107 replies to this topic

[VesperLynd]

I see the mention of casein. I add Milk Protein Isolate to my smoothie for my morning protein. When trying to restrict calories, I've never seen a food blunt hunger any better than casein.

Coconut is pretty good, but casein? wow, amazing.

Ok, now guess I need to go research why casein is unhealthy for me.

VL

[TheFountain]

I see the mention of casein. I add Milk Protein Isolate to my smoothie for my morning protein. When trying to restrict calories, I've never seen a food blunt hunger any better than casein.

Coconut is pretty good, but casein? wow, amazing.

Ok, now guess I need to go research why casein is unhealthy for me.

VL

Google Casein and IGF-1 but this also applies to animal meat as well.

[immortali457]

There's no way you can prove whole grains are unhealthy.

Perhaps you can prove they are healthy?

Replace whole grains with God and healthy/unhealthy with exists/doesn't-exists ^^

I had to ^^

Wow thanks

[immortali457]

Well I guarantee you will lose one to a vegetarian who is on a no dairy, low carb, low fructose, high vegetable, moderate protein/calorie diet. Besides we are still figuring out what health markers are the healthiest. What have you to say regarding the studies that show meat consumption may shorten life spans due to IGF-1 activation? What have you to say to correlative evidence indicating that red meat consumption leads to increased chances of prostate cancer? The studies that show vegetarian diets lower IGF-1? Anything? In short, you're arrogant Duke.

If I wanted the best possible health "for the moment" I'd choose Duke's diet in a flash. All of his bio-markers convince me that if he got sick, was shot, was in a car accident, etc. He would be positioning himself for the best possible chance of survival and recovery.

Now, Duke may disagree with me, but I feel the best possible health "for the moment" is different than the best possible health for longevity. This is no different than saying that if you were severely sick, your prognosis is better with a higher BMI (providing you aren't overweight) because you usually have a larger muscle mass reserve to draw upon. Obviously, if you weren't sick, you could keep your BMI as low as is practical.

I believe a low fat diet creates the conditions for the least insulin like-activity <---- this is different than absolute insulin levels, lowest IGF-1, lowest growth factors like HGH, etc.
As long as you keep your BMI low on this diet, you would give yourself the best chance for the best longevity. If you let your weight creep up at all <---- right away, a low carb diet becomes superior to this diet, hense the reason why most people seem to just do better on low carb diets.

Excess muscle leads to faster aging, I feel this is way overlooked by everyone who supplements HGH, and tries to grow big muscles.

And for everyone out there, if I had a low fat diet next to a low carb diet where both diets were barely eating enough to maintain their weights, which one would have more muscle. It is an easy answer, the low carb one. So, the low carb diet creates more growth-like hormones, hense, it ages you faster.


BTW, I'm going to include this quote from ray peat.

Insulin is important in the regulation of blood sugar, but its importance has been exaggerated because of the diabetes/insulin industry. Insulin itself has been found to account for only about 8% of the "insulin-like activity" of the blood, with potassium being probably the largest factor. There probably isn't any process in the body that doesn't potentially affect blood sugar.


http://raypeat.com/a.../glycemia.shtml

Lack of muscle will help you fall down the stairs in your old age.

[mustardseed41]

Any opinions on Mark Sisson's book "The Primal Blueprint"?
Is this a good book to read for one starting out eating as Duke suggests?

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/

[kenj]

Duke, I may be wrong here, but ISTM you do not recognize a healthy vegetarian diet... We get that carbs are bad in abundance, but you don't HAVE TO wolf down snickers on rice cakes with Cokes to be vegetarian. ;-) The strongest Evidence for a favourable diet for maximum lifespan is AFAIK a diet low in calories and high in nutrition, and these essentials are relatively 'easy' to meet on a vegetarian diet.
You're a fine example of good health on a high fat diet, but let's move on from the '1990s-High-Carb-Low-Nutrient-Bad-Health-Crash-Diet' phenomenon........

[DukeNukem]

Any opinions on Mark Sisson's book "The Primal Blueprint"?
Is this a good book to read for one starting out eating as Duke suggests?

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/

This is an excellent starter book on paleo-style eating.

[DukeNukem]

Duke, I may be wrong here, but ISTM you do not recognize a healthy vegetarian diet... We get that carbs are bad in abundance, but you don't HAVE TO wolf down snickers on rice cakes with Cokes to be vegetarian. ;-) The strongest Evidence for a favourable diet for maximum lifespan is AFAIK a diet low in calories and high in nutrition, and these essentials are relatively 'easy' to meet on a vegetarian diet.
You're a fine example of good health on a high fat diet, but let's move on from the '1990s-High-Carb-Low-Nutrient-Bad-Health-Crash-Diet' phenomenon........

Kenj,

It's a mistake to think I dislike carbs. However, there's too much evidence, IMO, that natural animal fats are required for optimal health. And I'm actually stunned that anyone nowadays would still believe a low-fat diet is healthy. Low-fat diets lose in all studies I've seen versus high-fat diets.

Also, animal-based diets always come out on top versus non-animal diets, such as these two:

Carbs push HDL down and triglycerides up:
http://www.jacn.org/...stract/28/2/150

And...

A comparison of the effect of diets containing beef protein and plant proteins on blood lipids of healthy young men
Mean plasma high-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels were significantly (p less than 0.05) elevated at the end of the 21-day period when the animal protein diet was consumed (48 +/- 3 mg/dl) compared to the period when the plant protein diet was fed (42 +/- 2 mg/dl). Mean serum triglyceride values were significantly (p less than 0.05) increased at day 7 of the plant protein diet period (136 +/- 19 mg/dl) compared to the same time period when the animal protein diet was consumed (84 +/- 12 mg/dl).
http://www.ajcn.org/...stract/40/5/982

In short, animal protein (which includes animals fats) elevated HDL (a good thing) and left LDL and triglycerides unchanged (as should be expected). Those eating plant protein saw their triglycerides rise (a bad thing). Had these researchers known to check (they didn't back in 1984), they could have also measured the change in oxidized LDL, and they would have seen it rise, too, versus those eating meat. Oxidized LDL is a primary cause of heart disease.

The bottom-line is that to be healthy, you need to significantly reduce carbs -- mostly high glycemic index carbs like grains and starches, and sugar carbs. High water mass plant foods (salad-type carbs and most veggies) are already ultra low-carb as designed by nature.

While starchy carbs are life-shortening (due to their ability to raise blood sugar too high), grain carbs are the real enemy because they not only raise blood sugar, but have several "anti-nutrients" like gluten, phytic acid, lectins, and their omega-6 imbalance adds to the inflammatory effect of grains, too.

"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution," (quote by Russian scientist Theodosius Dobzhansky). This quote fits like Cinderella's slipper with regard to the human diet. Quite simply, the healthiest diet is the one we are evolved to eat. And that means a high-fat, animal- and fish-meat rich diet, with no gluten grains, no processed oils, and practically no fructose.

Edited by DukeNukem, 08 November 2009 - 10:41 PM.

[mustardseed41]

Any opinions on Mark Sisson's book "The Primal Blueprint"?
Is this a good book to read for one starting out eating as Duke suggests?

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/

This is an excellent starter book on paleo-style eating.

Cool thanks. Seems most of what you need to know is on his site. Maybe no need for the book. Is this a fair statement?

[DukeNukem]

Any opinions on Mark Sisson's book "The Primal Blueprint"?
Is this a good book to read for one starting out eating as Duke suggests?

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/

This is an excellent starter book on paleo-style eating.

Cool thanks. Seems most of what you need to know is on his site. Maybe no need for the book. Is this a fair statement?

Probably.

[mustardseed41]

Duke do you have a link to what and how much you eat on a daily basis? Calories, grams of carbs, fat, protein.

[david ellis]

I'm sure heart disease in humans occurred starting with the domestication of grains, but it was rare until processed oils also entered our food supple, just over 100 years ago.

Your first thought was right, Duke, heart disease started with grains. The proof is mummies. The blood vessels are preserved and they tell a story. The Egyptians were "bread eaters". I think heart attacks have happened over the centuries. But, the pace of heart disease has quickened with the advent of factory farms and processing. Anecdotal stories about family members reaching 90 don't impress me much because it is possible they died 30 years early because they ate grains.

"Blood vessels are well preserved in mummies and they provide accurate evidence of vascular disease. Diseases of the aorta and coronary arteries, with arteriosclerosis of the kidney and heart blood vessels tell us that the stresses of modern day highly civilized life are not the sole causes of degenerative vascular diseases. They are known from ancient Egypt."

DukeNukem, you are the first I have met on this forum who takes the same magnitude of blood/urine tests that I do. I am curious which ones you take. Could you share that info? I use Metametrix's ION panel. I believe that taking supplements without testing is short sighted. How else can you tell if your supplements are working? It is better than gene testing, because genes are not the final story on what will happen.

[TheFountain]

Duke, I may be wrong here, but ISTM you do not recognize a healthy vegetarian diet... We get that carbs are bad in abundance, but you don't HAVE TO wolf down snickers on rice cakes with Cokes to be vegetarian. ;-) The strongest Evidence for a favourable diet for maximum lifespan is AFAIK a diet low in calories and high in nutrition, and these essentials are relatively 'easy' to meet on a vegetarian diet.
You're a fine example of good health on a high fat diet, but let's move on from the '1990s-High-Carb-Low-Nutrient-Bad-Health-Crash-Diet' phenomenon........

Kenj,

It's a mistake to think I dislike carbs. However, there's too much evidence, IMO, that natural animal fats are required for optimal health. And I'm actually stunned that anyone nowadays would still believe a low-fat diet is healthy. Low-fat diets lose in all studies I've seen versus high-fat diets.

Also, animal-based diets always come out on top versus non-animal diets, such as these two:

Carbs push HDL down and triglycerides up:
http://www.jacn.org/...stract/28/2/150

And...

A comparison of the effect of diets containing beef protein and plant proteins on blood lipids of healthy young men
Mean plasma high-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels were significantly (p less than 0.05) elevated at the end of the 21-day period when the animal protein diet was consumed (48 +/- 3 mg/dl) compared to the period when the plant protein diet was fed (42 +/- 2 mg/dl). Mean serum triglyceride values were significantly (p less than 0.05) increased at day 7 of the plant protein diet period (136 +/- 19 mg/dl) compared to the same time period when the animal protein diet was consumed (84 +/- 12 mg/dl).
http://www.ajcn.org/...stract/40/5/982

In short, animal protein (which includes animals fats) elevated HDL (a good thing) and left LDL and triglycerides unchanged (as should be expected). Those eating plant protein saw their triglycerides rise (a bad thing). Had these researchers known to check (they didn't back in 1984), they could have also measured the change in oxidized LDL, and they would have seen it rise, too, versus those eating meat. Oxidized LDL is a primary cause of heart disease.

The bottom-line is that to be healthy, you need to significantly reduce carbs -- mostly high glycemic index carbs like grains and starches, and sugar carbs. High water mass plant foods (salad-type carbs and most veggies) are already ultra low-carb as designed by nature.

While starchy carbs are life-shortening (due to their ability to raise blood sugar too high), grain carbs are the real enemy because they not only raise blood sugar, but have several "anti-nutrients" like gluten, phytic acid, lectins, and their omega-6 imbalance adds to the inflammatory effect of grains, too.

"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution," (quote by Russian scientist Theodosius Dobzhansky). This quote fits like Cinderella's slipper with regard to the human diet. Quite simply, the healthiest diet is the one we are evolved to eat. And that means a high-fat, animal- and fish-meat rich diet, with no gluten grains, no processed oils, and practically no fructose.

The studies you point to do not include healthy vegetarian subjects, they do not, on the microscale, distinguish between those on a healthy 'plant based' (I.E most of your nutrients coming from actual vegetables! duh!) diets and those dominated by refined carbohydrates. Furthermore there are several studies which shows that vegetarian diets are without question better for longevity than meat-based ones for several reasons, one of which is because meat based diets increase IGF-1 output.

Here's just a couple references (there are dozens). You may find the first one particularly interesting, as it slaps all your assertions across the face.


A low-fat, whole-food vegan diet, as well as other strategies that down-regulate IGF-I activity, may slow the human aging process.

Pantox Laboratories, San Diego, California 92109, USA.

A considerable amount of evidence is consistent with the proposition that systemic IGF-I activity acts as pacesetter in the aging process. A reduction in IGF-I activity is the common characteristic of rodents whose maximal lifespan has been increased by a wide range of genetic or dietary measures, including caloric restriction. The lifespans of breeds of dogs and strains of rats tend to be inversely proportional to their mature weight and IGF-I levels. The link between IGF-I and aging appears to be evolutionarily conserved; in worms and flies, lifespan is increased by reduction-of-function mutations in signaling intermediates homologous to those which mediate insulin/IGF-I activity in mammals. The fact that an increase in IGF-I activity plays a key role in the induction of sexual maturity, is consistent with a broader role for-IGF-I in aging regulation. If down-regulation of IGF-I activity could indeed slow aging in humans, a range of practical measures for achieving this may be at hand. These include a low-fat, whole-food, vegan diet, exercise training, soluble fiber, insulin sensitizers, appetite suppressants, and agents such as flax lignans, oral estrogen, or tamoxifen that decrease hepatic synthesis of IGF-I. Many of these measures would also be expected to decrease risk for common age-related diseases. Regimens combining several of these approaches might have a sufficient impact on IGF-I activity to achieve a useful retardation of the aging process. However, in light of the fact that IGF-I promotes endothelial production of nitric oxide and may be of especial importance to cerebrovascular health, additional measures for stroke prevention-most notably salt restriction-may be advisable when attempting to down-regulate IGF-I activity as a pro-longevity strategy.


Cancer Epidemiology Unit, Imperial Cancer Research Fund, Radcliffe Infirmary, Oxford, UK.

Mean serum insulin-like growth factor-I was 9% lower in 233 vegan men than in 226 meat-eaters and 237 vegetarians (P = 0.002). Vegans had higher testosterone levels than vegetarians and meat-eaters, but this was offset by higher sex hormone binding globulin, and there were no differences between diet groups in free testosterone, androstanediol glucuronide or luteinizing hormone.


Also:

'The mean serum C-reactive protein (P = .03), *insulin-like growth factor* 1 (P = .002), and leptin (P = .005) were lower in the RF (vegetarian) group.'

Department of Human Nutrition, Faculty of Life Sciences, University of Copenhagen, Frederiksberg, Denmark. cahop@food.dtu.dk

BACKGROUND/OBJECTIVES: Milk increases both fasting insulin and insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1), and thereby growth, in healthy prepubertal boys. It is, however, unknown which components in milk are responsible for milk's growth-stimulating effect. SUBJECTS/METHODS: To get closer to the identification of which components in milk that stimulate growth, we have performed an intervention study with 57 eight-year-old boys in which we examined the effects of the two major milk protein fractions, whey and casein, and milk minerals (Ca and P) in a 2 x 2 factorial design on IGFs and glucose-insulin metabolism. The amounts of whey and casein were identical to the content in 1.5 l skim milk. The amounts of Ca and P were similar to 1.5 l skim milk in the high-mineral drinks, whereas the amounts of Ca and P were reduced in the low-mineral drinks. RESULTS: There were no interactions between milk mineral groups (high, low) and milk protein groups (whey, casein). Serum IGF-1 increased by 15% (P<0.0001), whereas there was no change in fasting insulin (P=0.36) in the casein group. In the whey group, fasting insulin increased by 21% (P=0.006), with no change in IGF-1 (P=0.27). There were no independent effects of a high milk mineral intake on IGF-1 and insulin. CONCLUSIONS: The main milk protein fractions exhibit important but different growth-promoting effects by increasing either fasting insulin (whey) or IGF-1 (casein) levels.

Edited by TheFountain, 08 November 2009 - 11:55 PM.

[TheFountain]

'in short' I think when Duke says 'plant protein' he is not actually referring to plants but to refined carbohydrates. I can't believe in the face of the mounting evidence regarding longevity and animal protein/dairy that he still makes the assertion that it is the animal protein aspect of his diet that is the healthy component (as opposed to the low carb+moderate exercise aspect). Not to even mention the correlative evidence showing a connection between consuming large amounts of animal protein and prostate cancer risk due to elevated DHT levels in aging men. 'in short' I think that Duke wants to eat meat, so he, and many other's who think just like him, follow whatever 'science' allows him to justify it to himself. Gary Tuabes, regardless of how compelling his book is, is not an authority on this. He doesn't even have extensive nutritional training (he is a trained physicist!). He and mark sisson are not adequate authorities to listen to for all ones health and longevity needs. Anyone who thinks so is naive. Both men make good points, clearly, but I would not rest myself comfortably on their 'evidence'.

Edited by TheFountain, 09 November 2009 - 12:03 AM.

[david ellis]

'in short' I think when Duke says 'plant protein' he is not actually referring to plants but to refined carbohydrates. I can't believe in the face of the mounting evidence regarding longevity and animal protein/dairy that he still makes the assertion that it is the animal protein aspect of his diet that is the healthy component (as opposed to the low carb+moderate exercise aspect). Not to even mention the correlative evidence showing a connection between consuming large amounts of animal protein and prostate cancer risk due to elevated DHT levels in aging men. 'in short' I think that Duke wants to eat meat, so he, and many other's who think just like him, follow whatever 'science' allows him to justify it to himself. Gary Tuabes, regardless of how compelling his book is, is not an authority on this. He doesn't even have extensive nutritional training (he is a trained physicist!). He and mark sisson are not adequate authorities to listen to for all ones health and longevity needs. Anyone who thinks so is naive. Both men make good points, clearly, but I would not rest myself comfortably on their 'evidence'.

I was a vegetarian for 25 years. A big mistake, look at the Egyptian mummy reference for proof that grains are bad, and have always been bad for humans. In addition to the CVD arthritis also can be blamed on grains. Man before grains was not plagued by bad teeth and arthritis. Before looking at studies, think about the ax the writer had to grind. I bought into the "diet for a small planet" book in 1972. I was uncomfortable reading , only 40 grams of protein is needed. For a source she used the World Health Organization's number, a UN outfit. That 40 grams was a political number, saying that a healthy guy needed 100 grams would mean saying that more than half the world is starving for protein. Nobody inthe UN would say that. I should have listened to my doubts then. I went on a low-fat, low-protein, high carb diet. I lost weight, but when we figured out whether it was lean or fat it was lean. Big warning sign that I ignored. You two are getting warning signals, think it through carefully.

[DukeNukem]

A low-fat, whole-food vegan diet, as well as other strategies that down-regulate IGF-I activity, may slow the human aging process.

Pantox Laboratories, San Diego, California 92109, USA.

A considerable amount of evidence is consistent with the proposition that systemic IGF-I activity acts as pacesetter in the aging process. A reduction in IGF-I activity is the common characteristic of rodents whose maximal lifespan has been increased by a wide range of genetic or dietary measures, including caloric restriction. The lifespans of breeds of dogs and strains of rats tend to be inversely proportional to their mature weight and IGF-I levels. The link between IGF-I and aging appears to be evolutionarily conserved; in worms and flies, lifespan is increased by reduction-of-function mutations in signaling intermediates homologous to those which mediate insulin/IGF-I activity in mammals. The fact that an increase in IGF-I activity plays a key role in the induction of sexual maturity, is consistent with a broader role for-IGF-I in aging regulation. If down-regulation of IGF-I activity could indeed slow aging in humans, a range of practical measures for achieving this may be at hand. These include a low-fat, whole-food, vegan diet, exercise training, soluble fiber, insulin sensitizers, appetite suppressants, and agents such as flax lignans, oral estrogen, or tamoxifen that decrease hepatic synthesis of IGF-I. Many of these measures would also be expected to decrease risk for common age-related diseases. Regimens combining several of these approaches might have a sufficient impact on IGF-I activity to achieve a useful retardation of the aging process. However, in light of the fact that IGF-I promotes endothelial production of nitric oxide and may be of especial importance to cerebrovascular health, additional measures for stroke prevention-most notably salt restriction-may be advisable when attempting to down-regulate IGF-I activity as a pro-longevity strategy.

This abstract says that longevity and IGF-1 appear to be associative, which I tend to agree with, based on what I've read independent of this. However, it does not office evidence that a paleo-type diet results in more IGF-1 than a vegetarian diet.

Cancer Epidemiology Unit, Imperial Cancer Research Fund, Radcliffe Infirmary, Oxford, UK.

Mean serum insulin-like growth factor-I was 9% lower in 233 vegan men than in 226 meat-eaters and 237 vegetarians (P = 0.002). Vegans had higher testosterone levels than vegetarians and meat-eaters, but this was offset by higher sex hormone binding globulin, and there were no differences between diet groups in free testosterone, androstanediol glucuronide or luteinizing hormone.

This does say the IGF-1 is 9% lower in vegan men, but "meat-eaters" needs to be defined. Were they also consuming processed oils, for example? Way too many questions like this need to be answered, in order to draw a conclusion from this study.

'The mean serum C-reactive protein (P = .03), *insulin-like growth factor* 1 (P = .002), and leptin (P = .005) were lower in the RF (vegetarian) group.'

Department of Human Nutrition, Faculty of Life Sciences, University of Copenhagen, Frederiksberg, Denmark. cahop@food.dtu.dk

BACKGROUND/OBJECTIVES: Milk increases both fasting insulin and insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1), and thereby growth, in healthy prepubertal boys. It is, however, unknown which components in milk are responsible for milk's growth-stimulating effect. SUBJECTS/METHODS: To get closer to the identification of which components in milk that stimulate growth, we have performed an intervention study with 57 eight-year-old boys in which we examined the effects of the two major milk protein fractions, whey and casein, and milk minerals (Ca and P) in a 2 x 2 factorial design on IGFs and glucose-insulin metabolism. The amounts of whey and casein were identical to the content in 1.5 l skim milk. The amounts of Ca and P were similar to 1.5 l skim milk in the high-mineral drinks, whereas the amounts of Ca and P were reduced in the low-mineral drinks. RESULTS: There were no interactions between milk mineral groups (high, low) and milk protein groups (whey, casein). Serum IGF-1 increased by 15% (P<0.0001), whereas there was no change in fasting insulin (P=0.36) in the casein group. In the whey group, fasting insulin increased by 21% (P=0.006), with no change in IGF-1 (P=0.27). There were no independent effects of a high milk mineral intake on IGF-1 and insulin. CONCLUSIONS: The main milk protein fractions exhibit important but different growth-promoting effects by increasing either fasting insulin (whey) or IGF-1 (casein) levels.

Milk is not a paleo-food. However, many many vegetarian I know supplement with whey protein powder, to make up for the lack of natural protein in a typical vegetarian/vegan diet. I've always been against cow-based casein protein in this forum, btw. When it comes to milk, my recommendation has been raw milk, or better, goat's milk/dairy, which is what I use (including cheese and butter). Goat-base casein is different than cow-based, and considered healthier to humans.

Edited by DukeNukem, 09 November 2009 - 12:49 AM.

[DukeNukem]

Gary Tuabes, regardless of how compelling his book is, is not an authority on this. He doesn't even have extensive nutritional training (he is a trained physicist!). He and mark sisson are not adequate authorities to listen to for all ones health and longevity needs. Anyone who thinks so is naive.

This is a poor argument. Many of the most smart and successful people in their field are self-taught, and without an earned degree, like Gates and Jobs. In my field, I have no formal education in game development, yet I am one of the most successful individuals in the industry. In health, I'd rank my knowledge--as it pertains to prolonged health for the average person--ahead of 999/1000 doctors in the USA. But you're right, I do not have a degree to back it up. Just as I have no degree in game development.

Edited by DukeNukem, 09 November 2009 - 12:55 AM.

[Mind]

Clearly most humans evolved to eat meat/animal protein/fat and people can be very healthy on such diets. In fact every supercentenarian I have ever read about consumed animal some protein/fat most of their lives. For all the vegetarians out there, why not just state the main argument against animal diets, the one that is very difficult to counter, the ethical argument. Perhaps this would accelerate the development of synthetic meat. You never know.

[DairyProducts]

"BTW, fiber is unimportant to my diet -- more and more I am coming to believe that fiber is a net-negative."

Duke, I remember your past posts noted that you ate 70+ grams of fiber a day. What convinced you otherwise? How much do you eat now?

[Skötkonung]

Just curious DukeNukem, but do you get your methylglycoxal levels checked?

Although it is only one data point, a study published not so long ago discovered that long term adherents to a low-carb/high-fat diet had vastly raised methylglycoxal levels (leading to concentrations even worse than those seen in poorly controlled diabetics). Methylglycoxal, as you may know, is a major precursor of AGE’s that is also, ironically, produced within the cells of diabetic patients when they are forced to take in more glucose than they can immediately process. So while you might be enjoying excellent lipids, you could be setting yourself up for major glycotoxin related damage.

Study: Ketosis Leads to Increased Methylglyoxal Production on the Atkins Diet

This data point has yet to be verified by another study, so I don't know how relevant it will be. Especially in light of the well known enhanced antioxidant capability when on a high-fat / low-carb diet.

Study: Effect of Short-Term Ketogenic Diet on Redox Status of Human Blood

Methylglycoxal testing is expensive and probably requires a research lab. If I had the money to run this test, I certainly would. Especially since I have been on a high-fat / low-carb diet (ketogenic) diet for years.

[Skötkonung]

"BTW, fiber is unimportant to my diet -- more and more I am coming to believe that fiber is a net-negative."

Duke, I remember your past posts noted that you ate 70+ grams of fiber a day. What convinced you otherwise? How much do you eat now?

The constipation many see when carbohydrate restricting can mitigated by a high fat intake. With that in mind, fiber really isn't necessary - especially since it isn't digestible (no loss in nutrients).

[DukeNukem]

"BTW, fiber is unimportant to my diet -- more and more I am coming to believe that fiber is a net-negative."

Duke, I remember your past posts noted that you ate 70+ grams of fiber a day. What convinced you otherwise? How much do you eat now?

The constipation many see when carbohydrate restricting can mitigated by a high fat intake. With that in mind, fiber really isn't necessary - especially since it isn't digestible (no loss in nutrients).

Several reasons. Here are a few:
http://donmatesz.blo...rch/label/fiber

Just as the need for vitamin C is significantly reduced on a low-carb diet (which likely explains why humans lost the genetic coding to produce it -- it just wasn't needed given the typical hominid diet), I do not believe fiber is in anyway essential, or even beneficial, on a low-carb diet. In any case, high-water-mass carbs, like salad-type carbs, generally have fiber.

[DukeNukem]

Just curious DukeNukem, but do you get your methylglycoxal levels checked?

Although it is only one data point, a study published not so long ago discovered that long term adherents to a low-carb/high-fat diet had vastly raised methylglycoxal levels (leading to concentrations even worse than those seen in poorly controlled diabetics). Methylglycoxal, as you may know, is a major precursor of AGE’s that is also, ironically, produced within the cells of diabetic patients when they are forced to take in more glucose than they can immediately process. So while you might be enjoying excellent lipids, you could be setting yourself up for major glycotoxin related damage.

Study: Ketosis Leads to Increased Methylglyoxal Production on the Atkins Diet

This data point has yet to be verified by another study, so I don't know how relevant it will be. Especially in light of the well known enhanced antioxidant capability when on a high-fat / low-carb diet.

Study: Effect of Short-Term Ketogenic Diet on Redox Status of Human Blood

Methylglycoxal testing is expensive and probably requires a research lab. If I had the money to run this test, I certainly would. Especially since I have been on a high-fat / low-carb diet (ketogenic) diet for years.

I've not had my methylglycoxal levels checked. I'd really like to see the full text of those studies to see if other factors are potentially to blame. For example, the Atkins Diet (and Atkins products) includes numerous inflammatory/processed oils, like soy bean oil. Foods sold by Atkins are quite often pro-disease causing. I never recommend any Atkins product.

[HaloTeK]

TheFountain, I think you have misinterpreted me. I feel the best diet for longevity will be a low fat one -- one that will lead to low insulin-like activity, low IGF-1, low growth hormones, lower thyroid hormones, and slighting insulin resistant.

Now, If I wanted growth or extreme health "for the moment" I'd choose Duke's Diet. Different diets for different reasons.

There is no one best diet for everything -- Sorry, it doesn't exist. There are some things a low carb diet does better than a higher carb diet (easy weightloss, muscle growth, fast recovery). But overall, I feel a lower fat diet leads to better longevity.

Does this clear your confusion?

[Shepard]

http://high-fat-nutr...n.blogspot.com/

I like Pete's blog, but I find it odd that it seems to be recommended more and more often these days by people that don't really fully subscribe to his way of thinking. Saturated fat is good? Sure, lots of people behind that one. Fiber not that good for you? More and more people are getting behind that and referencing Hyperlipid. Restrict your protein intake? Yeah, some people are into that, but not that many from the paleo side of things. Fruits and vegetables are actually bad for you? No one seems to be getting on-board with that.

Edited by Shepard, 09 November 2009 - 05:23 AM.

[HaloTeK]

http://high-fat-nutr...n.blogspot.com/

I like Pete's blog, but I find it odd that it seems to be recommended more and more often these days by people that don't really fully subscribe to his way of thinking. Saturated fat is good? Sure, lots of people behind that one. Fiber not that good for you? More and more people are getting behind that and referencing Hyperlipid. Restrict your protein intake? Yeah, some people are into that, but not that many from the paleo side of things. Fruits and vegetables are actually bad for you? No one seems to be getting on-board with that.

Peter's sense of humor makes for a great blog, even if I don't believe everything he writes!

[Lufega]

I'm getting a bit lost here in arguments/counteraguments. Duke, TheFountain, what did you guys eat yesterday?

[eternaltraveler]

I think we can all agree processed grains and processed oils are sub optimal, as is eating animals that consume same. After this basic point the data is less clear and likely does have some individual and group variation.

[Skötkonung]

I've not had my methylglycoxal levels checked. I'd really like to see the full text of those studies to see if other factors are potentially to blame. For example, the Atkins Diet (and Atkins products) includes numerous inflammatory/processed oils, like soy bean oil. Foods sold by Atkins are quite often pro-disease causing. I never recommend any Atkins product.

I doubt it has much to do with the inflammatory components of Atkin's products (if Atkin's products were used at all). According to the abstract:

"This process produces ketosis and hence increased levels of β-hydroxybutyrate (BOB) acetoacetate (AcAc) and its by-products acetone and acetol. These products are potential precursors of the glycotoxin methylglyoxal."

Might be worth having your methylglyoxal if you have the available funds.

[kismet]

TheFountain, I think you have misinterpreted me. I feel the best diet for longevity will be a low fat one -- one that will lead to low insulin-like activity, low IGF-1, low growth hormones, lower thyroid hormones, and slighting insulin resistant.

Wow, low fat is still alive? Whatever the merrits of lowering IGF-1 within the normal range (and as explained ad nauseam there are not many). A low fat diet offsets those benefits easily by killing you. Or did something change since the lyon study started the era of high-moderate fat diet rule in nutrition science?

Fruits and vegetables are actually bad for you? No one seems to be getting on-board with that.

Which means they're not completely nuts, just slightly. I'm relieved.