336 replies to this topic

[What'sAllThisThen]

Ok, since no one has commented on possible interactions with what I currently take (end of p.4) and I haven't found any mention of interactions in any of the threads I've read I'm going to bite the bullet.

I've decided to start with Piracetam, CDP-choline and Sulbutiamine (was gonna be pyritinol, but read about the liver problems). My plan is to start on small doses and maybe even introduce each one on separate days. But I have a couple questions...

1. What is a good source for each of these three supplements? I don't want expensive, but if there's a quality issue I'd rather have good quality.

2. In what ratios, should I take the three? Piracetam : CDP : Sulbutiamine.

3. If I wanted to start slowly, would 300mg of Piracetam be a good first day dose? Or should I start smaller? I know most go big, but I don't mind increasing over several days.

[zm3thod]

I don't tknow if CDP works on me or not. I feel nothing so i dont know how to judge whether it works or not. It's alsovery expensive. I have almost finished my second bottle and i'm not sure if i'll buy another one. Would choline bitrate powder be an adequate substitute in its place?

If I were you, I'd try Alpha GPC and DMAE first. Those who don't respond well to CDP choline probably get better nootropic effect from those two than choline bitartrate. Alpha GPC is pretty expensive though, even in bulk form (1fast400), but DMAE is a lot cheaper than CDP choline.

yea i was going to buy DMAE but came across some thread somewhere on the board regarding it, and it seemed it had some negative effect which apperantly seemed to put alot of people off which made me doubt the supplement. However if it's safe i will definately buy it as i'm getting tired of (salty tasting) CDP!

Appearantly fish oil contains DMAE, cus when i went to iherb and typed it in the liquid fish oil i have at home came up based on the "best selling" criteria i selected.

What was that thread?

I have been taking DMAE, and haven't notice any side-effects. I also didn't notice any huge gains from it, but it is cheap (using the NOW brand from iHerb). In the past I took choline bitartrate and soy lecithin to support piracetam, but didn't ever notice anything w/o the piracetam. I am now trying CDP Choline and Huperzine A at different times, but have no conclusive thoughts on them yet

[sameer_hasham]

Bmud,

I'm new to nootropics and I had a hunch you know what you're talking about. As you suggested, I did my own research on your supplements (easy when you know how and where to go) and believe that this really is, as you've termed it, the "Holy Grail" of nootropics. Thank you for kindly sharing ten months of work; I'm confident I'm going to see the changes I desire. I am pleased that there is an emphasis on GABA deficiency. I've always wondered why i could see clearly after a small dose of ketamine. Now I know why.

Bmud, if you could kindly answer a couple of questions, it would be wicked and cool:

1) Propranalol has been invaluable in controlling the physical anxiety syptoms in social situations (I have an increased cortisol level that takes a long time to decrease. Hence I get rushes of addrenalin from quite normal social and non social stimuli. This increased cortisol level was a result of stress-trauma three years ago) 10-20mg of propranalol lets me keep the addrenalin, and so the physical (and so the actual) anxiety down. Can I continue using this pattern?

2) I have had a dopamine deficiency, I beleive, for over 10 years (I'm 26 now) and have only just realised the monstrous effects of neurochemical imbalance on just about every part of the person, from personality (I don't want to be a romantic/idealist dreamer forever!) to learning (difficulty processing info - it takes a long time) to procrastination (difficult to accept the wasted time) Anyway... Modalert has helped with all this and I am being more rational, focussed and my reward pathway being activated after so long has me incentivised to do the things I desire.

Bmud, can I carry on taking modalert with all of this ?? (I take max 150mg a day)

You've saved me a lot of time, so cheers buddy!

If you could answer the last two questions to a learning new-person then you're reigning champ.

Cheers

Sameer.

[The Likud Is Behind It]

Bmud,

I'm new to nootropics and I had a hunch you know what you're talking about. As you suggested, I did my own research on your supplements (easy when you know how and where to go) and believe that this really is, as you've termed it, the "Holy Grail" of nootropics. Thank you for kindly sharing ten months of work; I'm confident I'm going to see the changes I desire. I am pleased that there is an emphasis on GABA deficiency. I've always wondered why i could see clearly after a small dose of ketamine. Now I know why.

Picamilon is niacin and GABA. If you truly have a GABA deficiency, see if you get results with that. Also ashwagandha has GABA like effects. I find it helps me go to sleep. Your mileage may vary. Good luck.

1) Propranalol Can I continue using this pattern?

Bmud, can I carry on taking modalert with all of this ?? (I take max 150mg a day)

I am not a doctor. I cannot answer these questions. Please do not think of me as an expert. I am a guy on the internet. You should consider all internet sources with skepticism. Seriously. The "holy grail" comment was tongue-in-cheek. This is simply what I have found to work for me based on a basic understanding of nootropics. I know just enough to get myself in to trouble, to take the full spectrum of B vitamins, take comlementary herbs, and to avoid too many acetylcholine enhancers.

Before I did this I used to take Adderall. I find this stack to be as effective at remembering new information as the Adderall used to be. It's not nearly as good for motivation, but in terms of reading something and recalling it later, it's simply that effective for me. That is why I shared it. I used to consider Adderall something that could never be equaled.

If you could answer the last two questions to a learning new-person then you're reigning champ.

Sorry. Please don't give me that kind of credit. Some people in real life think I'm a complete idiot. I'm not trying to be an expert. There are plenty of people on this board who know WAY more than I do. I simply wrote this up because this is the type of thing I would have liked to have read 10 months ago when I was beginning my own research. This should be a springboard for your own research and own understanding, not some kind of complete how-to guide. There are plenty of people who know more than I do who have decided NOT to go with my "everything but the kitchen sink" style approach. They probably have good reasons for this, the least of which is financial. I do this regimen because I am studying for the bar exam. I do not plan to be on this entire stack permanently.

Good luck with your medical questions.

Cheers, mate.

Edited by bmud, 04 February 2010 - 04:56 PM.

[Nootropic Cat]

Can someone clear up for me whether big doses of thiamine and/or sulbutiamine are tarred by the same cancer-growth-enhancing brush as befotiamine? Thanks.

[Esoparagon]

Today I started trailing. I'm still waiting for piracetam to arrive though.

[tlm884]

Ok. I've sourced and priced the nootropics I need.

What do you think of this stack taken daily?

CDP-Choline - 750 mg
Bacopa 1100 mg
Phosphatidylserine 150 mg
Lion's Mane - 1000mg
Pyritinol - 400 mg
Piracetam - 4000 mg
Flax seed oil - 5 g
----
Plus all of this which comes in the BrainWave Plus supplement that I need for CDP-Choline. It was the only one I could source.

Acetyl-L-Carnitine 500 mg
L-Glutamine 400 mg
Choline Bitartrate 200 mg
Ginkgo (Leaves) Extract (standardized to 24% Flavonglycosides and 6% Terpene Lactones) 120 mg
Eleuthero (Root) Extract (15:1) 100 mg
Asian Ginseng (Root) Extract (standardized to 7% Ginsenosides) 100 mg
Ashwagandha (Root) Extract 100 mg
Gotu Kola (Leaves) Powder 50 mg
Royal Jelly 100 mg
Vinpocetine 10 mg
Huperzine A 100 mcg
Thymus 100 mg
Dimethylaminoethanol (DMAE) Bitartrate 100 mg

This comes to $125.97 AUD for a month if I calculated everything correctly. That's $4.20 a day or $29.40 a week.

Your a vegean that doesn't drink milk and you have to take Vcaps. But your taking Thymus everyday?

[Esoparagon]

Ok. I've sourced and priced the nootropics I need.

What do you think of this stack taken daily?

CDP-Choline - 750 mg
Bacopa 1100 mg
Phosphatidylserine 150 mg
Lion's Mane - 1000mg
Pyritinol - 400 mg
Piracetam - 4000 mg
Flax seed oil - 5 g
----
Plus all of this which comes in the BrainWave Plus supplement that I need for CDP-Choline. It was the only one I could source.

Acetyl-L-Carnitine 500 mg
L-Glutamine 400 mg
Choline Bitartrate 200 mg
Ginkgo (Leaves) Extract (standardized to 24% Flavonglycosides and 6% Terpene Lactones) 120 mg
Eleuthero (Root) Extract (15:1) 100 mg
Asian Ginseng (Root) Extract (standardized to 7% Ginsenosides) 100 mg
Ashwagandha (Root) Extract 100 mg
Gotu Kola (Leaves) Powder 50 mg
Royal Jelly 100 mg
Vinpocetine 10 mg
Huperzine A 100 mcg
Thymus 100 mg
Dimethylaminoethanol (DMAE) Bitartrate 100 mg

This comes to $125.97 AUD for a month if I calculated everything correctly. That's $4.20 a day or $29.40 a week.

Your a vegean that doesn't drink milk and you have to take Vcaps. But your taking Thymus everyday?

That was my proposed stack. I haven't actually ever taken thymus and I didn't actually know what it was until you just said that then. So far the only nootropics I've taken are Phosphatidylserine and Pyritinol. I just looked it up. Thank god I didn't buy BrainWave Plus.

[tlm884]

Ok. I've sourced and priced the nootropics I need.

What do you think of this stack taken daily?

CDP-Choline - 750 mg
Bacopa 1100 mg
Phosphatidylserine 150 mg
Lion's Mane - 1000mg
Pyritinol - 400 mg
Piracetam - 4000 mg
Flax seed oil - 5 g
----
Plus all of this which comes in the BrainWave Plus supplement that I need for CDP-Choline. It was the only one I could source.

Acetyl-L-Carnitine 500 mg
L-Glutamine 400 mg
Choline Bitartrate 200 mg
Ginkgo (Leaves) Extract (standardized to 24% Flavonglycosides and 6% Terpene Lactones) 120 mg
Eleuthero (Root) Extract (15:1) 100 mg
Asian Ginseng (Root) Extract (standardized to 7% Ginsenosides) 100 mg
Ashwagandha (Root) Extract 100 mg
Gotu Kola (Leaves) Powder 50 mg
Royal Jelly 100 mg
Vinpocetine 10 mg
Huperzine A 100 mcg
Thymus 100 mg
Dimethylaminoethanol (DMAE) Bitartrate 100 mg

This comes to $125.97 AUD for a month if I calculated everything correctly. That's $4.20 a day or $29.40 a week.

Your a vegean that doesn't drink milk and you have to take Vcaps. But your taking Thymus everyday?

That was my proposed stack. I haven't actually ever taken thymus and I didn't actually know what it was until you just said that then. So far the only nootropics I've taken are Phosphatidylserine and Pyritinol. I just looked it up. Thank god I didn't buy BrainWave Plus.

Good good, Im sure eating desicated animal parts would not be the best thing for a vegan haha.

[russianBEAR]

Here is some veteran advice:

Don't start thinking too much and reading too much into it at first. You don't wanna go right in with a huge stack right off top, because it will be harder to diagnose where the side effects are coming from.

It is better to get used to a certain substance then add gradually. When you combine two substances, you want to have at least some tolerance to one of them. 

Also, I wouldn't suggest taking a laundry list of stuff like that. The liver and kidneys, which in most cases, have to break all that stuff down are likely saying something along the lines of: "Oh shit, here comes another ridiculous LOAD of chemicals with tons of filler and other crap they put into pills, gelcaps. Damn! Better get to work on all this bs again"

On paper it seems cool, that one thing adds to the other, and this counteracts that side-effect, and substance A is for this and substance B is for that...but you end up basically taking loads of chemicals per day - there is no way that is good for your body, you're putting yourself under a lot of strain, even if you're a health freak otherwise.

[Esoparagon]

Here is some veteran advice:

Don't start thinking too much and reading too much into it at first. You don't wanna go right in with a huge stack right off top, because it will be harder to diagnose where the side effects are coming from.

It is better to get used to a certain substance then add gradually. When you combine two substances, you want to have at least some tolerance to one of them. 

Also, I wouldn't suggest taking a laundry list of stuff like that. The liver and kidneys, which in most cases, have to break all that stuff down are likely saying something along the lines of: "Oh shit, here comes another ridiculous LOAD of chemicals with tons of filler and other crap they put into pills, gelcaps. Damn! Better get to work on all this bs again"

On paper it seems cool, that one thing adds to the other, and this counteracts that side-effect, and substance A is for this and substance B is for that...but you end up basically taking loads of chemicals per day - there is no way that is good for your body, you're putting yourself under a lot of strain, even if you're a health freak otherwise.

This is very sound advice. I'll make sure not to go crazy with brain chemicals.

[Solarclimax]

Here is some veteran advice:

Don't start thinking too much and reading too much into it at first. You don't wanna go right in with a huge stack right off top, because it will be harder to diagnose where the side effects are coming from.

It is better to get used to a certain substance then add gradually. When you combine two substances, you want to have at least some tolerance to one of them. 

Also, I wouldn't suggest taking a laundry list of stuff like that. The liver and kidneys, which in most cases, have to break all that stuff down are likely saying something along the lines of: "Oh shit, here comes another ridiculous LOAD of chemicals with tons of filler and other crap they put into pills, gelcaps. Damn! Better get to work on all this bs again"

On paper it seems cool, that one thing adds to the other, and this counteracts that side-effect, and substance A is for this and substance B is for that...but you end up basically taking loads of chemicals per day - there is no way that is good for your body, you're putting yourself under a lot of strain, even if you're a health freak otherwise.

This is very sound advice. I'll make sure not to go crazy with brain chemicals.

Try telling that to Kurzweil.

I have recently aquired all but 2 things that bmud has stated as part of his regime. 3 months supply of it. Plus some other good stuff, taken from Michaels thread (the state of my pills) on the Regime forum plus a couple things that i think are suited to me. Equates to about 18 pills and 4-5 different servings of powder a day. Also got some detox stuff, i know how some people think detox products are bogus, but i like the bits of info i have taken from the research i have done on things like french green clay. So i plan on giving my liver/kidneys/everything else, a good break after 3 months of noots.

I would also like to add that what RussianBEAR has said should be taken seriously, don't just do something because someone says it's good. I have done my own research before making any decisions and even then i'm taking risks.

Edited by Solarclimax, 13 February 2010 - 12:34 AM.

[igohard]

very nice thread Bmud

quick question: is there any reason why you personally use CDP as your choline source (over Alpha GPC, or any other)? I know there are a few past threads on that topic but the opinions seem to be pretty split between CDP and GPC. so i'm curious about your line of reasoning for choosing CDP. thanks

[Moustafa]

Here is some veteran advice:

Don't start thinking too much and reading too much into it at first. You don't wanna go right in with a huge stack right off top, because it will be harder to diagnose where the side effects are coming from.

It is better to get used to a certain substance then add gradually. When you combine two substances, you want to have at least some tolerance to one of them. 

Also, I wouldn't suggest taking a laundry list of stuff like that. The liver and kidneys, which in most cases, have to break all that stuff down are likely saying something along the lines of: "Oh shit, here comes another ridiculous LOAD of chemicals with tons of filler and other crap they put into pills, gelcaps. Damn! Better get to work on all this bs again"

On paper it seems cool, that one thing adds to the other, and this counteracts that side-effect, and substance A is for this and substance B is for that...but you end up basically taking loads of chemicals per day - there is no way that is good for your body, you're putting yourself under a lot of strain, even if you're a health freak otherwise.

I've wondered and thought about this myself. I don't like the feeling of downing a handful of pills after breakfast every morning. I try to drink as much water as possible during the day, which is a lot, but I know it can be taxing on your body. Should we be taking everything at different times during the day or should we just be taking a handful of pills all at once in the morning and taking a few weeks off every couple of months?

[russianBEAR]

I'd say try not to aim for the sky with the results you want and focus on what you actually need.

That way you'll be able to dwindle things down to the essentials and take less pills whichever method your prefer.

The point is, a healthy adult shouldn't need to be taking that many pills that affect so many different systems within the body...

[nito]

i really lack serious motivation needed at the level which i am at. I keep leaving everything to the last minute and going through horrible stress just to finish it. This impacts my mental state and puts me in depression. Is there anyone who knows a cheap source of getting sulbutiamine over to the uk, or if there is a credible UK supplier?
many thanks

[russianBEAR]

I would say a good start would be changing your routine, because that would alleviate the need for a bunch of those "quick fixes", and then you can just build on that...

[Esoparagon]

My piracetam has finally arrived but now I'm stuck. How can I measure one gram of piracetam and two grams of choline bitartare without a scale?

Edit: What I think I'll do is use a capsule as my measuring device. I read that one capsule is about 700 mg.

Don't worry. I just bought a scale from eBay for $3.00 AUD. Bargain.

Edited by Esoparagon, 18 February 2010 - 09:14 PM.

[ian1983]

When you take yours in the morning do you basically put the lot in your hand and swallow it all down with whole milk ? and why whole milk, because of the fat that's in it ? whole milk is also slow digesting, does that add a bonus ?

I swallow them all at the same time. I think there might be a higher likelihood of phosphatidylcholine being produced if the omega-3s and the CDPcholine are both available at spiked levels at the same time.

I do it for the fat content. I'm not really sure if my theory holds, but both aniracetam and sulbutiamine are fat soluable if I recall correctly. I'm hoping that with whole milk they will be absorbed better than with water or skim milk.

The only thing I know I could be doing better is to take the piracetam at spaced out intervals throughout the day. I just take 4g in the morning and forget about it. I don't know how much the subjective qualities of piracetam would be enhanced by spacing it out. It seems like a lot of work.

I put 4-5 g of piracetam into a 750ml water bottle and drink it 3 times a day (morning, about 12.00 and at about 16.00).
Much easier and since the half life of piracetam is about 4 hours, it keeps the levels up in the blood stream through the day.

[ian1983]

Has anyone got a source for these two in the UK?

150mg picamilon in the morning
500 mg phosphatydlserine matrix with 100mg PS, also including some phosphatydlcholine

regards

T

Can you post what dosage(s) you took of each, and at what time(s) of day ?

Lion's Mane ~500mg in the morning ~500mg at bedtime to get an even distribution of constant NGF release
400mg Pyritinol in the morning
800mg CDPcholine in the morning
5g fish oil in the morning
150mg picamilon in the morning
500 mg phosphatydlserine matrix with 100mg PS, also including some phosphatydlcholine
1g sulbutiamine in the morning with whole milk
750mg aniracetam in the morning with whole milk
1g bacopa in the morning
4g piracetam in the morning

I forgot to include that I also take inositol. It's not considered a nootropic, but it was orignally considered a B vitamin. It lost its status as a vitamin because it was found that the body could synthesize some of it. Regardless, it plays a huge role in the normalization of brain function in general. It is also incorporated into phosphatydlinositol, which is a part of cell membranes as much as phosphatydlcholine and phosphatydlserine. I can't claim it's a nootropic, but I take it for the same reasons I take nootropics, whole brain health. I take 4g inositol in the morning with my bacopa.

There is a place you can get 500mg pure PS from pharmaceutical grade that I ordered from a while ago. I think I have it book marked.

I think it was $50 for 90 tablets.

[Monalyssa]

How long would it take to start seeing results if you followed a regime diligently?

I noticed extreme improvements with the B vitamins almost immediately. I had the strong physical reactions to them noted above immediately. They made me feel significantly better and cleared my head within a couple of days.

The phosphatydlcholine and phosphatydlserine are going to take time to restore in your body. Long term deficits are not fixed over night. They are supposed to be found in your diet naturally. But, among other things, the skewed the ratio of omega-3 to omega-6s in modern diets throws off production.

Bacopa takes 12 weeks to get the huge effect in memory. Taken just once, there is no improvement on the same day other than the anti-anxiety effect.

Piracetam and aniracetam have cumulative effects. CDPcholine also has long term effects, but the choline part of it should make you a little clearer almost immediately.

It takes 6 months with lion's mane to start getting the global improvements in mental function found in the study.

damn u have to take bacopa everyday for 12 weeks. I think i stopped after 1 week and ended up taking it whenever the bottle crossed my eyes.

where did you find them cheaper

[nito]

I would say a good start would be changing your routine, because that would alleviate the need for a bunch of those "quick fixes", and then you can just build on that...

Well im running out of time. I only got 2 weeks to sumbit my thesis and then 1 months for exam. I am now ready for another set of supplements to buy over to the uk. Since i don't think i got much from CDP or ALCAR, i planning in looking into the following;

DMAE
Hyperzine A
sulbutiamine
L theanine (for those nervy exams)

Can't think of anything else to aid in focus and alertness. Feel free to add or critique.

Nito

[czGLoRy]

I also heard the effectiveness of sulbutaimine and piracetam last for only around 4 hours. Wouldn't this make it better to split the dose in two or three parts?

[Monalyssa]

I also heard the effectiveness of sulbutaimine and piracetam last for only around 4 hours. Wouldn't this make it better to split the dose in two or three parts?

Is there anything that lasts LONGER??

[russianBEAR]

Well I dunno how it relates to the topic, but Cerebrolysin lasts about 2 days easily Benzos always last a few days for an effect, but as far as all the noots - their half life ain't that long usually pretty short about 4 hours.

[PhDStudent]

Is Pantethine ever used here to increase acetyl CoA? I'm asking because my small understanding on the issue is that PC (phosphatidylcholine) is the "choline storage" in the brain and when needed it is hydrolized to give choline, which together with acetyl CoA can make acetylcholine.

very nice thread Bmud

quick question: is there any reason why you personally use CDP as your choline source (over Alpha GPC, or any other)? I know there are a few past threads on that topic but the opinions seem to be pretty split between CDP and GPC. so i'm curious about your line of reasoning for choosing CDP. thanks

I'm also still stuck on that question. would it be true to say that cdp choline has more of a good build-up action, by increasing the body's phosphatidylcholine, while apha GPC would be more temporary? If so I would go for cdp choline.. but from what I read it's not that simple

does cdp choline really increase pituitary hormones? what about alpha gpc?

[RockandSoul]

Can you post what dosage(s) you took of each, and at what time(s) of day ?

Lion's Mane ~500mg in the morning ~500mg at bedtime to get an even distribution of constant NGF release
400mg Pyritinol in the morning
800mg CDPcholine in the morning
5g fish oil in the morning
150mg picamilon in the morning
500 mg phosphatydlserine matrix with 100mg PS, also including some phosphatydlcholine
1g sulbutiamine in the morning with whole milk
750mg aniracetam in the morning with whole milk
1g bacopa in the morning
4g piracetam in the morning

I forgot to include that I also take inositol. It's not considered a nootropic, but it was orignally considered a B vitamin. It lost its status as a vitamin because it was found that the body could synthesize some of it. Regardless, it plays a huge role in the normalization of brain function in general. It is also incorporated into phosphatydlinositol, which is a part of cell membranes as much as phosphatydlcholine and phosphatydlserine. I can't claim it's a nootropic, but I take it for the same reasons I take nootropics, whole brain health. I take 4g inositol in the morning with my bacopa.

Notes for myself
Lions mane, dont have but need to get
Pyritinol (have it, will use sparingly worried about liver effects)
Fish Oil, have it (make sure not high PCB kind)
CDP Choline (instead I want to use up the choline bitartrate i bought)
Picamilon- dont have (check vitamin world oronline)
Sulbutamine (don't have)
Aniracetam have it
Bacopa just got it
Piracetam (dont have, will wait till i finish al aniracetam).

Have a good multivitamin, B-12 extra, tyrosine, an ALC/ALA combo, phenylalanine and several others.

My core program will consist of
1) Adequate rest
2) Adequate exercise
3) High quality nutrition
4) The supplements above.

[LabRat84]

Awesome post, bmud.

It sounds like you're a few months ahead of me in nootropic experimentation, and your guidance is greatly appreciated. You're also a year ahead of me professionally: I'm a 2L (second-year law student for the non-legalites). I also have a script for Adderall (started in January) and so far it's done wonders for me. In fact, my experience with Adderall is what led me to this world of nootropics in the first place. I've had a few cognitive deficits, and Adderall helped for a few of them--but not others. It boosted my focus, attention span, creative thinking, big-picture analysis--but I still had trouble remembering people's names, recalling simple words, and had difficulty following instructions. I've always been a curious person and the Adderall made me even more curious - what was going on in my brain?

The mechanism of Adderall is not fully understood. Everyone knows amphetamines cause catecholamine (dopamine, norepinephrine, epinephrine) release, so they're common in studying the adrenergic and dopaminergic systems. But they aren't agonists of dopamine or adrenergic receptors. They may activate the Trace Amino-Acid Receptor (TAAR1) http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18083911 (which actually reduces their effects) and they certainly modulate dopamine release and uptake: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19244097 . The TAAR1 receptor is interesting, BTW - it was only discovered in humans in the past decade and appears to be very important to neurotransmitter modulation (it's also a receptor for PEA and tyramine).

A bit about me (since this is my first real post):

-25 years old
-Academically successful (this isn't the place to brag, but I know what I'm capable of and I want to take advantage of my brainpower). I've also chosen a career where my mind is my biggest asset and I haven't been at the top of my game.
-History of chemical imbalance (childhood rage episodes), treated by HRI Pfeiffer Treatment Center (orthomolecular therapy) with vitamin and mineral supplements. Need 100-150mg Zinc/day to maintain reference plasma levels.
-Always had a slightly obsessive personality. Sometimes wish I had OCD so that I'd keep a tidier apartment.
-Developed anxiety, depressive symptoms around age 19 (but don't fit into any DSM diagnosis).
-Experienced attention problems, short-term memory deficits for past 2 years

My experience led me to see a neurologist about my short-term memory (my insurance lets me see specialists without referrals). He pegged B12 and/or thyroid. My follow-up is Monday; perhaps I'll report back. I was already supplementing with SAMe, a B complex, Zinc, Magnesium, and some other things for a few months, and nootropics for a few weeks. I started sublingual B12 as soon as I could. It seems to be helping. And (before the healthcare bill passed) I got a $2000 MRI on a $2.5 million 3-Tesla machine. The radiologist's report said everything looked normal, so my memory deficits are probably not due to some injury or degenerative disease. (On Thursday I'll get to see my own brain in 3D at <1mm spatial resolution on my computer, which is pretty damn cool.)

Long-term, like everyone else here, I want to prevent aging and neurodegenerative disease. Both my grandfathers suffered from vascular dementia. One is alive and the other died several years ago. Physically they had some issues but their mental states led to physical deterioration. They both almost certainly had transient ischemic attacks that led to their conditions. It's sad to see genius disappear like that. Both were brilliant men. It's just a reminder that all the nootropics in the world can't save you from poor cardiovascular health. Both had been prescribed Aricept (donepezil) at some point and it didn't seem to help. But maybe more cholinergics would have done something...

In the short term, I want to accomplish three things with nootropics: (There are some other things I'd like to do with supplements and lifestyle, but that's for another thread/subforum.)

1) Improve short-term memory and verbal recall.
2) Reverse amphetamine tolerance/potentiate the Adderall. If I can get the same results you do, maybe I won't need it...
3) Prevent amphetamine-induced neurotoxicity and neurotoxicity in general.

My already obsessive personality (and seven-month interest-free credit card) led me to purchase almost every known nootropic (even the Russian ones!). The only things I haven't bought are MAO-A inhibitors, since I'm also on an SSRI (since August). I just got my Lion's Mane today... it will be interesting to see the results.

More details:

1) Improve short-term memory and verbal recall: methyl-B12, N-Acetyl Carnitine, and L-Methylfolate have really helped, I think. Yesterday I remembered a security guard's name - I met him over a month ago and hadn't talked to him since. But I only had to talk to him yesterday because I forgot to take my wallet with me when I left my apartment! So I'm getting there. In social situations it's embarrassing because I can't remember people's names after I meet them. I remember almost every other detail, but not their names.

My anomia is interesting: it applies to all kinds of proper nouns. For example, I remember drugs by their generic name, but not their brand name (I always remember "amphetamines" and "methylphenidate," for example, but have trouble coming up with "Adderall" and "Ritalin" - even though I've known about Ritalin since 4th grade and Adderall since high school). At the very worst of my memory deficits I'd forget my best friends' names. When I visit my parents, I call both their cats "cat."

My folate levels are high so i might be able to cut back. I know the 'folate debate' has been raging recently. It's unlikely that I have cancer now, but I want to be safe. (Maybe I should have asked for a full-body MRI, ha.)

2) Amphetamine tolerance reversal/potentiation: Most of the peripheral effects have subsided (thankfully, no more "amphetamine dick"), but the central effects have also subsided. When I started Adderall, I had a hypomanic episode that was the most productive and educational three weeks of my entire life. I learned more in those three weeks than I had learned in the previous two years. I won't go into details because it might identify me, but it suffices to say that I learned about diverse subject matter. I don't want to be hypomanic all the time, but I can feel the Adderall having less of an effect than it did a few weeks ago, even after I "came down" from the hypomania. I'd rather not increase the dose (I'm at 30mg XR in the morning and 15mg IR in the late afternoon). I might make another thread on this - there's a thread that's been circulating for a few years about NMDA antagonists and sodium channel stabilizers, and I hope to be able to contribute. I've only been using magnesium (500 mg/day) but mostly at night to avoid taking it with calcium-containing supplements. I'm moving some of the magnesium to the morning now to see what happens. For those concerned: yes, I'm seeing a good psychiatrist. He reduced my SSRI dose when I was hypomanic and that brought me back to earth.

3) Amphetamine-induced neurotoxicity. Anyone who knows about this, please chime in. There's definitely a trade-off between neuroplasticity and protection from damage. I have yet to try deprenyl (got plenty) and if it works, I plan on switching to rasagiline once it goes generic, sometime in 2014. Does it have the same benefits, or is there something benefit to deprenyl besides MAO-B inhibition?

I'll post more about my stack sometime in the future, once I get some things settled...

[PhDStudent]

.. Pfeiffer Treatment Center ..

i think orthomolecular medicine is the future. could u summarize the suggestions they gave u, in general terms? maybe in another thread if that would constitute a highjack. Pfeiffer was supposedly a founder of orthomolecular, especially for minerals. is it true that they advocate copper in the 90-100 mcg/dL with zinc 120-140 mcg/dL? i have 1.7 times more copper than zinc right now, i think this is terrible for the brain and hormonal production (esp. for men)

also, i dont know much about what u r asking, but im also curious about how to increase short term memory. i can never recall names either, i hate that.

out of curiosity, have u seriously tried cdp choline? have u tried pantethine with it? pyrinitol? sulbutiamine? P5P?

[LabRat84]

.. Pfeiffer Treatment Center ..

i think orthomolecular medicine is the future. could u summarize the suggestions they gave u, in general terms? maybe in another thread if that would constitute a highjack. Pfeiffer was supposedly a founder of orthomolecular, especially for minerals. is it true that they advocate copper in the 90-100 mcg/dL with zinc 120-140 mcg/dL? i have 1.7 times more copper than zinc right now, i think this is terrible for the brain and hormonal production (esp. for men)

also, i dont know much about what u r asking, but im also curious about how to increase short term memory. i can never recall names either, i hate that.

out of curiosity, have u seriously tried cdp choline? have u tried pantethine with it? pyrinitol? sulbutiamine? P5P?

Yeah, there's probably a better forum for this - I didn't want to threadjack, but my thoughts were flowing on Adderall when I wrote it. My most recent report says reference for Cu is 70-155 and Zinc 70-150 mcg/dL, but that's directly from LabCorp, not Pfeiffer - my full report will come in a few weeks. At my most recent visit the doc bumped me up from 100 to 150mg of Zinc. I don't supplement with copper. I actually had my Cu tested twice in one week (once for Pfeiffer and again for my neurologist.) My Cu went from 86 to 77 mcg/dL after increasing the zinc. My Zn was at 106 mcg/dL and was not tested again.
The Copper/Zinc balance was somehow causing my childhood tempter tantrums in reaction to stress. I don't know what the mechanism was, but one day I hope to figure it out. For a while I quit most of the supplements but made sure to stick with zinc.

I think the future of medicine is orthomolecular therapy combined with pharmaceutical solutions targeted to specific needs. When it comes to psychiatric medicine, the DSM is a basically a joke written by pharma companies with the help of psychiatrists who want to make their jobs easier. What pharma companies need to be doing--which they aren't---is researching selective agonists and antagonists for each individual receptor in combination therapies. There are so many promising pharmaceutical products dropped in Stage III trials because they're "ineffective." Yet they could probably be combined with other therapies in ways that individuals need them.

I talked to my psychiatrist about discovering which pathways were involved in my problems. He said "I treat symptoms, not pathways." That's his job--he's not a molecular pharmacologist. But he is an excellent psychiatrist, and I intend on continuing to see him - talk therapy actually does help. The combination of drugs I'm on - amphetamines, benzos (Xanax) and an SSRI is "working" - but I believe there are alternative and safer ways to treat the same pathways without the side effects. Amphetamines are a dopamine/NE storm, benzos GABA potentiators, and the SSRI... well, it's actually unclear why/how it works. My psychiatrist was classically trained but is open-minded enough to recognize that "mega-vitamin therapy" sometimes works, because he's seen his patients respond to it. And the medical director at Pfeiffer, Dr. Allen Lewis, is not opposed to traditional medicines. Again, for a different thread.

Specifics:
I use Alpha-GPC to supplement 'racetams and/or galantamine. Without a a choline source I get headaches from these. I might try CDP Choline as a cheaper/time delayed source, but I have plenty of AlphaGPC.
I've been taking P5P regularly for several months. It's been part of my Pfeiffer Rx for a while. I was getting liquid compounding for several years because I got sick of huge caps. But I realize that some need to be taken on an empty stomach, some with food, some with a fatty meal, etc. Compounding was getting expensive too.
My Sulbutiamine from RelentlessImprovement is on its way. I read about a negative reaction between Sulbutiamine and Ritalin and I wonder if the same will be true for Adderall.
I actually don't have pantethine or pyritinol. I've never tried any of the B5's, and pyritinol doesn't look too promising.

There are some threads on short-term memory. I actually came across the methyl-B12/N-Acetyl-Cysteine/methylfolate combo when looking for information about Lamictal (lamotrigine), which another psychiatrist I talked to (not as a patient) mentioned as something that might be helpful for my mood/anxiety problems. It turns out that lamotrigine often causes short-term memory loss, probably via folate/B12 deficiency. People seem to respond to supplementation, and so far I think I've seen an improvement-but it could be better.

Edited by LabRat84, 25 March 2010 - 05:26 AM.