579 replies to this topic

[Eva Victoria]

I have received some notifications about new PMs however My Assistant does not allow me to view any of them. The reason for this I do not know.
(Hopefully one of the moderators will come back to me here with an answer.)

So if any of you have any questions about sunscreens, skin care please don't hesitate to post them here and I'll try to answer them as soon as I have the possibility.

[VictorBjoerk]

Hi Eva!

The PM doesn't work because you are a registered user and not a member. There were so much spam and problematic people so now only members can use the PM function. I recommend that you register as a member if you would like to, It's cheap and you also contribute to the cause of extending life/prolonging youth.

I came up with some questions for you, so I will keep you busy for a while


1. The daily UV Index report http://www.smhi.se/c...jsp?d=7850&l=sv shows how much UV there is during a day, does this report account for all types of rays including UVA? If the report says there is no significant UV at any given time, can you trust that there is no UVA either?
For example in Scandinavia evenings are very long, is it necessary to protect your skin from the sun even after 6 PM when the sun is still shining?

2. On labels about UVA protections it says "protection in compliance with european recommendations" how many percent of UVA rays does that mean it will block then?

3. Some people in the medical community says that there is no correlation between malignt melanoma and UV exposure which has been shown because lack of UV-signature mutations in nearly all melanoma. However everyone agrees that UV rays causes the less deadly forms of skin cancer. What is your opinion?

4. Do you always recommend retinoids as a part of a preventive skin care regimen?

5. Any opinions about topical Vitamin B derivates, do they have similar effects as retinoids? Are there any other products with rejuvenating effects comparable to retinoids?

6. Since you claim to have been using sunscreens all your life and retinoids for a decade, have you noticed any visible age-related changes in your appearance compared to when you were for example 20, or have your skin stayed the same?

It would be interesting to hear exactly what "unavoidable" effects intrinsic aging has on apperance in the absence of UV damage and daily use of retinoids!

Edited by VictorBjoerk, 09 May 2009 - 10:13 PM.

[Skötkonung]

I know you frequently advocate mineral based sunscreens, but how do you feel about Helioplex based sunscreens? I am currently using a spf 70 version from Neutrogena.

[Ben]

Ditto to everything Victor asked. Thanks ! :D

Edited by Ben - Aus, 07 May 2009 - 09:42 AM.

[katzenjammer]

Eva,

I remember you were working on a sunscreen product - just wondering if it's available yet? If not, what sunscreen do you currently recommend for the face? Thanks! ~katz

[TheFountain]

Is 2% avobenzene adequate for UVA protection if the sunscreen is applied every 3 hours?

[sdxl]

2. On labels about UVA protections it says "protection in compliance with european recommendations" how many percent of UVA rays does that mean it will block then?

See here what the EU recommendations are all about.

[immortali457]

Is 2% avobenzene adequate for UVA protection if the sunscreen is applied every 3 hours?

Eva will say No

[treonsverdery]

Hi Eva
It is possible you are a cosmeceutical chemist

Aphrodite asked if she could eat ATP to minimize physiological glucose which she associated with glycation http://www.imminst.o...mp;#entry321872

I read that people make 90 pounds of ATP every 24 h
Pyruvate also is a chemical that energizes the citric acid cycle at masses possibly comparable to glucose

anyway even if eating atp to minimize glycation is a giant 43 Kg plateful I thought that 200 milligrams of ATP spread over a square meter of skin might give the dermal tissue say 300 cytes deep 20 pt more ATP energy thus creating a repair friendly cosmetic ingedient

do you think ATP plus a transport chemical like liposomes or sodium lauryl sulfate like I see on cosmetics labels creates an authentic way to bring a layer of tissue meaningful energy that precludes glycation, plus keeps the tissue energized to maintain hydration plus repair

If it does then you could put ATP or pyruvate with sunsceen to make an strongly repair energized sunscreen

Edited by treonsverdery, 12 May 2009 - 02:20 AM.

[TheFountain]

Is 2% avobenzene adequate for UVA protection if the sunscreen is applied every 3 hours?

Eva will say No

yea well, it'll have to do till I get some european sunscreen next week. I mean it's better than nada right?

[sdxl]

Is 2% avobenzene adequate for UVA protection if the sunscreen is applied every 3 hours?

Eva will say No

yea well, it'll have to do till I get some european sunscreen next week. I mean it's better than nada right?

It's avobenzone and it depends on the other ingredients in that sunscreen and how you define adequate. Any sunscreen is better than none.

[TheFountain]

Is 2% avobenzene adequate for UVA protection if the sunscreen is applied every 3 hours?

Eva will say No

yea well, it'll have to do till I get some european sunscreen next week. I mean it's better than nada right?

It's avobenzone and it depends on the other ingredients in that sunscreen and how you define adequate. Any sunscreen is better than none.

Well a stabilizing agent like Octocrylene would be necessary I think for it to work somewhat decently. Thanks for correcting my typo, you are a true pillar of the scientific community.

Edited by TheFountain, 12 May 2009 - 05:43 AM.

[Eva Victoria]

Hi Eva!

Hi Victor!

Sorry for not answering for some time. Please see my answers in blue.

The PM doesn't work because you are a registered user and not a member. There were so much spam and problematic people so now only members can use the PM function. I recommend that you register as a member if you would like to, It's cheap and you also contribute to the cause of extending life/prolonging youth.

True! Thanks!

I came up with some questions for you, so I will keep you busy for a while


1. The daily UV Index report http://www.smhi.se/c...jsp?d=7850&l=sv shows how much UV there is during a day, does this report account for all types of rays including UVA?

No. It is only UVB.

If the report says there is no significant UV at any given time, can you trust that there is no UVA either?

UVA rays are usually 10-30% higher than UVB.

For example in Scandinavia evenings are very long, is it necessary to protect your skin from the sun even after 6 PM when the sun is still shining?

I don't really think so. I think it is necessary to protect your skin from mid March to mid September every day in Scandinavia. In March-April and Mid August till mid September you should protect your skin between 10.30 - 14.30. The other months from 9.30-16.30. The sun is so low in Scandinavia outside of these hours that the damage you would accumulate is really minimal if you only stay outside after peek hours.
However, usually we tend to be outside in peek hours through our lives so we will accumulate more damage on the long run.


2. On labels about UVA protections it says "protection in compliance with european recommendations" how many percent of UVA rays does that mean it will block then?

It means that the sunscreen will protect up to 370 nm. The UVA protection is at least 1/3 of the labeled SPF. At 400nm however it might not protect at all.
Basically a sunscreen SPF 30 supposed to have a UVA protection (320-370nm) of UVA PF 10.

(I personally never have seen any sunscreen that protected as well as the SPF suggested.)

3. Some people in the medical community says that there is no correlation between malignt melanoma and UV exposure which has been shown because lack of UV-signature mutations in nearly all melanoma. However everyone agrees that UV rays causes the less deadly forms of skin cancer. What is your opinion?

My unofficial opinion is that UVB rays cause the less deadly form of skin cancer (AK, BCC, etc) and UVA rays cause Malignant Melanoma. There are studies from Australia showing the correlation between using sunscreen (protection against UVB) and the dramatic increase of Malignant Melanoma. I think I read several suties on the site of the Australian Government Skin Cancer site and on the site of the FDA.

4. Do you always recommend retinoids as a part of a preventive skin care regimen?

No.
I recommend
1. sun avoidance
2. Protective clothing, hats and sunglasses
3. Sunscreen with Anti-oxidants like stabil form of Vit.C, E, Ectoin (in Bioderma), Green Tea, Grape Seed Extract.

5. Any opinions about topical Vitamin B derivates, do they have similar effects as retinoids? Are there any other products with rejuvenating effects comparable to retinoids?

I did not know Vitamin B derivates had rejuvenating effect like retinoids. Vitamin B have good effect on skin and esp. on the Epidermis but they don't have any effect on the Dermis as far as I know.

The only substance that has effect on the Dermis are: Trans-Retinoic Acid = Tretinoin (Retin-A, Aberela in Scandinavia).
Asaleic Acid 15% or higher concentration.
Vitamin C 10% or higher concentration.


6. Since you claim to have been using sunscreens all your life and retinoids for a decade, have you noticed any visible age-related changes in your appearance compared to when you were for example 20, or have your skin stayed the same?

Oh, that is a hard one to answer in public:)

Well, first of all I have been using sunscreen every day without excception but I also protect my face against the sun with hats and huge sunglasses. And NEVER I mean NEVER EVER suntan my face! (And I think that is what makes the biggest difference: avoidance and protection).

The only difference I notice is a bit of collagen loss in the cheeks and in the eye-sockets (that is a natural part of aging unfortunatelly).
Maybe around my eyes there are a bit more very thin lines than before but not really noticeable.

I often hear from people they believe I am around 23. But again I am quite thin and not too tall so it can also make the misconception about age.

It would be interesting to hear exactly what "unavoidable" effects intrinsic aging has on apperance in the absence of UV damage and daily use of retinoids!

Like slower degradation of collagen fibers and loss of elasticity because of the pulling effect gravity has on our skin over time (like over 50).

Edited by Eva Victoria, 12 May 2009 - 02:21 PM.

[Eva Victoria]

I know you frequently advocate mineral based sunscreens, but how do you feel about Helioplex based sunscreens? I am currently using a spf 70 version from Neutrogena.

Helioplex is definitely is one of the best things on the UV protection front in the US. However, why I don't like chemical sunscreens is that they don't manage to protect the skin over 370nm (in the best case and the exception of Tinosorb S and Tinosorb M). Tinosorb S and Tinosorb M brings several problems: Tinosorb S is difficult to dissolve so it is not used in high concentration. It is usually used to stabilise AVO.
Tinosorb M should be used in high concentration to offer full protection which would make the product very whitening. It is a chemical UV filter with physical UV filter properties. Very much like ZnO but with higher efficiency.
These two filters are very expencive that'll make the product expencive and they are not approved worldwide (like AVO, OMC, Octocrylene or TiO2).

[Eva Victoria]

Eva,

I remember you were working on a sunscreen product - just wondering if it's available yet? If not, what sunscreen do you currently recommend for the face? Thanks! ~katz

Hi Katz,

Indeed and it is going better but still not perfect.

I would recommend Bioderma Photoderm 50+ or Minerale 50+.
Avene new sunscreens for 2009 with a pump. The UV protection is composed of OMC, Tinosorb M and Tinosorb S and a tiny bit of TiO2 and ZnO. Good as a day cream. Non irritating and the Emulsion version is matter (thanks to a polymer: PTFE) and feels light on the skin. Minus: fragrance though very little.

INCI:AVENE AQUA. ETHYLHEXYL METHOXYCINNAMATE. METHYLENE BIS-BENZOTRIAZOLYL TETRAMETHYLBUTYLPHENOL. AQUA. BUTYLENE GLYCOL. C12-15 ALKYL BENZOATE. CYCLOMETHICONE. BIS-ETHYLHEXYLOXYPHENOL METHOXYPHENYL TRIAZINE. PTFE. DIMETHICONE. CETEARYL ALCOHOL. C20-22 ALKYL PHOSPHATE. POLYMETHYL METHACRYLATE. C20-22 ALCOHOLS. CAPRYLIC/CAPRIC TRIGLYCERIDE. CHLORPENESIN. COCO-GLUCOSIDE. CUCURBITA PEPO. DECYL GLUCOSIDE. DISODIUM EDTA. PARFUM. HYDROXYETHYLACRYLATE / SODIUM ACRYLOYLDIMETHYL TAURATE COPOLYMER. PHENOXYETHANOL. POLYSORBATE 60. PROPYLENE GLYCOL. SORBIC ACID. SQUALANE. TITANIUM DIOXIDE TOCOPHERYL GLUCOSIDE. TRIETHANOLAMINE. TRIETHOXYCAPRYLYLSILANE. TRIMETHOXYCAPRYLYLSILANE. XANTHAN GUM. ZINC OXIDE.

[TheFountain]

Are european sunscreens the only ones that can effectively curtail some signs of UVA skin damage that may be accelerated by retinoid usage? In other words will not using a european sunscreen with scientifically proven ingredients like mexoryl always result in greater UVA damage and accelerated skin aging relative to sun exposure and retinoid usage (the fact that tretinoin makes us more sensitive to UVA rays)?

Edited by TheFountain, 12 May 2009 - 02:35 PM.

[Eva Victoria]

Is 2% avobenzene adequate for UVA protection if the sunscreen is applied every 3 hours?

Depends on what else is in the sunscreen and how much of it
I still believe that ZnO and Tinosorb M are much better UVA sunscreen agents than AVO. They are also inherently photostable.

[Eva Victoria]

Hi Eva

Hi Treonsverdery,

You find my answers in blue.

It is possible you are a cosmeceutical chemist

Aphrodite asked if she could eat ATP to minimize physiological glucose which she associated with glycation http://www.imminst.o...mp;#entry321872

I read that people make 90 pounds of ATP every 24 h
Pyruvate also is a chemical that energizes the citric acid cycle at masses possibly comparable to glucose

anyway even if eating atp to minimize glycation is a giant 43 Kg plateful I thought that 200 milligrams of ATP spread over a square meter of skin might give the dermal tissue say 300 cytes deep 20 pt more ATP energy thus creating a repair friendly cosmetic ingedient

Well, I don't know about that. You might like to ask a doctor who is more qualified to answer this.

do you think ATP plus a transport chemical like liposomes or sodium lauryl sulfate like I see on cosmetics labels creates an authentic way to bring a layer of tissue meaningful energy that precludes glycation, plus keeps the tissue energized to maintain hydration plus repair

I think peptides or Pollulan can do the job just fine. Or your own body as long as it is not overly exposed to UV light.

If it does then you could put ATP or pyruvate with sunsceen to make an strongly repair energized sunscreen

Well, not exactly.
The function of a sunscreen is to protect your skin. To be able to do that it should be on the surface of your skin as an even non-penetrating layer. A matryx that holds and evenly distributes the protecting agents either these are chemical or physical sunscreen agents or a mix of both.

A product which is meant to deliver something to your cells in the deeper layers of the skin should, on the other hand, be able to penetrate into the skin. To enhance penetration as you correctly wrote liposomes or Sodium Lauryl Sulphate are good candidates besides nanotopes or other penetration enhancers. A product like this would be best formulated as a serum and used under the sunscreen.
Carnosine is a very good glycation inhibiting ingredient for skincare.

Edited by Eva Victoria, 12 May 2009 - 02:51 PM.

[amonavis]

Hi Eva, I use an antioxidant product called Topix Replenix CF serum. The ingredients are as follows: Purified water, Caffeine USP, 90% Polyphenol Isolate of Camellia Sinensis Leaf, Sodium Hyaluronate, Bisabolol, Cucumis Sativus (Cucumber) Extract, Chamomilla Recutita (Chamomile) Extract, Triethanolamine, Polysorbate 20, Methylparaben, Diazolidinyl Urea, Tetrasodium EDTA.

I was wondering, is it OK to use this product with Tazorac cream? I am concerned about the Sodium Hyaluronate making the skin too "wet" which could cause problems with the retinoid?

If I put this product over the retinoid, will the high water content deactivate the retinoid?

Lastly, do ALL antioxidants remain in the skin for a few days or just vitamin C? If I use this product in the morning, do I even NEED to re apply it again or is already still working in my skin?

I notice on the Tazorac website that they recommend using a moisturizer before applying it. Wouldn't that dilute the effect of the retinoid?

Thank you!!!!

[Eva Victoria]

Hi Eva,

Hi Amonavis,

My answers are in blue.

I use an antioxidant product called Topix Replenix CF serum. The ingredients are as follows: Purified water, Caffeine USP, 90% Polyphenol Isolate of Camellia Sinensis Leaf, Sodium Hyaluronate, Bisabolol, Cucumis Sativus (Cucumber) Extract, Chamomilla Recutita (Chamomile) Extract, Triethanolamine, Polysorbate 20, Methylparaben, Diazolidinyl Urea, Tetrasodium EDTA.

If this is the full INCI declaration, then I do not see the vit.C nor Ferulic Acid. It also lacks Vit.E.

I was wondering, is it OK to use this product with Tazorac cream? I am concerned about the Sodium Hyaluronate making the skin too "wet" which could cause problems with the retinoid?

If the skin is too "wet" the effect of tretinoin would be enhanced. However when the skin is dry (after application of a product) it is fully possible to apply tretinoin as long there is no ingredient that can lessen or counteract the effect of a Retinoid (like Benzoyl Peroxide).

If I put this product over the retinoid, will the high water content deactivate the retinoid?

No. But I would wait until the skin is fully dry.

Lastly, do ALL antioxidants remain in the skin for a few days or just vitamin C? If I use this product in the morning, do I even NEED to re apply it again or is already still working in my skin?

As far as I know most anti-oxidants are used up during 2-6 hours their anti-oxidant effect.
Some say vit.C stays in the skin for 3-4 days.
I personally use a Vitamin C serum (with loads of other anti-oxidants) only in the morning.

I notice on the Tazorac website that they recommend using a moisturizer before applying it. Wouldn't that dilute the effect of the retinoid?

Indeed it would. However if you find the product too harsh on your skin it can be a good idea to dilute it with a moisturizer at least in the beginning till your skin gets used to the treatment.

Hope you'll find my answers useful.

Thank you!!!!

[DeGenisis]

Eva, what do you think of this sunscreen: Mexitan SPF 50 Sunscreen Lotion.
ACTIVE INGREDIENTS
* 6% Titanium Dioxide (Micronized) "T-Lite"
* 22.5% Zinc Oxide (Micronized) "Z-Cote"

OTHER NATURAL INGREDIENTS
* Deionized Water
* Sunflower Oil
* Lecithin (Soy-based)
* Coconut Oil
* Glycerine
* Xanthan Gum
* Green Tea Extract
* Jojoba Oil
* Tocopheryl Acetate (Vitamin E)
* Retinyl Palmitate (Vitamin A)
* Shea Butter
* Eucalyptus Oil

On the web site it says: " The titanium dioxide and zinc oxide used in Mexitan is micronized, with a coated variable particle size of 100-200nm. (Nanoparticles are less than 100nm in size). This allows our sunscreen lotions to be more cosmetically appealing compared to coarser particles. The protection is less visible, yet remains on the skin's surface."

Will these particle sizes (Z-Cote and T-Lite) give me adequate protection from UVA? The sunscreen is non-greasy, which is the most important thing for me? On the whiteness issue, it is slightly white, but I understand that this is necessary for UVA.


Also, is it acceptable to put a witchhazel/aloe toner on underneath sunscreen during the day? I have acne issues and clogged pores (I know that this sunscreen has coconut oil, but it is the least greasy I could find). Other acne agents like tretinoin and exfoliators over-sensitize my already sunburn prone skin. Even with fantastic sunscreen there are gaps in protection (summer is coming and I am a 17 year old guy). Are there any other acne agents available that would not sensitize my very white transparent skin?

One more question, I never used to burn as easily as I do now. But my skin has experienced a lot of abuse over the years due to anti-acne agents. Oral antibiotics, oral anti-inflammatories, tretinoin, gobs of oxidative stress- causing benzoil peroxide over new sunburns, some of these all at the same time and none of them with any sunscreen protection. Last summer, after having used tretinoin, I burned very badly so that I had scabs on my face. Instead of recovering I ended up lying on the beach some more and put benzoil peroxide on at night. I blame this on the dermatologists who did not inform me of the dangers of the sun and the interaction of acne medicines. Since then I have been good about using sunscreen all the time now and the health of my skin is slowly starting to return, ie. the skin is not so cold (even indoors) anymore and the texture is starting to return. The one issue remains is that I seem to burn much more easily than I used to. Could there be a connection between these past abuses and my current propensity to sunburn?

[Eva Victoria]

Hi DeGenisis,

Please view my answers in blue.

Eva, what do you think of this sunscreen: Mexitan SPF 50 Sunscreen Lotion.
ACTIVE INGREDIENTS
* 6% Titanium Dioxide (Micronized) "T-Lite"
* 22.5% Zinc Oxide (Micronized) "Z-Cote"

OTHER NATURAL INGREDIENTS
* Deionized Water
* Sunflower Oil
* Lecithin (Soy-based)
* Coconut Oil
* Glycerine
* Xanthan Gum
* Green Tea Extract
* Jojoba Oil
* Tocopheryl Acetate (Vitamin E)
* Retinyl Palmitate (Vitamin A)
* Shea Butter
* Eucalyptus Oil

It seems to be a bit oily to me.

On the web site it says: " The titanium dioxide and zinc oxide used in Mexitan is micronized, with a coated variable particle size of 100-200nm. (Nanoparticles are less than 100nm in size). This allows our sunscreen lotions to be more cosmetically appealing compared to coarser particles. The protection is less visible, yet remains on the skin's surface."

T-Lite and Z-Cote are trademarks of BASF. I use them myself. Most likely in this sunscreen the coated version is used that is especially made for use in sunscreens where Carbomer or Xanthan Gum is used.

Will these particle sizes (Z-Cote and T-Lite) give me adequate protection from UVA? The sunscreen is non-greasy, which is the most important thing for me? On the whiteness issue, it is slightly white, but I understand that this is necessary for UVA.

Well, TiO2 (T-Lite) will protect you up to 330nm and ZnO in Z-Cote around 370-375nm.
The good side of Z-Cote is that it is very little visible however I would always recommend using it together with ZnO of bigger particle size in the same formulation to give better UVA protection. (But then it is more visible on the skin as well).
However, this sunscreen is superior to many sunscreens on the market nevertheless. It is inherently photostable and suitable for sensitive skin.

Also, is it acceptable to put a witchhazel/aloe toner on underneath sunscreen during the day?

I have read some information about aloe veras oxidizing abilities in the presence of UV light. Which hazel (even though it is widely used as an anti-acne agent) is a skin sensitizer.
So I am not so sure it is the right thing to put on before sunexposure.

I have acne issues and clogged pores (I know that this sunscreen has coconut oil, but it is the least greasy I could find). Other acne agents like tretinoin and exfoliators over-sensitize my already sunburn prone skin. Even with fantastic sunscreen there are gaps in protection (summer is coming and I am a 17 year old guy). Are there any other acne agents available that would not sensitize my very white transparent skin?

Yes, 20% Azaleic Acid (Skinoren in EU). It is a strong anti-oxidant as well.

One more question, I never used to burn as easily as I do now. But my skin has experienced a lot of abuse over the years due to anti-acne agents. Oral antibiotics, oral anti-inflammatories, tretinoin, gobs of oxidative stress- causing benzoil peroxide over new sunburns, some of these all at the same time and none of them with any sunscreen protection. Last summer, after having used tretinoin, I burned very badly so that I had scabs on my face. Instead of recovering I ended up lying on the beach some more and put benzoil peroxide on at night. I blame this on the dermatologists who did not inform me of the dangers of the sun and the interaction of acne medicines. Since then I have been good about using sunscreen all the time now and the health of my skin is slowly starting to return, ie. the skin is not so cold (even indoors) anymore and the texture is starting to return.

It is really sad that dermatologists did not inform you about the crucial importance of sunprotection when using so strong topicals. Am really sorry for your bad experience in the sun.
The good news is that our skin CAN heal over time when it is let be in peace and well protected against UVR. You are very young so it should not be a problem to recover fully over some years. However I would recommend the usage of a sunscreen daily and avoidance of unnecessary sun exposure.

The one issue remains is that I seem to burn much more easily than I used to. Could there be a connection between these past abuses and my current propensity to sunburn?

I don't think I am the right person to answer this question but the probability that there is a connection seems reasonable to me.

I wish you all the best! And keep up the good habit of using sunscreens.

[Eva Victoria]

Hi DeGenisis,

Please view my answers in blue.

Eva, what do you think of this sunscreen: Mexitan SPF 50 Sunscreen Lotion.
ACTIVE INGREDIENTS
* 6% Titanium Dioxide (Micronized) "T-Lite"
* 22.5% Zinc Oxide (Micronized) "Z-Cote"

OTHER NATURAL INGREDIENTS
* Deionized Water
* Sunflower Oil
* Lecithin (Soy-based)
* Coconut Oil
* Glycerine
* Xanthan Gum
* Green Tea Extract
* Jojoba Oil
* Tocopheryl Acetate (Vitamin E)
* Retinyl Palmitate (Vitamin A)
* Shea Butter
* Eucalyptus Oil

It seems to be a bit oily to me.

On the web site it says: " The titanium dioxide and zinc oxide used in Mexitan is micronized, with a coated variable particle size of 100-200nm. (Nanoparticles are less than 100nm in size). This allows our sunscreen lotions to be more cosmetically appealing compared to coarser particles. The protection is less visible, yet remains on the skin's surface."

T-Lite and Z-Cote are trademarks of BASF. I use them myself. Most likely in this sunscreen the coated version is used that is especially made for use in sunscreens where Carbomer or Xanthan Gum is used.

Will these particle sizes (Z-Cote and T-Lite) give me adequate protection from UVA? The sunscreen is non-greasy, which is the most important thing for me? On the whiteness issue, it is slightly white, but I understand that this is necessary for UVA.

Well, TiO2 (T-Lite) will protect you up to 330nm and ZnO in Z-Cote around 370-375nm.
The good side of Z-Cote is that it is very little visible however I would always recommend using it together with ZnO of bigger particle size in the same formulation to give better UVA protection. (But then it is more visible on the skin as well).
However, this sunscreen is superior to many sunscreens on the market nevertheless. It is inherently photostable and suitable for sensitive skin.

Also, is it acceptable to put a witchhazel/aloe toner on underneath sunscreen during the day?

I have read some information about aloe veras oxidizing abilities in the presence of UV light. Which hazel (even though it is widely used as an anti-acne agent) is a skin sensitizer.
So I am not so sure it is the right thing to put on before sunexposure.

I have acne issues and clogged pores (I know that this sunscreen has coconut oil, but it is the least greasy I could find). Other acne agents like tretinoin and exfoliators over-sensitize my already sunburn prone skin. Even with fantastic sunscreen there are gaps in protection (summer is coming and I am a 17 year old guy). Are there any other acne agents available that would not sensitize my very white transparent skin?

Yes, 20% Azaleic Acid (Skinoren in EU). It is a strong anti-oxidant as well.

One more question, I never used to burn as easily as I do now. But my skin has experienced a lot of abuse over the years due to anti-acne agents. Oral antibiotics, oral anti-inflammatories, tretinoin, gobs of oxidative stress- causing benzoil peroxide over new sunburns, some of these all at the same time and none of them with any sunscreen protection. Last summer, after having used tretinoin, I burned very badly so that I had scabs on my face. Instead of recovering I ended up lying on the beach some more and put benzoil peroxide on at night. I blame this on the dermatologists who did not inform me of the dangers of the sun and the interaction of acne medicines. Since then I have been good about using sunscreen all the time now and the health of my skin is slowly starting to return, ie. the skin is not so cold (even indoors) anymore and the texture is starting to return.

It is really sad that dermatologists did not inform you about the crucial importance of sunprotection when using so strong topicals. Am really sorry for your bad experience in the sun.
The good news is that our skin CAN heal over time when it is let be in peace and well protected against UVR. You are very young so it should not be a problem to recover fully over some years. However I would recommend the usage of a sunscreen daily and avoidance of unnecessary sun exposure.

The one issue remains is that I seem to burn much more easily than I used to. Could there be a connection between these past abuses and my current propensity to sunburn?

I don't think I am the right person to answer this question but the probability that there is a connection seems reasonable to me.

I wish you all the best! And keep up the good habit of using sunscreens.

One more thing. I checked all the Z-Cote and T-Lite formulas. There is one ZnO (Z-Cote) that is uncoated but all degrees of T-Lite (TiO2) are coated.
Then I don't understand why the manufacturer does not state the full ingredient list? (INCI). Besides that uncoated particles of ZnO and TiO2 can generate free-radicals.

http://www.mexitanpr...spf50label.html


Here are the grades of Z-Cote and T-Lite from BASF: (All have the same protection spectrum independent of the coating or the lack of it.)

Z-COTE 30083071 Zinc Oxide 1314-13-2
Z-COTE HP 1 30083072 Zinc Oxide (and)Triethoxycaprylylsilane
1314-13-2
2943-75-1
Z-COTE MAX 30254438 Zinc Oxide (and) Dimethoxydiphenylsilane/Triethoxycaprylylsilane Crosspolymer
1314-13-2
827036-50-0
T-Lite SF 30245184 Titanium Dioxide (and) Aluminum Hydroxide(and) Dimethicone/Methicone Copolymer
13463-67-7
21645-51-2
68037-59-2
T-Lite SF-S 30245186 Titanium Dioxide (and) Hydrated Silica (and)Dimethicone/Methicone Copolymer (and)Aluminum Hydroxide
13463-67-7
1343-98-2
21645-51-2
68037-59-2
T-Lite MAX 30285840 Titanium Dioxide (and) Dimethoxydiphenylsilane/Triethoxycaprylylsilane Crosspolymer(and) Hydrated Silica (and) AluminumHydroxide
13463-67-7
827036-50-0
1343-98-2
21645-51-2

[DeGenisis]

Do you know a good place to buy azelaic acid online that ships internationally (I live in Canada)? Even though I also have rosacea, my derm will only prescribe metronidazole.

[TheFountain]

Are mineral based sunscreens really adequate to protect against UVA rays?

[Eva Victoria]

Do you know a good place to buy azelaic acid online that ships internationally (I live in Canada)? Even though I also have rosacea, my derm will only prescribe metronidazole.

No, unfortunately I don't.

[Eva Victoria]

Are mineral based sunscreens really adequate to protect against UVA rays?

Very much so. Especially ZnO since it covers the entire UVA range. TiO2 is an excellent UVB and short wave UVA protector. They are both inherently photostable. They do not degrade in the presence of UV light. Organic sunscreens degrade very fast and produce oxidants. When TiO2 or ZnO are coated they generate much less oxidants. One of the newest and most innovative coating for TiO2 is from Oxonica. Their TiO2 is coated with Manganese which almost entirely eliminates free-radical production in the presence of UVR and makes that the TiO2 has full spectrum protection (up to 385nm). this material is called Optisol and you can find it in the sunscreen range from Boots (Soltan).

On other good way to protect oneself against short end long wave UVAR is using Tinosorb M. It behaves like a physical filter and inherently photostable. It protects fully between 320-410nm.

However we should remember for a sunscreen to be able to protect our skin agains UVR it is necessary to use adequate levels of pigments well dispersed in a matrix.
Basically, 2-5% ZnO won't protect the skin very much.
20-25% ZnO with the addition of 3-5% TiO2 will produce an excellent sunscreen.
10% Tinosorb M with the combination of either 5% OMC and 2% TinosorbS (and/or 3-5% additional particle filters) will produce a less whitening sunscreen with a higher SPF and a very good UVA protection.

The whitening of these sunscreens can be counteracted by using silicone elastomer blends which have the additional benefit of creating a film on the surface of the skin and making it possible to disperse the UV filters in the formulation better. Additional benefit is the silky feel on the skin and that the skin appears much less shiny and matter (Tinosorb M has the tendency to be very shiny on the skin esp. in higher concentrations).

But I really don't understand why cosmetic companies don't use this technology which have been available since 1989?

[Mia K.]

Do you know a good place to buy azelaic acid online that ships internationally (I live in Canada)? Even though I also have rosacea, my derm will only prescribe metronidazole.

Hi DeGenisis,


Obviously not Eva but:

I have found RiverPharmacy.com to be an excellent source.  They do carry azaleic acid  https://www.riverpha...eIngredient=442   No Rx req., excellent customer service, high quality products, reasonable shipping time. (Buy in quantity to save on $hipping.)

Best, M 

[immortali457]

Do you know a good place to buy azelaic acid online that ships internationally (I live in Canada)? Even though I also have rosacea, my derm will only prescribe metronidazole.

http://www.alldaychemist.com
They have it. Not sure if they ship to Canada though.

Edited by immortali457, 23 May 2009 - 07:57 PM.

[TheFountain]

Are mineral based sunscreens really adequate to protect against UVA rays?

Very much so. Especially ZnO since it covers the entire UVA range. TiO2 is an excellent UVB and short wave UVA protector. They are both inherently photostable. They do not degrade in the presence of UV light. Organic sunscreens degrade very fast and produce oxidants. When TiO2 or ZnO are coated they generate much less oxidants. One of the newest and most innovative coating for TiO2 is from Oxonica. Their TiO2 is coated with Manganese which almost entirely eliminates free-radical production in the presence of UVR and makes that the TiO2 has full spectrum protection (up to 385nm). this material is called Optisol and you can find it in the sunscreen range from Boots (Soltan).

On other good way to protect oneself against short end long wave UVAR is using Tinosorb M. It behaves like a physical filter and inherently photostable. It protects fully between 320-410nm.

However we should remember for a sunscreen to be able to protect our skin agains UVR it is necessary to use adequate levels of pigments well dispersed in a matrix.
Basically, 2-5% ZnO won't protect the skin very much.
20-25% ZnO with the addition of 3-5% TiO2 will produce an excellent sunscreen.
10% Tinosorb M with the combination of either 5% OMC and 2% TinosorbS (and/or 3-5% additional particle filters) will produce a less whitening sunscreen with a higher SPF and a very good UVA protection.

The whitening of these sunscreens can be counteracted by using silicone elastomer blends which have the additional benefit of creating a film on the surface of the skin and making it possible to disperse the UV filters in the formulation better. Additional benefit is the silky feel on the skin and that the skin appears much less shiny and matter (Tinosorb M has the tendency to be very shiny on the skin esp. in higher concentrations).

But I really don't understand why cosmetic companies don't use this technology which have been available since 1989?

For the same reason they actively still use talcam in many mineral based products. They keep peoples skin damaged in the long term, thus in need of more cosmetics! I know, I know, I am a conspiracy theorist when it comes to these things, and probably 90% of my paranoias are just that, but my paranoia also helps me to avoid garbage products and consult with mindful clinicians and experts such as yourself about these things while i study and expand my own awareness and knowledge. What is your top mineral based sunscreen recommendation?