91 replies to this topic

[Skötkonung]

Here is an interesting prospective study with a 15-year follow-up period:

Dairy consumption and patterns of mortality of Australian adults
"There was no consistent and significant association between total dairy intake and total or cause-specific mortality. However, compared with those with the lowest intake of full-fat dairy, participants with the highest intake (median intake 339 g/day) had reduced death due to CVD (HR: 0.31; 95% confidence interval (CI): 0.12–0.79; P for trend = 0.04) after adjustment for calcium intake and other confounders. Intakes of low-fat dairy, specific dairy foods, calcium and vitamin D showed no consistent associations."

People who ate the most full-fat dairy had a 69% lower risk of cardiovascular death than those who ate the least. Otherwise stated, people who mostly avoided dairy or consumed low-fat dairy had more than three times the risk of dying of coronary heart disease or stroke than people who ate the most full-fat diary.

Milk consumption, stroke, and heart attack risk: evidence from the Caerphilly cohort of older men
"These results give no convincing evidence of an increased risk of vascular disease from milk drinking. Rather, the subjects who drank more than the median amount of milk had a reduced risk of an ischaemic stroke, and possibly a reduced risk of an ischaemic heart disease event"

In the Rotterdam study, high vitamin K2 intake was linked to a lower risk of fatal heart attack, aortic calcification and all-cause mortality. Most of the K2 came from full-fat cheese.

Dietary Intake of Menaquinone Is Associated with a Reduced Risk of Coronary Heart Disease: The Rotterdam Study
"The risk of incident CHD, all-cause mortality, and aortic atherosclerosis was studied in tertiles of energy-adjusted vitamin K intake after adjustment for age, gender, BMI, smoking, diabetes, education, and dietary factors. The relative risk (RR) of CHD mortality was reduced in the mid and upper tertiles of dietary menaquinone compared to the lower tertile [RR = 0.73 (95% CI: 0.45, 1.17) and 0.43 (0.24, 0.77), respectively]. Intake of menaquinone was also inversely related to all-cause mortality [RR = 0.91 (0.75, 1.09) and 0.74 (0.59, 0.92), respectively] and severe aortic calcification [odds ratio of 0.71 (0.50, 1.00) and 0.48 (0.32, 0.71), respectively]."

Milk drinking, ischaemic heart disease and ischaemic stroke II. Evidence from cohort studies
"In total, 10 studies were identified. Their results show a high degree of consistency in the reported risk for heart disease and stroke, all but one study suggesting a relative risk of less than one in subjects with the highest intakes of milk. ...the studies, taken together, suggest that milk drinking may be associated with a small but worthwhile reduction in heart disease and stroke risk."

The fat contains vitamins A, K2, E and D. It also contains medium-chain triglycerides, CLA, butyric acid and omega-3 fatty acids. I think this could be evidence that one or many of these components are at sub-standard levels in the Western diet.

[Lucas]

Food choices and coronary heart disease: A population based cohort study of rural swedish men with 12 years of follow-up

I dont like epidemiological studies but.....

Daily intake of fruit and vegetables was associated with a lower risk of coronary heart disease when combined with a high dairy fat consumption (odds ratio 0.39, 95% CI 0.21–0.73), but not when combined with a low dairy fat consumption (odds ratio 1.70, 95% CI 0.97–2.98). Choosing wholemeal bread or eating fish at least twice a week showed no association with the outcome.

[hypnotoad]

Food choices and coronary heart disease: A population based cohort study of rural swedish men with 12 years of follow-up

I dont like epidemiological studies but.....

Daily intake of fruit and vegetables was associated with a lower risk of coronary heart disease when combined with a high dairy fat consumption (odds ratio 0.39, 95% CI 0.21–0.73), but not when combined with a low dairy fat consumption (odds ratio 1.70, 95% CI 0.97–2.98). Choosing wholemeal bread or eating fish at least twice a week showed no association with the outcome.

I drink the raw stuff..

[ajnast4r]

median intake 339 g/day

uhhh median intake is 339g of dairy fat per day?

i would be interested to see how the mn content of grain fed vs grass fed dairy differs.

[Lucas]

Food choices and coronary heart disease: A population based cohort study of rural swedish men with 12 years of follow-up

I dont like epidemiological studies but.....

Daily intake of fruit and vegetables was associated with a lower risk of coronary heart disease when combined with a high dairy fat consumption (odds ratio 0.39, 95% CI 0.21–0.73), but not when combined with a low dairy fat consumption (odds ratio 1.70, 95% CI 0.97–2.98). Choosing wholemeal bread or eating fish at least twice a week showed no association with the outcome.

I drink the raw stuff..

Me too. The only dairy that must be consumed IMO.

[mike250]

interesting. perhaps i should introduce some swiss cheese to my diet

[TheFountain]

What do people think about Dairy raising IGF-1 and potentially speeding up the aging process? Not to be concerned with? If so, explain in detail.

[Skötkonung]

median intake 339 g/day

uhhh median intake is 339g of dairy fat per day?

i would be interested to see how the mn content of grain fed vs grass fed dairy differs.

Good question, here are some charts I found online:
http://www.fitnesssp...-fed-beef-meat/

If one isn't consuming dairy, pending dietary investigation, I would at the very least make sure to take D3, CLA, and a K2 supplement. One could also opt for pure dairy fat, such as pastured butter, ghee, or cream, that doesn't contain casein or lactase.

[hypnotoad]

What do people think about Dairy raising IGF-1 and potentially speeding up the aging process? Not to be concerned with? If so, explain in detail.

Unless you go crazy and drink a gallon a day I can't see how its going to make a discernible difference when you factor in the thousands of other things happening in a person's life like overall diet, exercise, healthy or unhealthy relationships, stressful jobs, environmental toxins, genetics, quality of sleep etc.

But the upside to a glass every day or two are numerous: yummy taste, K2, more variety in your diet, perfect way to coat your throat when taking supplements, helpful in promoting muscle mass in the gym etc. For me its an easy choice - the benefits far outweigh any potential side effects. I'm not particularly sensitive to milk regarding allergies, but I guess if you don't tolerate it well that would be a good reason to avoid it. I'm aware the "orthodox" paleo diet is against milk.. but the more I learn about diets and aging the more convinced I am that a lot of stuff like "no milk ever" or "no starches" etc. ends up being a wash in the end. No discernible difference one way or the other.

--------------

On a side note, guys like Dave Draper have been eating copious amounts of meat and milk for many many decades and he looks fine to me. Basically he was eating somewhat paleo back in the 70s onward - remember he also tanned a hell of a lot, took a lot of anabolic steroids, and has eaten a high protein diet his entire life (hes 68) - even still, there are worse fates that ending up like Draper Even if he dies at 85 instead of 95 or 100 its not a bad way to end up. Total lifespan is not what matters to me, aging while maintaining strength and vitality is far more important. One example "does not a rule make" but he and many others show that diets with meat and milk can be excellent ways to live and thrive. He is very likely on HRT and GH.

I'll let the bio-chemists, nano-tech engineers and others worry about rejuvenation and radical life extension modalities. If they happen be available to me some day, fine, if not well so be it. I want to be be able to drink a glass of milk when I want and eat beef and not freak out over methionine or IGF or whatever. I see strength and vitality and freedom from western degenerative disease like cancer, obesity, diabetes, arthritis etc as a separate issue from pure maximum longevity for longevity's sake. Hitting the major topics like exercise, avoiding elevated insulin and processed foods and maintaining healthy vitamin levels gets you 95 percent of the way there. Everything else is just speculative icing on the cake.

After the major 90% of the issues are addressed, I think there is simply no way to say why person A lives to 92 compared to why person B lives to 97 and person C lives to 101. There there is no way to know if that glass of full-fat or low-fat milk or pesticide laden salad or nasty divorce or horrible boss or rainy weather or whatever is the final nail in your coffin.



Draper writes (my emphasis):

My diet is the same now as it was when I was training hard to gain mass and power in the '60s and '70s. I just ate more, lots more. No fast or junk foods, though ice cream reached my plate and eventually my obliques during those formative years. That's gone and the smorgasbord eating is gone. Lots of beef, fish, chicken and dairy, plus heaps of salads and steamed cruciferous vegetables constitute my menu now as then. I depend more and more on a good protein powder (love my Bomber Blend) for important protein feedings throughout the day (breakfast, pre- and post-workout meals and pre-bedtime feeding) and a super vitamin and mineral. I also take creatine and EFAs these past years.

Pre-contest dieting for me consisted mostly of eating less in general, dumping the dairy the last weeks as I gauged hardness and cut the carbs to a minimum. There are individual tricks to dial in muscularity and fullness the last weeks and days, but you get the idea.

Edited by hypnotoad, 03 June 2010 - 01:31 AM.

[ajnast4r]

If one isn't consuming dairy, pending dietary investigation,

imo, theres no reason NOT to consume dairy fat... grass fed dairy fat is one of natures most basic superfoods.

[TheFountain]

If one isn't consuming dairy, pending dietary investigation,

imo, theres no reason NOT to consume dairy fat... grass fed dairy fat is one of natures most basic superfoods.

What about potential thyroid sensitivity which may result?

[Skötkonung]

If goitrogens exist in dairy, it is because the farmer has allowed his cattle to graze on goitrogenic plants or is using a soy based feed.

Isoflavones, especially genistein, in soy block thyroid peroxidase, an enzyme critical to the transformation process that results in the creation of thyroid hormones from iodide. Genistein can be passed through the milk and other fluids of mammals (including humans), but this concern is irrelevant for those consuming pastured dairy. Ironically, some people (including the authors of this study) believe this to be a positive thing despite increased risks of hashimoto's thyroiditis in people consuming soy.

Isoflavones in human breast milk and other biological fluids
"After one woman received a moderate challenge with 20 g roasted soybeans (equivalent to 37 mg isoflavones), we detected mean total isoflavone concentrations of approximately 2.0 micromol/L in plasma, 0.2 micromol/L in breast milk, and 3.0 micromol/h in urine."

Isothiocyanates in the Brassica vegetables also block TPO. The cyanogenic glucosides, glucosinolates, and thiocyanates all seem to be important. Thiocyanates block the NIS symporter, interfering with iodide uptake to the thyroid and breast (keeping the iodide from the breast milk). Cattle feeding on kale have exhibited this effect:

Journal of Endochronology: GOITROGENS IN MILK
"1. English kale, used to a great extent as a fodder for cows during the winter months, contains a substance which causes epithelial hyperplasia in the thyroid of rabbits. 2. The milk of cows fed either on English kale or on hay contains a substance which temporarily suppresses the uptake of 131I by the human thyroid. 3. The 'goitrogenic' effect of 'hay milk' is transient, and there is at present no evidence that it is clinically significant. That of 'kale milk', even if it is significant in fresh milk, is absent from deep-frozen milk. Further experiments are in progress to determine the goitrogenic properties, if any, of fresh kale milk."

But again, cattle grazing on this type of greenery is uncommon. The most pertinent concern is the goitrogens found in clover and alfalfa (biochanin A), grasses, and contaminated water. These types of goitrogens affect the iodine in animal products such as milk, butter, cheese, etc but don't usually pass to the consumer directly through the milk.

As long as you aren't relying on dairy for your iodine intake, you shouldn't have any thyroid problems. Furthermore, the amount of goitrogens in dairy probably pales in comparison to those of certain nuts, legumes, grains, and seeds.

Edited by Skötkonung, 03 June 2010 - 11:26 PM.

[ajnast4r]

n but I guess if you don't tolerate it well that would be a good reason to avoid it.

i'm quite sensitive to casein protein but have no problem with the fat... cream, butter, ghee etc.

What about potential thyroid sensitivity which may result?

the certain benefits of proper (grass fed etc) dairy far outweigh any theoretical determent.



whole foods has organic valley cultured grass fed butter at a good price now if anyone cares

Edited by ajnast4r, 04 June 2010 - 12:02 AM.

[jolly]

I'd say either no-dairy, or full-fat dairy would be your best option. (I personally lean towards full-fat dairy myself, I've even switched from drinking whole milk to half & half)
More study links here - http://wholehealthso...iovascular.html

[tunt01]

i realize dairy fat can be very healthy, but what about the studies we've seen discussing the negatives of saturated fat? wouldn't that be reason alone to avoid it?

[hypnotoad]

i realize dairy fat can be very healthy, but what about the studies we've seen discussing the negatives of saturated fat? wouldn't that be reason alone to avoid it?

can of worms = open

[Skötkonung]

i realize dairy fat can be very healthy, but what about the studies we've seen discussing the negatives of saturated fat? wouldn't that be reason alone to avoid it?

can of worms = open

I'm not even going to touch this one, I think we have discussed this topic to death.

[mike250]

so is there an optima amount of full fat dairy to consume per day?

[ajnast4r]

i realize dairy fat can be very healthy, but what about the studies we've seen discussing the negatives of saturated fat? wouldn't that be reason alone to avoid it?

can of worms = open

I'm not even going to touch this one, I think we have discussed this topic to death.

links?

[Skötkonung]

i realize dairy fat can be very healthy, but what about the studies we've seen discussing the negatives of saturated fat? wouldn't that be reason alone to avoid it?

can of worms = open

I'm not even going to touch this one, I think we have discussed this topic to death.

links?

http://www.imminst.o...mp;hl=saturated

[TheFountain]

All I know is whenever I consume casein containing dairy products more than just once in a long while my thyroid gland seems to swell up. Is there another mechanism in casein sensitive individuals that can cause this other than the formentioned goitrogen issue? And this also might be a of weird consequence to anyone interested in anecdotal accounts but dairy fat seems to make my lower jaw look bigger. When I stopped consuming it my lower jaw no longer appeared to be growing or widening. It 'shrunk back down' apparently. Allergy?

[TheFountain]

Or could that confirm that dairy might be pro-growth/pro-aging?

Edited by TheFountain, 05 June 2010 - 09:31 AM.

[Skötkonung]

Casein does stimulate IGF-1, but the levels needed to do so are quite high. If you look at T. Colin Campbell's (author of The China Study) studies on casein and cancer relating to the stimulation of IGF-1, you'll see that casein calories must comprise over 10% total calories to have any stimulation effect. This effect is especially heightened in milk that has been homogenized / pasteurized or treated with rBGH.

"But importantly, we also had evidence that this effect was reserved for a dietary level of casein that is above a threshold required to meet the rat's needs for protein, i.e., 10-12% of total calories. We also obtained evidence that this is true for casein but not for wheat protein or for soy protein, even when these latter proteins are fed at 20% of total calories. However, the fact that this casein effect exists above 10-12% on up to 20% or so makes these findings very relevant, in large part because humans and rats have about the same requirement for protein and in part because the range of human consumption for protein is about 11-22% protein, well within the range of this effect."

http://www.tcolincam...in-consumption/

My guess is you wouldn't need nearly that much casein your diet to get the necessary nutrients from artisan cheese. Not that I am particularly fond of T. Colin Campbell as he is definitely pushing an agenda, but industrially processed casein (the variant used in his studies) does seem particularly bad. That said, many cultures such as the Masai consume raw dairy as a large fraction of their calories and do not have cancer. Some recent research indicates that under normal circumstances, raw casein actually easily digested. This article does a good job explaining the differences.

If you're getting facial edema, you may be having a reaction to the homogenized / pasteurized casein or possibly just generally have some other dairy allergy. The effects of IGF1 aren't likely to be so dramatic as to reshape your face in a short period of time. In this case, I would simply try raw cheeses or supplement vitamin K2 (which is apparently providing the benefits seen in these studies).

[TheFountain]

By raw meaning organic, non-pasteurized? I think these must be two separate things as I understand 'raw dairy' is illegal to consume in most U.S states. When I was consuming dairy I definitely tried to stick with the 'organic' sort but I am guessing there is a big difference. Another thing I am wondering is what is the real difference in fatty acid composition between a serving of normally pasteurized cheese, organic cheese and raw cheese? Let's take something like mozzarella or cheddar cheese for example. Does pasteurization raise the 0-6 content of these foods? As I understand it these cheeses are suppose to have virtually no PUFAs in them.

Edited by TheFountain, 05 June 2010 - 11:17 AM.

[torrential]

By raw meaning organic, non-pasteurized? I think these must be two separate things as I understand 'raw dairy' is illegal to consume in most U.S states. When I was consuming dairy I definitely tried to stick with the 'organic' sort but I am guessing there is a big difference. Another thing I am wondering is what is the real difference in fatty acid composition between a serving of normally pasteurized cheese, organic cheese and raw cheese? Let's take something like mozzarella or cheddar cheese for example. Does pasteurization raise the 0-6 content of these foods? As I understand it these cheeses are suppose to have virtually no PUFAs in them.

Organic is less important that pastured, meaning 100% grass fed vs grass + corn. Order of preference:

1. Raw pastured (Raw = not pasteurized; always organic)
2. Pastured, vat pasteurized (low temp pasteurization, typically organic).

Some parts of the world prohibit supplementing the diet of ruminants in the human food supply: it's all grass all the time. In the US limiting cattle to their natural diet is considered wacky, though just this year the laws in the US around the "organic" designation were modified to ensure at least 120 days of 100% pasture. Previously the rules were much weaker, specifying only that the cows had "access" to pasture.

Availability of raw milk varies by state. In general commercial sale is prohibited but subscribing to a farmer's program or buying a "cow share" and thus drinking the milk of a cow you (partially) own is not. This seems reasonable to me since it helps ensure all of the milk is fresh every week (although when raw milk starts to turn after two or three weeks, it becomes delightfully sour rather than putrefying as does pasteurized). In only a couple of states is human consumption of raw milk is illegal though in no states is it illegal for animals or pets. This site has the best info on availability and local regulations:

http://www.realmilk.com

Even if you don't drink milk (I don't - too sweet - but the rest of my family does) raw cream is spectacular, especially in early spring and mid fall. All of the goodness with none of the casein.

Cow breeds used in raw dairy typically produce milk with A2 beta casein rather than the A1 variant found in commercial dairy breeds. The science here is not iron clad but there is some evidence that A1 is "bad" while A2 is "good." Lots of stories about folks who couldn't tolerate commercial pasteurized milk but could readily consume raw.

[DukeNukem]

I always tell people that my diet is paleo-plus, and the plus is dairy. But, I only eat high quality dairy and high-fat dairy. In coffee, I mostly use goat's milk, or if traveling, half-&-half. I prefer goat's cheese if available. I never eat industrial cheeses like America cheese or canned cheese. I consume a lot of butter, and if I buy it I get the more expensive grass fed darker yellow butters (never a butter from a tub). I'm pretty sure that because of my European decent, I'm not lactose intolerant. My allergy tests seem to indicate that I'm not allergic to milk, so I do not avoid dairy.

It's pretty f'ing sad that government BS like this is happening to our farmers who are merely serving a 2000+ year old demand:
http://wholefoodusa....d-for-raw-milk/

[TheFountain]

Where do people purchase your raw dairy? Especially if you live in a city?

[Ron]

Where do people purchase your raw dairy? Especially if you live in a city?

Find a farmer near you:
http://www.realmilk.com/where2.html

[TheFountain]

i realize dairy fat can be very healthy, but what about the studies we've seen discussing the negatives of saturated fat? wouldn't that be reason alone to avoid it?

can of worms = open

I'm not even going to touch this one, I think we have discussed this topic to death.

links?

http://www.imminst.o...mp;hl=saturated

That thread ended up in utter confusion.

[TheFountain]

Where do people purchase your raw dairy? Especially if you live in a city?

Find a farmer near you:
http://www.realmilk.com/where2.html

Nothing in my immediate vicinity but interestingly there are a couple farmers listed a few states over who deliver. I take it raw dairy lasts fairly well when not refrigerated for a couple days?

Edited by TheFountain, 06 June 2010 - 12:58 AM.