77 replies to this topic

[Rickster]

Any ideas on how to stop or slow this much appreciated.

What’s happening:
- It’s been thinning very slowly since I was around 25.
- I’m now in my early fourties and hair loss is becoming very apparent at the temples and the top, and may be accelerating.
- Several other family members are bald. Dad was bald but it happened at a much younger age.
- I’ve always tried to eat healthy. I don’t eat red meat. I do eat chicken and fish.
- Supplements: omega3, vitamin D3, CoQ10, PB8 probiotics.
- I have dandruff and have been using Nizoral shampoo to control it since forever. It doesn’t itch if I regularly use Nizoral.

I’ve done my share of stupid things:
- I have been increasingly sleep deprived since I got a computer as a 20 year old.
- The last 3 years have been marked by traumatic events, constant stress and very little sleep.
- After reading an article about dandruff a couple of months ago, I’ve tried leaving Selsun blue shampoo on overnight. (am I dreaming or is my hair still smelling of it?)
- Few people think this is unhealthy, but I mention it anyway: this year I’ve had a laptop with wifi on my lap for 8+ hours daily.


Cause - Best suggestion so far:
- So far all doctors have asked about baldness in the family, looked from afar and concluded “hereditary hair loss”, without blood work or close looking.


Solution - Best suggestion so far:
- Minoxidil (Rogaine). But I’m hesitating. Theoretically it shouldn’t have any major side-effects. But I need this body to last indefinitely so I also consider the risk of very very long term side effects. It can influence the heart and misc heart problems run in my family. Also, it isn’t a permanent solution, I’d need to apply the product twice a day forever and the result would disappear if I’d stop.
- Finasteride (Proscar): I don’t want to try. A (very) small group has lasting side effects, I'd rather be bald then risk my long term health. it http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/

Edited by Rickster, 07 October 2009 - 12:00 AM.

[1kgcoffee]

Hmm.. well I've heard that dandruff shampoos can worsen hair loss, so many try stopping with that. Personally, I don't shampoo until the hair starts to smell. I believe the oil is necessary for maintaining a healthy scalp and hair.

With regards to the finasteride, that's really the best option. But you could instead try some 'natural' 5-AR inhibitors, like saw palmetto, pygeum, nettle root and beta sitosterol. You could also try bumping up your estrogen levels as it has somewhat of a protective effect.

[Skötkonung]

I hate to say this being an avid meat eater myself, but cut down on all meat and instead replace your protein sources with a fermented soy (tempeh) or sprouted soy (sprouted tofu) products.

Soy contains isoflavones. Isoflavones have been shown to reduce the conversion of free testosterone to DHT. DHT triggers and exacerbates androgenetic alopecia, the condition from which you are currently suffering.

Male pattern baldness is caused by a genetic sensitivity of hair follicles to DHT, which causes them to shrink when exposed to it. This shortens their lifespan and prevents them from producing hair normally. [source]

Study: Isoflavone supplements stimulated the production of serum equol and decreased the serum dihydrotestosterone levels in healthy male volunteers.

"All 28 volunteers completed the 3-month supplementation with isoflavone. No changes in the serum levels of estradiol and total testosterone were detected after 3-month supplementation. The serum levels of sex hormone-binding globulin significantly increased, and the serum levels of free testosterone and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) decreased significantly after 3-month supplementation."

Study: Soy protein isolates of varying isoflavone content exert minor effects on serum reproductive hormones in healthy young men.

"In conclusion, soy protein, regardless of isoflavone content, decreased DHT and DHT/testosterone with minor effects on other hormones, providing evidence for some effects of soy protein on hormones."

So either supplement isoflavones or start replacing meat and dairy with soy as your primary protein source.

Edited by Skotkonung, 07 October 2009 - 12:36 AM.

[JLL]

Like Skotkonung said, soy isoflavones reduce DHT, which is potentially useful. And indeed, soy isoflavones plus cayenne pepper grow hair in humans and mice. Although, this at least in part happens through an increase in dermal IGF-1 levels, which may not be a good thing.

Another thing you could try is flax lignans. If you really hate the taste of flax, then supplements are available, but the cheapest way is eating a few tablespoons of flax meal daily (preferably 1 tbsp twice daily with 12 hours in between).

Over a six-month period, 10 men, between the ages of 20 and 70 and in varying stages of AGA, consumed one 250 mg capsule of LinumLife EXTRA. Photographs were used to document hair loss conditions at the beginning of the study. At the end of the test period, eight men reported modest improvement of their hair loss condition, one reported much improvement and one subject reported no effect. Initial effects were noticed, on average, within one to two months of starting supplementation with flax lignans and no side effects were reported. Throughout the study, the daily number of hairs lost decreased and 50 percent of subjects noticed a decrease in oil secretion in their scalp. More noticeable improvements were noted in subjects with more severe conditions of AGA.

As for minoxidil, I think nizoral might be a better option. Less hassle, you can use it a couple of times a week, and some studies suggest ketoconazole is more effective than minoxidil.

Reducing inflammation might slow down the process, too. What is your diet like?

Edited by JLL, 07 October 2009 - 06:42 AM.

[Luna]

Maybe give rogaine and propecia a try? I remember another thread, I think ghostrider (spelling?) said propecia helped him and wasn't having any side effects.

I think they also said rogaine seems harmless.

Edit:
I just looked at the list and most of the side effects are sexual dysfunction related, the rest are depressed.

From my experience with men, sexual dysfunction leads to strong depressions and depression leads to memory problems, eating disorders, lack of motivation and can ever lead to a dream-like-state.

I think most of their symptoms might be mental symptoms of the few physical symptoms they might have.

Edited by Luna, 07 October 2009 - 08:04 AM.

[drmz]

Minoxidil seems safest to me. Generic Kirkland brand. Much cheaper then Rogaine.
I'm going to try Minoxidil, although i don't think i will manage to put this on my head every single day. Currently i'm in the phase of accepting that i'm gradually getting bald. It's thinner then it used to be at the moment but i really have no clue how long it will take before my crown reflects the sun back to the starts. 31 now. Will probably take another 5 years or so.

[nowayout]

Be careful with soy. It has estrogenic effects and can cause gynecomastia, weight gain, sexual dysfunction, etc. in susceptible males.

(And no, the Japanese do not eat large quantities of unfermented soy.)

[Dagon]

I started going bald around 21. It got pretty bad at about 25, so when I was 26 I invested in a hair system and for me, it has been the ULTIMATE solution, and the ONLY solution that I would consider.

I've tried the meds, including minox. It helps for a while but in the end loses the battle, so not a good long term solution.

As for fin, I wouldn't even go there. Don't want to mess with my hormones and grow man-boobs:)

This is how my hair system looks at the moment. I've been wearing systems for nearly 4 years now so if you need more info about them just ask:

http://www.boards.ie...mp;d=1252611397
http://www.boards.ie...mp;d=1252611404
http://www.boards.ie...mp;d=1252611409
http://www.boards.ie...mp;d=1252611414
http://www.boards.ie...mp;d=1252611419

Total maintenance for a hair system = 1 hour per week. Could be more though if you need to swim or do a lot of sports (I don't).

[Dagon]

By the way, I'm 29 and most people - especially younger people - think I'm about 22 to 24.

I take care of my skin too, but mainly I think it's the hair that gives a youthful look

[JLL]

Minoxidil is not a long-term solution (unless you're betting on the discovery of a new drug within 5 years), because it stimulates hair growth but does nothing to reduce DHT, 5-alpha-reductase and androgen receptors. So you'll be growing new hairs that eventually will be die just like the old ones.

[Ben]

- Minoxidil
- A topical anti-DHT agent if you would prefer not to take something systemic (get a shampoo with a much higher % of ketoconazole, you could perhaps find this on the internet. Otherwise, buy ketoconazole on its own and make your own or buy it as an anti fungal paste).
- Retin-A on the scalp
-Green tea extract may be helpful (see other posts on this board, someone posted a study to this). Make an alcohol based ointment with a cheap extract.
-Follow Skot's advice with the soy.

[miklu]

- Minoxidil (Rogaine). But I’m hesitating. Theoretically it shouldn’t have any major side-effects. But I need this body to last indefinitely so I also consider the risk of very very long term side effects. It can influence the heart and misc heart problems run in my family. Also, it isn’t a permanent solution, I’d need to apply the product twice a day forever and the result would disappear if I’d stop.

Think about it this way: you also need to wash your teeth twice a day to keep them for life.

(Seriously, the only way to cure androgenic alopecia without periodic treatments is to stop the production of testosterone, i.e., castration; at least until a way to permanently reprogram the androgen receptors at hair follicles is devised.)

If you live in the US, you might be interested in Samson MDF, which contains minoxidil, dutasteride (an improved form of finasteride) and flutamide in a proprietary vehicle. It's topical, so you shouldn't get the sexual side effects that finasteride may cause.

Edited by miklu, 08 October 2009 - 01:57 PM.

[hamishm00]

This worked for me:

1. Nisim Shampoo 1 x daily (2 rinses)
2. Nisim Extract 2 x daily
2. Minoxidil 5% (once a day, at night - half life of 24 hours means you probably don't have to apply it twice a day)
3. Saw Palmetto tablets (sporadically)

Nisim is highly effective DHT inhibitor, and it's a product that has only natural ingredients (although I appreciate that this distinction is only "feel good" really and not that scientific).

Topical finesteride, Nizoral shampoo as well consuming flax lignans are other things that will definitely help.

Edited by hamishm00, 08 October 2009 - 02:19 PM.

[nowayout]

If you live in the US, you might be interested in Samson MDF, which contains minoxidil, dutasteride (an improved form of finasteride) and flutamide in a proprietary vehicle. It's topical, so you shouldn't get the sexual side effects that finasteride may cause.

Stay away from it. Dutasteride has an even worse side effect profile than finasteride, and topical dutasteride is definitely absorbed systemically. On top of this, it has an extremely long half life - it takes of the order of six months for DHT to recover after stopping dutasteride, as opposed to about two weeks for finasteride, so if you have problems with it, it will take you a long time to even start recovering from it.

[Dagon]

Believe me guys, I've done a lot of research and have tried to battle hairloss, but it's a battle that will inevitably:
a) Strap you of your cash
b) Take up a lot of time and effort
c) Drive you absolutely insane (just go on over the hairlosshelp forums and you'll see all the desperation).

I'm saying this as a long term member of the hairlosshelp.com forums.

Shave it, or get a hair system. Job done, then you can move on from this horrible place... There is no hairloss regimen that gives serious, maintainable long term results without questionable side effects or hormonal effects. And it *does* impact your lifestyle a lot when your hair or scalp is constantly being treated with various greasy lotions and potions. And it effects your sex life/mood if you are taking a selection of shady pills. And it effects you even more emotionally when you realise, a few years down the line, that none of it made a damn bit if difference, and you can't fight genetics - you've got MPB, you're going bald, and no amount of pills or lifestyle changes can ultimately fix that (unless you are a female who has a different pattern of balding).

I'd prefer to spend my time eating well, treating my skin well and enjoying life with my HR solution:)

Edited by Dagon, 08 October 2009 - 05:37 PM.

[nowayout]

Believe me guys, I've done a lot of research and have tried to battle hairloss, but it's a battle that will inevitably:
a) Strap you of your cash
b) Take up a lot of time and effort
c) Drive you absolutely insane (just go on over the hairlosshelp forums and you'll see all the desperation).

I'm saying this as a long term member of the hairlosshelp.com forums.

Shave it, or get a hair system. Job done, then you can move on from this horrible place... There is no hairloss regimen that gives serious, maintainable long term results without questionable side effects or hormonal effects. And it *does* impact your lifestyle a lot when your hair or scalp is constantly being treated with various greasy lotions and potions. And it effects your sex life/mood if you are taking a selection of shady pills. And it effects you even more emotionally when you realise, a few years down the line, that none of it made a damn bit if difference, and you can't fight genetics - you've got MPB, you're going bald, and no amount of pills or lifestyle changes can ultimately fix that (unless you are a female who has a different pattern of balding).

I'd prefer to spend my time eating well, treating my skin well and enjoying life with my HR solution:)

Very true, Dagon!

[hamishm00]

I disagree.

I got amaziing results,

[TheFountain]

Believe me guys, I've done a lot of research and have tried to battle hairloss, but it's a battle that will inevitably:
a) Strap you of your cash
b) Take up a lot of time and effort
c) Drive you absolutely insane (just go on over the hairlosshelp forums and you'll see all the desperation).

I'm saying this as a long term member of the hairlosshelp.com forums.

Shave it, or get a hair system. Job done, then you can move on from this horrible place... There is no hairloss regimen that gives serious, maintainable long term results without questionable side effects or hormonal effects. And it *does* impact your lifestyle a lot when your hair or scalp is constantly being treated with various greasy lotions and potions. And it effects your sex life/mood if you are taking a selection of shady pills. And it effects you even more emotionally when you realise, a few years down the line, that none of it made a damn bit if difference, and you can't fight genetics - you've got MPB, you're going bald, and no amount of pills or lifestyle changes can ultimately fix that (unless you are a female who has a different pattern of balding).

I'd prefer to spend my time eating well, treating my skin well and enjoying life with my HR solution:)

You're wrong on all accounts. I have seen guys who took a combination of natural DHT inhibitors go from having very thin hair to very thick hair. You obviously were already bald when you attempted your solutions. The key is to do it when you notice thinning. Prevention is the key not reversal.

[Gerald W. Gaston]

Dagon was on the HairLossHelp forums while I was (2004-2008) and likely still hangs out there. Trust me we saw young men come in NW2 and leave NW6 in very short time. Some folks do have very aggressive AGA and nothing available today could save their hair. That said, if you can start earlier, and you are not one of those aforementioned folks, you can slow it down or even reverse a little hair loss (some lucky folks even reverse a lot). There are so many people on that forum and others like HLT, regrowth, hairsite, etc. that are totally obsessed with hair. They spend all their time and money on it. I know too well as I was one of them. I had a decent regimen before getting on those forums. It was the big 3 and worked fairly well for me. Soon I was trying Spiro, Fluridil, Flutamide, Roxithromycin, wounding, etc. The best thing I did was just go back to the big 3 and stop hanging out on hairloss forums.

Edited by frankbuzin, 10 October 2009 - 01:36 AM.

[TheFountain]

Dagon was on the HairLossHelp forums while I was (2004-2008) and likely still hangs out there. Trust me we saw young men come in NW2 and leave NW6 in very short time. Some folks do have very aggressive AGA and nothing available today could save their hair. That said, if you can start earlier, and you are not one of those aforementioned folks, you can slow it down or even reverse a little hair loss (some lucky folks even reverse a lot). There are so many people on that forum and others like HLT, regrowth, hairsite, etc. that are totally obsessed with hair. They spend all their time and money on it. I know too well as I was one of them. I had a decent regimen before getting on those forums. It was the big 3 and worked fairly well for me. Soon I was trying Spiro, Fluridil, Flutamide, Roxithromycin, wounding, etc. The best thing I did was just go back to the big 3 and stop hanging out on hairloss forums.

Acute Androgenetic alopecia is usually genetic and will begin to happen at the age of 25-30. We are talking about natural hair thinning that is caused by a combination of many things that we DO have the power to effectively deal with. I wasn't sure if the OP was a sufferer of acute AGA or not but saw that it it 'runs in the family' for him but from reading the posts I quickly got the perception that he didn't try any serious DHT inhibitors, including natural supplements, to deal with his problem. You sound as if you're trying to discourage people from trying. If this is a misunderstanding then I apologize but if what you're trying to do is help people then the best way is to explain to them that stress without results will lead to even more problems. Besides, most of them will not listen to you so your best bet is to suggest they try something proven, like DHT inhibitors.

Edited by TheFountain, 10 October 2009 - 06:13 AM.

[drmz]

Dagon was on the HairLossHelp forums while I was (2004-2008) and likely still hangs out there. Trust me we saw young men come in NW2 and leave NW6 in very short time. Some folks do have very aggressive AGA and nothing available today could save their hair. That said, if you can start earlier, and you are not one of those aforementioned folks, you can slow it down or even reverse a little hair loss (some lucky folks even reverse a lot). There are so many people on that forum and others like HLT, regrowth, hairsite, etc. that are totally obsessed with hair. They spend all their time and money on it. I know too well as I was one of them. I had a decent regimen before getting on those forums. It was the big 3 and worked fairly well for me. Soon I was trying Spiro, Fluridil, Flutamide, Roxithromycin, wounding, etc. The best thing I did was just go back to the big 3 and stop hanging out on hairloss forums.

Don't know you but it sounds like you did the best thing. The obession can get worse than the actual problem. Same goes for popping pills for health benefits,cognitive tweaking,weigth loss and many more.

[Gerald W. Gaston]

Dagon was on the HairLossHelp forums while I was (2004-2008) and likely still hangs out there. Trust me we saw young men come in NW2 and leave NW6 in very short time. Some folks do have very aggressive AGA and nothing available today could save their hair. That said, if you can start earlier, and you are not one of those aforementioned folks, you can slow it down or even reverse a little hair loss (some lucky folks even reverse a lot). There are so many people on that forum and others like HLT, regrowth, hairsite, etc. that are totally obsessed with hair. They spend all their time and money on it. I know too well as I was one of them. I had a decent regimen before getting on those forums. It was the big 3 and worked fairly well for me. Soon I was trying Spiro, Fluridil, Flutamide, Roxithromycin, wounding, etc. The best thing I did was just go back to the big 3 and stop hanging out on hairloss forums.

Don't know you but it sounds like you did the best thing. The obession can get worse than the actual problem. Same goes for popping pills for health benefits,cognitive tweaking,weigth loss and many more.

Yep, staying stressed out and obsessing over it definitely didn't help things. Do what you can about it and don't stress... I know easier said than done. A first-cousin of mine was NW5a in 12th grade. Today he shaves it and has the head shape for it to. Looks good. I don't have that cue ball head shape so I'm trying to keep mine as long as possible.

[frederickson]

to the experts, how well does ketoconazole (say nizoral shampoo) work with slowing hair loss?

i use this shampoo several times a week for control of seborrheic dermatitis but would be happy with any side benefits of hair loss prevention.

i have also read anecdotal accounts that inversion therapy (rushing blood/nutrients to the head, ultimately to the scalp?) may help slow the loss of hair.

[1kgcoffee]

What are some good online pharmacies if we wanted to try finasteride?

[hamishm00]

You're wrong on all accounts. I have seen guys who took a combination of natural DHT inhibitors go from having very thin hair to very thick hair. You obviously were already bald when you attempted your solutions. The key is to do it when you notice thinning. Prevention is the key not reversal.

I agree with you, Fountain, it's a slow battle and you have to rise to the challenge, take on board a daily anti-hairloss regimen and be consistent with its application. I've found that the slow decline in hair quality soon becomes a slow incline.

I also totally agree with the sentiment that it's best not to wash your hair, and that natural oils will maintain your scalp and your hair. Everything we know about hair loss indicates that hairloss is a result of a buildup of sebum and DHT. Topical applications and shampoos that strip the scalp of this buildup are successful in reversing hair thinning.

[nowayout]

I also totally agree with the sentiment that it's best not to wash your hair, and that natural oils will maintain your scalp and your hair. Everything we know about hair loss indicates that hairloss is a result of a buildup of sebum and DHT. Topical applications and shampoos that strip the scalp of this buildup are successful in reversing hair thinning.

This paragraph seems to contradict itself.

[tintinet]

I also totally agree with the sentiment that it's best not to wash your hair, and that natural oils will maintain your scalp and your hair. Everything we know about hair loss indicates that hairloss is a result of a buildup of sebum and DHT. Topical applications and shampoos that strip the scalp of this buildup are successful in reversing hair thinning.

This paragraph seems to contradict itself.

It's inaccurate anyway. Hairloss is mostly, in men, androgenetic. It's your genetic makeup that makes your hair follicles involute in the presence of DHT- not a build up of DHT itself. I don't know that sebum has any involvement in hairloss.

Edited by tintinet, 11 October 2009 - 06:07 PM.

[immortali457]

[TheFountain]

You're wrong on all accounts. I have seen guys who took a combination of natural DHT inhibitors go from having very thin hair to very thick hair. You obviously were already bald when you attempted your solutions. The key is to do it when you notice thinning. Prevention is the key not reversal.

I agree with you, Fountain, it's a slow battle and you have to rise to the challenge, take on board a daily anti-hairloss regimen and be consistent with its application. I've found that the slow decline in hair quality soon becomes a slow incline.

I also totally agree with the sentiment that it's best not to wash your hair, and that natural oils will maintain your scalp and your hair. Everything we know about hair loss indicates that hairloss is a result of a buildup of sebum and DHT. Topical applications and shampoos that strip the scalp of this buildup are successful in reversing hair thinning.

I think it is the chemicals in most shampoos and soaps that cause that layer of dryness to build up. That is why guys who are noticing their hair begin to thin out should use organic shampoo with natural ingredients. But more than this DHT inhibitors should be used regularly.

[TheFountain]

I also totally agree with the sentiment that it's best not to wash your hair, and that natural oils will maintain your scalp and your hair. Everything we know about hair loss indicates that hairloss is a result of a buildup of sebum and DHT. Topical applications and shampoos that strip the scalp of this buildup are successful in reversing hair thinning.

This paragraph seems to contradict itself.

It's inaccurate anyway. Hairloss is mostly, in men, androgenetic. It's your genetic makeup that makes your hair follicles involute in the presence of DHT- not a build up of DHT itself. I don't know that sebum has any involvement in hairloss.

So according to you these guys shouldn't even try? Does that mean that those who have the obesity gene in their families should just accept the inevitable and eat mcdonalds and junk food every day? People with the heart disease gene in their families should enjoy a pack of cigarettes daily and a six pack? Yea I don't quite get the logic of making an absolute statement with no conclusion.

The point of this statement is that so many conditions that are deemed genetically inevitable are dealt with and avoided by many people. Why then shouldn't this one, at least be slowed down by proper measures? You don't think diets conducive to low DHT levels will help younger men as they get older? If so please explain.

Furthermore why are you knitpicking the wording involved in DHT=accelerated hair loss? He said 'DHT build up' and you criticized it. Do you disagree that the presence of DHT has anything to do with hair loss or that taking DHT inhibitors does nothing to assuage it? If so then perhaps you can explain your scientific theory behind why DHT inhibitors would not work. As far as we know they do, along with other methods, but as prevention, not reversal of hairloss.