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A Case for Very Low Dose ALCAR?

ALCAR

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#1 Ames

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Posted 21 September 2011 - 07:42 PM


Preface

This may have been covered before, but upon a search I couldn't readily find anything about it. I concede that I may not have searched back far enough.

Additionally, I'm not a chemist nor a trained biologist. I can search for and comprehend studies well, but not with the educational context of many here. So, forgive my layman's understanding.

Last, I have a ton of school work to do right now, and so I haven't searched extensively on this. My insight on this has come from both short term use as well as...drumroll....wikipedia as a starting source.

Admit it, your excited to comment on this already :laugh:

My Supplementation Habits

I'm an extremely cautious experimenter as a matter of instinct. Although, I suppose that such an approach is out of a sense of self preservation, it seems to hinder me more than help. I'm trying to break myself of adhering too strongly to imagined models of stacking supplements that could really use a lot of adjustment.

Case in point: I had several months of racetam use, previously, but stuck to DMAE as a choline source. I think that may have severely limited my experience, but I thought that "choline was choline".

Additionally, although I had ALACAR on hand, I hardly tried it out of some fancied belief that pricaetam on its own was the way to nootropic bliss. When you start with all of this, its very difficult to quickly gain a comprehensive model of how these supplements behave and interact. Furthermore, which ones have extreme value and which have less so.

My point is, that although I have been supplementing for a while, on and off, the following might seem like a "basic" revelation in terms of the supplements combined.

Topic

Today I took a dose of ALCAR that amounted to 1/10th or less of a "00" Capsule. I waited twenty minutes and felt something, but very subtle

At the twenty minute mark, I ingested a very small amount of choline(5 drops mixed with an acid) that was actually just a stabilizing agent used in "Biosil" (I have choline bitartrate on order). I had before noticed that this choline had helped me recover from a post huperzine migraine after the first day that I had taken the huperzine, and so today I purposely took the Biosil solely for the choline content - to determine how it would interact with the ALCAR. Initially, I noticed a decrease in cognitive awareness, starting with an immediate increase in my hearing issues. However, about seven minutes later that subsided and I felt fantastic. I mean, really good. I noticed significant neuroprotective effect against my light sensitivity issues and an overall felling of well being that seemed to mimic a 200 mg does of huperzine, but more intense and with a better overall feeling of health about it. It lasted about four hours. Remember, this was with miniscule amounts of both substances.

So, in-between my studies today, I was reading about acetylcholine on wikipedia. Just to make sure I had the model of action fairly correct in my head. The brief upregulation of my hearing issue worried me, and so I wanted to make sure that I wasn't further doing anything that would be ototoxic.

About halfway down the page, under, "Drugs acting on the acetylcholine system", there is a list with this text above it:

"These are drugs that mimic acetylcholine on the receptor. In low doses, they stimulate the receptors, in high they numb them due to depolarization block."

Then, the first 'drug' listed is ALCAR.

Question

I know that many people here take daily doses of ALCAR that range from 250 mg up to a few grams per day, sometimes several times per day. However, if assertion of the wikipedia entry is correct, and this depolarization block occurs to a degree in the brain, thus preventing ACh release, then high does ALCAR would have the opposite effect of what is desired.

In the context of the depolarization block assertion, and in theory, a very low dose of ALCAR(perhaps the lower the better) in addition to choline 20-30 minutes later, and perhaps a B complex vitamin, would lead to a significant enhancement effect professed to be desired with ALCAR or choline alone.

It feels like , if one so desired to experiment, one could then take to another level with huperzine - assuming that you would desire that and one did not consume too much choline. Although, that may be setting the stage for too much ACh, regardless. Or, maybe its great.

It has already been determined that the way to prevent ALCAR induced mitochondrial ROS is with a lose dose. Perhaps, that mechanism also speaks to a low dose having a superior effect, in general.

Conclusion

This model might explain why some people get bad reactions from ALCAR. I would be willing to bet that anyone that doesn't understand the hype, or has had issues, has always taken a high dose, or if the have taken it at a very low dose then they haven't followed it up with choline.

Experimenting with both low and high doses of choline, post low dose ALCAR, seems to be warranted.

I'm ready to get criticized on my understanding of this. However, maybe even if I am off, then this will open up a discussion of the possible benefits of extremely low dose ALCAR.
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#2 8bitmore

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 01:34 PM

Think this warrants a bit more investigation: thanks for taking the time to write your findings up here! My own experience with ALCAR seems to mimic your theory partly: if I take more than about 200mg or ALCAR I feel very 'foggy' and have a sort of generalized head-pressure that last for at least half a day or so. However, if I stay at a 150mg (splitting 500mg caps into thirds (using 2 empty veggie caps to each ALCAR cap)) the ALCAR seems to be doing me good - not in a massive way but enough that I care to keep taking it (plus 4 months by now).

The reason why I found your topic is funnily enough that I'm about to order a batch of Choline - will post in this thread again to see if my exp mimics yours when following up ALCAR with Choline.

edit: could the title of this thread somehow be corrected?

Edited by 8bitmore, 05 November 2011 - 01:35 PM.


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#3 8bitmore

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 12:13 PM

However, about seven minutes later that subsided and I felt fantastic. I mean, really good. I noticed significant neuroprotective effect against my light sensitivity issues and an overall felling of well being that seemed to mimic a 200 mg does of huperzine, but more intense and with a better overall feeling of health about it. It lasted about four hours. Remember, this was with miniscule amounts of both substances.


Update: I tried out smallish doses of Choline Bitartrate with ALCAR and had no such reaction - were you, golgi1, able to recreate this experience consistently? And did it ever work with Choline Bitartrate instead of the Biosil? Biosil seems to be rather exotic and specific type of Choline called Choline-Stabilized Orthosilicic Acid) (ch-OSA) which might be part reason for your strong reaction..

#4 Renegade

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:51 PM

Any further views on this?

I'm taking 2g of ALCAR at the moment. Could I be better off with a lower dose?

#5 Guardian4981

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 08:50 PM

I know personally when taking ALCAR the first few days I have more energy and libido, then after that I become extremly lethargic until I stop using it. I have read that carnitine may inhibit T3 which concerns me.

#6 Pirate

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:57 PM

I have read that 1.5g's increases motor skills - has anyone who is taking smaller dosages noticed an increase in their motor skills?

#7 xsiv1

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 01:07 AM

Alcar gave me insomnia at just a regular dosage first thing in the morning. It was the only variable that changed in my regimen. I may have to try a lower dose because I did feel some mood lift and energy from it.
  • Agree x 1

#8 Renegade

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 07:10 AM

How do you explain the positive studies which used relatively high doses?

#9 nowayout

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 12:25 PM

How do you explain the positive studies which used relatively high doses?


What positive studies (in humans)? For what condition(s)?

#10 Renegade

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 04:57 PM

http://www.lef.org/a...itine_index.htm

If you dont want to sift through all the above.... http://www.lef.org/m...-Decline_01.htm
A 6-12-month randomized, placebo-controlled trial using 1,500-3,000 mg/day of acetyl-L-carnitine showed that patients taking this safe and effective supplement had statistically greater scores on tests of memory and other cognitive functions.

Edited by Renegade, 05 October 2012 - 04:58 PM.


#11 nowayout

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 07:19 PM

http://www.lef.org/a...itine_index.htm

If you dont want to sift through all the above.... http://www.lef.org/m...-Decline_01.htm
A 6-12-month randomized, placebo-controlled trial using 1,500-3,000 mg/day of acetyl-L-carnitine showed that patients taking this safe and effective supplement had statistically greater scores on tests of memory and other cognitive functions.


Okay, but that was on patients with MCI or Alzheimer's disease, hardly representative of a healthy population, so the doses would not be expected to be relevant for healthy people.

#12 Renegade

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 07:56 PM

I have seen studys done on healthy young adults demonstrating cognitive improvement at the relatively high doses. It does not therefore seem likely to me that it would impair, as you are suggesting. I will post the studies if I find them.

#13 nowayout

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 03:39 PM

I am not suggesting higher doses will impair you, but they may have side effects, as the OP's eperience (and mine) shows.

IME Alcar is definitely not a suitable supplement for someone who is a bit high strung, unless you want to be scraped off the ceiling. Unless perhaps they take very small doses.
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#14 Renegade

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 08:09 PM

What dosage works for you?

How much is 'too much' and how do you feel when you have taken 'too much?'

I will experiment with small and higher doses over the next few week and report back.

#15 victortsoi

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:04 PM

I just bought optimum cognition's 10mg noopept +200mg alcar +200 mg nalt pills. If i take 3 over the course of a day (600mg alcar), should I take ALA as well? I dont "like" ALA, but i obviously want to prevent damage. Thanks.

And yes, I have to say, even 200mg of alcar noticeably improves my endurance, mood, and thinking ability.

#16 niner

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:17 PM

No. You don't need ALA at that low of an ALCAR dose. If you took twelve grams of ALCAR in a day, then you might need it.

#17 Renegade

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:40 PM

I understand it's a grey area about ALCAR and oxidation. However, why is ALA always recommended as an anti oxidant and not, say, vitamin E? Is it due to ALA's potency?

#18 nowayout

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 11:23 AM

How much is 'too much' and how do you feel when you have taken 'too much?'


I wish I could use ALCAR for the possible anti-aging benefit, but I have never been able to endure taking it more than a few days.

500 mg gives me high anxiety, like having had too much coffee. 250 mg is better anxiety-wise but intensifies my chronic back pain (I currently have low-level but manageable pain but the ALCAR magnifies it and makes it feel unendurable and miserable). I haven't tried going lower.

I do take carnitine fumarate, which doesn't have these side effects.

Edited by viveutvivas, 16 October 2012 - 11:26 AM.


#19 niner

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 12:08 PM

I understand it's a grey area about ALCAR and oxidation. However, why is ALA always recommended as an anti oxidant and not, say, vitamin E? Is it due to ALA's potency?


It's one of the numerous supplement myths. It got started when in an early Ames paper, they gave animals a very large dose of ALCAR, and saw an increase in ROS. ALA counteracted this. Later they learned that lower doses (corresponding to high-normal human levels, a few grams/day as I recall, didn't cause the ROS production and worked better anyway. There is however some synergy between ALA and ALCAR even at low doses, so there is at least a small case to be made that it's helpful, but it's certainly not "required". Since the alleged ROS production would be mitochondrial, you'd want an antioxidant that would tend to localize there, or at least have the right level of hydrophobicity to make that reasonable. ALA is a good choice, although today that would be superseded by C60-oo. Vitamin E might work; vitamin C probably wouldn't.

#20 nowayout

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 02:56 PM

The problem with ALA is that very worrying finding that even a short period of ALA use caused CR to be ineffective in prolonging lifespan in rodents. This brings up the worry that ALA might be making certain permanent changes in your body that may make you unresponsive to future life-extension interventions.

I think this is a very good reason NOT to take ALA until more is known.

Edited by viveutvivas, 16 October 2012 - 02:57 PM.

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#21 Renegade

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 07:39 PM

The problem with ALA is that very worrying finding that even a short period of ALA use caused CR to be ineffective in prolonging lifespan in rodents. This brings up the worry that ALA might be making certain permanent changes in your body that may make you unresponsive to future life-extension interventions.

I think this is a very good reason NOT to take ALA until more is known.


+ the mercury redistribution concern. I'm staying away from ALA.

#22 Renegade

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 10:01 PM

I took 500mg tonight before a poker game. I felt quite foggy from it, surprisingly.

I will experiment with 250mg next week.

Any other experiences with ALCAR causing these reactions?

#23 Pirate

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 03:53 AM

250 mg is better anxiety-wise but intensifies my chronic back pain (I currently have low-level but manageable pain but the ALCAR magnifies it and makes it feel unendurable and miserable).


I'm just curious - what mechanism causes Alcar to affect back pain? (I don't actually know how Alcar works, or what it's supposed to be for, truth be told.)

#24 Renegade

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:24 PM

I have switched brands of ALCAR to Doctor's Best and it does seem to have a more pronounced effect in comparison to the other brands of ALCAR I have tried.
250mg yesterday morning I felt pretty good on. I noticed some clearer cognition and wakefulness. I did also however notice a bit of the anxty brain foggy feeling at some points.
Today I took 250mg in the morning and 250mg 3-4 hrs later. I felt more of the anxty foggy feelings this afternoon and 500mg over the space of a day may be too much for me.
I will keep experimenting. I may even give sub-250 a go.

#25 xsiv1

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:40 AM

I have switched brands of ALCAR to Doctor's Best and it does seem to have a more pronounced effect in comparison to the other brands of ALCAR I have tried.
250mg yesterday morning I felt pretty good on. I noticed some clearer cognition and wakefulness. I did also however notice a bit of the anxty brain foggy feeling at some points.
Today I took 250mg in the morning and 250mg 3-4 hrs later. I felt more of the anxty foggy feelings this afternoon and 500mg over the space of a day may be too much for me.
I will keep experimenting. I may even give sub-250 a go.


I haven't tried 250mgs as the brand I have comes in 500mg caps...I suppose I could halve the capsule. Anyways, I found 500 to be entirely too stimulating at first but decided to give it another go first thing in the morning and am now used to it. I like to stagger it's use though, so I'll utilize 500mgs/day a few days in a row for focus and then use DLPA at 500mgs a couple days in a row. I find they act similarly for me albeit through entirely different MOA. Strange. DLPA does seem to lift mood where ALCAR doesn't directly have any effect.

#26 Renegade

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 04:36 PM

I split a 500mg capsule. Interesting that you got 'climatised' to it. How long did it take? Has anyone else noticed this effect? Now you mention it, I didn't recall noticing as much over stimulation when I was taking it more consistently.

I wonder if in time you would be able to increase your dosage from 500mg without experiencing side effects.

Edited by Renegade, 14 November 2012 - 04:37 PM.


#27 xsiv1

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 06:13 PM

I split a 500mg capsule. Interesting that you got 'climatised' to it. How long did it take? Has anyone else noticed this effect? Now you mention it, I didn't recall noticing as much over stimulation when I was taking it more consistently.

I wonder if in time you would be able to increase your dosage from 500mg without experiencing side effects.


Well, I should add that I'd been taking it in the morning with either piracetam (1600mgs) and some choline or aniracetam with some choline and EFA's. This may skew what I was experiencing. Anyways, the first times I tried it with ALCAR, I found it entirely too stimulating...almost anxiogenic but not quite. I dropped it from my regimen within the first few days if I recall correctly. One morning where I was feeling particularly fatigued, I decided to try it again at 500 (which is what I limit it to for my daily dose)..again, in conjunction with one of the racetams and I feel the focus I've felt without any of the overstimulated feeling. More importantly, it didn't affect my sleep that night adversely. Now if we were to talk about Jarrow's Neuro Optimizer that also contains choline and ALCAR, man...that stuff was just insomnia in a bottle for me. I gave that a few chances thinking that I could use it in conjunction with a regular dose of a racetam and perhaps replace choline..but nope. Just wasn't for me. Each and every time, despite the early morning dose, it kept me awake at night. Nearly full bottle...wasted lol. Learning experience I suppose.

#28 stablemind

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:01 AM

ALCAR is very stimulating for me at 500mg doses, I have yet to try it with CDP Choline but I'm eager to test it out. Has anyone noticed synergy between the two?

#29 Renegade

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 02:34 PM

I am adding CDP choline to my stack after I have gotten a good gauge of the effects ALCAR has on me independently, at different doses. Has anyone had the experience of adding choline reducing the ALCAR side effects?

I took 250mg this morning, as I have been doing over the past week and I'm feeling really fogged out, slow and fatigued. I've had this feeling intermittently over the past week and I have a very strong feeling that its related to the ALCAR. I'm going to reduce to around 150mg tomorrow. I'm a little sceptical of the potential benefits of this dosage in comparison to the doses that are generally recommended, but I guess everyone is different (I seem to be particularly sensitive to noots) and there has not been studies comparing different dosages on cognition.

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#30 xsiv1

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 01:20 AM

I am adding CDP choline to my stack after I have gotten a good gauge of the effects ALCAR has on me independently, at different doses. Has anyone had the experience of adding choline reducing the ALCAR side effects?

I took 250mg this morning, as I have been doing over the past week and I'm feeling really fogged out, slow and fatigued. I've had this feeling intermittently over the past week and I have a very strong feeling that its related to the ALCAR. I'm going to reduce to around 150mg tomorrow. I'm a little sceptical of the potential benefits of this dosage in comparison to the doses that are generally recommended, but I guess everyone is different (I seem to be particularly sensitive to noots) and there has not been studies comparing different dosages on cognition.


Strange in that you're feeling fatigued but you're right..everyone is different. I normally use piracetam with CDP choline and ALCAR in the morning or the same with Aniracetam and some EFA's. I'm not sure you'll even notice 150, but it's certainly worth a try.





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