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After 5 months of tretinoin use


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#31 TheFountain

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 11:57 AM

In cases like this - your skin is trying to tell you something :-D

less frequent use, weaker percentage of actives - or switching to one of the Avene retinyldehyde products would probably be your best bet.

It sounds like you are triggering chronic inflammation which actually creates skin damage, not the reverse - so your regimen becomes counterproductive.

VL


Well since reading the advise of people like Mia and the other fellow I have very very sparingly been applying it and using a facial cleanser instead of soap, which has already begin to make a difference. Another thing I realized that was working against me was my loofah sponge for facial cleansing and to help exfoliate the dead skin cells. It was too harsh for the tretinoin treated, delicate facial skin so I am not using that for a long time anywhere on my face. Instead I use a dampened wash cloth very very gently, no more hot water on my face, warm or luke warm and no more exfoliation. The new approach is gentility and sparing use of tretinoin. I am sure I am not the first idiot who has made this mistake and recovered from it.

#32 TheFountain

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 05:08 PM

By the way does anyone know if it is alright to use Retinol on the days when you're not using retin-a? Just curious if there are any interactions one should be aware of.

Edited by TheFountain, 29 August 2009 - 05:10 PM.


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#33 TheFountain

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 02:06 PM

okay I think I have ascertained what is causing the sunken look. Because my body fat was already very low when I began taking tretinoin and tretinoin causes a 'defatting' of the dermis for the first couple months of use it probably contributed to this exaggerated appearance I mentioned earlier. Mind you it is also worse when I have not sufficiently slept. What I am wondering now is when does the reverse of 'defatting' I.E thickening of the dermis begin? Around the 6 month mark? Does anyone know?

I want to once again stress that it is getting better. I just had to really be more cautious and being the sensitive skin type I am definitely prone to irritation more than average skin types.

Edited by TheFountain, 30 August 2009 - 02:08 PM.


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#34 immortali457

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 02:24 PM

okay I think I have ascertained what is causing the sunken look. Because my body fat was already very low when I began taking tretinoin and tretinoin causes a 'defatting' of the dermis for the first couple months of use it probably contributed to this exaggerated appearance I mentioned earlier. Mind you it is also worse when I have not sufficiently slept. What I am wondering now is when does the reverse of 'defatting' I.E thickening of the dermis begin? Around the 6 month mark? Does anyone know?

I want to once again stress that it is getting better. I just had to really be more cautious and being the sensitive skin type I am definitely prone to irritation more than average skin types.


Where have you read that it defats the skin the first couple of months?

#35 immortali457

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 03:11 PM

Quote from Fredrik: Retin-A thins the outer epidermis...the layer that is constantly shedding. Retin-A increases the shedding and cell turnover rate, thereby thinning the outer surface, but it thickens the dermis. This is a good thing indeed. As the inner layers swell outward, the outer layers are slightly stretched which reduces wrinkles.

I've read this on numerous occasions.

Edited by immortali457, 30 August 2009 - 03:11 PM.


#36 TheFountain

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 01:07 PM

okay I think I have ascertained what is causing the sunken look. Because my body fat was already very low when I began taking tretinoin and tretinoin causes a 'defatting' of the dermis for the first couple months of use it probably contributed to this exaggerated appearance I mentioned earlier. Mind you it is also worse when I have not sufficiently slept. What I am wondering now is when does the reverse of 'defatting' I.E thickening of the dermis begin? Around the 6 month mark? Does anyone know?

I want to once again stress that it is getting better. I just had to really be more cautious and being the sensitive skin type I am definitely prone to irritation more than average skin types.


Where have you read that it defats the skin the first couple of months?


On this forum actually. I just don't remember where. Well i've read that it causes defatting but not for a couple months.

#37 TheFountain

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Posted 14 September 2009 - 07:08 AM

Hi TheFountain,


Your regimen looks good to me, although I might suggest a more gentle cleanser than your glycerin soap. Eucerin for Sensitive Skin "Gentle Hydrating Cleanser" comes to mind; it is very basic and unscented, also budget friendly. Any of the Avene cleansers that suit your skintype would be a good option as well.

For sunscreen, especially if your skin is irritated, I would suggest you look into Glycolix Elite spf30. Very soothing as well as protective:

Active ingredient Zinc Oxide 17%. Also contains Purified Water, C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, Cyclomethicone, Laurylmethicone Copolyol C13-14, Isoparrafin, Polyacrylamide, Cersin,Dimethicone,Green Tea Extract, Phospholipids, Ascorbyl Palmitate, Coenzyme Q-10, Ascorbyl Glucosamine, Superoxide Dismutase, Laureth-7, Sodium Cloride, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, Diazolidnyl Urea.

I've tried your Nivea Sun light feeling spf50 and found it much too emollient for my skin. I also couldn't handle the heavy fragrance.

Unless your Dermatologist recommends otherwise, I would say stay the course and ride out the ugliness and discomfort. My two (2) cents, of course.

Thank you for your kind words ~ Sincerely, MK


Mia, I have one more question for you. Do you know if using bare escentuals mineral foundation (spf15) while using tretinoin can cause increased irritation, redness or discoloration? I don't use it every day but there are some instances in which I HAVE TO use it. Be it for a job interview, social gathering or what have you. I just cannot show my beet red tretinoin treated face as it is in such instances. Also do you sleep with sunblock on? I'm curious because I use to but then asked myself why. My windows are 98% sealed and what little light emits through the tiny openings is not direct sunlight. So I figured it was a paranoid move.

By the way the kind of tretinoin I am currently using is johnson and johnson 0.025%

Edited by TheFountain, 14 September 2009 - 07:53 AM.


#38 zsuzsanna

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Posted 14 September 2009 - 10:39 AM

Fountain, you should never ever sleep with sunblock on!!

#39 TheFountain

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Posted 14 September 2009 - 10:47 AM

Fountain, you should never ever sleep with sunblock on!!


Can you explain this statement please?

Here's the thing, I would sleep with it on when I feared the light coming in the window in the morning since, when I was going to school in the evenings, I would generally sleep till around 2 pm. Then I blocked my window. I don't know if it is a valid concern but I still would like you to explain why it is a bad idea to sleep with sunblock on.

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#40 Luna

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Posted 14 September 2009 - 11:24 AM

Your skin needs to breath, it's like people don't sleep with make up, you wake up looking UGLY!!! and it can take days to get back to normal.

#41 miklu

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Posted 14 September 2009 - 05:49 PM

Your skin needs to breath, it's like people don't sleep with make up, you wake up looking UGLY!!! and it can take days to get back to normal.


According to Dr. Schultz, this is a myth. What meaningful difference could there be between sleeping with makeup and being awake with makeup (unless you tend to rub your face into the pillow, which can in theory cause clogged pores)?

Sure, it might be better to let the skin breath, but it seems unlikely that recovery from sleeping with makeup could take days.

#42 dehbleh

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Posted 25 September 2009 - 11:28 AM

To the thread owner... honestly, I had the same problem as you.

Three things fixed it.

* Vitamin D normalisation. I became deficient through strict sun avoidance because retinoids cause sun sensitivity. Depression became a thing of the past when I got my levels up to 50ng/ml

* Break from Retinoids. This reduced inflammation and allowed me to actually go outside.

* Using Copper Peptides. They stimulate collagen and have a whole host of other benefits without the harsh sun-sensitivity of Retinoids. I feel they work better, been using them for over 3 years now. Got mine from the Skin Biology website.


I'm not going to say much more other than this. Hindsight is a bitch, I only wish someone had given me this same advice 5 years ago!

#43 TheFountain

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Posted 25 September 2009 - 04:33 PM

To the thread owner... honestly, I had the same problem as you.

Three things fixed it.

* Vitamin D normalisation. I became deficient through strict sun avoidance because retinoids cause sun sensitivity. Depression became a thing of the past when I got my levels up to 50ng/ml

* Break from Retinoids. This reduced inflammation and allowed me to actually go outside.

* Using Copper Peptides. They stimulate collagen and have a whole host of other benefits without the harsh sun-sensitivity of Retinoids. I feel they work better, been using them for over 3 years now. Got mine from the Skin Biology website.


I'm not going to say much more other than this. Hindsight is a bitch, I only wish someone had given me this same advice 5 years ago!


How much Vitamin D do you take daily? I take about 3000 IUs and am extremely hesitant to go outside when it is sunny out. But according to Eva and other's this is a good approach to avoiding photodamage. I really have been considering trying a copper peptide in conjunction with the retinoid but am I to understand you completely stopped using tretinoin altogether and opted for CP instead? The other thing I am wondering is what formula of CP are people with success using? Some skin biology formulas contain the older version of CP (GHK) while some contain SRCP? Which is more effective? GHK has the most studies behind it but does this really mean it is most effective? My other other concern is that I read CP can cause wrinkling in younger people like me and that it should only be used on aged skin.

Edited by TheFountain, 25 September 2009 - 04:35 PM.


#44 kismet

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Posted 25 September 2009 - 05:00 PM

* Using Copper Peptides. They stimulate collagen and have a whole host of other benefits without the harsh sun-sensitivity of Retinoids. I feel they work better, been using them for over 3 years now. Got mine from the Skin Biology website.

Copper peptides certainly are interesting, but is there any evidence supporting their use in healthy, human volunteers? (There are of course, dozens of studies on retinoids in different populations). I know some people do not consider actual, randomised, controlled, trials to be superior to mere anecdotes so YMMV. Apparently there is at least some obscure research on copper peptides and wrinkling, but it's difficult to locate. :)

Edited by kismet, 25 September 2009 - 05:01 PM.


#45 TheFountain

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Posted 25 September 2009 - 05:23 PM

* Using Copper Peptides. They stimulate collagen and have a whole host of other benefits without the harsh sun-sensitivity of Retinoids. I feel they work better, been using them for over 3 years now. Got mine from the Skin Biology website.

Copper peptides certainly are interesting, but is there any evidence supporting their use in healthy, human volunteers? (There are of course, dozens of studies on retinoids in different populations). I know some people do not consider actual, randomised, controlled, trials to be superior to mere anecdotes so YMMV. Apparently there is at least some obscure research on copper peptides and wrinkling, but it's difficult to locate. :)


Note: I cannot seem to find the study cited in this article.

The undisputed father of copper peptides is Dr Loren Pickart, who founded Skin Biology, makers of the Folligen product for thinning hair and Super Cop 2X. Dr Pickart made the original discovery that the tripeptide GHK, a specific copper peptide, could “remodel” human tissue. He recently sent me an article of his that was published in the 2009 American Academy Of Anti-aging Medicine’ Anti-Aging Therapeutics Vol Xl. I now have a better understanding of how copper peptides work on wrinkles and thinning hair, brows and lashes. Copper is something that exists naturally in our tissues. Depletion of it has for a long time been correlated with many degenerative diseases (is that why my grandmother wore a copper bracelet to fend of rheumatic pain?). One of the main roles of copper is anti-inflammatory – it works by suppressing inflammatory cytokines – and there is a growing school of thought that increased inflammation brings about aging. According to Dr P, the processes that cause chronic inflammation as we age could be the same as those in wounds. There is a 60% drop in our bodies’ own GHK between the ages of 20 and 60.

The reason why Dr P insists on the GHK tripeptide is because the molecules are really small and can bind to receptors more easily than larger ones and it works like an intercellular pack mule, transporting copper into and from cells. Numerous studies have shown it helps the healing of all sorts of things from infected wounds to ulcers.

There have also been several studies on wrinkle repair. An independent 2002 study on 20 women showed that it increased collagen in 70% of those treated with GHK, compared to 50% for vitamin C and 40% for retinoic acid. I was particularly interested to read that combining GHK with red LED lights (get out those Baby Quasars) has been shown to increase collagen production by fibroblasts.

Copper’s ability to assist in hair growth was discovered when it was noticed that the hair follicles around treated wounds were exceptionally large. It seems to work on the follicle in two ways: increasing follicle cell proliferation increased follicle size; and copper also decreases programmed follicle cell death, which results in smaller follicles.

Why GHKs should be so important and successful is a question that takes us to barnacles – and other primitive forms of marine invertebrate. The theory is that GHK originated in the ancient (barnacles date back 400 million years) marine protective systems.

A round up of good copper peptide products will be coming soon.

http://www.zimbio.co...les hair growth

#46 TheFountain

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Posted 25 September 2009 - 05:28 PM

So in that study mentioned in the above article CP supposedly had a better collagen synthesis than Tretinoin. But I cannot find the study.. Anywhere

#47 Skötkonung

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Posted 25 September 2009 - 11:17 PM

This is the study:

The human tri-peptide GHK and tissue remodeling.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18644225

#48 TheFountain

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Posted 26 September 2009 - 12:04 AM

This is the study:

The human tri-peptide GHK and tissue remodeling.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18644225


Thanks, how did you find it?

Edit:

This just goes to show you what happens when you let someone else convince you that something will be too difficult to find so you don't even look in the most obvious places because you don't think it would be there.

*slaps kismet then slaps himself*

Edited by TheFountain, 26 September 2009 - 12:43 AM.


#49 dehbleh

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Posted 26 September 2009 - 05:01 AM

Really trying not to name brands or products but I think you could really use some help at this point. Being depressed is one thing, but being depressed and thinking your fugly is much worse. In my case, it was a combination of copper peptide and an exfoliator that proved remarkably effective. Trireduction & Exfol Cream.

I ended up using SCRP products. I've tried the original GHK but in my experience they are not as effective. I know the studies are not as numerous but for studies that have been done, significant efficacy has been shown. Hannah from SkinActives.com doesn't believe in them but has she ever tried them? No, she hasn't.

Just so you know I tried just about every topical active there was before stumbling upon copper peptides. Retinoids do work but many people suffer greatly with them. I was one of these people.

About SCRP's causing wrinkles in young people? Well over-using retinoids will do much worse in that area. Yes SCRP's can be overdone and you will look worse for a couple of days. At this point give your skin a break and you'll look even better within a couple of days. I have overdone them many times and after waiting 2-4 days my skin *always* looked better than when I started.

I'm in my early 20's and have been using them for over 3 years. If only there were before & after pics, truly amazing. Didn't initially believe they would work but was pleasantly surprised when they worked way beyond my expectations.

Regarding vitamin D. Everyone is different but I get my levels tested regularly and take 50,000 ui once a week. I sit around 50ng/ml mark. Sometimes going up to 60-70ng/ml in summer.


In essence, sometimes you just have to take a gamble and this usually comes at point of desperation. For me, SCRP's (and to a much lesser extent Retinoids) were a gamble that paid off well. Do what you will.

#50 kismet

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Posted 26 September 2009 - 01:04 PM

Well, it's just a review, (not the study in question) which states the same as the study I found (that studies in aged skin exist). However, I wasn't able to locate said studies yet and I fear I can't access either of those reviews/papers easily. But their reference list should be freely available & include said study. I'll try to dig it up later, if no one finds the paper(s).

The problem of before and after pics can be easily solved. Buy a camera, find an area that shows wrinkling and was not yet exposed to copper peptides (let's say... your hands?), take pictures now, later and even later. That's exactly what I've been planning to do for some time.

Edited by kismet, 26 September 2009 - 01:04 PM.


#51 S_89

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Posted 01 October 2018 - 04:18 PM

Hi!

 

This is almost 10 years later but the same has happened to me (something REALLY needs to be done about this).

 

I've read about others but nobody gives updates so I can't tell whether this will stay with me my whole life or not.

 

From my research, tretinoin can actually thin the subcutaneous fatty (adipose) tissue which is what gives the sunken look that I have also been stricken with (I look like a gargoyle and do not want to leave the house either).

 

Unfortunately, the damage is so close to the eyes that I won't be able to get a surgeon to fill there.

 

PLEASE tell me this completely resolved itself for you.

 

You mention things are "somewhat" better in one of your last posts. This gives me hope.

 

PLEASE let me know.

 

Kind regards,

Sarah



#52 Phoebus

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Posted 01 October 2018 - 10:04 PM

Hi!

 

This is almost 10 years later but the same has happened to me (something REALLY needs to be done about this).

 

I've read about others but nobody gives updates so I can't tell whether this will stay with me my whole life or not.

 

From my research, tretinoin can actually thin the subcutaneous fatty (adipose) tissue which is what gives the sunken look that I have also been stricken with (I look like a gargoyle and do not want to leave the house either).

 

Unfortunately, the damage is so close to the eyes that I won't be able to get a surgeon to fill there.

 

PLEASE tell me this completely resolved itself for you.

 

You mention things are "somewhat" better in one of your last posts. This gives me hope.

 

PLEASE let me know.

 

Kind regards,

Sarah

 

 

there are things you can do 

 

first off look into these butt enhancement creams. Sound weird I know but they contain a nutmeg extract called macelignan that is said to stimulate adipocytes. Some have had success using them for the hollowed out eye thing. 

 

there was a guy on youtube that had really really bad face condition. He applied a DIY hyaluronic acid cream to it like 10x a day and after a few months had dramatically turned around his face. Really impressive. HA will also stimulate adipocytes but it needs to be applied a lot in order to work. Most apply it once/day and declare it doesn't work. No, apply it continually. Add a bit of MSM to your DIY HA cream to increase penetration 

 

Also you should be on 500 mg/day of NR and/or NMN, really helps the skin out a lot. 

 

good luck, let us know if any of that works. 

 

EDIT: by the way, HA needs to be of a specific molecular weight to penetrate skin deeply, ~110,000 daltons to be exact. Here is some HA that is the correct molecular weight if anyone is interested 

 

http://www.lotioncra...-acid-elmw.html


Edited by Phoebus, 01 October 2018 - 10:43 PM.


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#53 Phoebus

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Posted 01 October 2018 - 11:46 PM

HA shown to stimulate adipose stem cells here 

 

of course you would need to get the HA deep into the tissue to make this happen and some say that doesn't occur but I think with the correct molecular weight and some MSM it is possible. 

 

using a derma roller then applying the HA might help also 

 

 

 

Hyaluronic acid effect on adipose-derived stem cells. Biological in vitro evaluation.
 
 

Abstract

 

OBJECTIVES:

To evaluate the in vitro effects of hyaluronic acid (HA) on adipose-derived stem cells (ASC) in order to consider the possibility of their combined used in the treatment of knee arthrosis.

 

MATERIAL AND METHODS:

The ASC cells were grown both in the presence and absence of AH, and several studies were carried out: proliferation (WST8) and cell viability studies (Alamar Blue® and Trypan Blue), possible chondrogenic differentiation (collagen type 2 expression) by RT-PCR, AH receptor expression (CD44) by flow cytometry and RT-QPCR, and expression of inflammatory and anti-inflammatory factors (IL-6, TGFß, IL-10) by RT-QPCR.

 

RESULTS:

The number ofadipose-derived stem cells  significantly increased after 7 days with HA (158±39%, p <0.05). Additionally, the cell viability of the ASC treated with HA after 1, 3, 5 and 7 days was similar to that of the control cells, being considered non-toxic. There were no changes observed in the expression of CD44 and chondrogenic differentiation. TGFß expression was not modified after AH treatment, but there was a 4-fold decrease in IL-6 expression and IL-10 expression increased up to 2-fold compared to control cells.

 

CONCLUSIONS:

Hyaluronic acid favours ASC proliferation without causing cellular toxicity, and inducing an anti-inflammatory profile in these cells. Hyaluronic acid appears to be a suitable vehicle for the intra-articular administration of mesenchymal stem cells.

 


Edited by Phoebus, 01 October 2018 - 11:48 PM.


#54 Phoebus

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 02:47 PM

well look at this. Seems the tea plant Tien-cha stimulate adipogensis

 

 

 

Rubus suavissimus S. Lee extract increases early adipogenesis in 3T3-L1 preadipocytes.
 
Abstract

 

Leaves of Rubus suavissimus S. Lee (Rosaceae) are used to prepare tiencha or sweet tea, which is helpful for body weight control by restricting calorie intake in obese patients. Obesity is a risk factor for metabolic syndrome, and a possible approach to treatment is to promote early adipogenesis in adipose tissue, thereby leading to replacement of enlarged adipocytes that secrete inflammatory factors with small adipocytes.We therefore investigated the effect of extract of tiencha leaves on early adipogenesis by using 3T3-L1 preadipocytes as a model. Tiencha extract significantly and concentration-dependently increased adipogenesis measured in terms of lipid accumulation by me

 

 

ans of Oil Red O assay and increased the expression of adiponectin and leptin. In the early phase of adipogenesis, tiencha extract increased the mRNA expression of adipogenic transcription factors CCAAT/enhancer binding protein α (C/EBPα) and proliferator-activated receptor γ (PPARγ). In contrast, mRNA expression of other adipogenic transcription factors, C/EBPδ and C/EBPβ, was unaffected. The mRNA expression levels of adipocyte-specific genes encoding adipocyte protein 2 (aP2), lipoprotein lipase (LPL), and glucose transporter 4 (Glut4), which are regulated by C/EBPα and PPARγ, were also increased. A PPARγ inhibitor, GW9662, partially inhibited the enhancing effect of tiencha extract on lipogenesis. These results suggest that tiencha extract enhances early adipogenesis by increasing the expression of adipogenic transcription factors C/EBPα and PPARγ.

 

 

you can buy tien-cha extract on amazon for.....$2,000!!

 

you can also get tien-cha tea leaves here 

 

https://www.svtea.co...ductinfo/H0116/

 

looks like it might be a wroth candidate for facial fat 

 

https://www.cosmetic...-371404291.html

 
Tiencha leaf extract was found to increase both the gene expression of PPARγ in preadipocytes and the differentiation of preadipocytes into small adipocytes (see Figure 7b-e).13 Consequently, tiencha leaf extract changed enlarged adipocyte-dominant sFAT into small adipocyte-dominant sFAT. It there-fore is suggested to decrease the negative influence of enlarged adipocytes and increase the positive influence of small adipocytes on the dermal layer. This, in turn, should lead to an improvement of sagging and thus an improvement in other aging-related features of facial morphology.

 


Edited by Phoebus, 02 October 2018 - 03:06 PM.


#55 S_89

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 07:06 PM

After 2 days of constant searching, this is the most helpful post I've had on the matter. Words cannot appreciate how thankful I am for that.

 

However, I've read conflicting reports about maclignan and some say it makes matters worse and so is used deviously by some butt enhancement companies to actually worse the fat present and make people buy more of the product.

 

If you have any concrete studies showing it stimulates adipocytes would be much appreciated.

 

Also by ~110,000 daltons, do you mean less than or equal to, I've never seen the ~ in that context before?

 

Thanks so much,
Sarah

 

 

 

there are things you can do 

 

first off look into these butt enhancement creams. Sound weird I know but they contain a nutmeg extract called macelignan that is said to stimulate adipocytes. Some have had success using them for the hollowed out eye thing. 

 

there was a guy on youtube that had really really bad face condition. He applied a DIY hyaluronic acid cream to it like 10x a day and after a few months had dramatically turned around his face. Really impressive. HA will also stimulate adipocytes but it needs to be applied a lot in order to work. Most apply it once/day and declare it doesn't work. No, apply it continually. Add a bit of MSM to your DIY HA cream to increase penetration 

 

Also you should be on 500 mg/day of NR and/or NMN, really helps the skin out a lot. 

 

good luck, let us know if any of that works. 

 

EDIT: by the way, HA needs to be of a specific molecular weight to penetrate skin deeply, ~110,000 daltons to be exact. Here is some HA that is the correct molecular weight if anyone is interested 

 

http://www.lotioncra...-acid-elmw.html

 



#56 S_89

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 07:10 PM

Also, I've never heard of daltons so i'm researching it but the articles seem to be saying that a lower molecular weight is necessary for penetation - i.e. lower than 500 daltons so please can you post links of otherwise?

 

The 500 Dalton Rule of Dermal Penetration and Cosmetic Science

#57 S_89

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 07:32 PM

The ONLY place I've found where you can buy HA of 110,000 daltons is the website you recommend and every other reference on the internet regarding this links to this article. *Sigh*

 

It is also not a secure website which I'm not a fan of buying anything from non-secure sites tbh.

 

Can you send me some articles or links or other stuff that show that HA of this nature is necessary so I know this is legel?

 

Many thanks

 

there are things you can do 

 

first off look into these butt enhancement creams. Sound weird I know but they contain a nutmeg extract called macelignan that is said to stimulate adipocytes. Some have had success using them for the hollowed out eye thing. 

 

there was a guy on youtube that had really really bad face condition. He applied a DIY hyaluronic acid cream to it like 10x a day and after a few months had dramatically turned around his face. Really impressive. HA will also stimulate adipocytes but it needs to be applied a lot in order to work. Most apply it once/day and declare it doesn't work. No, apply it continually. Add a bit of MSM to your DIY HA cream to increase penetration 

 

Also you should be on 500 mg/day of NR and/or NMN, really helps the skin out a lot. 

 

good luck, let us know if any of that works. 

 

EDIT: by the way, HA needs to be of a specific molecular weight to penetrate skin deeply, ~110,000 daltons to be exact. Here is some HA that is the correct molecular weight if anyone is interested 

 

http://www.lotioncra...-acid-elmw.html

 



#58 Phoebus

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 07:42 PM

 

Also, I've never heard of daltons so i'm researching it but the articles seem to be saying that a lower molecular weight is necessary for penetation - i.e. lower than 500 daltons so please can you post links of otherwise?

 

The 500 Dalton Rule of Dermal Penetration and Cosmetic Science

 

 

 

yes the super low Molec weight HA will penetrate but it can also be irritating which could lead to inflammtion which is not good. You could experiment with different molec weight and see which works best. If the super low Molec weight does not irritate, then maybe that is best for you.  

 

this is a really great article here on HA with solid science 

 

kDa is a dalton measurement. to convert kDa  to dalton just google for a calculator 

 

https://simpleskinca...-acid-for-skin/

 

 

 

  • This is one of the more thorough studies done on HA. It involved 66 female subjects between 30 and 60 years of age with clinical signs of wrinkles. They were asked to apply various molecular weights of 0.1% HA cream including 50130, 300, 800 and 2000 kDa. After one month they found that treatment with 130 kDa HA was the most effective, increasing skin elasticity by 20%. Both the 50 and 130 kDa group had significant improvement in wrinkle depth and skin roughness after 60 days. All the other molecular weights still improved elasticity and skin hydration, just less so than the two weights above (50, 130 kDa). For example, HMW HA (2,000 kDA) only increased hydration by 2.9%. (23)


#59 Phoebus

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 08:24 PM

 

Also, I've never heard of daltons so i'm researching it but the articles seem to be saying that a lower molecular weight is necessary for penetation - i.e. lower than 500 daltons so please can you post links of otherwise?

 

The 500 Dalton Rule of Dermal Penetration and Cosmetic Science

 

 

I actually cant find any HA for sale that is as low as 500 daltons, can you? 

 

this is the lowest i have found here

 

 

 

https://www.amazon.c...olecular weight


Edited by Phoebus, 02 October 2018 - 08:30 PM.


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#60 S_89

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 08:56 PM

I actually cant find any HA for sale that is as low as 500 daltons, can you? 

 

this is the lowest i have found here

 

 

 

https://www.amazon.c...olecular weight

 

Yes, I'm also struggling to find any websites to be honest that highlight the amount of daltons in their products.

 

The first link you sent me looks slightly sketchy to be honest - have you purchased anything from them? Do you know if it's legit?

 

However, I've been researching more on macelignan and most science actually says it supports adipogenesis (sorry about that), although it can be toxic for the heart. 

 

Thanks so much for the HA link. Your help is massively appreciated.






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