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Ten months of research condensed - A total newbies guide to nootropics


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#61 spider

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 08:26 PM

Choline Bitartrate is an ok source of choline, but it's likely not nootropic.
Phosphatidylserine is good for reducing cortisol levels, and that's about it.


I remember taking PS for the first time in college and noticing a very noticeable effect. It doesn't produce the same effect in me any more, but I attribute this to normal PS levels. I continue to take it based on my convincing first experience, even if this is not a scientifically valid reason to take it.

Broader claims are found on http://www.phosphatidylserine.net/

I'm looking for research studies to support it, but after 30 minutes of google searches, the best I could come up with was this page:
http://www.discount-...idyl_serine.htm

Phosphadidyl serine does all this through the following actions: PS stimulates the release of dopamine (a mood regulator that also controls physical sensations and movement), increases the production of acetylcholine (necessary for learning and memory), enhances brain glucose metabolism (the fuel used for brain activity), reduces levels of cortisol (a stress hormone), and boosts the activity of nerve growth factor, which oversees the health of cholinergic neurons.

The nerve cell membrane is the site where molecules of sodium and potassium exchange electrons, causing the electrical impulse to be generated. This bioelectric current then travels along the membrane to trigger the release of neurotransmitters. These are the chemical messengers that cross synapses (gaps between nerve cells) to relay information to neighboring nerve cells. This sets other electrical currents in motion -- along thousands of other nerve cells. This happens billions of times each second, and is how the brain and nerves coordinate and communicate with the rest of the body.

Phosphatidyl Serine has a very important function in the nerve cell membrane. As a key bio-structural molecule, PS provides vital support for the membrane proteins that enable nerve cells to communicate and grow.


Untill proven otherwise, I agree with Rwac.

Most experts belief that PS taken orally is broken down even before it reaches the BBB or is not able to through it.

#62 rwac

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 09:01 PM

I remember taking PS for the first time in college and noticing a very noticeable effect. It doesn't produce the same effect in me any more, but I attribute this to normal PS levels. I continue to take it based on my convincing first experience, even if this is not a scientifically valid reason to take it.

Broader claims are found on http://www.phosphatidylserine.net/


That's interesting. PS used to be derived from bovine brain. There was some indication that this was nootropic.

Then, due to the mad cow scare, it was changed to a soy-derivative with a different side chain ("phosphatidyl"), without the same effect.

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#63 Solarclimax

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 10:39 PM

Here is a YouTube video of another guy who uses Choline Bitartrate for their choline source:


I would be carefull on using this as an example, he seems to be advertising certain products

Edited by Solarclimax, 09 January 2010 - 10:39 PM.


#64 hamishm00

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 11:46 AM

Yup, great thread.

I also recommend ALCAR Arginate for neurite growth which is probably comparable to supplementing with NGF itself. Not proven in vivo yet, but the in vitro studies are promising.



Some say you should take this with alpha lipholic acid. But is there one that has both mixed together as a pill or you have to take separate? I tend to miss a pill here and there sometimes so it would be easier having one that contains all in one, like a multi for example.
thanks


Take them separately because the ALA and the ALCAR react together to form some kind of polymer like mush in your gut if you take them at the same time. Not good.

#65 The Likud Is Behind It

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 08:26 PM

When it comes to B vitamins, I have also read positive experiences regarding the consumption of Methylcobalamin, the only form of vitamin B12 that is used by the central nervous system.


Some people have read through my old posts. I was originally using SAMe as a nootropic. This isn't because it's supported by any studies, but because it made such a huge difference in my mental clarity almost immediately. I was surprised. I had just gotten sober after a long period of drinking and needed to restore the balance of neurotransmitters etc in my brain. Then I learned that SAMe is vitally important for methylation reactions. Methylation reactions are necessary to transform the 8 amino acids to 100 specific function amino acids. It was a stunning development.

I have continued to use SAMe off and on, but I did not include it on this list because it is not a traditional nootropic.

Today I got my methylcobalamin. I took to 1mg tablets sublingually. I felt subtly but noticeably better very soon afterwards. I decided to try to find some research on it's mechanism of action. Turns out, methylcobalamin donates methyl groups just like SAMe, and is even required for the adequate production of endogenous SAMe. I think I can stop taking SAMe now because I'm taking methylcobalamin, which is responsible for the whole cycle in the first place. Not only does it produce SAMe, but it diminishes homocysteine levels to produce the SAMe, which is an effect you don't get simply by supplementing with SAMe alone.

http://170.107.206.7.../vit_0262.shtml

B12 and folate are cofactors in the conversion of homocysteine to methionine and methionine is the precursor of the transmethylating agent S-adenosylmethionine (SAMe). SAMe is involved in the synthesis of myelin basic protein which can become defective in the context of B12 deficiency. Defective myelin basic protein and resultant defective myelination can account, in large part, for the peripheral neuropathy of B12 deficiency. Hyperhomocysteinemia, another consequence of B12 deficiency, may also contribute to the neurological effects of deficiency of the vitamin. Elevated homocysteine levels may cause cerebrovascular effects which could lead to cognitive changes. Decreased brain levels of SAMe may result in disturbances in certain neurotransmitters. SAMe is involved in key methylation reactions in catecholamine synthesis and metabolism in the brain. These neurotransmitters are known to be important in maintaining the affective state. In the elderly, depression often presents as cognitive changes, including dementia.


The two coenzyme forms of vitamin B12 are methylcobalamin and 5'-deoxyadenosylcobalamin (adenosylcobalamin). Methylcobalamin is a cofactor for the enzyme methionine synthase, while adenosycobalamin is a cofactor for the enzyme L-methylmalonyl coenzyme A (methylmalonyl-CoA) mutase. Methionine synthase is one of the key enzymes in intermediary metabolism. It catalyzes the conversion of homocysteine to methionine. Its folate partner in the reaction is 5-methyltetrahydrofolate (intracellular folates are present in their polyglutamate forms). This is the only reaction in the body in which folate and B12 are coparticipants. In addition to forming methionine, 5-methyltetrahydrofolate is converted to tetrahydrofolate. The reactions occur in the following manner: methylcobalamin transfers its methyl group to homocysteine yielding methionine and 5-methyltetrahydrate transfers its methyl group to cobalamin reconverting it to methylcobalamin. Methionine is converted to S-adenosylmethionine (SAMe), the major donor of methyl groups in transmethylation reactions, including reactions that are involved in the synthesis of basic myelin basic protein.


I am definitely keeping methylcobalamin in my long term stack. It's effects on mylenation and methylation reactions are important for healthy brain function whether or not it is a traditional nootropic. The form of B12 found in most vitamin supplements is cyanocobalamin, which is ineffective in these processes.

Anecdotally, methylcobalamin increases energy, improves alertness, decreases the need for sleep, and increases the quality of sleep.

Edited by bmud, 12 January 2010 - 08:47 PM.


#66 nito

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 08:58 PM

SAME is so damn expensive. I haven'ttried it yet, im am very tempted after reading this.
I have b complex pills hat contain methylcobalamin , not sure what they do, as i have not noticed anything different. There are however standalone b12 pills you can buy too. Might give those a try!

#67 The Likud Is Behind It

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 10:19 PM

I have b complex pills hat contain methylcobalamin , not sure what they do, as i have not noticed anything different.


SAMe is an effective antidepressant and it is good for energy. Methylcobalamin needs to be taken sublingually. I don't know if your B complex vitamin is sublingual or not.

#68 nito

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 02:17 AM

I have b complex pills hat contain methylcobalamin , not sure what they do, as i have not noticed anything different.


SAMe is an effective antidepressant and it is good for energy. Methylcobalamin needs to be taken sublingually. I don't know if your B complex vitamin is sublingual or not.


Well i have tried swallowing the b complex powder gel caps as wells as putting it under my tounge for like 5 mins. No difference.

#69 OverDu

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 05:29 AM

I have b complex pills hat contain methylcobalamin , not sure what they do, as i have not noticed anything different.


SAMe is an effective antidepressant and it is good for energy. Methylcobalamin needs to be taken sublingually. I don't know if your B complex vitamin is sublingual or not.


Soon, a company is going to put out a B-12 transdermal patch.

#70 technetium

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 02:45 PM

Has anyone got a source for these two in the UK?

150mg picamilon in the morning
500 mg phosphatydlserine matrix with 100mg PS, also including some phosphatydlcholine

regards

T




Can you post what dosage(s) you took of each, and at what time(s) of day ?


Lion's Mane ~500mg in the morning ~500mg at bedtime to get an even distribution of constant NGF release
400mg Pyritinol in the morning
800mg CDPcholine in the morning
5g fish oil in the morning
150mg picamilon in the morning
500 mg phosphatydlserine matrix with 100mg PS, also including some phosphatydlcholine
1g sulbutiamine in the morning with whole milk
750mg aniracetam in the morning with whole milk
1g bacopa in the morning
4g piracetam in the morning

I forgot to include that I also take inositol. It's not considered a nootropic, but it was orignally considered a B vitamin. It lost its status as a vitamin because it was found that the body could synthesize some of it. Regardless, it plays a huge role in the normalization of brain function in general. It is also incorporated into phosphatydlinositol, which is a part of cell membranes as much as phosphatydlcholine and phosphatydlserine. I can't claim it's a nootropic, but I take it for the same reasons I take nootropics, whole brain health. I take 4g inositol in the morning with my bacopa.



#71 OverDu

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 05:20 AM

Bmud,

I want to thank you for the info in this thread. I'm going to try something similar, but will probably add Schizandra Extract to the mix and some other slight changes.

#72 cougar

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 11:44 PM

Hi bmud,

Because of your thread I ordered my sulbutiamine from NutraPlanet and received it a few days ago in the mail. The first day I took 300mg as recommended on the label and definitely did feel it, however the effect was not strong enough. Today I doubled the dosage to 600mg and got pretty strong response. I noticed the improvement in my verbal fluency, reaction speed and clearer mind (slightly headache as well :) ). I would say I like it, however, my only concern is that I've read from many places that tolerance build up quickly and you have to cycle it. It seems that I like sulbutiamine so much that if possible I would like to take it daily as opposed to having to cycle it. What's your opinion about this?
Also, I'm still hesitating to try pyritinol as the possible side effect of damaging the liver sounds really terrible, how do I safely experiment this drug?
Thanks in advance.

Edited by cougar, 21 January 2010 - 11:46 PM.


#73 The Likud Is Behind It

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 06:57 PM

Hi bmud,

Because of your thread I ordered my sulbutiamine from NutraPlanet and received it a few days ago in the mail. The first day I took 300mg as recommended on the label and definitely did feel it, however the effect was not strong enough. Today I doubled the dosage to 600mg and got pretty strong response. I noticed the improvement in my verbal fluency, reaction speed and clearer mind (slightly headache as well :) ). I would say I like it, however, my only concern is that I've read from many places that tolerance build up quickly and you have to cycle it. It seems that I like sulbutiamine so much that if possible I would like to take it daily as opposed to having to cycle it. What's your opinion about this?
Also, I'm still hesitating to try pyritinol as the possible side effect of damaging the liver sounds really terrible, how do I safely experiment this drug?
Thanks in advance.



I don't cycle my sulbutiamine. I don't understand how you can develop a tolerance to a vitamin. That said, I haven't really tested whether a tolerance builds up by abstaining for a couple of days just to see. It seems to help me every day. I take about 1g per day.

The liver damage is a real problem, which is why I only plan to take pyritinol for a couple of months. Use caution.
-----------------------
As a side note, I found this page to be excellent at explaining the folate and methionine cycles re: methyl reactions.
http://www.heartfixe.....hyl Cycle.htm

#74 cuziamthecaptain

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 07:17 PM

interesting! question: have you experimented with provigil or nuvigil? Provigil didn't do squat for me, but my doc just gave me two nuvigil pills. I just ordered the supplements described in this thread. I'm waiting till I'm over a headcold before experimenting with the nuvigil, then the aforementioned supplements.

#75 Dorho

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 09:08 PM

bmud, since you respond so well to SAMe and methylcobalamin, you just might be an "undermethylating" person, although there is just about infinite number of other explanations as well. Excess alcohol consumption is probably a part of your answer too. Here's a somewhat unscientific page that lists symptoms of both over- and undermethylation: http://www.dr-bob.or...sgs/229704.html (note: the B12 referred there is cyanocobalamin).

#76 BabySchimmerlos

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 05:24 PM

Great post, thanks for all the info!

I tried to find sources for all the supplements recommended (which is not so easy for me, given that I am in Germany). As I also take ALCAR, I realized that I could buy AOR's Ortho Mind for the same price I would pay for ALCAR, CDPcholine and Bacopa separately.

Now with Ortho Mind there would be a number of additional supplements in the mix "for free", which (depending on whether they are useful or not) could be seen as a benefit or a negative. Namely, I would also get:

R(+)-lipoic acid
Huperzine-A
Vinpocetine
Ginkgo biloba extract
L-Pyroglutamic Acid

What is people's view? Is it better or worse to go with the package and have the extra stuff?

#77 nito

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 07:51 PM

is the 50 mg ALA contained in Now Adams multi sufficient to complement ALCAR or is it better to buy ALA as a stand-alone supplement?

#78 recitative

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 08:04 PM

It is better to buy individual supplements so that you can control exactly what you take and in what dosage. Some people respond well to certain supplements but not others, so while ALCAR might be great for you, perhaps vinpocetine won't be. Also, correct dosages are very individualized.

Plus, some supplements need to be taken at different times. Many people take bacopa in the evening because it is sedating, whereas the ALCAR is stimulating and should probably only be taken in the morning.

Check the forum for other peoples views on L-pyroglutamic acid, vinpocetine and ginkgo. Those three supplements seem to be unpopular.


Great post, thanks for all the info!

I tried to find sources for all the supplements recommended (which is not so easy for me, given that I am in Germany). As I also take ALCAR, I realized that I could buy AOR's Ortho Mind for the same price I would pay for ALCAR, CDPcholine and Bacopa separately.

Now with Ortho Mind there would be a number of additional supplements in the mix "for free", which (depending on whether they are useful or not) could be seen as a benefit or a negative. Namely, I would also get:

R(+)-lipoic acid
Huperzine-A
Vinpocetine
Ginkgo biloba extract
L-Pyroglutamic Acid

What is people's view? Is it better or worse to go with the package and have the extra stuff?



#79 What'sAllThisThen

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 08:50 PM

Thanks for the post, big help. Unfortunately for whatever reason the threads on this site are not being displayed in normal forum fashion like they were yesterday. Each post is it's own link, so it's going to take forever to read this and other threads until that problem ends (hopefully).

Anyway, I'd like to take the main 3 (Piracetam, CDPCholine, pyritinol). I'm looking for something to increase motivation, drive, mental function, reduce anxiety, and increase confidence to meet people. Are these a good choice?

Is there a list of supplements/medications these should not be taken with?

I currently take a multivitamin/mineral, grape seed, VitD, Krill Oil, and temporarily for TMJ I take curcumin, Glucosamine, Chondroitin, MSM. I also take Amoryn (x3) and Seredyn (x6), which at the end of the day equals for Amoryn: Hyperforin (SJW) 54mg, 5-htp 75mg, Rhodiola 270mg, B6 60mg, B12 90mcg, Folate 900mcg, Zinc 45mg, and a few misc. And Seredyn: 1200mg Niacinimde, Magnesium, and a 3000mg mix of Passion flower, Valerian, Passion Flower, and Taurine. They work pretty well, but I do still have some anxiety I'm working on through my thoughts/actions.

I also take some Natural Calm Magnesium, Chlorella, Spirulina, and Chia Seeds that I mix in with protein after workouts.


Also, is there a ratio these should be taken in? I'd like to try small doses and want to get the correct amount of choline to go with the correct amount of Piracetam, pyritinol, etc..

#80 viltro

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 09:24 PM

Unfortunately for whatever reason the threads on this site are not being displayed in normal forum fashion like they were yesterday. Each post is it's own link, so it's going to take forever to read this and other threads until that problem ends (hopefully).


It's fine for me, are you sure you're not using the "view new posts" or similar options?

#81 What'sAllThisThen

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 10:04 PM

Unfortunately for whatever reason the threads on this site are not being displayed in normal forum fashion like they were yesterday. Each post is it's own link, so it's going to take forever to read this and other threads until that problem ends (hopefully).


It's fine for me, are you sure you're not using the "view new posts" or similar options?


Fixed it. It was set to Outline format. There's an Option drop down at the top of each thread and somehow it got switched. I don't know how as I never intentionally did it, but my laptop tends to do funny things when I close the monitor. If I'm in my email it'll go to my Sent folder. If I close it on the desktop but not enough to click it shut, it opens Trillian. Anyway, thanks and sorry for the sidetrack.

#82 Jason

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 01:36 AM

I am new to this forum, I am fixing to order your recommended stack. I have put together an amazon wish list with everything you have listed. Let me know if anyone finds better deals and/or can consolidate any of these to the same store for cheaper shipping. As a side note is cognizin http://goo.gl/xdd5 and chp choline the same thing? Let me know if I made any mistakes on the products in this list.

Currently $280 for 2 month supply after shipping.
http://amzn.com/w/H519JIVHDIOO

#83 nito

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 03:10 AM

I don't tknow if CDP works on me or not. I feel nothing so i dont know how to judge whether it works or not. It's alsovery expensive. I have almost finished my second bottle and i'm not sure if i'll buy another one. Would choline bitrate powder be an adequate substitute in its place?

#84 Dorho

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 06:34 AM

I don't tknow if CDP works on me or not. I feel nothing so i dont know how to judge whether it works or not. It's alsovery expensive. I have almost finished my second bottle and i'm not sure if i'll buy another one. Would choline bitrate powder be an adequate substitute in its place?

If I were you, I'd try Alpha GPC and DMAE first. Those who don't respond well to CDP choline probably get better nootropic effect from those two than choline bitartrate. Alpha GPC is pretty expensive though, even in bulk form (1fast400), but DMAE is a lot cheaper than CDP choline.

#85 nito

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 06:49 AM

I don't tknow if CDP works on me or not. I feel nothing so i dont know how to judge whether it works or not. It's alsovery expensive. I have almost finished my second bottle and i'm not sure if i'll buy another one. Would choline bitrate powder be an adequate substitute in its place?

If I were you, I'd try Alpha GPC and DMAE first. Those who don't respond well to CDP choline probably get better nootropic effect from those two than choline bitartrate. Alpha GPC is pretty expensive though, even in bulk form (1fast400), but DMAE is a lot cheaper than CDP choline.


yea i was going to buy DMAE but came across some thread somewhere on the board regarding it, and it seemed it had some negative effect which apperantly seemed to put alot of people off which made me doubt the supplement. However if it's safe i will definately buy it as i'm getting tired of (salty tasting) CDP!

Appearantly fish oil contains DMAE, cus when i went to iherb and typed it in the liquid fish oil i have at home came up based on the "best selling" criteria i selected.

Edited by nito, 29 January 2010 - 06:55 AM.


#86 nito

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 06:52 AM

I'm sure i sound like someone who just buys anything he gets told tobuy, but i am so in need of a motivating, memory boosting supplement. I am 4 months away from graduating, and it's stressful times with lots of work. I need to be at my best as i have started to slack. I ain't panicking yet but i need to up my game and be ready for those long exams looming around the corner shortly!

#87 cuziamthecaptain

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 04:20 PM

Okay, I just tried the nuvigil and it works pretty well with me. I didn't think it would because the modafinil didn't do squat for me, it was like popping sugar pills.

I have a lot more energy and as someone else said, although your body feels tired, your mind really doesn't.

At the same time, I do want to try the aforementioned supplements. I ordered them and now have the big three and will soon have the others.

My question is: how should I take the pills so I can better learn what does what? I might wait a week before starting the supplements listed here just so I can get a good feel as to how the nuvigil works. Should I then take the big three, see how they work, then add on the supplements?

I have no problem taking all the supplements at once, and I do understand there may be an interaction effect, but I don't want to keep taking something if it doesn't do anything for me and if I take them all at once, it'd be hard to tease apart the effects of one supplement vs. the other. At the same time, I got a lot on my plate right now and would love to have the extra energy/mental focus.

-- John

#88 recitative

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 12:26 AM

I don't tknow if CDP works on me or not. I feel nothing so i dont know how to judge whether it works or not. It's alsovery expensive. I have almost finished my second bottle and i'm not sure if i'll buy another one. Would choline bitrate powder be an adequate substitute in its place?

If I were you, I'd try Alpha GPC and DMAE first. Those who don't respond well to CDP choline probably get better nootropic effect from those two than choline bitartrate. Alpha GPC is pretty expensive though, even in bulk form (1fast400), but DMAE is a lot cheaper than CDP choline.


yea i was going to buy DMAE but came across some thread somewhere on the board regarding it, and it seemed it had some negative effect which apperantly seemed to put alot of people off which made me doubt the supplement. However if it's safe i will definately buy it as i'm getting tired of (salty tasting) CDP!

Appearantly fish oil contains DMAE, cus when i went to iherb and typed it in the liquid fish oil i have at home came up based on the "best selling" criteria i selected.


DMAE is naturally occurring in sardines, which also have more omega 3 than most other fish. Plus, sardines are really cheap, easy to find, and tasty.

#89 winston

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 12:33 AM

My 4 month test with 12 or so nootropics never gave me the slightest effect. Adderall and adrafinil do little for me either.

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#90 What'sAllThisThen

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 04:53 AM

DMAE is naturally occurring in sardines, which also have more omega 3 than most other fish. Plus, sardines are really cheap, easy to find, and tasty.


If it's the Omega 3 that holds the DMAE then that would make Mackerel another good source. I've seen a couple different lists, but it's either #1 or #2 for Omega 3 content. Just don't get King Mackerel as that's high in mercury.




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