579 replies to this topic

[immortali457]

Hi Eva....what are your thought's in regards to this post by Fredrik about topical Resveratrol?
http://www.imminst.o...&...st&p=201092

I'm thinking of using the Metabiotics Resveratrol extract you mentioned and was wondering about the above post. Thanks.

[Eva Victoria]

Are mineral based sunscreens really adequate to protect against UVA rays?

Very much so. Especially ZnO since it covers the entire UVA range. TiO2 is an excellent UVB and short wave UVA protector. They are both inherently photostable. They do not degrade in the presence of UV light. Organic sunscreens degrade very fast and produce oxidants. When TiO2 or ZnO are coated they generate much less oxidants. One of the newest and most innovative coating for TiO2 is from Oxonica. Their TiO2 is coated with Manganese which almost entirely eliminates free-radical production in the presence of UVR and makes that the TiO2 has full spectrum protection (up to 385nm). this material is called Optisol and you can find it in the sunscreen range from Boots (Soltan).

On other good way to protect oneself against short end long wave UVAR is using Tinosorb M. It behaves like a physical filter and inherently photostable. It protects fully between 320-410nm.

However we should remember for a sunscreen to be able to protect our skin agains UVR it is necessary to use adequate levels of pigments well dispersed in a matrix.
Basically, 2-5% ZnO won't protect the skin very much.
20-25% ZnO with the addition of 3-5% TiO2 will produce an excellent sunscreen.
10% Tinosorb M with the combination of either 5% OMC and 2% TinosorbS (and/or 3-5% additional particle filters) will produce a less whitening sunscreen with a higher SPF and a very good UVA protection.

The whitening of these sunscreens can be counteracted by using silicone elastomer blends which have the additional benefit of creating a film on the surface of the skin and making it possible to disperse the UV filters in the formulation better. Additional benefit is the silky feel on the skin and that the skin appears much less shiny and matter (Tinosorb M has the tendency to be very shiny on the skin esp. in higher concentrations).

But I really don't understand why cosmetic companies don't use this technology which have been available since 1989?

For the same reason they actively still use talcam in many mineral based products. They keep peoples skin damaged in the long term, thus in need of more cosmetics! I know, I know, I am a conspiracy theorist when it comes to these things, and probably 90% of my paranoias are just that, but my paranoia also helps me to avoid garbage products and consult with mindful clinicians and experts such as yourself about these things while i study and expand my own awareness and knowledge. What is your top mineral based sunscreen recommendation?

I like Bioderma Photoderm Mineral sunscreen SPF50+\UVA 22.

[Eva Victoria]

Hi Eva....what are your thought's in regards to this post by Fredrik about topical Resveratrol?
http://www.imminst.o...&...st&p=201092

I'm thinking of using the Metabiotics Resveratrol extract you mentioned and was wondering about the above post. Thanks.

Well, I tend to agree with Frederik, there is still not enough known about Resveratrol.
I don`t use Resveratrol in my products at least for now.

[VictorBjoerk]

Eva: Do you/have you used anti-glycation products? Do you recommend others do use them as a part of their skin care regime?
Do you know of any impressive results/studies on anti-glycation serums? Please motivate !

[TheFountain]

Are mineral based sunscreens really adequate to protect against UVA rays?

Very much so. Especially ZnO since it covers the entire UVA range. TiO2 is an excellent UVB and short wave UVA protector. They are both inherently photostable. They do not degrade in the presence of UV light. Organic sunscreens degrade very fast and produce oxidants. When TiO2 or ZnO are coated they generate much less oxidants. One of the newest and most innovative coating for TiO2 is from Oxonica. Their TiO2 is coated with Manganese which almost entirely eliminates free-radical production in the presence of UVR and makes that the TiO2 has full spectrum protection (up to 385nm). this material is called Optisol and you can find it in the sunscreen range from Boots (Soltan).

On other good way to protect oneself against short end long wave UVAR is using Tinosorb M. It behaves like a physical filter and inherently photostable. It protects fully between 320-410nm.

However we should remember for a sunscreen to be able to protect our skin agains UVR it is necessary to use adequate levels of pigments well dispersed in a matrix.
Basically, 2-5% ZnO won't protect the skin very much.
20-25% ZnO with the addition of 3-5% TiO2 will produce an excellent sunscreen.
10% Tinosorb M with the combination of either 5% OMC and 2% TinosorbS (and/or 3-5% additional particle filters) will produce a less whitening sunscreen with a higher SPF and a very good UVA protection.

The whitening of these sunscreens can be counteracted by using silicone elastomer blends which have the additional benefit of creating a film on the surface of the skin and making it possible to disperse the UV filters in the formulation better. Additional benefit is the silky feel on the skin and that the skin appears much less shiny and matter (Tinosorb M has the tendency to be very shiny on the skin esp. in higher concentrations).

But I really don't understand why cosmetic companies don't use this technology which have been available since 1989?

For the same reason they actively still use talcam in many mineral based products. They keep peoples skin damaged in the long term, thus in need of more cosmetics! I know, I know, I am a conspiracy theorist when it comes to these things, and probably 90% of my paranoias are just that, but my paranoia also helps me to avoid garbage products and consult with mindful clinicians and experts such as yourself about these things while i study and expand my own awareness and knowledge. What is your top mineral based sunscreen recommendation?

I like Bioderma Photoderm Mineral sunscreen SPF50+\UVA 22.

I thought you were going to say that. Which is why I ordered some on ebay for around 10$!

But do mineral sunscreens have to be re-applied as much as chemical sunscreens?

Edited by TheFountain, 24 May 2009 - 09:16 PM.

[jessicantique]

i live in asia and the uva index is "pa+++", does anyone know how to convert the "pa" system to the uva system?

[immortali457]

I received my bottle of Bioderma Photoderm Max SPF 50+ (It's actually SPF 100 as the French dont allow it to say over 50)
PPD35..........I noticed these two ingredients that look promising. Eva I believe you've mentioned one (Ectoin) before.

http://www.biodermat...l...=1&cateid=1

[Eva Victoria]

Eva: Do you/have you used anti-glycation products? Do you recommend others do use them as a part of their skin care regime?
Do you know of any impressive results/studies on anti-glycation serums? Please motivate !

I use my own serum that does contain glycation inhibiting ingredients: Carnosine and Soyaglycone.
I do not really believe anything can help you to stay young(er) longer than using a well formulates high PPD, photo stable sunscreen every day.
And practice sun avoidance.
So basically, the best policy is avoidance and use of sunscreen everyday. And it is far less cheaper than any other fancy product.
Using Tretinoin additionally at night will definitely give you clinically proven results when it comes to rejuvenation of the skin and prevention of later skin damage.

[Eva Victoria]

Are mineral based sunscreens really adequate to protect against UVA rays?

Very much so. Especially ZnO since it covers the entire UVA range. TiO2 is an excellent UVB and short wave UVA protector. They are both inherently photostable. They do not degrade in the presence of UV light. Organic sunscreens degrade very fast and produce oxidants. When TiO2 or ZnO are coated they generate much less oxidants. One of the newest and most innovative coating for TiO2 is from Oxonica. Their TiO2 is coated with Manganese which almost entirely eliminates free-radical production in the presence of UVR and makes that the TiO2 has full spectrum protection (up to 385nm). this material is called Optisol and you can find it in the sunscreen range from Boots (Soltan).

On other good way to protect oneself against short end long wave UVAR is using Tinosorb M. It behaves like a physical filter and inherently photostable. It protects fully between 320-410nm.

However we should remember for a sunscreen to be able to protect our skin agains UVR it is necessary to use adequate levels of pigments well dispersed in a matrix.
Basically, 2-5% ZnO won't protect the skin very much.
20-25% ZnO with the addition of 3-5% TiO2 will produce an excellent sunscreen.
10% Tinosorb M with the combination of either 5% OMC and 2% TinosorbS (and/or 3-5% additional particle filters) will produce a less whitening sunscreen with a higher SPF and a very good UVA protection.

The whitening of these sunscreens can be counteracted by using silicone elastomer blends which have the additional benefit of creating a film on the surface of the skin and making it possible to disperse the UV filters in the formulation better. Additional benefit is the silky feel on the skin and that the skin appears much less shiny and matter (Tinosorb M has the tendency to be very shiny on the skin esp. in higher concentrations).

But I really don't understand why cosmetic companies don't use this technology which have been available since 1989?

For the same reason they actively still use talcam in many mineral based products. They keep peoples skin damaged in the long term, thus in need of more cosmetics! I know, I know, I am a conspiracy theorist when it comes to these things, and probably 90% of my paranoias are just that, but my paranoia also helps me to avoid garbage products and consult with mindful clinicians and experts such as yourself about these things while i study and expand my own awareness and knowledge. What is your top mineral based sunscreen recommendation?

I like Bioderma Photoderm Mineral sunscreen SPF50+\UVA 22.

I thought you were going to say that. Which is why I ordered some on ebay for around 10$!

But do mineral sunscreens have to be re-applied as much as chemical sunscreens?

Not at all. They are inherently photo stable. They need to be reapplied if you rub it off or sweat too much.

[Eva Victoria]

i live in asia and the uva index is "pa+++", does anyone know how to convert the "pa" system to the uva system?

PA+ PPD<6
PA++ PPD = 6-8
PA+++ PPD>8

Edited by Eva Victoria, 27 May 2009 - 07:15 PM.

[Eva Victoria]

I received my bottle of Bioderma Photoderm Max SPF 50+ (It's actually SPF 100 as the French dont allow it to say over 50)
PPD35..........I noticed these two ingredients that look promising. Eva I believe you've mentioned one (Ectoin) before.

http://www.biodermat...l...=1&cateid=1

Indeed. Ectoin is a very very good very stable naturally derived anti-oxidant that is stable in any ph for a very long time.
But one thing I have to add is that Bioderma does not use it in high concentration in their sunscreens.
The producer (Merck) recommend 2% in finished formulations. (Which is what I follow). Bioderma uses it under 1% concentration.
But again, stabil UV filters are the most important for the best possible protection and anti-oxidants come only as a second line of defense against UV-induced damage.

[immortali457]

Eva, the sunscreen (Bioderma) that I bought is pretty watery as it is a pump spray. I'm gonna replace the pump and just measure out the amount I need.
My question is this. It is so much easier to apply the recommended amount of sunscreen in this kind of formulation (watery) compared to most other thicker ones. Is the required amount to use (aprox. 1/2 tsp for face/neck combined) the same regardless of how thick or watery the sunscreen is? Thanks

[nancyd]

I like Bioderma Photoderm Mineral sunscreen SPF50+\UVA 22.

Are there any tricks to applying this sunscreen? I had a sample and it looked very extreme on me. I would really like to use it on days I go to work though because I can't really reapply sunscreen at work since I put powder over it in the morning. Currently I use Bioderma KIDS SPF 50 but think I probably don't have much protection left at the end of the work day since it's a chemical sunscreen that degrades. The mineral sunscreen would solve this problem.

[Eva Victoria]

Eva, the sunscreen (Bioderma) that I bought is pretty watery as it is a pump spray. I'm gonna replace the pump and just measure out the amount I need.
My question is this. It is so much easier to apply the recommended amount of sunscreen in this kind of formulation (watery) compared to most other thicker ones. Is the required amount to use (aprox. 1/2 tsp for face/neck combined) the same regardless of how thick or watery the sunscreen is? Thanks

Fredrik posted a very good study about the application of sunscreens. It is 1 full tablespoon for the face, regardless of consistency.

[Eva Victoria]

I like Bioderma Photoderm Mineral sunscreen SPF50+\UVA 22.

Are there any tricks to applying this sunscreen? I had a sample and it looked very extreme on me. I would really like to use it on days I go to work though because I can't really reapply sunscreen at work since I put powder over it in the morning. Currently I use Bioderma KIDS SPF 50 but think I probably don't have much protection left at the end of the work day since it's a chemical sunscreen that degrades. The mineral sunscreen would solve this problem.

Since you are a woman then luckily you can apply a darker than normal powder on top so the whiteness will be minimized. I would recommend waiting 10 min for the sunscreen to settle and than applied the powder.

[immortali457]

Eva, the sunscreen (Bioderma) that I bought is pretty watery as it is a pump spray. I'm gonna replace the pump and just measure out the amount I need.
My question is this. It is so much easier to apply the recommended amount of sunscreen in this kind of formulation (watery) compared to most other thicker ones. Is the required amount to use (aprox. 1/2 tsp for face/neck combined) the same regardless of how thick or watery the sunscreen is? Thanks

Fredrik posted a very good study about the application of sunscreens. It is 1 full tablespoon for the face, regardless of consistency.

I tbsp for just the face?????????Obviously you meant less. Can you imagine....lol

[Eva Victoria]

Eva, the sunscreen (Bioderma) that I bought is pretty watery as it is a pump spray. I'm gonna replace the pump and just measure out the amount I need.
My question is this. It is so much easier to apply the recommended amount of sunscreen in this kind of formulation (watery) compared to most other thicker ones. Is the required amount to use (aprox. 1/2 tsp for face/neck combined) the same regardless of how thick or watery the sunscreen is? Thanks

Fredrik posted a very good study about the application of sunscreens. It is 1 full tablespoon for the face, regardless of consistency.

I tbsp for just the face?????????Obviously you meant less. Can you imagine....lol

Thanks for the correction. I meant 1/2 tablespoon for the face to achieve the same SPF as on the bottle.

[nancyd]

Eva, the sunscreen (Bioderma) that I bought is pretty watery as it is a pump spray. I'm gonna replace the pump and just measure out the amount I need.
My question is this. It is so much easier to apply the recommended amount of sunscreen in this kind of formulation (watery) compared to most other thicker ones. Is the required amount to use (aprox. 1/2 tsp for face/neck combined) the same regardless of how thick or watery the sunscreen is? Thanks

Fredrik posted a very good study about the application of sunscreens. It is 1 full tablespoon for the face, regardless of consistency.

I tbsp for just the face?????????Obviously you meant less. Can you imagine....lol

Thanks for the correction. I meant 1/2 tablespoon for the face to achieve the same SPF as on the bottle.

That is so much. Is it 1/2 T for the face AND neck? I thought it was 1/2 tsp for both face and neck and that was hard to look normal in itself.

Edited by nancyd, 29 May 2009 - 05:09 PM.

[immortali457]

Eva, the sunscreen (Bioderma) that I bought is pretty watery as it is a pump spray. I'm gonna replace the pump and just measure out the amount I need.
My question is this. It is so much easier to apply the recommended amount of sunscreen in this kind of formulation (watery) compared to most other thicker ones. Is the required amount to use (aprox. 1/2 tsp for face/neck combined) the same regardless of how thick or watery the sunscreen is? Thanks

Fredrik posted a very good study about the application of sunscreens. It is 1 full tablespoon for the face, regardless of consistency.

I tbsp for just the face?????????Obviously you meant less. Can you imagine....lol

Thanks for the correction. I meant 1/2 tablespoon for the face to achieve the same SPF as on the bottle.

That is so much. Is it 1/2 T for the face AND neck? I thought it was 1/2 tsp for both face and neck and that was hard to look normal in itself.

Yes you are correct. That is what I've read as well. Others such as the link Fredrik gave, say about 1/3 tsp. for the face and a 1/3 tsp. for the neck.
This explains things well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunscreen

[Eva Victoria]

Eva, the sunscreen (Bioderma) that I bought is pretty watery as it is a pump spray. I'm gonna replace the pump and just measure out the amount I need.
My question is this. It is so much easier to apply the recommended amount of sunscreen in this kind of formulation (watery) compared to most other thicker ones. Is the required amount to use (aprox. 1/2 tsp for face/neck combined) the same regardless of how thick or watery the sunscreen is? Thanks

Fredrik posted a very good study about the application of sunscreens. It is 1 full tablespoon for the face, regardless of consistency.

I tbsp for just the face?????????Obviously you meant less. Can you imagine....lol

Thanks for the correction. I meant 1/2 tablespoon for the face to achieve the same SPF as on the bottle.

That is so much. Is it 1/2 T for the face AND neck? I thought it was 1/2 tsp for both face and neck and that was hard to look normal in itself.

Yes you are correct. That is what I've read as well. Others such as the link Fredrik gave, say about 1/3 tsp. for the face and a 1/3 tsp. for the neck.
This explains things well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunscreen

Here is the link to the topic Fredric posted:

http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=30019

It says 1/3 tbs. for the face. But in the original article it said 1/2 tbs.

http://www.nytimes.c...Q5BQ3E.MiQ22HTq

Edited by Eva Victoria, 30 May 2009 - 05:37 PM.

[Mia K.]

Here is the link to the topic Fredric posted:

http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=30019

It says 1/3 tbs. for the face. But in the original article it said 1/2 tbs.

http://www.nytimes.c...Q5BQ3E.MiQ22HTq

Hi Eva,

I'm sure it was just a typo but your post should read 1/3 tsp. (teaspoon) not tbs. (tablespoon).  Three tsps. (3t.) = one Tbs. (1T.)

I've always read the 1/4t. each face and neck as mentioned above, and I find even that amount is quite a bit to apply.  I keep a measuring spoon on my vanity.

A question for you, I've read elsewhere (on MakeUpAlley.com) that the fluides can be applied more thinly.  Any truth to this?

Hope you are well.    Is your line launched?

Best, Mia 

[immortali457]

This is a good example as to why you should not follow someones advice blindly. No matter how knowledgable they are on a subject. Do your own research as well.

[Eva Victoria]

Here is the link to the topic Fredric posted:

http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=30019

It says 1/3 tbs. for the face. But in the original article it said 1/2 tbs.

http://www.nytimes.c...Q5BQ3E.MiQ22HTq

Hi Eva,

I'm sure it was just a typo but your post should read 1/3 tsp. (teaspoon) not tbs. (tablespoon). Three tsps. (3t.) = one Tbs. (1T.)

I've always read the 1/4t. each face and neck as mentioned above, and I find even that amount is quite a bit to apply. I keep a measuring spoon on my vanity.

A question for you, I've read elsewhere (on MakeUpAlley.com) that the fluides can be applied more thinly. Any truth to this?

Hope you are well. Is your line launched?

Best, Mia

Hi Mia,

Sorry to disappoint you but it is indeed 1/3 of a tablespoon of sunscreen that is recommended for the face to achieve the SPF and PA on the product label.

Fluids generally feel lighter on the skin so it is easier to apply them on the skin even in higher amount.

Enjoy summer!

Best wishes,

Eva Vic.

[Mia K.]

Confusion reigns!  According to Fredrik's post   http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=30019   "applying 2 mg/cm^2 (about 0.37 tsp to face)"  provides the protection as labelled.  I simply could not apply 1/3 Tbs (=1 tsp) of s/s to my face as you say, Eva.  BTW, I do like the Avene Emulsion (w/pump for 2009) that you've recommended.  Had to overcome the scent, but at least it doesn't linger and my skin doesn't react.  Thanks.

Best, M. 

Edit to add: italics mine.

Edited by Mia K., 02 June 2009 - 11:58 PM.

[immortali457]

Here is the link to the topic Fredric posted:

http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=30019

It says 1/3 tbs. for the face. But in the original article it said 1/2 tbs.

http://www.nytimes.c...Q5BQ3E.MiQ22HTq

Hi Eva,

I'm sure it was just a typo but your post should read 1/3 tsp. (teaspoon) not tbs. (tablespoon). Three tsps. (3t.) = one Tbs. (1T.)

I've always read the 1/4t. each face and neck as mentioned above, and I find even that amount is quite a bit to apply. I keep a measuring spoon on my vanity.

A question for you, I've read elsewhere (on MakeUpAlley.com) that the fluides can be applied more thinly. Any truth to this?

Hope you are well. Is your line launched?

Best, Mia

Hi Mia,

Sorry to disappoint you but it is indeed 1/3 of a tablespoon of sunscreen that is recommended for the face to achieve the SPF and PA on the product label.

Fluids generally feel lighter on the skin so it is easier to apply them on the skin even in higher amount.

Enjoy summer!

Best wishes,

Eva Vic.

Come on. Show me some science behind that??? Jeesh it's hard enough to get folks to apply 1/4 tsp to the face and 1/4 to the neck without them having to read something like that.

[immortali457]

http://makeupalley.c...me=sunscreenFAQ

http://www.skincarec...xfoliators.html

http://www.essential...d.php?tid=32549

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunscreen

[immortali457]

Wrong link above. http://www.skincarec...ens-about-.html

[Eva Victoria]

Here is the link to the topic Fredric posted:

http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=30019

It says 1/3 tbs. for the face. But in the original article it said 1/2 tbs.

http://www.nytimes.c...Q5BQ3E.MiQ22HTq

Hi Eva,

I'm sure it was just a typo but your post should read 1/3 tsp. (teaspoon) not tbs. (tablespoon). Three tsps. (3t.) = one Tbs. (1T.)

I've always read the 1/4t. each face and neck as mentioned above, and I find even that amount is quite a bit to apply. I keep a measuring spoon on my vanity.

A question for you, I've read elsewhere (on MakeUpAlley.com) that the fluides can be applied more thinly. Any truth to this?

Hope you are well. Is your line launched?

Best, Mia

Hi Mia,

Sorry to disappoint you but it is indeed 1/3 of a tablespoon of sunscreen that is recommended for the face to achieve the SPF and PA on the product label.

Fluids generally feel lighter on the skin so it is easier to apply them on the skin even in higher amount.

Enjoy summer!

Best wishes,

Eva Vic.

Come on. Show me some science behind that??? Jeesh it's hard enough to get folks to apply 1/4 tsp to the face and 1/4 to the neck without them having to read something like that.

If one need 2 mg/cm² sunscreen to equal the SPF on the label of the product that will be 1 teaspoon. 1 teaspoon is approx. 1/3 of a tablespoon.

You can find sufficient data about the correct amount of sunscreen should be applied for the face and body (30ml/1 oz.) on the official site of the FDA and also on Colipa.
Here is a link to an alternative application:

http://dermatology.c.../castanedo.html

I would also like to add: I don't make the rules. In my personal opinion sunscreens should be allowed to have more concentration of the actives, hence less amount per application would be sufficient enough.

Many dermatologists state that people do not apply sunscreen sufficiently hence they do not achieve the SPF on the label.

http://www.nytimes.c...Q5BQ3E.MiQ22HTq

[immortali457]

Sorry I'm sticking to what most everyone else is saying.

[Mia K.]

Sorry I'm sticking to what most everyone else is saying.

Ditto

Eva Vic. you wrote  I would also like to add: I don't make the rules. In my personal opinion sunscreens should be allowed to have more concentration of the actives, hence less amount per application would be sufficient enough.

 Seconded.

I'll take you at your word that you apply s/s at the rate of one(1) teaspooon(tsp) = 5 mL to the face area only.  And that you reapply this every two(2) hours or so.  My hat (large brimmed and not-so-floppy) is off to you.

What cleanser do you use to remove this? 

Best, Mia