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Heart disease -- it's your own fault


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#91 tunt01

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 07:36 PM

I also have a hard time relying too much on the animal studies, particularly the green monkey one. But there is definitely a lot of confounding evidence. The only issue clearly important is to eat long chain PUFA omega-3's.

Maybe controlled and balanced mono/sat is the best call now, until the evidence sorts itself out. And maybe we weren't designed to eat a diet with a lot of fat to begin with. The important nutrients coming from animal fats are so minor in their numerical necessity, that Ornish may end up being right even though his study is not useful. The amount of "animal fat" a person needs in a day to achieve optimal vitamin intake is fairly small.

#92 oehaut

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 08:23 PM

Yea, I read those animal studies too. The Grey Matters one was posted on M&M.

I definitely agree that the Ornish trial is fairly useless when determining the effects of dietary fat intake on plaques. However what I found interesting in was the papers Al posted on the Cholesteryl Oleate being atherogenic, and apparently being raised by Monounsaturated Fats. If you compare that with Peter's discussion of Lp(a) with vegetables (or lack of meat products) then it seems there's a trend. I know this is a huge leap of reasoning, so for now I will continue to eat large amounts of vegetables but I just find it interesting. That's all.

Also in this post I had some studies from M&M showing that possible oxidized EPA is good for you: Here


What is M&M? Sorry for the n00b question.

I haven't taken the time to read peter's post on Lp(a). I'll do this soon I guess, i'm done with school for the summer soon so I'll have plenty of free time to read.

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#93 oehaut

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 08:25 PM

I also have a hard time relying too much on the animal studies, particularly the green monkey one. But there is definitely a lot of confounding evidence. The only issue clearly important is to eat long chain PUFA omega-3's.


I think that the epidemiology quite points out clearly that PUFAs-6 could be beneficial too.... whatever speculation we can make about them.


And maybe we weren't designed to eat a diet with a lot of fat to begin with. The important nutrients coming from animal fats are so minor in their numerical necessity, that Ornish may end up being right even though his study is not useful. The amount of "animal fat" a person needs in a day to achieve optimal vitamin intake is fairly small.


True, and the jury is still out on higher-fat diet. But, not to make an authorative call, isn't MR himself saying that low-fat diet are worthless?

#94 tunt01

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 08:45 PM

I think that the epidemiology quite points out clearly that PUFAs-6 could be beneficial too.... whatever speculation we can make about them.



i'm not suggesting 0 pufas-6 is ideal, but low total pufa, targeting 1:1 ratio in omega-3/omega-6.

watch this video re: epidemiology

http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=40307

#95 DairyProducts

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 09:21 PM

What is M&M? Sorry for the n00b question.

It's a health website with a forum - http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/
Somewhat similar to Imminst, but with a little more testosterone.

#96 Skötkonung

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 09:21 PM

I also have a hard time relying too much on the animal studies, particularly the green monkey one. But there is definitely a lot of confounding evidence. The only issue clearly important is to eat long chain PUFA omega-3's.

Aren't you concerned with the increased bleed times seen in those with high n-3 PUFA and MUFA intake.

Plasma levels of von Willebrand factor in non-insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus are influenced by dietary monounsaturated fatty acids.
"We have previously demonstrated a lowering effect on von Willebrand Factor (vWF) of a diet rich in monounsaturated fatty acids (MUFA) as compared with a high-carbohydrate diet. In the present study 16 non-insulin dependent diabetic (NIDDM) subjects participated in a cross-over experiment on an out-patient basis comparing the effects on vWF of three weeks treatments with two diets similar in carbohydrate and protein content, one rich in MUFA (30 energy %) and one rich in polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) (30 energy %). Before and on the last day of the two diets, the levels of vWF, fibrinogen, fibronectin and alpha 2-macroglobulin were measured. After 3 weeks diet intervention vWF levels were lower after the MUFA regimen compared with the PUFA diet (mean +/- SD) (1.15 +/- 0.36 vs 1.32 +/- 0.42 U/ml, p = 0.003). Similar and unchanged levels of fibrinogen, fibronectin and alpha 2-macroglobulin were seen. In conclusion, three weeks on a diet rich in MUFA lowers vWF as compared with a PUFA rich diet, suggesting a beneficial effect of MUFA on the endothelium in NIDDM patients."

Decrease in von Willebrand factor levels after a high-monounsaturated-fat diet in non-insulin-dependent diabetic subjects.
"High levels of von Willebrand factor (vWF) have been reported in diabetics with vascular complications, suggesting a role for this protein in the development of cardiovascular complications in non-insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus (NIDDM). Recently, a diet rich in monounsaturated fatty acids (MUFA) has been found to improve glycemic control and decrease diurnal blood pressure as compared with a high-carbohydrate (H-CHO) diet in NIDDM subjects. To study the impact of MUFA on the hemostatic system, we compared the levels of vWF, fibrinogen, fibronectin, and alpha 2-macroglobulin before and after 3 weeks on a high-MUFA (H-MUFA) diet and on an isocaloric H-CHO diet in 15 NIDDM subjects. In a crossover study, the patients were randomly assigned to a H-CHO diet (50% carbohydrate, 30% fat [10% MUFA]) or a H-MUFA diet (30% carbohydrate, 50% fat [30% MUFA]). Before and on the last day of the two diets, vWF, fibrinogen, fibronectin, and alpha 2-macroglobulin levels were measured. The H-MUFA diet caused a decrease in vWF from 1.31 +/- 0.08 to 1.13 +/- 0.08 U/mL (P < .004), whereas an unchanged level was observed after a H-CHO diet (1.19 +/- 0.11 v 1.25 +/- 0.11 U/mL, NS). The relative changes in vWF during 3 weeks on a H-MUFA and on a H-CHO diet attained -12.5% +/- 3.2% versus 5.7% +/- 3.5%, respectively (P < .0001). Furthermore, unchanged levels of fibrinogen, fibronectin, and alpha 2-macroglobulin were seen after usage of the two diets.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)"

Omega-3 fatty acids, fish oil, alpha-linolenic acid
"Omega-3 fatty acids may increase the risk of bleeding, although there is little evidence of significant bleeding risk at lower doses. Very large intakes of fish oil/omega-3 fatty acids ("Eskimo" amounts) may increase the risk of hemorrhagic (bleeding) stroke. High doses have also been associated with nosebleed and blood in the urine. Fish oils appear to decrease platelet aggregation and prolong bleeding time, increase fibrinolysis (breaking down of blood clots), and may reduce von Willebrand factor."

Effect of fish oil concentrates on hemorheological and hemostatic aspects of diabetes mellitus: a preliminary study.
"Fish oil concentrates (Max EPA) were given without other diet modification for eight weeks to five insulin-dependent diabetics and five healthy volunteers, in order to determine their effect on possible in vitro indices of thrombosis. Cholesterol, HDL, LDL, fasting blood sugar, hemoglobin A1c, platelet count, and the osmotic fragility of red blood cells were not significantly changed from baseline values after eight weeks of fish oil consumption. Serum triglyceride levels were lowered by the fish oil (diabetics 130 +/- 23 to 89 +/- 26 mg/dl: normals 107 +/- 16 to 57 +/- 5 mg/dl). Nine out of ten subjects required more arachidonic acid to aggregate their platelets, and six out of ten required more collagen. Whole blood viscosity at low shear rates was increased in diabetics before the fish oil ingestion, and was reduced both in normals and in diabetics after eight weeks of treatment. Before fish oil administration, the diabetics had higher levels of von Willebrand Factor (vWF) (208 +/- 31%) than did controls (117 +/- 26%). There was a statistically significant decrease of serum von Willebrand Factor both in diabetics (p less than 0.01) and in normals (p less than 0.05) after six weeks of treatment. Analysis of the multimeric composition of the vWF indicated that the vWF molecule was not altered. Addition of eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) or crude fish oil to human umbilical cord endothelial cell cultures did not change vWF levels in the supernatant. Whether these changes in platelet aggregation, whole blood viscosity and vWF can actually be translated into an in vivo amelioration of the vascular complications in diabetes remains to be determined in a carefully controlled clinical trial."


I don't know about you guys, but when I take a high dose of fish oil (over 500mg EPA/DHA), I get profound bruising (see attached image). I also get dangerous spikes in blood pressure and dizzy spells when sitting down or standing up. My suspicion is that n-3 PUFA, and perhaps even MUFA, are lowering my vWF and causing mild hemophilia. I tend to do best on a low PUFA diet, balanced between n-3 and n-6, with most fats coming from SFA, and MUFA in seasonably available whole foods, i.e. low EVOO, nut consumption, high animal fat.

Attached File  2010_02_03_20.33.03.jpg   87.93KB   36 downloads

#97 Skötkonung

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 10:54 PM

I'm getting less excited about PUFA the more I read:
http://pmid.us/16620...976221 17702671
PUFAs are sensitive to oxidative damage and therefore species with long life spans tends to minimize their use.

#98 tunt01

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 11:21 PM

I tend to do best on a low PUFA diet, balanced between n-3 and n-6, with most fats coming from SFA, and MUFA in seasonably available whole foods, i.e. low EVOO, nut consumption, high animal fat.



this is exactly what I was suggesting, maybe i wasn't being very clear. the last 2 days my lowest fat intake was from PUFAs, balanced 1:1 between n-3/n-6. SFA and MUFA mostly equal (little more MUFA due to avocados).

i think the polyphenol value of EVOO is very significant, and i'm not prepared to totally eliminate it, but no more than 1 tablespoon a day now. i also have a bit of coconut oil daily and a bit of high-fat dairy. it's balanced SFA/MUFA.

but honestly, my mind isn't definitively made up, except on the PUFA issue really. TBH, i have an appointment w/ the doc in a few weeks and i want to get some bloodwork done and see what the lipid #s.

Edited by prophets, 13 April 2010 - 11:24 PM.


#99 oehaut

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Posted 14 April 2010 - 01:22 AM

Thanks prophet, i'll watch this 2morrow.

Skot, there's no way I can keep up with all the litterature you post. Actually, there's no way I can keep up with everything I want to read. Damn.

#100 Skötkonung

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Posted 14 April 2010 - 11:17 PM

thx for this link. along the lines of my thinking. low PUFA, moderate, but balanced SFA/MUFA. but the other question is then, how much total fat as a % of caloric intake (assuming constant ratios)?

Well, you might not be crazy about my macros. Here is how my diet breaks down for yesterday:

2282 calories, 166g protein (29%), 49g carbohydrate (8%), and 161g fat (63%). Oddly enough, on days like this when my calories dip very low, I am never hungry. Most days I eat more (2,700-3,000 as target), taking calories from protein and fat.

Lipids break down as such:
- 71.8g saturated (45%)
- 62.5g mono-unsaturated (39%)
- 10.9g poly-unsaturated (6%)

So, similar to you I am close to balanced on SFA / MUFA, low PUFA.

Edit - off topic:
Looking at my vitamin profile, I am not quite exceeding my E and B1 requirements.

Edited by Skotkonung, 14 April 2010 - 11:22 PM.


#101 tunt01

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Posted 14 April 2010 - 11:25 PM

yea, i saw your daily diet in the other thread. to each his own.

skot, i read on bodybuilding.com that MUFA intake was preferred to keep Testosterone levels elevated. any idea if that is that so?

#102 Skötkonung

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Posted 14 April 2010 - 11:32 PM

yea, i saw your daily diet in the other thread. to each his own.

skot, i read on bodybuilding.com that MUFA intake was preferred to keep Testosterone levels elevated. any idea if that is that so?

Not heard that specifically, but I am aware that ratio of fats and composition of diet does influence testosterone levels.

In this study, for instance, they tried various ratios of lipid on male rats and measured testosterone:
Dietary fat influences testosterone, cholesterol, aminopeptidase A, and blood pressure in male rats.

If you can't read the study, you can see some of the results in this thread:
http://www.mindandmu...mp;#entry594195

It appears SFA / MUFA do produce a better rise (not so much MUFA alone). I do know that my testosterone is on the high side (800ng /dL - 1000ng / dL) and my diet is characteristically been high in fat. ;) Didn't you say you had a similar problem?

Edited by Skotkonung, 14 April 2010 - 11:33 PM.


#103 Skötkonung

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Posted 14 April 2010 - 11:39 PM

I'm going to syndicate some of the images on this thread:

Attached File  fish.jpg   56.21KB   52 downloads

Attached File  goodfatsbadforyou.JPG   97.76KB   62 downloads

#104 tunt01

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Posted 14 April 2010 - 11:57 PM

It appears SFA / MUFA do produce a better rise (not so much MUFA alone). I do know that my testosterone is on the high side (800ng /dL - 1000ng / dL) and my diet is characteristically been high in fat. ;) Didn't you say you had a similar problem?


thx for the link. i don't think i have a T problem. last time I got tested for T was a few years ago, and I came out pretty high about 800, IIRC. But I was eating egg & cheese sandwiches every AM, during that period. it was pre-CR. I should be getting it tested again soon.

this chart was kind of interesting, from the same thread. notice the pufa/mufa chart. also, higher protein seems negatively correlated against T levels (highlighting the importance of dietary fat, over protein). if i can just somehow rationalize this with the, "SFA makes you stupid thread". the upside of significant amounts of animal fat against the potential negatives. dunno...
Posted Image

Edited by prophets, 14 April 2010 - 11:59 PM.


#105 tunt01

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Posted 15 April 2010 - 12:06 AM

here are the correlation coefficients from that study. it's only 12 subjects, so not a major study, but interesting datapoint.

Posted Image

#106 Sillewater

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Posted 17 April 2010 - 07:46 PM

Cholesterol screening and the Gold Effect

Authors: Alison Hann;Stephen Peckham
Affiliations: School of Health Science, University of Swansea, UK
Department of Public Health Policy, London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, UK
DOI: 10.1080/13698570903499608

#107 HaloTeK

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 08:48 PM

Kismet, I'm not going to argue that argue that there isn't evidence against saturated fat -- just wanted your comment on these studies:

<h1 class="title">Compared with saturated fatty acids, dietary monounsaturated fatty acids and carbohydrates increase atherosclerosis and VLDL cholesterol levels in LDL receptor-deficient, but not apolipoprotein E-deficient, mice.</h1>Merkel M, Velez-Carrasco W, Hudgins LC, Breslow JL.

Laboratory of Biochemical Geneticsand Metabolism, The Rockefeller University, New York, NY 10021, USA.

<h3 class="abstract_label">Abstract</h3>Heart-healthy dietary recommendations include decreasing the intake of saturated fatty acids (SFA). However, the relative benefit of replacing SFA with monounsaturated fatty acids (MUFA), polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA), or carbohydrates (CARB) is still being debated. We have used two mouse models of atherosclerosis, low density lipoprotein receptor-deficient (LDLRKO) and apolipoprotein E-deficient (apoEKO) mice to measure the effects of four isocaloric diets enriched with either SFA, MUFA, PUFA, or CARB on atherosclerotic lesion area and lipoprotein levels. In LDLRKO mice, compared with the SFA diet, the MUFA and CARB diets significantly increased atherosclerosis in both sexes, but the PUFA diet had no effect. The MUFA and CARB diets also increased very low density lipoprotein-cholesterol (VLDL-C) and LDL-cholesterol (LDL-C) in males and VLDL-C levels in females. Analysis of data from LDLRKO mice on all diets showed that atherosclerotic lesion area correlated positively with VLDL-C levels (males: r = 0.47, P < 0.005; females: r = 0.52, P < 0.001). In contrast, in apoEKO mice there were no significant dietary effects on atherosclerosis in either sex. Compared with the SFA diet, the CARB diet significantly decreased VLDL-C in males and the MUFA, PUFA, and CARB diets decreased VLDL-C and the CARB diet decreased LDL-C in females. In summary, in LDLRKO mice the replacement of dietary SFA by either MUFA or CARB causes a proportionate increase in both atherosclerotic lesion area and VLDL-C. There were no significant dietary effects on atherosclerotic lesion area in apoEKO mice. These results are surprising and suggest that, depending on the underlying genotype, dietary MUFA and CARB can actually increase atherosclerosis susceptibility, probably by raising VLDL-C levels through a non-LDL receptor, apoE-dependent pathway.




J. Mark Brown, Gregory S. Shelness and Lawrence L. Rudel1 Posted Image

(1) Department of Pathology, Section on Lipid Science, Wake Forest University School of Medicine, Medical Center Boulevard, Winston-Salem, NC 27157-1040, USA Published online: 16 March 2008

<a name="Abs1">Abstract A substantial body of epidemiologic data has shed light on the potential protective effects of the Mediterranean diet against atherosclerosis in humans. Many believe the reason the Mediterranean diet is atheroprotective is the elevated consumption of olive oil, an oil poor in saturated fatty acids (SFA) and highly enriched in monounsaturated fatty acids (MUFA). Based on human feeding studies, the American Heart Association and the US Food and Drug Administration have advocated for the consumption of MUFA as a more healthy replacement for SFA. However, using experimental animal models in which extent of atherosclerosis can be directly measured following dietary intervention, it has been demonstrated that MUFA-enriched diets are not atheroprotective when compared with SFA-enriched diets. Hence, the current body of experimental evidence refutes the idea that MUFAs per se are atheroprotective; therefore much additional work is needed to determine which aspects of the Mediterranean diet are indeed heart healthy.



Honestly, I've always favored Monos vs Saturated fats, but now I'm thinking I should probably limit both -- but i'd really like hope EVOO doesn't contribute to heart disease (or if at least hope the polyphenols protect us a bit). I saw your earlier post -- not sure If i like my membranes increasing their peroxidation index by increase the n-3 percentage by a low fat diet. And i don't trust most grains.

#108 Sillewater

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 07:52 AM

Doing some more reading and came upon these two interesting studies:

Annu Rev Physiol. 2010 Mar 17;72:219-46.
Macrophages, inflammation, and insulin resistance.
Olefsky JM, Glass CK.

Circ Res. 2010 Jan 8;106(1):58-67.
The impact of macrophage insulin resistance on advanced atherosclerotic plaque progression.
Tabas I, Tall A, Accili D.




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