm currently doing 3 100's a day (NSI - the ONLY product I use from NSI as I know where the raw ingredient comes from)...

[woly]

Hey duke! I like how you post these lists every now and again, lets me review my supplement regimen. A few questions though

o Vitamin C -- 2000mg daily, in divided dosages (vit C has a half-life under an hour, so its benefits are not long lasting, and therefore need to be replenished several times daily).

Now im aware that vitamin c is a strong antioxidant with a short half life but ive never been able to find any studies that back up the need for it to be taken at such high doses. Most studies that have shown any benefit have been dosed at around 250-500mg. Why do you take such high doses?

o EPA/DHA (fish oil) -- a long chain omega-3 polyunsaturated oil that has anti-inflammatory benefits. At most I recommend two grams daily. Polyunsaturated oils have a significant half-life (two years) and therefore do not require much daily replenishment. And since these oils are also easily oxidized (a pro-aging concern), they should be limited to as-needed-and-no-more supplementation.

Is this 2 grams of EPA and 2 grams of DHA?

o Coconut oil -- another food supplement, primarily medium length saturated fat that’s processed not in the digestive tract but in the liver. Practically all animals fed coconut oil lose bodyfat, and experience reduced systemic inflammation. Its unique energy producing pathway also poses less oxidative stress on the mitochondria. I eat about 50 grams daily, often a lot more. (Must only get the extra virgin type.) This is my exclusive cooking oil, too.

I am a bit new to the coconut oil research but what do you think of the possible cholesterol issues? Also, from reading this review the weight loss data in humans doesnt seem too great or atleast fairly mixed. What are you thoughts?

Edited by woly, 24 December 2008 - 05:41 AM.

[rwac]

Where do you get your coconut oil from?

I order mine online: Awesome price!

iHerb sells it for $16.50 but offers shipping via UPS ground for $4. Amazon's price of $15.65 is cheaper, but the shipping is listed at $11.50. The 54 ounce tub is a better value at $23.99 with the same $4 shipping, for more of that coconut goodness.

StephenB

Stephen, that Amazon link I provided is for a 54 ounce tub! Unbeatable deal, especially if you're a Prime member like me, meaning free shipping.

Duke, FYI: "This item is not eligible for Amazon Prime when purchased from RawReform."

[ajnast4r]

Nice, I printed this list off and Im going to bring it to walgreens and gnc when the christmas season gives me my wallet back. What brands should be avoided, and which are good? Should I even go to walgreens? My ex girlfriend worked at gnc and swore up and down that almost everything you find in stores and walgreens is garbage but Im not sure if she was right.

never, ever, ever evevevevevrvevvrvervre buy supplements from walgreens or gnc. everevevrvevrverer

stick with sites like iherb and vitacost... if youre unsure about brands PM me a list of the supplements you want, and i will give you a handful of good brands for each and a few sites to get them cheap.

[DukeNukem]

Duke, FYI: "This item is not eligible for Amazon Prime when purchased from RawReform."

I don't think I got that message. Maybe I missed it and ended up paying more shipping.

Now im aware that vitamin c is a strong antioxidant with a short half life but ive never been able to find any studies that back up the need for it to be taken at such high doses. Most studies that have shown any benefit have been dosed at around 250-500mg. Why do you take such high doses?

There's a UCLA study, ~11,000 men, showing at 800mg daily an ~50% reduction in cardiovascular events. Plus, I put a little faith in Pauling, who lived until 93 taking a very high dose (~10 grams daily).

Is this 2 grams of EPA and 2 grams of DHA?

Confusing, I know. What I mean is two one-gram gelcaps, such as the LEF Super EPA/DHA product. This means getting less than two grams total of actual EPA/DHA.

[woly]

Also I saw that you take two doses of 100mg of niacin. The studies that have shown niacin to help boost HDL had dosages much higher than that. Do you have any studies that might show such a low dose would be helpfull?

[DukeNukem]

Also I saw that you take two doses of 100mg of niacin. The studies that have shown niacin to help boost HDL had dosages much higher than that. Do you have any studies that might show such a low dose would be helpfull?

Yes, more is better. But, I can't handle the stronger flush! I tried a 250 Slo-Niacin dose not long ago, and it felt like I dunked my head in lava.

My HDLs are already sky high, 80+. I'm hoping a little niacin will push me into the 90's. (Actually, the 900's, but they drop the least significant digit -- a bit of trivia a lot of people don't know.)

[shuffleup]

Also I saw that you take two doses of 100mg of niacin. The studies that have shown niacin to help boost HDL had dosages much higher than that. Do you have any studies that might show such a low dose would be helpfull?

Yes, more is better. But, I can't handle the stronger flush! I tried a 250 Slo-Niacin dose not long ago, and it felt like I dunked my head in lava.

My HDLs are already sky high, 80+. I'm hoping a little niacin will push me into the 90's. (Actually, the 900's, but they drop the least significant digit -- a bit of trivia a lot of people don't know.)

Wonder why the flush is so bad for you? I got some nasty reactions when I took niacin shortly after drinking some red wine, and then again shortly after taking some Folic Acid, but I've taken 500mg slo-niacin with 2 cups of water after dinner (with no wine!) and no flush whatsoever. I know people who take 2 grams without problems but I have no reason to go that high either.

[stephen_b]

Stephen, that Amazon link I provided is for a 54 ounce tub! Unbeatable deal, especially if you're a Prime member like me, meaning free shipping.

I stand corrected.

I'm surprised that some of my top 5 supplements didn't make your top ten: ubiquinol and ALA/ALCAR (I'll cheat and lump those last two together).

Edited by stephen_b, 24 December 2008 - 02:58 PM.

[DukeNukem]

Stephen, that Amazon link I provided is for a 54 ounce tub! Unbeatable deal, especially if you're a Prime member like me, meaning free shipping.

I stand corrected.

I'm surprised that some of my top 5 supplements didn't make your top ten: ubiquinol and ALA/ALCAR (I'll cheat and lump those last two together).

Those would be in my next group. But, for most people, I see this next group as less essential. Doesn't mean they aren't great supps.

[balance]

Hi Duke,

Thanks for the top 10. I'm always interested to know what you are taking, even though I'd love to see the whole list, not just a top 10.

That said, about the eggs; I've read numerous reports on how eggs and fish are the main contributors of dioxins in the diet... I don't think that's particularly healthy. The dioxins and potentially other toxins are my main/only reason to avoiding eggs. What is your opinion on this matter?

Btw, I saw posts where you said that you were taking 10 grams of vitamin C (a mix of all forms). You recommend 2 grams. Is this to be on the safe side in terms of copper deficiency or because you have reduced your 10 grams to 2 grams?

AOR and others seem to state that if you stick with MK4 that you have to use 45mg doses at a minimum, because of the low absorption, and the low half life. Some people posting in this topic are confused. It is MK-7 with the long half life, and MK-4 with the short half life. And MK-7 is the one that requires LOW doses, between 45-200mCg, and MK-4 between 45-90MG. From what I've seen most of those trials you are talking about (done in Japan) used doses between 45 and 90 MG of MK-4. I think right now the evidence for recommending one over the other (MK-4 over MK-7 or vice versa) is too limited to make a conclusion. So it can be said that it's safe to stick with a "vit K complex" to get them both/all in there just to be safe. So the LEF super K complex offers 1mg of K1, 1MG of MK4 (useless) and 100mcg of MK-7 (great). I would combine that product with relentless improvement MK-4 at 45MG. I know it's expensive, but at least it's scientific, and on top of that, at least in Duke's case, money shouldn't be an issue. If I at 22 can afford this, I know most others can, just a question of making priorities.

[DukeNukem]

Hi Duke,

Thanks for the top 10. I'm always interested to know what you are taking, even though I'd love to see the whole list, not just a top 10.

That said, about the eggs; I've read numerous reports on how eggs and fish are the main contributors of dioxins in the diet... I don't think that's particularly healthy. The dioxins and potentially other toxins are my main/only reason to avoiding eggs. What is your opinion on this matter?

Btw, I saw posts where you said that you were taking 10 grams of vitamin C (a mix of all forms). You recommend 2 grams. Is this to be on the safe side in terms of copper deficiency or because you have reduced your 10 grams to 2 grams?

AOR and others seem to state that if you stick with MK4 that you have to use 45mg doses at a minimum, because of the low absorption, and the low half life. Some people posting in this topic are confused. It is MK-7 with the long half life, and MK-4 with the short half life. And MK-7 is the one that requires LOW doses, between 45-200mCg, and MK-4 between 45-90MG. From what I've seen most of those trials you are talking about (done in Japan) used doses between 45 and 90 MG of MK-4. I think right now the evidence for recommending one over the other (MK-4 over MK-7 or vice versa) is too limited to make a conclusion. So it can be said that it's safe to stick with a "vit K complex" to get them both/all in there just to be safe. So the LEF super K complex offers 1mg of K1, 1MG of MK4 (useless) and 100mcg of MK-7 (great). I would combine that product with relentless improvement MK-4 at 45MG. I know it's expensive, but at least it's scientific, and on top of that, at least in Duke's case, money shouldn't be an issue. If I at 22 can afford this, I know most others can, just a question of making priorities.

In message 38 I list the two K2 specific supps I take, one has MK-7.

As for the eggs, we had to have evolved with eggs as a common component to our diet, so I don't think they can be that bad for us.

And for vit C, I'm down to 2 grams daily. It's too difficult to take 10 grams daily, plus on a no grain, low carb diet, I think vit C is much less crucial.

[balance]

Duke, I know you take everything, someone said you should take cinnamon instead of metformin, but I know you take both . So I know you got the K complex too, but I said it to clarify for all the readers of this topic.

Ok so the vitamin C is a convenience issue. I agree though, that on a very low carb diet less vitamin C is probably needed, but this remains to be proven.. Did you ever try bowel tolerance, and if so, what was your bowel tolerance. If the low/no carb less vitamin C story is true, one might expect lower bowel tolerance. Maybe you should give it a try on your current diet.


Sure we have evolved to eat eggs, but we haven't evolved to consume dioxins and the various other toxic chemicals...

Here is a very tiny sample, but you can find tons of info on the pcbs/ddt/dioxin topic.

http://www.sciencedi...3ebdb1f4a1f9323

http://cat.inist.fr/...cpsidt=17713437

http://www.scienceda...80723134438.htm

http://www.scienceda...80523163034.htm

http://www.scienceda...80223112253.htm

http://www.scienceda...80515072828.htm

http://www.scienceda...80715103959.htm

http://www.scienceda...80714112956.htm

http://www.scienceda...80104102807.htm

http://www.scienceda...81201101149.htm

http://www.scienceda...81216161056.htm

http://www.scienceda...80515072810.htm

[Shepard]

Ok so the vitamin C is a convenience issue. I agree though, that on a very low carb diet less vitamin C is probably needed, but this remains to be proven.. Did you ever try bowel tolerance, and if so, what was your bowel tolerance. If the low/no carb less vitamin C story is true, one might expect lower bowel tolerance. Maybe you should give it a try on your current diet.

I'm skeptical of this viewpoint "bowel tolerance is your optimal level of Vitamin C" that some of the Pauling disciples have. I've never hit bowel tolerance even with 30+ grams of Vitamin C daily during some particularly nasty sinus infections.

[balance]

http://www.acu-cell.com/vitc.html

Maybe that article will explain why. Did you use sodium ascorbate or such? That's a from that is very good at not annoying the bowels.

That said, I've had times where I've even hit bowel tolerance at a mere 500mg of vitamin C per day... calcium ascorbate...

I brought it up because there doesn't seem to be an easy way to determine optimal vitamin C requirements, and bowel tolerance is an approach that can be used. I recommend to both Duke and Shepard that they read Ascorbate: The science of vitamin C by Dr. Steve Hickey & Hilary Roberts. It can be purchased for 6 dollars as a .pdf from their site.. Was well worth the read!

[Shepard]

I actually read Ascorbate from a recommendation from another poster a couple of years ago. It was a solid book, and I still like fairly high dosed Vitamin C for most people (until some in vivo evidence is brought forth on the crosslinking issue raised recently). I've just never experienced the bowel issues. I use pure ascorbic acid for the most part in my supplementation.

Edited by shepard, 24 December 2008 - 06:39 PM.

[balance]

Did you try taking it on an empty stomach? There's some evidence to suggest that with a (high) carb meal vitamin C has to compete with glucose, and loses the battle.

I take my vitamin C on an empty stomach, there's also a theory that taking it with some no-carb protein can enhance vitamin C as it will slow absorption and bind with the proteins.

Good to hear you've read Ascorbate. The only missing element in my opinion in the book is vitamin C's interaction with the various other minerals/vitamins.. most notably copper... I would have wanted to read their opinion on the vitamin C induced copper deficiency cases..

Edited by piet3r, 24 December 2008 - 06:52 PM.

[Shepard]

Your link above did bring up a couple of things with regard to other interactions that I hadn't heard, and are worth further exploration. I've taken Vitamin C on an empty stomach, with food, in small doses, in larger (~5g) doses; none of it seems to phase me. I don't know, I'm weird.