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About men wearing make up


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#31 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 05:24 PM

I am not going to argue with you over your own misconceptions. Obviously men think they have women figured out and vice versa. I can tell you from first hand experience that my generation of females is evolving to become increasingly attracted to guys who strike a balance between their masculine and feminine sides. The one sided masculine type is obsolete and not needed anymore. But continue trying to live in that outdated paradigm. You will awaken some day.


Can you do me a favor and start this same thread here:

M&M Lounge

They need to hear your enlightened opinions.
  • Good Point x 1

#32 immortali457

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 05:24 PM

Make-up is for sissy men

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#33 Shepard

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 05:50 PM

Can you do me a favor and start this same thread here:

M&M Lounge

They need to hear your enlightened opinions.


That's just mean.

#34 rwac

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 06:47 PM

Can you do me a favor and start this same thread here:

M&M Lounge

They need to hear your enlightened opinions.


Also very funny. I LOLed.

#35 niner

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 07:24 PM

Aw, c'mon you meanies! Hey, I think we should broaden the discussion to include guys who shave their legs and wear pantyhose. Y'all are stuck in your primitive 20th century ideas about what girls really go for. The really evolved girls appreciate a guy who's not afraid to go out in a four inch black patent pump.

#36 Shepard

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 07:38 PM

I really doubt it has anything to do with an evolution of attraction. If you've noticed that women are attracted to men that wear make-up (and are not millionaires, powerful, or Shepard), start by thinking about what personality traits that behavior selects for.

#37 ajnast4r

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 07:44 PM

I am not going to argue with you over your own misconceptions. Obviously men think they have women figured out and vice versa. I can tell you from first hand experience that my generation of females is evolving to become increasingly attracted to guys who strike a balance between their masculine and feminine sides. The one sided masculine type is obsolete and not needed anymore. But continue trying to live in that outdated paradigm. You will awaken some day.


dont make patronizing judgments on what type of person i am based on the fact that i dont think men should wear makeup... i would consider myself to be quite balanced as far as masculine/feminine goes. i agree that one-sided over masculinity is an obsolete archetype... but the balance between masculine and feminine is achieved by cultivating balanced personality traits like compassion and empathy, not by wearing makeup. you might as well start wearing thongs, skirts & high heels if that's the case.

its not about misconceptions its about truth... im not sure how old you are but please i challenge you go to any university and survey women about whether they find men that wear makeup to be a turn on or turn off.
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#38 TheFountain

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 08:01 PM

I am not going to argue with you over your own misconceptions. Obviously men think they have women figured out and vice versa. I can tell you from first hand experience that my generation of females is evolving to become increasingly attracted to guys who strike a balance between their masculine and feminine sides. The one sided masculine type is obsolete and not needed anymore. But continue trying to live in that outdated paradigm. You will awaken some day.


Can you do me a favor and start this same thread here:

M&M Lounge

They need to hear your enlightened opinions.


If you are concerned with them getting it you can bring it to them. Or invite them over here.

Edited by TheFountain, 04 September 2009 - 08:02 PM.


#39 Blue

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 08:13 PM

Some of the girls at work when we got into a discussion over cosmetics said that men using just simple things like moisturizing, exfoliating and using other skin cream products was too much for a man.

They don't know what they're talking about. If you sat them down in a room with a sample of guys, half of which took good care of their skin and half of which didn't, and you asked them to pick the cute ones, they would pick the ones who took care of their skin, all else being equal.


Agreed. The face is the most exposed (in most modern cultures) portion of our skin & the portion of the human anatomy that is identified with a person, accordingly people can make subtle, but significant, judgments about a person based on their facial skin. Clean, clear, even facial complexions result in a judgment of good health &, for the evolutionary psychologist, desirable breeding material. Blemishes - be they blockage & infection of the pores, hyper/hypopigmentation as the result of too much sun exposure, excessive redness r/t inflammation, scarification secondary to a disease process, &c - result in a judgment of ill-health & poor breeding stock. Good reasons to take care of your skin.

Thankfully, we have many tools to correct these deficiencies in facial skin & positively influence others' perception, the most crude but efficient among them: makeup. However, there is a distinct difference between utilizing makeup to obscure imperfections in facial skin & using makeup to augment the appearance of the face. The former results in the average person being unable to determine that the person has obscured that which adversely affects the perception of others; the latter is an overt use of the medium to draw the attention of others to their facial painting. One is corrective, the other gratuitous.

I would say that it depends on kind on the kind of imperfections for men. Scars that make you look tough is just a plus. So do not necessarily be afraid of acne scars (depending on their looks). Blemishes that look unhealthy is a minus.

#40 TheFountain

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 08:17 PM

dont make patronizing judgments on what type of person i am based on the fact that i dont think men should wear makeup...

How can I not make patronizing comments when responding to patronizing comments by someone who thinks he has the female gender completely figured out with regard to sexual attraction? I mean if you said that to me in person I would laugh at you.

i would consider myself to be quite balanced as far as masculine/feminine goes.

Then why worry about men wearing make up? You do realize men once wore make up and then stopped when the patriarchal epoch began (that is right, contrary to popular belief a quasi-matriarchal culture once dominated the earth before the dry, arid spell of the warming trend occured approximately 5000 BC).

i agree that one-sided over masculinity is an obsolete archetype... but the balance between masculine and feminine is achieved by cultivating balanced personality traits like compassion and empathy, not by wearing makeup.

Make up is a superficial adhesive element that has nothing at all to do with personality traits. Whether or not I am an introvert or extrovert does not influence whether or not I wear make up. Whether or not I have social anxiety does not influence it either. Outside influences may indeed have something to do with it, but these are not inherent self reflective traits but external influences that must be eliminated or dealt with. Some people seem to think that there is no outside influence involved in being a muscular male archetype, that the male archetype exists in a metaphorical vacuum irrespective of outside influence. A shame what bullshit this is.

you might as well start wearing thongs, skirts & high heels if that's the case.

Who am I to judge?
Posted Image


its not about misconceptions its about truth...


The truth is too complicated for you or I alone to be its sole bearer.

im not sure how old you are but please i challenge you go to any university and survey women about whether they find men that wear makeup to be a turn on or turn off.

How about go to myspace and ask any 15-20 year old 'scene' or 'emo girl' what she finds attractive. And I am 24. When I wear make up and do my hair up I attract plenty of these types. This is what a 'scene girl' looks like typically.

Posted Image

I think society intimidates females as they get older, into being 'attracted' to assholes. Whenever I am alone with any of my female friends, or friends of my girlfriend they admit to me how miserable they are with the average assholes they date. Then I help them do the right thing, I.E break up with the assholes and decondition themselves to dating them ever again. It isn't always succesful but it often is.

#41 VespeneGas

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 08:39 PM

I'm surprised to be on the opposite side of the fence as some of my favorite imminst posters on this one!

Gender norms are plastic and historically contingent. It is culturally arbitrary how each gender typically presents itself to attract members of the opposite sex. While a hypermasculine presentation (highly muscular, blue jeans, 5-o'clock shadow, square jaw, swagger, etc) still appeals to a significant fraction of the western female population, it is shunned by a significant percentage of these same populations. Evidence of this is everywhere to be observed, from the rise of geek-chic to the sexualization of petite, long-haired, made up goths/punks/emos/scenesters/hipsters.

As shephard put it, attraction is too complex for absolute statements, and we betray our cultural prejudices when we try to bring biology (e.g. high testosterone = more confidence = don't need makeup) into evaluation of social modes of self-presentation. Personality traits like confidence, aggressiveness, timidity, extroversion, etc are clearly heterogeneously distributed within each sex, to the degree that there are hypermasculine women who work out, train martial arts, and could kick my ass, and hyperfeminine males who wear makeup, behave coyly, play hard-to-get, avoid conflict and concede arguments immediately, etc. and are generally way more feminine than my girlfriend (a balanced type).

I really don't think makeup or any other aspect of self-presentation is an ethical issue, but rather purely aesthetic and subject to personal preference. Just because I find makeup distasteful on guys doesn't mean it's wrong. I hope the individual saying "make-up is for sissy men" was being sarcastic, because otherwise it just comes across frankly hateful and homophobic.

#42 Blue

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 08:52 PM

Whenever I am alone with any of my female friends, or friends of my girlfriend they admit to me how miserable they are with the average assholes they date.

Please, spare me hypocrisy.

#43 TheFountain

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 09:30 PM

there are hypermasculine women who work out, train martial arts, and could kick my ass, and hyperfeminine males who wear makeup, behave coyly, play hard-to-get, avoid conflict and concede arguments immediately, etc. and are generally way more feminine than my girlfriend (a balanced type).

The problem with your approach is that you are making specific black and white traits out to be masculine or feminine. Conceding arguments is a feminine trait? Where the hell is this the case? Where is it written in the stone of bioloogical evidence that this is a feminine trait? American culture? Other cultures where women are brutally beaten if they argue with their husbands? Conditioning is not to be confused with gender traits!

Women do not 'easily concede' arguments and if they do they are not women, they are weak minded individuals, and there are both males and females who are just that. I don't know where people who think that 'conceding arguments' is a feminine trait come from, but where I am none of my female friends concede anything and I do not perceive them as masculine or feminine for it, I perceive them as strong willed humans. I think there is a degree of indirect misogyny going on here when people perceive shit like this.

Edited by TheFountain, 04 September 2009 - 09:34 PM.


#44 VespeneGas

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 11:09 PM

there are hypermasculine women who work out, train martial arts, and could kick my ass, and hyperfeminine males who wear makeup, behave coyly, play hard-to-get, avoid conflict and concede arguments immediately, etc. and are generally way more feminine than my girlfriend (a balanced type).

The problem with your approach is that you are making specific black and white traits out to be masculine or feminine. Conceding arguments is a feminine trait? Where the hell is this the case? Where is it written in the stone of bioloogical evidence that this is a feminine trait? American culture? Other cultures where women are brutally beaten if they argue with their husbands? Conditioning is not to be confused with gender traits!

Women do not 'easily concede' arguments and if they do they are not women, they are weak minded individuals, and there are both males and females who are just that. I don't know where people who think that 'conceding arguments' is a feminine trait come from, but where I am none of my female friends concede anything and I do not perceive them as masculine or feminine for it, I perceive them as strong willed humans. I think there is a degree of indirect misogyny going on here when people perceive shit like this.


Not surprisingly, you've completely misunderstood me. For this discussion to work, I'll make the distinction now, sex = biologically male or female, gender = culturally constructed male or female. Please do not confuse the two.

I don't think there's any such thing as an inherent gender trait, because genders (i.e. the collection of presentations and behaviors that are expected of members of a given gender group) are socially constructed and historically contingent, varying from time to time and region to region. However, in modern (i.e. last several hundred years) western (europe and the united states) culture, masculinity is identified with confident, aggressive, strong, powerful, unemotional, calculating, reasoning paternalistic behavior, and femininity is identified with neurotic, weak, emotional, irrational, sweet, nurturing, maternal, yielding behavior. These characterizations no more accurately reflect the 'true' nature of each sex's temperament than any other set of cultural norms, and I agree that they're misogynistic (as is western society). Obviously, these are oversimplifications, merely classic modes of gender which are subject to constant changing and shifting. The fact remains that women who maintain professional jobs, partake in contact sports, argue passionately for their beliefs, dress in business suits, etc are identified as masculine women, bitches, etc for breaking out of the straight jackets of their socially prescribed gender roles. Men who spend a lot of time on their appearance, fail to maintain significant muscle mass, perform poorly at sports, work in nurturing roles (e.g. daycare, nursing), concede arguments to their spouses, cry during plays or films, etc are identified as pussies, sissies, girly-men, etc for breaking THEIR gender roles.

Given that these attributes are distributed with tremendous heterogeneity within each sex, these norms are clearly oppressive to members of both sex who, either through nature or nurture, do not identify strongly with their socially prescribed roles. The degree to which gender roles are enforced through law or social coercion marks the degree of oppression, with certain radical islamic societies which mandate complete covering of the female body and denying girls access to schools being the extreme.

I respect anyone who can defend their position intelligently. However, in my experience (did speech and debate for 6 years, then coached it) when a woman in a debate round pursues her point aggressively, the judge (an average american) almost invariably finds her distasteful, but if a man pursues the same line of cross-examination with equal aggression, he's perceived as persuasive and skilled. This is true whether the judge is male or female, and depends primarily on level of education, but the sad fact remains that women who argue passionately are shunned in our society as inappropriately masculine or 'bitchy'.

#45 Skötkonung

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 11:43 PM

I don't have any problem with men or women wearing makeup. In my mind, wearing makeup is a form of body modification and subsequently self expression. If it makes you feel more comfortable to wear makeup, then that is perfectly fine with me. I would personally not choose to wear makeup, but I also choose to not have tattoos or piercings. I prefer the more natural look, both for myself and for those to whom I am attracted. The primary modification I do to myself is lift weights.

As for what is most attractive or acceptable..well obviously in American culture it is still largely taboo for most men to wear makeup. I would probably get fired if I came into the office wearing a lot make up as it is still "not professional." Some women are into that type of look, just as there are women who like piercings and tattoos, but by far, most American women prefer men without makeup. Just look at your typical American male celebrity that girl's faun over -- not many wear makeup. There are some notable occasions such as if the makeup forms a intrinsic part of your persona and that persona has made you famous (like Dave Navarro), but these are not very common.

I agree with the TheFountain in that I believe our culture is changing to accept men wearing makeup, however we still have a very long ways to go before that becomes mainstream. Right now it is limited to small niches and enclaves of people. And that's okay.

Oregon, eh? Are you based out of Portland? That's where I'm living at the moment.

Edited by Skotkonung, 04 September 2009 - 11:45 PM.


#46 Blue

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 11:54 PM

Like it or not testosterone is clearly associated with dominant behavior. Looking at body language during human successful courtship, males display their dominance, females their submissiveness. As do other species. Dominance is manly, submissiveness is feminine. Not going to change.

Now, as VespeneGas says, unfortunately this association tends to spill over to inappropriate situations such as judging intelligence or various skills unrelated to mating. Which leaves females in a difficult situation. If they try to be more dominant, they are seen as more unattractive. If they try to be less dominant, they are seen as more incompetent. Bitchy boss or braindead bimbo.

Edited by Blue, 04 September 2009 - 11:55 PM.


#47 VespeneGas

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Posted 05 September 2009 - 12:24 AM

Like it or not testosterone is clearly associated with dominant behavior. Looking at body language during human successful courtship, males display their dominance, females their submissiveness. As do other species. Dominance is manly, submissiveness is feminine. Not going to change.


While true on a general level, this rule belies the immense variability both in testosterone levels and in the dominant phenotype within the human species. For example, a woman with high testosterone for a female might exhibit more dominant behavior than a male with higher testosterone levels, which are nonetheless low for a male. The issue is further complicated by correlations between high DHT, body hair, and homosexuality:

A role for 5alpha-reductase activity in the development of male homosexuality?
Alias AG. Chester Mental health Center, PO Box 31, Chester, IL 62233, USA. aliasag@yahoo.com

Higher body hair with lower mesmorphism ratings were observed in Caucasian homosexual men compared with the general male population, reflecting elevated 5alpha-reductase (5alphaR) activity, and higher dihydrotestosterone-to-testosterone (DHT-to-T) ratio, in sharp contrast to 46,XY 5alphaR 2 deficiency subjects, who are often born with ambiguous, or female genitalia, but tend to grow up to be muscular, heterosexual men with very little body hair, or beard. One study also showed them scoring around dull normal IQs. A greater prevalence of liberal body hair growth in men with higher IQs and/or educational levels was also observed in several samples. The exceptions to this statistical trend are too unsettling, however. Nevertheless, the results of a number of published studies, including one showing higher DHT-to-T ratio in homosexual men, done with different objectives over a span of 80 years, together strongly support these findings. Furthermore, in an animal model, "cognitive-enhancing effects" of "5alpha-reduced androgen [metabolites]" were recently demonstrated.

PMID: 15677419 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE


How can high DHT levels in gay men be reconciled with the testosterone = dominant equation? Isn't hairyness a core part of the masculine phenotype? Aren't gay men traditionally regarded as feminine? And while on the subject of homosexuality, how do standards of masculinity and femininity apply here? Surely you won't contend that homosexuality doesn't exist in the animal kingdom, or that the homosexual phenotype bucks the classic roles of gender behavior. A natural deviation from the natural paradigm? Really just more evidence that no hard-and-fast rule exists regarding sex and personal identity outside of cultural construction.

When it's obvious that there are highly 'feminine' males and highly 'masculine' females throughout tolerant societies, aren't biological arguments really just reaching to justify established rules for gender behavior?

#48 VespeneGas

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Posted 05 September 2009 - 12:25 AM

Oregon, eh? Are you based out of Portland? That's where I'm living at the moment.


I'm actually in Ashland, but a significant majority of my friend pool resides in Portland. I'm probably transferring to PSU next year, they have an excellent biology department :)

Edited by VespeneGas, 05 September 2009 - 12:26 AM.


#49 niner

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Posted 05 September 2009 - 12:40 AM

"The exceptions to this statistical trend are too unsettling" .... huh?

#50 TheFountain

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Posted 05 September 2009 - 01:00 AM

Like it or not testosterone is clearly associated with dominant behavior. Looking at body language during human successful courtship, males display their dominance, females their submissiveness. As do other species. Dominance is manly, submissiveness is feminine. Not going to change.

I've watched national geographic too. You know what I get out of it? A bunch of unsuitable words that attempt, but ultimately fail to describe the undescribable.

Ever heard of dominatrixes? Ask yourself why so many men in modern society wish to pay for their services? The point is this overblown divide between sexual characteristics people like you wish was the case, simply isn't. I cannot tell you how many times the woman is the aggressor in my relationship. And I like it. Does that make us gender dysphoric? Or does it make you uncertain of what you are talking about?

Seriously we need to start differentiating between those sexual characteristics which are natural to the male and female gender and those which are overblown results of generations of social conditioning. Even when you look at apes in the wild the female is sometimes the aggressor no less than the male!

#51 niner

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Posted 05 September 2009 - 01:48 AM

Parents who have raised both genders of children usually get a pretty good sense of what is the child's inherent nature versus social conditioning. I think you are making too big of a deal out of social conditioning, and not enough of people's inherent gender-based nature. It's a real phenomenon. None of these things apply to 100% of people. The majority of men are mannish, and the majority of women are womanish. Sure, there are plenty of people who don't fit these profiles. People can be all over the map. Lots are, but don't fool yourself; most are not. "Most" means a majority. "Lots" in this case is a significant minority. Our nature is not evolving significanctly, but society's acceptance of non-traditional gender roles, couples, families, etc is changing pretty fast, as these things go.

#52 TheFountain

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Posted 05 September 2009 - 03:00 AM

Parents who have raised both genders of children usually get a pretty good sense of what is the child's inherent nature versus social conditioning. I think you are making too big of a deal out of social conditioning, and not enough of people's inherent gender-based nature. It's a real phenomenon. None of these things apply to 100% of people. The majority of men are mannish, and the majority of women are womanish. Sure, there are plenty of people who don't fit these profiles. People can be all over the map. Lots are, but don't fool yourself; most are not. "Most" means a majority. "Lots" in this case is a significant minority. Our nature is not evolving significanctly, but society's acceptance of non-traditional gender roles, couples, families, etc is changing pretty fast, as these things go.


I think you are confusing weak minded conditioning with 'gender based' qualities. Most people who embody these stereotypes also have several indications of weak mindedness and a readiness to be effected by all sorts of media based influences. This 'majority' you speak of also supported idiot Bush when it came time to invade Iraq regardless of the botched intelligence that made no sense at all. All you basically just said is that some people are intelligent but most are stupid (which I agree with). The former tend to be the ones who transcend these exaggerated forms of 'gender based' behaviour. The other's are basically sheep led by the shepherd of the media. In the end what is there to discuss of these types? They're boring. Let's discuss the interesting, intelligent people.

Edited by TheFountain, 05 September 2009 - 03:05 AM.


#53 niner

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Posted 05 September 2009 - 03:12 AM

Parents who have raised both genders of children usually get a pretty good sense of what is the child's inherent nature versus social conditioning. I think you are making too big of a deal out of social conditioning, and not enough of people's inherent gender-based nature. It's a real phenomenon. None of these things apply to 100% of people. The majority of men are mannish, and the majority of women are womanish. Sure, there are plenty of people who don't fit these profiles. People can be all over the map. Lots are, but don't fool yourself; most are not. "Most" means a majority. "Lots" in this case is a significant minority. Our nature is not evolving significanctly, but society's acceptance of non-traditional gender roles, couples, families, etc is changing pretty fast, as these things go.

I think you are confusing weak minded conditioning with 'gender based' qualities. Most people who embody these stereotypes also have several indications of weak mindedness and a readiness to be effected by all sorts of media based influences. This 'majority' you speak of also supported idiot Bush when it came time to invade Iraq regardless of the botched intelligence that made no sense at all. All you basically just said is that some people are intelligent but most are stupid (which I agree with). The former tend to be the ones who transcend these exaggerated forms of 'gender based' behaviour. The other's are basically sheep led by the shepherd of the media. In the end what is there to discuss of these types? They're boring. Let's discuss the interesting, intelligent people.

So are you saying that people whose inate behavioral tendencies are typical of their gender are stupid? I don't think so. I don't think intelligence has anything to do with it. Probably something more along the lines of hormonal environment during fetal development. We'll probably have to agree to disagree on this, but I have to say, I'm attracted to some of your threads like a moth to a flame. You are the Jerry Springer of ImmInst. And I mean that as a (perhaps twisted) compliment.

#54 VidX

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Posted 05 September 2009 - 02:09 PM

I wouldn't give a second thought if I'd see a guy with m-up, as there were times in history where m-up for men was more common then for woman, and other accesories, like wigs, history tends to go in cycles lol.. Anyway, maybe that's because it's kinda difficult to impress/shock me with something, it's XXI century afterall. I actually used a powder a few times to mask bruises on my face from..well let's say I didn't like a few zits anda decided to get rid of them. It worked out very well.. My gf suggested me to do that as I attended in a meeting, and I was like "What the hell, it shouldn't look worse then these red blemishes".. There were a few other occasions where I needed to participate in a video shooting, and genereally everybody were prepared with a make-up by a pro make up artist. That was kinda nice too, it was interesting how it makes a difference on camera. What wasn't nice - I walked with highlighted eyebrows for a day after that once, as she used some kind of hard to wash material lol..

Edited by VidX, 05 September 2009 - 02:11 PM.


#55 immortali457

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Posted 05 September 2009 - 11:12 PM

Parents who have raised both genders of children usually get a pretty good sense of what is the child's inherent nature versus social conditioning. I think you are making too big of a deal out of social conditioning, and not enough of people's inherent gender-based nature. It's a real phenomenon. None of these things apply to 100% of people. The majority of men are mannish, and the majority of women are womanish. Sure, there are plenty of people who don't fit these profiles. People can be all over the map. Lots are, but don't fool yourself; most are not. "Most" means a majority. "Lots" in this case is a significant minority. Our nature is not evolving significanctly, but society's acceptance of non-traditional gender roles, couples, families, etc is changing pretty fast, as these things go.

I think you are confusing weak minded conditioning with 'gender based' qualities. Most people who embody these stereotypes also have several indications of weak mindedness and a readiness to be effected by all sorts of media based influences. This 'majority' you speak of also supported idiot Bush when it came time to invade Iraq regardless of the botched intelligence that made no sense at all. All you basically just said is that some people are intelligent but most are stupid (which I agree with). The former tend to be the ones who transcend these exaggerated forms of 'gender based' behaviour. The other's are basically sheep led by the shepherd of the media. In the end what is there to discuss of these types? They're boring. Let's discuss the interesting, intelligent people.

So are you saying that people whose inate behavioral tendencies are typical of their gender are stupid? I don't think so. I don't think intelligence has anything to do with it. Probably something more along the lines of hormonal environment during fetal development. We'll probably have to agree to disagree on this, but I have to say, I'm attracted to some of your threads like a moth to a flame. You are the Jerry Springer of ImmInst. And I mean that as a (perhaps twisted) compliment.


Fountain...Fountain...Fountain.....lol

#56 Ben

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 03:27 AM

For the sake of proper argument, I think we need to divide makeup as such:

  • Concealing; and,
  • Enhancing.
I'll admit to wearing the first. The places I go are very competitive, and every edge becomes very important.

The second though, well, I can't see that as being anything less than a feminiser. Though, not that there is anything wrong with that. Attraction is, as people have said, complicated. I strongly believe though, that the majority of heterosexual women, like most men, are looking for something sexually highly dissimilar to themselves.

(edited by Matthias: at the request of Ben)

Edited by Matthias, 06 September 2009 - 11:42 AM.


#57 Luna

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 04:23 PM

In my experience.. women care more about their outer appearance while men usually care more about what they claim to be their "physical effectiveness"..
I find the "physical effectiveness" quite funny, I don't see how it helps them :D

And then there are those guys who don't care about either and just care about how their time is spent and what they enjoy of.

There are a lot of those girls too :) but most of I know still take a moment for nicer cloths or some make up.

I found that more and more guys seem to be taking much longer times preparing before going out.
Choosing a suit properly or shaving in some neat style.. some guys I know might even take more time getting ready than most girls I know!
Yes, make up can be applied in less than 30 minutes (and 10!) and cloths can be chosen in about the same time :)

Looking back in cultures (maybe) and movies, it seems like the woman needs to look good to be taken as wife and the man needs to achieve something, accomplish some feat or status, to be worthy for a husband.

I also find it weird that the word "chosen" for women and "worthy" for men were found more fitting.. but in reality, I do feel that sometimes the status and abilities in men seem to worth more than the men himself for many women.

The more the woman is intelligent and successful, and seems that also beautiful - the more the man seems to be in higher position and capability (money, status)
the more the woman is accomplished, the harder it is for pretty much and men to "get her"

#58 Luna

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 04:49 PM

I find it funny how the word stereotypes keeps coming in those discussions.
Behavior doesn't arise due to stereotypes, stereotype definitions arise due to behavior.

So that means (*pokes TheFountain*) that imminst men are not afraid of being womanly, they are just acting the way they supposed to due to something more complex like hormones and neural structures..

Men are men, women are women, trust me saying I know women DO NOT want to cross the line over the men side when it comes to look.. I find it fitting that men do not want to cross the line to the women's side.

Btw, while many people do see hair as a feminine thing, as far as I know men, this is not the reason the cut it, most men I know for some reason inheritly don't want it to grow and I have no explanation for that, perhaps it's related to child psychology and social environment while growing, rather than thinking "it looks feminine"

While most women I know wouldn't cut their hair because they like their hair, not because they think it's manly to cut it.
But again, even those it is not the initial thought, it will come up.

So what I mean is, I think men act like men because they are men, not because they don't want to be girls.
And same goes for the other side.

#59 VidX

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 05:20 PM

I think cultural induced archetypes has little with an essence of a male and female in general.

#60 TheFountain

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 06:27 PM

I also find it weird that the word "chosen" for women and "worthy" for men were found more fitting.. but in reality, I do feel that sometimes the status and abilities in men seem to worth more than the men himself for many women.


It seems to be a big impersonal process, this thing we call courtship. Sometimes I wonder if the individuals involved are actually ever involved, or not just strung along like puppets by society. As you said, it is more the status of men that is sought after, the man being removed from the process himself, nowhere to be found. But I think it is the same in the reverse where her ability to apply make up, her tight ass, firm breasts, in other words her reproductive disposition, is what men seek in women, not the woman herself.

This is a sad turn of events when you consider the fact that it is merely an evolutionary mechanism that was played out centuries ago. So why are 'we' as a society still perpetuating a long dead paradigm? I say 'we' because, while very attractive if my girlfriend was not a specific person on the 'inside' there is absolutely no way I would be with her (mainly because she wouldn't be who she is, duh!). See with she and I from the get go there was an involvement from the inside-out. Not a mere physical attraction, although that did admittedly exist as well. But it wasn't the essence of the connection. The people who she and I are was/is.

We are sentient beings who refuse to be catalysts in some unconscious game. That is how we differ from so many people out there. How that applies to men wearing make up should be clearly evident when one considers 'gender role' and how, at least in my relationship, sometimes these roles are shaken up and that she and I both like to be shaken, we enjoy the feeling of reversing the poles. I think this is part of what we call evolution as well. But more importantly it is the fact that wearing make up itself is not a gender trait, we simply use that as a costume to remove ourselves from what the real differences are. I myself use it as a door to embrace these differences while at the same time the similarities.

Edited by TheFountain, 10 September 2009 - 06:32 PM.





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