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Help! I'm going bald


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#31 nowayout

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 04:24 PM

You don't think diets conducive to low DHT levels will help younger men as they get older? If so please explain.


Because lowering DHT can give you erectile difficulties, low libido, and neurological symptoms as you get older.

#32 TheFountain

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 04:28 PM

You don't think diets conducive to low DHT levels will help younger men as they get older? If so please explain.


Because lowering DHT can give you erectile difficulties, low libido, and neurological symptoms as you get older.


We're talking about hair loss here. As long as you regulate testosterone while inhibiting DHT you should be okay.

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#33 Blue

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 04:31 PM

You don't think diets conducive to low DHT levels will help younger men as they get older? If so please explain.


Because lowering DHT can give you erectile difficulties, low libido, and neurological symptoms as you get older.

They do? No doubt there can be side effects but will they worse with time? Assuming testosterone is not affected or maybe even increased by DHT lowering.

Personally I would recommend growing a beard and shaving the scalp entirely. Will make you look tough. (Then you can worry about going gray instead.)

#34 nowayout

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 04:46 PM

We're talking about hair loss here. As long as you regulate testosterone while inhibiting DHT you should be okay.


DHT appears to have separate functions from testosterone in the body, most guys suffer at least mild side effects from sufficient suppression of DHT, and some guys experience permanent endocrine disruption, as you can see from propeciahelp.com. Also, DHT is a much stronger androgen than testosterone, so even assuming that you could compensate by increasing testosterone, you would have to increase testosterone a lot to make up for a little reduction in DHT. Furthermore, DHT inhibits the effects of estrogen, so you may have to take pills to regulate estrogen to compensate for reduction in DHT. Furthermore, 5AR, which is inhibited by drugs such as Saw Palmetto and finasteride, is not just involved in the testosterone-DHT pathway. It is also involved in several other hormonal pathways, which are all disrupted.

#35 TheFountain

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 05:05 PM

We're talking about hair loss here. As long as you regulate testosterone while inhibiting DHT you should be okay.


DHT appears to have separate functions from testosterone in the body, most guys suffer at least mild side effects from sufficient suppression of DHT, and some guys experience permanent endocrine disruption, as you can see from propeciahelp.com. Also, DHT is a much stronger androgen than testosterone, so even assuming that you could compensate by increasing testosterone, you would have to increase testosterone a lot to make up for a little reduction in DHT. Furthermore, DHT inhibits the effects of estrogen, so you may have to take pills to regulate estrogen to compensate for reduction in DHT. Furthermore, 5AR, which is inhibited by drugs such as Saw Palmetto and finasteride, is not just involved in the testosterone-DHT pathway. It is also involved in several other hormonal pathways, which are all disrupted.


I know it's a big fat chemistry experiment but if you're really willing to hit it where it needs to be hit then I see no problem experimenting. It is better to have tried than merely contemplating having done so. So mix and match till you find the right combination of supplements is my advice. For some it could take months or even years to get there, but to advance our condition we must experiment on ourselves.

#36 TheFountain

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 05:11 PM

viveutvivas I posted this on another thread earlier. It is this kind of information from existing studies that provide us a blueprint for our personal chemistry experiments.

'The carotenoid astaxanthin (AX) from Haematococcus pluvialis, *Saw Palmetto* berry lipid extract (SPLE) from Serenoa repens and the precise combination of these dietary supplements, Alphastat® (Mytosterone(trade mark)), have been reported to have inhibitory effects on both 5AR and AER in-vitro. Concomitant regulation of both enzymes in-vivo would cause DHT and ES blood levels to decrease and T levels to increase.'

'SEM. RESULTS: ANOVA-RM showed significant within group increases in serum total T and significant decreases in serum DHT from baseline in both dose groups at a significance level of alpha = 0.05.'

http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum

Edited by TheFountain, 12 October 2009 - 05:14 PM.


#37 hamishm00

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 07:27 PM

Yup, I agree with you Fountain. I sorted my hair thinning out. It got really bad when I hit 30. My hairdresser was freaking out, so I decided to take action. Through DHT inhibitors like Nisim, my hair thickness is better now than it was when I was 18.

Shit I just looked at that statement above, and it sounds 99% like one of those testimonials on TV. hahaha

I feel so lame right now.

Edited by hamishm00, 15 October 2009 - 07:28 PM.


#38 Dagon

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 02:33 PM

Ok, sorry if it came across that I was against treating baldness. I'm not, and it's something that I did fir a few years myself.

You're wrong on all accounts. I have seen guys who took a combination of natural DHT inhibitors go from having very thin hair to very thick hair. You obviously were already bald when you attempted your solutions. The key is to do it when you notice thinning. Prevention is the key not reversal.


I agree with you, Fountain, it's a slow battle and you have to rise to the challenge, take on board a daily anti-hairloss regimen and be consistent with its application. I've found that the slow decline in hair quality soon becomes a slow incline.


This is the problem - it's a daily *struggle*, and I think once you come out of it and accept your baldness at a deeper level, it's a very liberating experience and I don't ever want to go back to that everlasting battle for more follicles. I guess my baldness was a little worse than some of you guys though.

Maybe for some it's worth doing, but for a lot of people (probably the majority) the battle is almost impossible.

#39 TheFountain

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 03:53 PM

Ok, sorry if it came across that I was against treating baldness. I'm not, and it's something that I did fir a few years myself.

You're wrong on all accounts. I have seen guys who took a combination of natural DHT inhibitors go from having very thin hair to very thick hair. You obviously were already bald when you attempted your solutions. The key is to do it when you notice thinning. Prevention is the key not reversal.


I agree with you, Fountain, it's a slow battle and you have to rise to the challenge, take on board a daily anti-hairloss regimen and be consistent with its application. I've found that the slow decline in hair quality soon becomes a slow incline.


This is the problem - it's a daily *struggle*, and I think once you come out of it and accept your baldness at a deeper level, it's a very liberating experience and I don't ever want to go back to that everlasting battle for more follicles. I guess my baldness was a little worse than some of you guys though.

Maybe for some it's worth doing, but for a lot of people (probably the majority) the battle is almost impossible.


Yea I think you are meshing balding and hair thinning into the same category. Men who experience shedding and thinning as they get older can do something to reverse the process. Men who have already lost the majority of their hair? Another story. I don't think the success stories here are coming from guys who went bald and then reversed the process. I think it is coming from guys who dealt swiftly with hair thinning, thus hopefully preventing a further problem. But a trend I have noticed is that diet effects the rate of hair loss. Apparently soy isoflavones help as obviously do DHT inhibitors.

Edited by TheFountain, 22 October 2009 - 03:59 PM.


#40 immortali457

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 08:43 PM

I've been experimenting on myself for awhile now. I'm starting to see some results. Things I use are Nizoral, topical CE Ferulic with other goodies such as green tea. Tretinoin, copper peptides with DMSO. A DIY serum I make with a bunch of goodies (resveratrol, lutein, centella asiatica, apple stem cells, acai, olive leaf extract, cofeeberry extract).

Edited by immortali457, 22 October 2009 - 08:43 PM.


#41 amazingpawnhawk

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Posted 23 October 2009 - 12:35 AM

Hair today, gone tomorrow.

#42 JLL

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Posted 23 October 2009 - 07:57 AM

I've been experimenting on myself for awhile now. I'm starting to see some results. Things I use are Nizoral, topical CE Ferulic with other goodies such as green tea. Tretinoin, copper peptides with DMSO. A DIY serum I make with a bunch of goodies (resveratrol, lutein, centella asiatica, apple stem cells, acai, olive leaf extract, cofeeberry extract).


You should document your progress (take pictures). People on hair loss forums will be greatly interested in anyone having results without propecia and minoxidil.

#43 drmz

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Posted 23 October 2009 - 09:13 AM

What is in the Nisim shampoo that is objectively (pubmed supported) benefical for hair growth?

#44 JLL

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Posted 23 October 2009 - 10:08 AM

Here's the ingredient list:

Sodium Laureth Sulfate, water, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Cocamide MEA, Hydrolyzed Wheat Protein, Sodium Chloride, Dimethicone, Glycol Distearate, Glycine Soja, Panax Ginseng, Castanea Sativa, Arnica Montana, Hedera Helix, Geranium Maculatum, Inositol, Panthenol, Cystine, Cysteine, Methionine, Biotin, Citric Acid, Fragrance, Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Methylisothiazolinone and CI 42090 Blue 1.

Only one of the plant extracts I recognize is Panax Ginseng, which grew hair in vitro in one study.

#45 TheFountain

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Posted 24 October 2009 - 12:42 AM

And you can buy it rather cheaply on ebay.

#46 drmz

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Posted 24 October 2009 - 01:00 PM

Here's the ingredient list:

Sodium Laureth Sulfate, water, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Cocamide MEA, Hydrolyzed Wheat Protein, Sodium Chloride, Dimethicone, Glycol Distearate, Glycine Soja, Panax Ginseng, Castanea Sativa, Arnica Montana, Hedera Helix, Geranium Maculatum, Inositol, Panthenol, Cystine, Cysteine, Methionine, Biotin, Citric Acid, Fragrance, Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Methylisothiazolinone and CI 42090 Blue 1.

Only one of the plant extracts I recognize is Panax Ginseng, which grew hair in vitro in one study.



Hmzz not really worth the money if there is just one "beneficial (in vitro!) ingredient for hair growth.... :-D

#47 imm1288

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Posted 28 October 2009 - 08:22 AM

Rogaine and Propecia are the only 2 medicines that are FDA-approved for this. While it is fair to question whether FDA approval should be the standard for evaluating a drug, Propecia and Rogaine are FDA-approved because they have passed high-quality clinical studies and peer review. This is not the case for the other speculative medicines that have been mentioned here. Do your research and demand to see scientific and/or statistical proof. Don't just be swayed by the dominant opinion on an internet forum.

Also, you cannot "experiment" with hair loss medications. It takes at least 6-12 months to see the effectiveness of any medication due to the duration of the telogen phase of a hair follicle, and your entire head of hair takes at least *2-3 years* to move through a complete hair cycle (see http://en.wikipedia....e#Anagen_phase). So you would have to use a medicine exclusively for at least a year to see if it is effective. Meanwhile, you would be denying yourself other medicines that might be better. Since you only have a limited window to act before you lose your hair permanently, it is especially important that you stick with proven remedies. If you want to use other things in addition, fine.

Shampoo, too much washing, not enough washing, sebum, etc, are definitely *NOT* causes of baldness. If they were, they would have an effect on the side of your head too.

It is probably true that Rogaine does not address the long-term factors causing hair loss. However, it provides a one-time boost to your hair count, giving you more to work with using Propecia to prevent loss. Think of it like a hangglider:
Without Propecia and Rogaine, you jump 10 feet and travel forward losing 1 foot/second. You stay in the air 10 seconds.
With Propecia and Rogaine, you jump 20 feet (Rogaine) and travel forward losing 0.5 feet/second (Propecia). You stay in the air 40 seconds.
--> It is all about escape velocity, as the people on this forum can appreciate. You are waiting for a better drug to come along later.

As for me, anecdotally, I have been on Propecia 18 months, Rogaine 12 months, and my hair is much thicker than before. I get compliments on it all the time... it is probably my best feature. Before, I had thinning hair. I also use Nizoral because it might help, but mostly I use it to prevent itching from Rogaine.

I don't have any sexual side effects from the Propecia. I put on the Rogaine 1x daily right before I go to bed and I don't mind at all. The half-life is 24 hours so it's almost as good as doing it 2x daily. I use 3ml instead of the specified 1ml because I cover the entire top of my head through my hair.

I would check out these 2 blogs for more accurate information than the Hair Loss Talk blogs (I have been to HLT and share others' concerns). The following blogs are put together by smart and ethical hair transplant surgeons:
http://www.bernstein...transplantblog/
http://www.baldingblog.com/

Ok, now let's get back to more important things like cancer ;)

Edited by imm1288, 28 October 2009 - 08:36 AM.

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#48 wildfun

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 04:17 AM

This is the problem - it's a daily *struggle*, and I think once you come out of it and accept your baldness at a deeper level, it's a very liberating experience and I don't ever want to go back to that everlasting battle for more follicles. I guess my baldness was a little worse than some of you guys though.

Maybe for some it's worth doing, but for a lot of people (probably the majority) the battle is almost impossible.


I thought I'd offer a female perspective on the issue just to say going bald shouldn't be the end of the world, especially if it's hereditary and resistant to treatment. I find bald/balding men sexy. Perhaps it's the excess testosterone or something but in my experience the sex is always fantastic. I check out bald guys more because of this. I can't be the only one! Don't take something that might kill your libido or have weird side effects just because your hair is thinning. Bald guys are sexy too!

#49 drmz

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 08:42 AM

Got my minoxidil from ebay a week ago. I'm using it to stop the thinning of my hair. No bold spots yet, might take another 4-5 years.
Minoxifil gives me head cramps :p Like muscle ache. As if a big magnet is pulling my head. That's is the only side effect for now. Only lasts for about 30 mins - 1 hour.

#50 immortali457

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 11:58 AM

This is the problem - it's a daily *struggle*, and I think once you come out of it and accept your baldness at a deeper level, it's a very liberating experience and I don't ever want to go back to that everlasting battle for more follicles. I guess my baldness was a little worse than some of you guys though.

Maybe for some it's worth doing, but for a lot of people (probably the majority) the battle is almost impossible.


I thought I'd offer a female perspective on the issue just to say going bald shouldn't be the end of the world, especially if it's hereditary and resistant to treatment. I find bald/balding men sexy. Perhaps it's the excess testosterone or something but in my experience the sex is always fantastic. I check out bald guys more because of this. I can't be the only one! Don't take something that might kill your libido or have weird side effects just because your hair is thinning. Bald guys are sexy too!


Great post. Thanks :p

#51 Brain_Ischemia

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 03:58 PM

IMHO, stay away from minoxidil. I wouldn't put that shit on my scalp. Indeed, I'd be VERY VERY cautious about ANY chemicals and even cleansers that you apply directly to your skin.
Bear in mind that when something is absorbed through your skin it doesn't get processed by your gut where at least some attempt is made to naturally deal with toxins.

And no matter what anyone says, I also choose not to artificially alter my hormones to prevent hereditary hairloss.

#1- Calm down bro. I'm going bald too (check my profile pic). You know what? Big deal. Nobody cares. Really. No need to be embarrassed, no need to feel bad. Not only is thinning/baldness in men not a big deal these days, some people actually think it looks better and I can tell you that some women prefer it. Heck, at the very least it's less hair to have to comb and worry about.
#2- Two words: Patrick Stewart.
#3- As far as dandruff, I find that getting adequate levels of B6 (Pyridoxine) definitely helps. Also restrict hair washing to three times a week (or even less), minimize time in the shower, and use small amounts of shampoo (or natural shampoos)
#4- Get 7-8 hours of sleep every time at the same time consistently.
#5- I'm sorry about the traumatic events, and perhaps I can relate a bit, but you really do need a way to cope with the stress. Get optimum nutrition with adequate vitamins and nutrients, consider 2,000-4,000 IU of Vitamin D a day, exposure to blue light (has been shown to treat seasonal affective disorder), look up some information on meditation, heck, even try routine masturbation. ANYTHING to help with stress; it is a MAJOR ager (arguably one of THE big ones) and will most definitely HURT your efforts at longevity.


I wouldn't worry much about the wi-fi. I have a wireless network at my house on 24/7 and my baldness has actually *slowed* or *stopped* in the last 2-3 years. That's about the time I started serious Calorie Restriction and that seems to have done it. I used to find hair on my pillow case, would end up with hair on my fingers every time I touched my head, and now that has completely STOPPED. I can only assume it must be the CR.

But since my hairloss is also hereditary, I'm not the least bit worried if/when I do eventually go bald. Like I said, more convenient for me anyway and I prefer the sleeker, cleaner look. :D
One more tip: DON'T try to hide it. HONESTLY. Comb-over, whatever....DON'T, just don't. Take some advice from Jason Statham and Patrick Stewart; be confident and keep it as short as possible.

Edited by Xanthus, 03 November 2009 - 04:13 PM.


#52 nowayout

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 07:23 PM

One more tip: DON'T try to hide it. HONESTLY. Comb-over, whatever....DON'T, just don't. Take some advice from Jason Statham and Patrick Stewart; be confident and keep it as short as possible.


Very true. Short is key.


Trying to grow it out to cover up just emphasizes it and actually makes one look older and a bit pathetic.

Edited by viveutvivas, 03 November 2009 - 07:24 PM.


#53 nowayout

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 07:23 PM

What I mean...

Attached Files


Edited by viveutvivas, 03 November 2009 - 07:25 PM.


#54 Ali

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 10:40 PM

Rogaine and Propecia are the only 2 medicines that are FDA-approved for this. While it is fair to question whether FDA approval should be the standard for evaluating a drug, Propecia and Rogaine are FDA-approved because they have passed high-quality clinical studies and peer review. This is not the case for the other speculative medicines that have been mentioned here. Do your research and demand to see scientific and/or statistical proof. Don't just be swayed by the dominant opinion on an internet forum.

Also, you cannot "experiment" with hair loss medications. It takes at least 6-12 months to see the effectiveness of any medication due to the duration of the telogen phase of a hair follicle, and your entire head of hair takes at least *2-3 years* to move through a complete hair cycle (see http://en.wikipedia....e#Anagen_phase). So you would have to use a medicine exclusively for at least a year to see if it is effective. Meanwhile, you would be denying yourself other medicines that might be better. Since you only have a limited window to act before you lose your hair permanently, it is especially important that you stick with proven remedies. If you want to use other things in addition, fine.

Shampoo, too much washing, not enough washing, sebum, etc, are definitely *NOT* causes of baldness. If they were, they would have an effect on the side of your head too.

It is probably true that Rogaine does not address the long-term factors causing hair loss. However, it provides a one-time boost to your hair count, giving you more to work with using Propecia to prevent loss. Think of it like a hangglider:
Without Propecia and Rogaine, you jump 10 feet and travel forward losing 1 foot/second. You stay in the air 10 seconds.
With Propecia and Rogaine, you jump 20 feet (Rogaine) and travel forward losing 0.5 feet/second (Propecia). You stay in the air 40 seconds.
--> It is all about escape velocity, as the people on this forum can appreciate. You are waiting for a better drug to come along later.

As for me, anecdotally, I have been on Propecia 18 months, Rogaine 12 months, and my hair is much thicker than before. I get compliments on it all the time... it is probably my best feature. Before, I had thinning hair. I also use Nizoral because it might help, but mostly I use it to prevent itching from Rogaine.

I don't have any sexual side effects from the Propecia. I put on the Rogaine 1x daily right before I go to bed and I don't mind at all. The half-life is 24 hours so it's almost as good as doing it 2x daily. I use 3ml instead of the specified 1ml because I cover the entire top of my head through my hair.

I would check out these 2 blogs for more accurate information than the Hair Loss Talk blogs (I have been to HLT and share others' concerns). The following blogs are put together by smart and ethical hair transplant surgeons:
http://www.bernstein...transplantblog/
http://www.baldingblog.com/

Ok, now let's get back to more important things like cancer :)



EXCELLENT post, couldnt have put it better myself, been using Rogaine and Propecia for the past year and a half, after i noticed my hair was thinning, now my hair is as thick as it was when i was 19, seriously!!!

Ive experienced zero side effects and only 1-2% of people actually expereince any sexual side effect from propeica and these figures are from clinical trials not heresay from forum members who are experiencing placebo side effects!!!

#55 Blue

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 11:41 PM

One more tip: DON'T try to hide it. HONESTLY. Comb-over, whatever....DON'T, just don't. Take some advice from Jason Statham and Patrick Stewart; be confident and keep it as short as possible.


Very true. Short is key.


Trying to grow it out to cover up just emphasizes it and actually makes one look older and a bit pathetic.

Agree but why any at all? Clean-shaven is better. Combine with a beard. The lack of scalp hair will accentuate your chin and bead which is what you want.

What are the biggest differences between men and women on the upper body half? Women have breasts. Men have beards.

#56 Ghostrider

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 05:28 AM

Well, I have been using Minoxidil (15% + azelaic acid (spelling?)) + generic propecia for 6 months now and I am impressed with the results. Although, I think my hairloss was due mostly to stress and cause of the stress also went away (I don't ever remember losing hair in the shower, just noticed that my hair had thinned over the past 10 years, especially the hairline). I'm not taking any chances, once you lose your hair, it's (as of today) gone for good. The people at hairlosstalk.com are very pessimistic about hair cloning technologies coming to market anytime soon (within the next 5 years). Although we should probably have something within the next 10 since some of the clinical trials from Histogen do look pretty good. (That's one company I would fund if I had the money. The first company to develop hair cloning will be earning money faster than the Fed can print it, even in these economic times. In any case, I am happy with where finasteride + minox has gotten me so far. I'll give it another year or two then I'll start backing off the minox and see if the finasteride can hold what I have. Probably around April I will post my before and after on one of the hair loss forums. But basically, I went from about a Norwood 2 - 2.5 hairline to currently about a Norwood 1 - 1.5. I expect to get my 17 year old hair line back if I keep regrowing hair at my current rate. I have not noticed any side effects from being on either medication. Today, no one would suspect that I have lost hair since I was 17. That's pretty good as far as I am concerned.

#57 JLL

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 09:07 AM

Some people look better bald than others... it's getting a little tiresome hearing people with shaved heads telling everyone they should just stop worrying and be bald. Fact is, the shape of the skull and how your face looks will determine how good (or bad) you look bald. Yeah I'd rather shave my head than do a Donald Trump comb-over, but if the option is to keep my hair in the first place then I'll go with that.

That said, to anyone stressing about going bald, I would say that it's not a sentence for life but a temporary situation. In the future, we can have any kind of hair we want.
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#58 nowayout

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 03:39 PM

In the future, we can have any kind of hair we want.


We are living in the future
I'll tell you how I know
I read it in the paper
Fifteen years ago
We're all driving rocket ships
And talking with our minds
And wearing turquoise jewelry
And standing in soup lines
We are standing in soup lines

-- John Prine

Don't worry, darlin'
No baby, don't you fret
We're livin' in the future
And none of this has happened yet
Don't worry, darlin'
No baby, don't you fret
We're livin' in the future
And none of this has happened yet

-- Bruce Spingsteen

Edited by viveutvivas, 04 November 2009 - 03:43 PM.


#59 nowayout

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 04:29 PM

Ive experienced zero side effects and only 1-2% of people actually expereince any sexual side effect from propeica and these figures are from clinical trials not heresay from forum members who are experiencing placebo side effects!!!


I think the 1-2% is a deflated number. I do not believe the study was unbiased.

However, even if the percentage is that small, that still does not help the number of users who experience extremely serious long-term documented endocrine side effects sometimes after only short-term use of finasteride, sometimes only a couple of pills. People's lives have been destroyed to the point of suicide. The side effects are not placebo.

But good for you if you don't have side effects. That does not mean everyone else is a liar.

#60 TheFountain

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Posted 05 December 2009 - 10:01 PM

Nisim is highly effective DHT inhibitor

What ingredients specifically inhibit DHT in it? I know the ginseng helps and the biotin is known to stengthen hair follicles but nisim is a product name, not an actual supplement. What supplement in the Nisim is directed related to DHT inhibition? You might want to clarify so that people who are actually losing their hair can make the right decisions. Thank goodness I am not one of them. Also I think people might confuse this stuff with topical finasteride shampoo. Otherwise known as Nizoral. I'm not sure but I think the latter has at least been proven effective. I mean I am sure the Nisim is somewhat effective because it contains products that have been proven in the lab but for some of these guys who are really losing their hair fast it might not be enough. But alas, I think diet is one of the most important aspects. Those with diets conducive to DHT production (lots of meat eating) should heed this.

Edited by TheFountain, 05 December 2009 - 10:08 PM.





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