107 replies to this topic

[HaloTeK]

TheFountain, I think you have misinterpreted me. I feel the best diet for longevity will be a low fat one -- one that will lead to low insulin-like activity, low IGF-1, low growth hormones, lower thyroid hormones, and slighting insulin resistant.

Wow, low fat is still alive? Whatever the merrits of lowering IGF-1 within the normal range (and as explained ad nauseam there are not many). A low fat diet offsets those benefits easily by killing you. Or did something change since the lyon study started the era of high-moderate fat diet rule in nutrition science?

Fruits and vegetables are actually bad for you? No one seems to be getting on-board with that.

Which means they're not completely nuts, just slightly. I'm relieved.

Low fat to me constitutes anything that is below 30% calories as fat. Much looser interpretation than the 10/10/80 club. Even 30% fat seems pretty low to me when most of the blogs I follow have people eating 60 to 85% fat. I also advocate a low protein diet.

Oh yeah -- I love how everyone is jumping on the saturated fat bandwagen these days. I'm still a monounsaturated fat fan <---- what's my main reason for that?? Monounsaturated fats dont't multiply insulins' effects as saturates do.

[DukeNukem]

I like Pete's blog, but I find it odd that it seems to be recommended more and more often these days by people that don't really fully subscribe to his way of thinking.

Shepard, if we only recommend blogs in which we agree 100%, we'd never have any to recommend!

Personally, my overall view (which is constantly improving, IMO), is a composite view, and not perfectly aligned with any nutritional blogger/author. Mark Sisson might come the closest.

Low fat to me constitutes anything that is below 30% calories as fat...

Most people think of "low-fat" to mean below 10% or 15%. For example, the Ornish low-fat diet is 10%, I think.

[Shepard]

Shepard, if we only recommend blogs in which we agree 100%, we'd never have any to recommend!

Sure, I guess I don't understand some of the reasoning that people use to justify their dietary choices. To me it appears that a line is drawn where people that are supposedly balking at popular nutrition won't cross. His reasoning for choosing certain dietary choices doesn't seem to be in conflict between his various ideas. It just seems like a picking and choosing method based on what people want to hear instead of taking what's good and leaving the bad. But, his stance on fruits and vegetables is more interesting to me than the rest of it, so I probably have a bias at work here, too.

[kenj]

I feel the best diet for longevity will be a low fat one -- one that will lead to low insulin-like activity, low IGF-1, low growth hormones, lower thyroid hormones, and slighting insulin resistant.

Now, If I wanted growth or extreme health "for the moment" I'd choose Duke's Diet. Different diets for different reasons.

Ah, remarkable close to my POV, FWIW, actually I'd recommend

wwww.endofstory.blogspot.com 8-)

[VesperLynd]

What would be the best diet for a middle-aged adult with a family history of heart disease, diabetes and obesity
who struggles to maintain her weight in a healthy range?

The interesting part is that in some cases, these diseases did not show up until the prior generation.

Before that, the family members were involved in daily physical activity related to running to farms and being involved in agriculture.

This tells me that exercise and weight control are as important as diet?

VL

[DukeNukem]

What would be the best diet for a middle-aged adult with a family history of heart disease, diabetes and obesity
who struggles to maintain her weight in a healthy range?

The interesting part is that in some cases, these diseases did not show up until the prior generation.

Before that, the family members were involved in daily physical activity related to running to farms and being involved in agriculture.

This tells me that exercise and weight control are as important as diet?

VL

Read Primal Blueprint, by Mark Sisson. Just came out this year. Trust me. It will add 10-20 years to your life. Everyone who eats this way has seen radical body fat loss, and radically improved health.
http://www.amazon.co...p...0628&sr=8-1

[mustardseed41]

I just bought the book. Thanks

[HaloTeK]

What would be the best diet for a middle-aged adult with a family history of heart disease, diabetes and obesity
who struggles to maintain her weight in a healthy range?

The interesting part is that in some cases, these diseases did not show up until the prior generation.

Before that, the family members were involved in daily physical activity related to running to farms and being involved in agriculture.

This tells me that exercise and weight control are as important as diet?

VL

Read Primal Blueprint, by Mark Sisson. Just came out this year. Trust me. It will add 10-20 years to your life. Everyone who eats this way has seen radical body fat loss, and radically improved health.
http://www.amazon.co...p...0628&sr=8-1

Alot of what he says is good but I worry about protein intake -- Very often Sisson has suggested protein intakes above 100 grams -- I'm not sure what he has said in the book, but I'm sure it's not too far from that.

Protein is easily the most damaging of the three macronutrients (to overall longevity). (I'm not counting people who overeat sugar)

If you are not eating processed food -- the difference between a well constructed Mediterranean or Okinawan diet will barely be any different than a paleo diet in terms of longevity. And if the paleo diet is heavy protein -- they will die faster.

[Skötkonung]

Alot of what he says is good but I worry about protein intake -- Very often Sisson has suggested protein intakes above 100 grams -- I'm not sure what he has said in the book, but I'm sure it's not too far from that.

Protein is easily the most damaging of the three macronutrients (to overall longevity). (I'm not counting people who overeat sugar)

If you are not eating processed food -- the difference between a well constructed Mediterranean or Okinawan diet will barely be any different than a paleo diet in terms of longevity. And if the paleo diet is heavy protein -- they will die faster.

Is it the IGF-1 aspect or the methionine aspect you are most concerned over?

Study: The effects of dietary protein on serum IGF-1 levels in adult humans
"Fasting blood samples were collected from subjects who completed a protein food frequency questionnaire (FFQ) and at least 3 24-hour quarterly dietary recalls within a 1-year period. Pregnant, weaning, and lactating women were excluded. Contrary to our hypothesis there was no association between fasting serum IGF-1 concentrations and total protein intake."

In the studies that do show a difference, it is usually small (p = .02 to .06) -- nothing like say one would achieve through supplementation. It makes you wonder if such a difference actually has an impact on longevity.

Edited by Skotkonung, 11 November 2009 - 01:44 AM.

[HaloTeK]

Alot of what he says is good but I worry about protein intake -- Very often Sisson has suggested protein intakes above 100 grams -- I'm not sure what he has said in the book, but I'm sure it's not too far from that.

Protein is easily the most damaging of the three macronutrients (to overall longevity). (I'm not counting people who overeat sugar)

If you are not eating processed food -- the difference between a well constructed Mediterranean or Okinawan diet will barely be any different than a paleo diet in terms of longevity. And if the paleo diet is heavy protein -- they will die faster.

Is it the IGF-1 aspect or the methionine aspect you are most concerned over?

For me, IGF-1.

Edited by HaloTeK, 11 November 2009 - 01:36 AM.

[HaloTeK]

Alot of what he says is good but I worry about protein intake -- Very often Sisson has suggested protein intakes above 100 grams -- I'm not sure what he has said in the book, but I'm sure it's not too far from that.

Protein is easily the most damaging of the three macronutrients (to overall longevity). (I'm not counting people who overeat sugar)

If you are not eating processed food -- the difference between a well constructed Mediterranean or Okinawan diet will barely be any different than a paleo diet in terms of longevity. And if the paleo diet is heavy protein -- they will die faster.

Is it the IGF-1 aspect or the methionine aspect you are most concerned over?

For me, IGF-1. However, methionine may also play a role.

[Skötkonung]

Sorry for doing multiple re-edits!

[Blue]

Alot of what he says is good but I worry about protein intake -- Very often Sisson has suggested protein intakes above 100 grams -- I'm not sure what he has said in the book, but I'm sure it's not too far from that.

Protein is easily the most damaging of the three macronutrients (to overall longevity). (I'm not counting people who overeat sugar)

If you are not eating processed food -- the difference between a well constructed Mediterranean or Okinawan diet will barely be any different than a paleo diet in terms of longevity. And if the paleo diet is heavy protein -- they will die faster.

Is it the IGF-1 aspect or the methionine aspect you are most concerned over?

Study: The effects of dietary protein on serum IGF-1 levels in adult humans
"Fasting blood samples were collected from subjects who completed a protein food frequency questionnaire (FFQ) and at least 3 24-hour quarterly dietary recalls within a 1-year period. Pregnant, weaning, and lactating women were excluded. Contrary to our hypothesis there was no association between fasting serum IGF-1 concentrations and total protein intake."

In the studies that do show a difference, it is usually small (p = .02 to .06) -- nothing like say one would achieve through supplementation. It makes you wonder if such a difference actually has an impact on longevity.

Studies? Do you have another?

There are certainly other studies that find that protein intake can affect IGF-1. But maybe only if energy intake is low. Like in this one:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2673798/

See
http://www.ncbi.nlm....5561/figure/F2/

and

"six of the CR volunteers to reduce their protein intake from 1.67 ± 0.1 g kg⁻¹ of body weight per day to a protein intake of 0.95 ± 0.1 g kg⁻¹ of body weight per day for 3 weeks. This short-term isocaloric reduction of protein intake resulted in a 25% reduction in serum IGF-1 concentration (from 194 ± 34 ng mL⁻¹ to 152 ± 41 ng mL⁻¹; p = 0.01) in the six CR individuals, suggesting that the high protein intake was preventing a reduction in IGF-1 levels in response to CR."

[Blue]

"The insulin-like growth factor (IGF) axis may play opposing roles in health and disease.The age-related declines in growth hormone and IGF-I may be associated with potentially deleterious changes in body composition and functioning, but recent studies suggest that IGF-I levels may be related to risk of prostate, colorectal, premenopausal breast, and possibly other cancers. Thus, we studied dietary influences on plasma IGF-I and IGF-I:IGF-binding protein-3 ratio in 753 men in the Health Professionals Follow-Up Study who completed a food frequency questionnaire. In this generally well-nourished population of middle-aged to elderly men, plasma IGF-I and IGF-I:IGF-binding protein-3 molar ratio tended to increase with higher intake of protein and minerals, including potassium, zinc, magnesium, calcium, and phosphorus. Men with relatively high intakes of total protein (top quintile) and minerals (top quintile of the five minerals combined) had a 25% higher mean plasma level of IGF-I compared with those in the low quintiles simultaneously. The major sources of animal protein, including milk, fish, and poultry, but not red meat, as well as total vegetable protein, were associated with an increase in IGF-I levels. Energy intake was positively related to plasma IGF-I level but only in men with body mass index <25 kg/m². The age-related decline in plasma IGF-I may be exacerbated by low intakes of protein and minerals. The potential role of these dietary factors on cancer risk through altering IGF-I levels requires study."
http://cebp.aacrjour...2/2/84.abstract

Edited by Blue, 13 November 2009 - 02:11 PM.

[Sillewater]

I can't find the study right now, but I remember reading one that said most of the IGF-1 increase was due to dairy in meat-eaters.

[TheFountain]

I can't find the study right now, but I remember reading one that said most of the IGF-1 increase was due to dairy in meat-eaters.

Dairy in meat or Dairy AND meat? Casein is has a significant role but I believe casein+meat consumption is alot worse.

[Sillewater]

Dairy in those who consume animal products. But there's no doubt (at least from research that I have read) that animal protein does raise IGF-1 more then vegetable protein. However I don't know I don't know how many of us on the board actually eat a high-protein diet. I would assume most consume 15-20% of our calories from protein, and some of us (like me) get maybe 1/4 of that protein intake from vegetables.

What I'm interested in is whether a ketogenic diet raises IGF-1, and I hope Skot get's his blood levels measured soon. I posted a study earlier showing that a ketogenic diet doesn't raise IFG-1.

[HaloTeK]

Dairy in those who consume animal products. But there's no doubt (at least from research that I have read) that animal protein does raise IGF-1 more then vegetable protein. However I don't know I don't know how many of us on the board actually eat a high-protein diet. I would assume most consume 15-20% of our calories from protein, and some of us (like me) get maybe 1/4 of that protein intake from vegetables.

What I'm interested in is whether a ketogenic diet raises IGF-1, and I hope Skot get's his blood levels measured soon. I posted a study earlier showing that a ketogenic diet doesn't raise IFG-1.

I'm pretty sure a ketogenic diet doesn't raise IGF-1 either (in fact, I think it would lower it), but who wants to stay on a ketogenic diet for any extended period? Unless I had cancer, I sure wouldn't.

[Skötkonung]

Dairy in those who consume animal products. But there's no doubt (at least from research that I have read) that animal protein does raise IGF-1 more then vegetable protein. However I don't know I don't know how many of us on the board actually eat a high-protein diet. I would assume most consume 15-20% of our calories from protein, and some of us (like me) get maybe 1/4 of that protein intake from vegetables.

What I'm interested in is whether a ketogenic diet raises IGF-1, and I hope Skot get's his blood levels measured soon. I posted a study earlier showing that a ketogenic diet doesn't raise IFG-1.

So far I've only got results back for my standard diet (which excluded casein for the four weeks leading up to the initial test) and non-casein ketogenic diet (NC-KD). I'm going to wait to post exact numbers for all three tests after my casein-KD finishes in mid December. Compared to my standard diet, the NC-KD showed a small lowering of IGF-1 and lipids, and a size-able lowering of blood glucose. It surprisingly raised T levels quite a bit (up to 873 ng/dl from 697 ng/dl). The first two weeks of the diet I did sub 20g carb and in the third and fourth weeks I did sub 50g carbs. Protein and calories remained the same between both the standard and NC-KD. I tested for ketosis using Ketostix. On NC-KD, fat came mostly from coconut milk / oil and beef. I had no problems maintaining weight and gaining strength on the NC-KD, although I did lose a little bodyfat. The only health problem was a staph infection on my skin that occurred during the first week of the casein-KD. I'm hoping the topical antibiotics don't affect my final blood results. I'm not sure the infection is related to the diet? I have noticed dry skin, but that could also be related to the changing weather and not the diet.

Obviously the short interval between these tests leaves a lot to be desired and plenty of room for speculation. For instance, if one is eating casein regularly, does it take longer than four weeks to reduce IGF-1 to normal levels again? Would IGF-1 have continued to fall if I stayed on the NC-KD for longer? Did the soy (from raw sprouted tofu) in my standard diet lower my T levels? Will me T levels continue to rise? I'll talk more about that in my final write up.

Edited by Skotkonung, 15 November 2009 - 11:26 AM.

[mustardseed41]

Duke I've been following Mark Sisson's Primal Blueprint eating for a few days now and am loving it. Figured I'd start before I got the book. Carbs are around 130g. I've read that many on his site indulge in pork rinds as a snack. God those are yummy. I feel damn guilty eating them but man......no carbs...lol......
There are a few things I don't subscribe to from Mark such as his downplay of the importance of water intake and his love of the sun.
What things about his diet/lifestyle do you not buy into?

[DukeNukem]

Duke I've been following Mark Sisson's Primal Blueprint eating for a few days now and am loving it. Figured I'd start before I got the book. Carbs are around 130g. I've read that many on his site indulge in pork rinds as a snack. God those are yummy. I feel damn guilty eating them but man......no carbs...lol......
There are a few things I don't subscribe to from Mark such as his downplay of the importance of water intake and his love of the sun.
What things about his diet/lifestyle do you not buy into?

I don't think he advocates over-exposure to the sun. Certainly never get a burn.

His Damage Control supplement needs work, but overall I like Mark's "blueprint."

IMO, where he comes up short is not using hormone supplementation and other key supplements.

[mustardseed41]

Duke I've been following Mark Sisson's Primal Blueprint eating for a few days now and am loving it. Figured I'd start before I got the book. Carbs are around 130g. I've read that many on his site indulge in pork rinds as a snack. God those are yummy. I feel damn guilty eating them but man......no carbs...lol......
There are a few things I don't subscribe to from Mark such as his downplay of the importance of water intake and his love of the sun.
What things about his diet/lifestyle do you not buy into?

I don't think he advocates over-exposure to the sun. Certainly never get a burn.

His Damage Control supplement needs work, but overall I like Mark's "blueprint."

IMO, where he comes up short is not using hormone supplementation and other key supplements.

Thanks. I'm just a skin care freak so I slather on the sunscreen. Plenty of D3 for me. (5000iu)
I agree about the hormone/supplement issue. His damage control product is god awful expensive.

[TheFountain]

Just one question regarding your bloodwork Duke. How do you know the plethora of supplements you are taking, such as niacine, is not significantly altering your markers as opposed to the diet you are on?

[david ellis]

Just curious DukeNukem, but do you get your methylglycoxal levels checked?

Although it is only one data point, a study published not so long ago discovered that long term adherents to a low-carb/high-fat diet had vastly raised methylglycoxal levels (leading to concentrations even worse than those seen in poorly controlled diabetics). Methylglycoxal, as you may know, is a major precursor of AGE’s that is also, ironically, produced within the cells of diabetic patients when they are forced to take in more glucose than they can immediately process. So while you might be enjoying excellent lipids, you could be setting yourself up for major glycotoxin related damage.

Study: Ketosis Leads to Increased Methylglyoxal Production on the Atkins Diet

This data point has yet to be verified by another study, so I don't know how relevant it will be. Especially in light of the well known enhanced antioxidant capability when on a high-fat / low-carb diet.

Study: Effect of Short-Term Ketogenic Diet on Redox Status of Human Blood

Methylglycoxal testing is expensive and probably requires a research lab. If I had the money to run this test, I certainly would. Especially since I have been on a high-fat / low-carb diet (ketogenic) diet for years.

You were saying Duke that you have over 80 blood tests that you take regularly. I take a lot of blood tests too. Two of my tests provide insight into two subjects that you have given recommendations - A paleo diet recommendation and the advice to reduce fish oil intake to one gram. Skotkonung was wondering what your methylglyxocal tests might look like.

One test that can provide insight into how much DNA oxidative damage there is (description from wikipedia)

8-Oxo-2'-deoxyguanosine (8-oxo-dG)is an oxidized derivative of deoxyguanosine. 8-oxo-dG is one of the major products of DNA oxidation.[1] Concentrations of 8-oxo-dG within a cell are a measurement of oxidative stress. I can comment on my test results to maybe shed some light on methylglyoxal causing lots of damage to me. There is no strong sign of extra damage to me. The urine test detects 4.5 ng/mg creatine. A score of 7.5 ng/mg is a 95th percentile test result. My score is on the high end, but still within the healthy range. I am in the top 85% of the healthy range. Healthy range- means the range color coded to cover results consistent with good health. I am a believer in paleo diets, but when the tests were taken, extra carb consumption had driven my weight up to former maxes (204 lbs). Bottom line, no evidence of methylgycoxal doing any damage beyond that seen with normal blood glucose levels.

Another test result of interest is lipid peroxidation. DukeNukem recommended holding fish oil consumption to one gram because of oxidation potential of EPA/DHA. I took 5 -10 times that amount for a total EPA/DHA intake between 1.3/2.6 EPA/DHA grams . (1-2 tsp or 5-10 grams fish oil/day). My lipid peroxides (TBARS) test result was 0.88 nmol/mL. A result in the lower third of the healthy range. No support found for Duke's concern about high levels of peroxidation.

I spend good money on my supplements and decided that I want to know for sure that what I am doing was worth it so I took these tests, plus many more. These tests are very common in research literature and with modern HPLC and other modern techniques are priced very reasonably.

[Sillewater]

Does the lipid peroxidation test measure blood levels or mitochondrial levels. I'm interested in mitochondrial levels.

[david ellis]

Does the lipid peroxidation test measure blood levels or mitochondrial levels. I'm interested in mitochondrial levels.

The lipid peroxidation test measures lipid peroxidation, the lipids in the cell wall. DNA damage by ROS is measured by the other test - 8-oxo-dG. I don't know what proportion of the DNA repair belongs to the mitochondria.

I am just broad stroking things here, I am not worrying about things at the mitochrondial level yet. The good thing for me is that I am in a healthy zone with both lipid peroxidation and 8-oxo-dG and I see some things I can do to improve. B vitamins are an important part of DNA repair and I have high levels of alpha-keto-beta-methylvalerate, a functional marker of thiamine and other B vitamins insuffiency. Maybe when I take care of the insufficiencies I can improve my 8-oxo-dG test results. Right now, I am puzzled by the insufficiency because I supplemented with plenty of benfothiamine.(about 100 mg/day) Maybe something will stick out when I look at my supplementation in greater detail.

[Michael]

Checking through my father's old library of books, I found a 1965 book, Let's Get Well, by Adelle Davis, one of the nation's top recognized nutritional experts and authors (masters degree) at the time. ...

To be accurate, Davis certainly had a cult following in the health-food crowd, and was right about some important things (refined carbs, partially-hydrogenated vegetable oil, etc), she was dismissed as a crank by academic nutritionists and public health folk. As the wiki page says, "Some members of the scientific and medical communities have criticized and discredited her published works both during and after her lifetime." And at the skeptical extreme, Victor Herbert was quite scathing...

It's a mistake to think I dislike carbs. However, there's too much evidence, IMO, that natural animal fats are required for optimal health. And I'm actually stunned that anyone nowadays would still believe a low-fat diet is healthy. Low-fat diets lose in all studies I've seen versus high-fat diets.

I would certainly agree that low-fat diets are useless; the question is really about which fats to consume, in generous quantities. No time to address this question separately, which has I see mushroomed into a megathread of its own, tho' I think the important issues were covered in the originating post, and the counterarguments raised in the megathread clearly evidentially weak or logically flawed.

Also, animal-based diets always come out on top versus non-animal diets, such as these two:

Carbs push HDL down and triglycerides up:
http://www.jacn.org/...stract/28/2/150

Agreed -- but that has nothing to do with whether animal- vs plant-based diets are best. It's entirely possible to eat a diet high or low in any macronutrient on omnivorous or vegetarian diets, or anything in between.
And...

A comparison of the effect of diets containing beef protein and plant proteins on blood lipids of healthy young men
Mean plasma high-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels were significantly (p less than 0.05) elevated at the end of the 21-day period when the animal protein diet was consumed (48 +/- 3 mg/dl) compared to the period when the plant protein diet was fed (42 +/- 2 mg/dl). Mean serum triglyceride values were significantly (p less than 0.05) increased at day 7 of the plant protein diet period (136 +/- 19 mg/dl) compared to the same time period when the animal protein diet was consumed (84 +/- 12 mg/dl).
http://www.ajcn.org/...stract/40/5/982

In short, animal protein (which includes animals fats) elevated HDL (a good thing) and left LDL and triglycerides unchanged (as should be expected).

Since you would reasonably expect that, all things being equal, a "normal" diet made up of animal protein would lead to more saturated fat intake (and thus higher total and LDL cholesterol) than one based on plant proteins, I was pretty sure that there would be something weird about these diets. And sure enough, when you look at the daily menus for the 2 diets (Table 2, page 984 of the full text -- the tables don't neatly cut-and-paste), you see that not only did they use lean beef patties for the meat, but that the "plant-protein" diet contained 45 grams (~3.3 tablespoons) of Beef tallow margarine, whereas the "beef protein" dieters got 45 g of Becel Vegetable oil margarine instead. (And no, Becel was not full of trans-fat at the time (1984) when this study was performed: Becel has been genuinely trans fat free (no partially hydrogenated vegetable oil) since 1978:

Ingredients: Canola and sunflower oils 74%, water, modified palm and palm kernel oils 6%, salt 1.8%, whey protein concentrate 1.4%, soy lecithin 0.2%, vegetable monoglycerides, potassium sorbate, vegetable colour, artificial flavour, citric acid, vitamin A palmitate, vitamin D3, alpha-tocopherol acetate (vitamin E).

Table 4 confirms that the content of fatty acids was similar between the 2 diets -- and if anything, longer-chain SaFA were slightly higher in the "plant protein" diet.

This study is actually somewhat informative about the relative effects of protein amino acid composition on the lipid profile; but as a test of the effects of real-world plant-sourced vs animal-sourced protein-containing foods, this study just doesn't rate.

Edited by Michael, 06 February 2010 - 08:09 PM.

[Sillewater]

Just wanted to add an update to this thread regarding heart disease.

First I want to post Peter's Hyperlipid posts about Lp(a):
Lipoprotein(a) Bantu recap
Lipoprotein(a) Bantu recap 2

Then a very long post, but definitely well worth the read at CRSociety:
Monounsaturated Fats and CVD - The Final Nail?

[oehaut]

Just wanted to add an update to this thread regarding heart disease.

First I want to post Peter's Hyperlipid posts about Lp(a):
Lipoprotein(a) Bantu recap
Lipoprotein(a) Bantu recap 2

Then a very long post, but definitely well worth the read at CRSociety:
Monounsaturated Fats and CVD - The Final Nail?

Yes, I saw this post too yesterday.

It is very interesting, and worth considering. But personnaly i'm having 2 critics:

It's based on animal model, and I really don't think animal makes a good case for studying nutrition in human, since they seem to have very different biochemical pathway involved

Just look, for example,

Differences in regulatory properties between human and rat glucokinase regulatory protein

Comparison of the expression and activity of the lipogenic pathway in human and rat adipose tissue

Physiological differences between human and rat primary hepatocytes in response to liver X receptor activation by 3-[3-[N-(2-chloro-3-trifluoromethylbenzyl)-(2,2-diphenylethyl)amino]propyloxy]phenylacetic acid hydrochloride (GW3965).

And this is worth reading too


Animal research: Grey Matters

So clearly, we are not rats.

And the second point is that i'm always curious as why someone would use Ornish trial to prove that a low-fat is necessary to reverse atherosclerosis plaque, when in the trial they actualy stopped smoking, ate less refined carbs, more veggies and start exercise.

Am I mistaken and this kind of study can be use to prove such a point?

Edited by oehaut, 13 April 2010 - 11:51 AM.

[Sillewater]

Yea, I read those animal studies too. The Grey Matters one was posted on M&M.

I definitely agree that the Ornish trial is fairly useless when determining the effects of dietary fat intake on plaques. However what I found interesting in was the papers Al posted on the Cholesteryl Oleate being atherogenic, and apparently being raised by Monounsaturated Fats. If you compare that with Peter's discussion of Lp(a) with vegetables (or lack of meat products) then it seems there's a trend. I know this is a huge leap of reasoning, so for now I will continue to eat large amounts of vegetables but I just find it interesting. That's all.

Also in this post I had some studies from M&M showing that possible oxidized EPA is good for you: Here