• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans

Photo
* * * * * 2 votes

Multivitamins do more harm than good?

multivitamins iron vitamins risk aging death free radicals ageing theory

  • Please log in to reply
139 replies to this topic

#31 edward

  • Guest
  • 1,404 posts
  • 23
  • Location:Southeast USA

Posted 05 November 2008 - 07:42 PM

Here in a nutshell is what this study is saying, direct quote from the article:

"On the contrary, vitamins A and E and beta carotene appear to slightly increase premature death rates among those taking them. Vitamin C and selenium have no effect"



My Opinion:
It seems to me, the common theme in the studies that show that A. "Vitamins" decrease survival B. "Vitamins" negate or prevent the positive effects of "stress" in the form of: CR, Ketogenic Diets and Exercise..... is:
Pure high dose essential antioxidant vitamins A, E, beta carotene and probably some other "pure" essential antioxidants need not be supplemented beyond a certain amount required for a healthy life and when you do supplement they should be in balanced form (all 8 isomers of vitamin E etc.)

Whether that is the RDA, a little bit more or less I don't know. It certainly justifys AORs approach to these nutrients in Orthocore and their Basic formula. Taking a day or two off of all supplements a week may also be of great value.

Edited by edward, 05 November 2008 - 07:49 PM.


#32 Mind

  • Life Member, Director, Moderator, Treasurer
  • 19,058 posts
  • 2,000
  • Location:Wausau, WI

Posted 10 February 2009 - 10:07 PM

Largest study yet finds supplemental vitamins do not change the cancer, heart disease, or mortality rate in women.

The study's lead author, researcher Marian Neuhouser of the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center in Seattle, offered this advice: "Get nutrients from food. Whole foods are better than dietary supplements," Neuhouser said.

The study appears in Monday's Archives of Internal Medicine.

Co-author Dr. JoAnn Manson said despite the disappointing results, the research doesn't mean multivitamins are useless.

For one thing, the data are observational, not the most rigorous kind of scientific research. And also, it's not clear if taking vitamins might help prevent cancers that take many years to develop, said Manson, chief of preventive medicine at Harvard's Brigham & Women's Hospital.

She said multivitamins may still be useful "as a form of insurance" for people with poor eating habits.

The study involved an analysis of data on women in their 50s and up who participated in long-running government studies on postmenopausal women. Almost 42 percent of the women said they used multivitamins regularly.

After about eight years, roughly equal numbers of vitamin users and nonusers developed common cancers, heart attacks and other cardiovascular problems. Overall, there were 9,619 cases of cancer, including cancers of the breast, lung, ovary, colon and stomach; and 8,751 cardiovascular ailments including heart attacks and strokes. In addition, 9,865 women died, also at similar rates in multivitamin users and nonusers.


I eat a balanced diet with berries and green leafy veggies, drink green tea, and whatnot, but I still take 1/3 to 1/2 dose ortho-core everyday. Based on the evidence and the extremely wide variety of nutrients in ortho-core I figure it is reasonable expenditure.

sponsored ad

  • Advert
Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for SUPPLEMENTS (in thread) to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

#33 FunkOdyssey

  • Guest
  • 3,443 posts
  • 166
  • Location:Manchester, CT USA

Posted 10 February 2009 - 10:18 PM

A point of correction -- the title should read:

Largest study yet finds [the particular] supplemental vitamins [consumed by this group] do not change the cancer, heart disease, or mortality rate in [these] women.

It makes a strong case against any expectations we might have had that Centrum or similar crap would improve health outcomes. Not that anyone here held such illusions.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 10 February 2009 - 10:18 PM.


#34 Prometheus

  • Guest
  • 592 posts
  • -3
  • Location:right behind you

Posted 10 February 2009 - 10:25 PM

There are 3 vitamins that are synthesized by gut bacteria and given variations in diet and other factors that may alter microbiota populations (including antibiotic use) should be supplemented: K, biotin and B12..

#35 ajnast4r

  • Guest, F@H
  • 3,925 posts
  • 147
  • Location:USA
  • NO

Posted 11 February 2009 - 07:12 AM

A point of correction -- the title should read:

Largest study yet finds [the particular] supplemental vitamins [consumed by this group] do not change the cancer, heart disease, or mortality rate in [these] women.

It makes a strong case against any expectations we might have had that Centrum or similar crap would improve health outcomes. Not that anyone here held such illusions.


pay this man

#36 nowayout

  • Guest
  • 2,946 posts
  • 439
  • Location:Earth

Posted 11 February 2009 - 01:26 PM

anyone who tells you a moderatly dosed PROPER multivitamin isnt going to benefit you is an IDIOT



Not necessarily. Look at this study that claims that even moderate doses of common B-vitamins can increase genomic mutation frequency. Okay, it is another observational study of the kind I myself just panned in another thread, but for what it is worth, I take from this that one should be prudent.

http://carcin.oxford...t/full/26/5/991


<font size="-1"> <a href="http://carcin.oxford...sc/terms.shtml" target="_blank">Carcinogenesis vol.26 no.5 © Oxford University Press 2005; all rights reserved.</a> </font>



<b> Low intake of calcium, folate, nicotinic acid, vitamin E, retinol, ß-carotene and high intake of pantothenic acid, biotin and riboflavin are significantly associated with increased genome instability—results from a dietary intake and micronucleus index survey in South Australia </b>
<b> Michael Fenech<sup> *</sup>, Peter Baghurst<sup> 1</sup>, Wayne Luderer, Julie Turner, Sally Record, Marcello Ceppi<sup> 2</sup> and Stefano Bonassi<sup> 2</sup> </b> <font size="-1"> CSIRO Health Sciences and Nutrition, Adelaide, Australia, <sup>1</sup> Women's and Children's Hospital, Adelaide, Australia and <sup>2</sup> Unit of Environmental Epidemiology and Biostatistics, National Cancer Research Institute, Genoa, Italy </font>



This table is particularly interesting:

http://carcin.oxford...l/26/5/991/TBL3

Edited by andre, 11 February 2009 - 01:28 PM.


#37 FunkOdyssey

  • Guest
  • 3,443 posts
  • 166
  • Location:Manchester, CT USA

Posted 11 February 2009 - 04:15 PM

So biotin at 300mcg/day looks like a lethal killer based on that study, and that dose is found in almost every single multivitamin including the absolute most conservative AOR product. What are the real life consequences of all that rampant genomic instability among multivitamin users? Are they dropping like flies and growing tumors like Chernobyl victims?

Or is there something artifactual about the data, confounding variables related to the food sources perhaps (think about where b-vitamins come from on the Standard American Diet)? Which seems more likely to you?

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 11 February 2009 - 04:20 PM.


#38 kismet

  • Guest
  • 2,984 posts
  • 424
  • Location:Austria, Vienna

Posted 11 February 2009 - 04:50 PM

It makes a strong case against any expectations we might have had that Centrum or similar crap would improve health outcomes. Not that anyone here held such illusions.

Personally I am glad, although rather surprised, it didn't harm them.

So biotin at 300mcg/day looks like a lethal killer based on that study, and that dose is found in almost every single multivitamin including the absolute most conservative AOR product. What are the real life consequences of all that rampant genomic instability among multivitamin users? Are they dropping like flies and growing tumors like Chernobyl victims?

Or is there something artifactual about the data, confounding variables related to the food sources perhaps (think about where b-vitamins come from on the Standard American Diet)? Which seems more likely to you?

I really like the study Andre brought up and I feel it has not been discussed thoroughly enough (although we discused it long ago). IIRC it's the one using the micronucleus frequency assay. I am, however, not able to comment on their methodology.
Although I would hardly say that "common B-vitamins can increase genomic mutation frequency". Common B-vitamins to me are b1, b6 and b12, which were not tested. Riboflavin is commonly called b2 and folic acid is sometimes called b-something, but that's ridiculous, let's not use those arbitrary names as there is no (meaningful) structural relationship between the so called B-vitamins. However, nicotinic (b3) acid and folic acid (b something) reduced MN formation. Biotin rarely is called a B-vitamin these days.
So one common B-vitamin might increase genomic mutation frequency, which I have emphasised since I read the study.  ;)
If you say "common B-vitamins" you unnecessarily imply most B-vitamins would act the same, but they are not similar, their functions are distinct - we simply don't know what b1, b6 and b12 might do.

Edited by kismet, 11 February 2009 - 05:21 PM.


#39 ajnast4r

  • Guest, F@H
  • 3,925 posts
  • 147
  • Location:USA
  • NO

Posted 11 February 2009 - 05:31 PM

Not necessarily. Look at this study that claims that even moderate doses of common B-vitamins can increase genomic mutation frequency. Okay, it is another observational study of the kind I myself just panned in another thread, but for what it is worth, I take from this that one should be prudent.

http://carcin.oxford...t/full/26/5/991


<font size="-1"> <a href="http://carcin.oxford...sc/terms.shtml" target="_blank">Carcinogenesis vol.26 no.5 © Oxford University Press 2005; all rights reserved.</a> </font>



<b> Low intake of calcium, folate, nicotinic acid, vitamin E, retinol, ß-carotene and high intake of pantothenic acid, biotin and riboflavin are significantly associated with increased genome instability—results from a dietary intake and micronucleus index survey in South Australia </b>
<b> Michael Fenech<sup> *</sup>, Peter Baghurst<sup> 1</sup>, Wayne Luderer, Julie Turner, Sally Record, Marcello Ceppi<sup> 2</sup> and Stefano Bonassi<sup> 2</sup> </b> <font size="-1"> CSIRO Health Sciences and Nutrition, Adelaide, Australia, <sup>1</sup> Women's and Children's Hospital, Adelaide, Australia and <sup>2</sup> Unit of Environmental Epidemiology and Biostatistics, National Cancer Research Institute, Genoa, Italy </font>



This table is particularly interesting:

http://carcin.oxford...l/26/5/991/TBL3



old thread is old. that study starts with the conditions of low ca,fa,b3,etc... which would be eliminated by taking a multivitamin. my spider sense tells me the low folate may have played a large role in the high incidence of genetic damage.

i dont understand how people can look at studies like that, and conclude that supplementation is problematic? its kind of like ripping a bunch of wires and hoses out of the engine & then installing a performance exhaust on a car, but then saying LOOK! that exhaust made the car worse! no... the exhaust wasn't the problem, the problem is that you started with a car that didnt have all the wires and hoses it needed to function properly to begin with.

Edited by ajnast4r, 11 February 2009 - 05:35 PM.


#40 aikikai

  • Guest
  • 251 posts
  • 0

Posted 12 February 2009 - 08:32 AM

I love vitamins.

#41 nowayout

  • Guest
  • 2,946 posts
  • 439
  • Location:Earth

Posted 12 February 2009 - 02:21 PM

Not necessarily. Look at this study that claims that even moderate doses of common B-vitamins can increase genomic mutation frequency. Okay, it is another observational study of the kind I myself just panned in another thread, but for what it is worth, I take from this that one should be prudent.

http://carcin.oxford...t/full/26/5/991


<font size="-1"> <a href="http://carcin.oxford...sc/terms.shtml" target="_blank">Carcinogenesis vol.26 no.5 © Oxford University Press 2005; all rights reserved.</a> </font>



<b> Low intake of calcium, folate, nicotinic acid, vitamin E, retinol, ß-carotene and high intake of pantothenic acid, biotin and riboflavin are significantly associated with increased genome instability—results from a dietary intake and micronucleus index survey in South Australia </b>
<b> Michael Fenech<sup> *</sup>, Peter Baghurst<sup> 1</sup>, Wayne Luderer, Julie Turner, Sally Record, Marcello Ceppi<sup> 2</sup> and Stefano Bonassi<sup> 2</sup> </b> <font size="-1"> CSIRO Health Sciences and Nutrition, Adelaide, Australia, <sup>1</sup> Women's and Children's Hospital, Adelaide, Australia and <sup>2</sup> Unit of Environmental Epidemiology and Biostatistics, National Cancer Research Institute, Genoa, Italy </font>



This table is particularly interesting:

http://carcin.oxford...l/26/5/991/TBL3



old thread is old. that study starts with the conditions of low ca,fa,b3,etc... which would be eliminated by taking a multivitamin. my spider sense tells me the low folate may have played a large role in the high incidence of genetic damage.


That is not at all what the study says. For example, even in the highest tertile of folate intake, the deleterious effect of the highest tertile of riboflavin intake is still 30%.

The study shows that various substances have a U-shaped response, that some substances are deleterious at all tertiles of intake (for the studied outcome), and it claims that the effect of combinations of substances are additive, not multiplicative (in other words, not really synergistic).

Due to the U-shaped responses of some substances and the uniformly deleterious effects (for this outcome) of others, it would be incorrect to conclude that you "would eliminate [the problems] by taking a multivitamin". Anyone who does this without at least incorporating their dietary intakes into their calculations is not doing themselves any favours.

#42 kismet

  • Guest
  • 2,984 posts
  • 424
  • Location:Austria, Vienna

Posted 12 February 2009 - 04:00 PM

First we should define how important MN frequency is. Is it a sensitive and sensible marker of mutagenesis? What does an increase of X% mean IRL? What does mutagenesis mean? Only cancer matters (as per Aubrey d.G.) or something else? Could there be benefical effects of those "mutagenic" doses e.g. as coenzymes offsetting possible side-effects? What does the interventional and epidemiologic data say (as compared to this completely mechanistic result; although I remember that they also analysed a cohort trying to reconcile their new findings with their cohort's cancer incidence..)

Edited by kismet, 12 February 2009 - 04:02 PM.


#43 bgwithadd

  • Guest
  • 820 posts
  • 16

Posted 12 February 2009 - 05:12 PM

The most important thing to realize is that there are positive and negative studies for virtually any scientific area of research. There's no such thing as conclusively proving anything in science, which is the mistake that the original poster makes. With that in mind, the articles posted here are laughable, especially the first one.

There is a concept of a 'preponderance of evidence', and that (in different words) is the core basis of science. Period. With that in mind, if you turned the same preposterous mindset onto drugs then even the most common drugs we've been using for nearly 100 years would be in serious question. In fact, many of them should be. There's been no long term study of the vast majority of drugs out there, and it's becoming more and more likely seeming that many of them do more harm than good. Somehow supplements get put under a much more critical eye than FDA approved drugs, which is completely ludicrous. There have been more studies performed on many supplements than on the vast majority of drugs approved by the FDA, and virtually every vitamin has had more research performed on it than any drug ever made.

Sure, there is good science and bad science, and unlike most people I don't think resveratrol has much going for it and I would be pretty cautious taking a ton of chelating agents or super high antioxident levels. However, anyone who swallows this crap 1) knows nothing of science 2) knows nothing of supplements and 3) knows nothing of drugs.

#44 nowayout

  • Guest
  • 2,946 posts
  • 439
  • Location:Earth

Posted 12 February 2009 - 05:36 PM

Somehow supplements get put under a much more critical eye than FDA approved drugs, which is completely ludicrous.


No they do not.

There is a concept of a 'preponderance of evidence', and that (in different words) is the core basis of science.


Take it from a scientist - no, it is not. It takes only one counterexample to sink a theory.

There have been more studies performed on many supplements than on the vast majority of drugs approved by the FDA, and virtually every vitamin has had more research performed on it than any drug ever made.


Not true.

Sure, there is good science and bad science, and unlike most people I don't think resveratrol has much going for it and I would be pretty cautious taking a ton of chelating agents or super high antioxident levels. However, anyone who swallows this crap 1) knows nothing of science 2) knows nothing of supplements and 3) knows nothing of drugs.


Make up your mind. First you say vitamins are fine because more research has been performed on them, and then you slam people for actually quoting some of that research. Can't have it both ways.

Edited by andre, 12 February 2009 - 05:44 PM.


#45 nowayout

  • Guest
  • 2,946 posts
  • 439
  • Location:Earth

Posted 12 February 2009 - 05:41 PM

First we should define how important MN frequency is. Is it a sensitive and sensible marker of mutagenesis? What does an increase of X% mean IRL? What does mutagenesis mean? Only cancer matters (as per Aubrey d.G.) or something else? Could there be benefical effects of those "mutagenic" doses e.g. as coenzymes offsetting possible side-effects? What does the interventional and epidemiologic data say (as compared to this completely mechanistic result; although I remember that they also analysed a cohort trying to reconcile their new findings with their cohort's cancer incidence..)


Agreed, the study probably raises more questions than it answers. In the meantime, what should one do? For me it seems safest to stick with the RDAs for now, making sure one includes one's diet in the calculations.

Actually I am mostly over the RDAs already from my diet alone, but I'm not going to worry about that. Activity levels and metabolisms differ, and I don't supplement much vitamins anyway.

Edited by andre, 12 February 2009 - 05:46 PM.


#46 FunkOdyssey

  • Guest
  • 3,443 posts
  • 166
  • Location:Manchester, CT USA

Posted 12 February 2009 - 05:49 PM

In the meantime, what should one do? For me it seems safest to stick with the RDAs for now, making sure one includes one's diet in the calculations.


Slow down there wild man. You know it only took 19mcg of biotin to increase genomic instability in that study right? And you want to take 300mcg? I never thought you to be the reckless type. ;)

You used that study as evidence that a well-formulated multivitamin could be unsafe and then you want to ignore its findings? You can't have it both ways -- make up your mind.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 12 February 2009 - 06:04 PM.


#47 kismet

  • Guest
  • 2,984 posts
  • 424
  • Location:Austria, Vienna

Posted 12 February 2009 - 06:27 PM

Take it from a scientist - no, it is not. It takes only one counterexample to sink a theory.

Don't exaggerate. There's always a non-zero chance of falsely accepting the null-hypothesis (that'd be a type II error I guess). In many cases one finding certainly could "sink a theory", but many a false negative has doomed whole fields of research to see them revived decades later. Although more often it's the misinterpretation of facts which dooms whole fields: "CR is just a lab curiosity", "Arterial calcification is a completely natural and non-pathological process" and one of my favorites "Antibiotics are cheap and will cure everything, who needs resarch into alterantive treatments, including phage therapy and whole blood irradiation [which could have shown decades ago if and how it works, maybe it's pharmacologic vitamin D production as implied by Dr. Cannell]."

Funk, I think there's room for a new fad diet. How about biotin restriction (BR)? Although isn't the RDA 30, not 300mcg? (as per wikipedia)

Edited by kismet, 12 February 2009 - 09:31 PM.


#48 FunkOdyssey

  • Guest
  • 3,443 posts
  • 166
  • Location:Manchester, CT USA

Posted 12 February 2009 - 06:39 PM

The information I've read indicates there is an Adequate Intake level of 30mcg which was set by the Food and Nutrition Board of the Institute of Medicine in 1998, and then I see the RDA (Recommended Daily Allowance) is 300mcg everywhere else I've looked.

#49 bgwithadd

  • Guest
  • 820 posts
  • 16

Posted 12 February 2009 - 09:01 PM

Somehow supplements get put under a much more critical eye than FDA approved drugs, which is completely ludicrous.


No they do not.

Yes, they do, as this article and many others show so obviously. Somehow a rubber stamp by the FDA is enough to completely dispel any doubts in most people's minds about a drug. I guess we can play the no they don't yes they do game all day long so I will simply assume you have problems with reading comprehension and not argue this point any further. There's a huge volume of data on some supplements, and more so on vitamins, though of course some supplements have very little data as well.

There is a concept of a 'preponderance of evidence', and that (in different words) is the core basis of science.


Take it from a scientist - no, it is not. It takes only one counterexample to sink a theory.

If you were a scientist, you'd know there's a difference between proving and disproving something (if you don't, then you need to take more math). Everything in science is theory, though some parts are much less easily challenged than others. Even so, even basic scientific principals are constantly being shown to work slightly differently than was believed.

I have worked in bioinfometrics, and believe me I know all too well the intelligence and knowledge of the average 'scientist', and their understanding of the scientific method. A layman can pick up a 4th year biology or chemistry textbook and understand each word. Not so with subjects that truly require logic. All of science hinges on basic premises, and since the basic premises are not provable, nothing else is truly provable. If you don't know that, then you simply are not a scientist, no matter what your degree or place of employment. I'd say that maybe 10% of so called scientists seem to get this principle (even though it's at the core of all scientific research), so don't feel too bad.

There have been more studies performed on many supplements than on the vast majority of drugs approved by the FDA, and virtually every vitamin has had more research performed on it than any drug ever made.


Not true.

Are you trolling here? Do you honestly believe this? Some drugs have a lot of studies, but most have a relatively small number...founded by the company that made it, and often tampered with to varying degrees. There have been countless studies performed on every vitamin in existence. I'll grant that I don't have any easy way to count the studies but I'd have to say you are as full of it here as when claiming to be a scientist (and I stick by these words whatever your credentials). Certainly, at any rate there's enough studies out there to say that vitamins are necessary to life. As far as I know that is the definition of a vitamin.

Sure, there is good science and bad science, and unlike most people I don't think resveratrol has much going for it and I would be pretty cautious taking a ton of chelating agents or super high antioxident levels. However, anyone who swallows this crap 1) knows nothing of science 2) knows nothing of supplements and 3) knows nothing of drugs.


Make up your mind. First you say vitamins are fine because more research has been performed on them, and then you slam people for actually quoting some of that research. Can't have it both ways.

Sure I can.

The study linked proves nothing at all. Being deficient in one thing and then taking lots of another means that the stuff you did take is bad for you? Hopefuly I don't have to point out the basic logic flaw there.

More importantly, though, I do not break continuity with my own logic. As I said from the start, one piece of evidence means nothing. Otherwise, why have peer review at all?

Just because some jackass makes a claim doesn't mean it has any basis in reality. Even if the science behind it were good, which it's obviously not even to a third grader, that doesn't mean that they are not simply making it up or else performed their study incorrectly or intentionally cherry picked their data set because of some agenda - and when billions of dollars are at stake to drug companies it's easy to see why that could (and often does) happen.

#50 kismet

  • Guest
  • 2,984 posts
  • 424
  • Location:Austria, Vienna

Posted 12 February 2009 - 09:22 PM

Actually Andre is right on many points. We can hardly deny that there is simply not much quality *interventional* research being done into (many, but not all) supplements - for obvious reasons (they don't make enough money to pharma companies). Do you know the Rofecoxib (Vioxx) issue? It has been put through dozens of huge interventional studies all assessing efficacy and safety; it turned out not so well, can you imagine what would happen if each and every supplement would go through such studies? I bet we would find out some pretty inconvenient details. We have a lot of extremely weak (e.g. small, flawed, etc) studies for all kinds of vitamin/mineral supplementation; in most bigger and well-designed interventional studies they failed (ask Michael..).

I think he is simply talking about study quality. If you are talking about unfair legislation and suppression by FDA and pharma companies (e.g. the pyridoxamine/P5P issue) you may be right too, but those are two separate issues. Take vitamin D for instance, you are right, it is "under a much more critical [unfair, idiotic and biased] eye than FDA approved drugs [at least much more critical than it should be]", but Andre is right too, Vitamin D is one of the best supported supplements (by both epidemiological and interventional trials), but interventional data is severely lacking regardless.

Edited by kismet, 12 February 2009 - 09:30 PM.


#51 nowayout

  • Guest
  • 2,946 posts
  • 439
  • Location:Earth

Posted 13 February 2009 - 04:47 PM

There is a concept of a 'preponderance of evidence', and that (in different words) is the core basis of science. Period. ...

If you were a scientist, ...


You gave a manifestly wrong characterization of the scientific method in your original, which I rightly challenged. No amount of ad hominem insults is going to change that. I teach the bloody stuff to my freshmen every bloody year.

There have been more studies performed on many supplements than on the vast majority of drugs approved by the FDA, and virtually every vitamin has had more research performed on it than any drug ever made.


Not true.

Are you trolling here? Do you honestly believe this?


As kismet responded.

On a different note, people seem to have a very emotional attachment to their supplements, in many cases with little rational basis. I myself have on occasion been guilty of this. It was not my intention to start a flame war, but how is one supposed to get any real information out of the whole mess if even mentioning any detractory information elicits this kind of response? We're all trying to get to some level of truth, and we should all be willing to question our own dogmas... and simmer down a little... ;o)

Edited by andre, 13 February 2009 - 04:58 PM.


#52 nowayout

  • Guest
  • 2,946 posts
  • 439
  • Location:Earth

Posted 13 February 2009 - 07:29 PM

In the meantime, what should one do? For me it seems safest to stick with the RDAs for now, making sure one includes one's diet in the calculations.


Slow down there wild man. You know it only took 19mcg of biotin to increase genomic instability in that study right? And you want to take 300mcg? I never thought you to be the reckless type. ;o)


You are right, I missed that. In my defence, I have been taking less than 30mcg supplementary biotin daily.

Anyway, I am chucking out my multi altogether from my regime. My diet is already more than excellent and I am generally healthy and I exercise. I might add individual things back in if I see enough double-blind, controlled interventional studies in humans that include proper dose-ranging and side effect analyses, showing clear benefit for clearly defined outcomes on generally healthy people who exercise and eat properly (although I realize I may have to compromise on this, given the average overweight, sedentary, malnourished study subject), and addressing cautionary concerns that have been raised by previous studies. I would welcome such rigorous studies on supplements, which are routinely done for FDA approval of drugs, as much as anyone else here.

Until then, let me just say that I am a little older than some of the people on this forum and have seen and followed several vitamin-related fads starting in the eighties, most initially supported by some studies and later discredited (mega C, mega beta-carotene, mega alpha-tocopherol), in the course of which I have probably done some net damage to myself, so I am a little more jaded and cautious than most.

Edited by andre, 13 February 2009 - 07:30 PM.


#53 FunkOdyssey

  • Guest
  • 3,443 posts
  • 166
  • Location:Manchester, CT USA

Posted 13 February 2009 - 07:43 PM

Until then, let me just say that I am a little older than some of the people on this forum and have seen and followed several vitamin-related fads starting in the eighties, most initially supported by some studies and later discredited (mega C, mega beta-carotene, mega alpha-tocopherol), in the course of which I have probably done some net damage to myself, so I am a little more jaded and cautious than most.


We've surely been burned enough in the past on the health topics you mention, and others including the low-fat, high grain diet that was pushed on us. So I do understand your perspective.

#54 nowayout

  • Guest
  • 2,946 posts
  • 439
  • Location:Earth

Posted 13 February 2009 - 09:45 PM

We've surely been burned enough in the past on the health topics you mention, and others including the low-fat, high grain diet that was pushed on us. So I do understand your perspective.


Oh yes, I forgot about that one. Need I mention that I was on the low fat bandwagon as well for about ten years? ;o)

#55 drmz

  • Guest
  • 574 posts
  • 10
  • Location:netherlands

Posted 26 February 2009 - 07:45 PM

Searched my ass of but i couldn't find the right topic to add the Linus Pauling response >

response by the Linus Pauling Institute to an article published in the February 2009 issue of the Archives of Internal Medicine.

A study published recently in the medical journal Archives of Internal Medicine (Arch Intern Med. 2009;169(3):294-304), which followed 161,808 women from the Women's Health Initiative over eight years, claimed to provide "convincing evidence that multivitamin use has little or no influence on the risk of common cancers, cardiovascular disease, or total mortality in postmenopausal women." This message was immediately sent around the world by the news media, leading people everywhere to believe that taking a daily multivitamin does no good and is a waste of money. Is it, really? Actually, nothing could be further from the truth.

The study was an observational study, not a randomized controlled trial. Both types of studies are called "epidemiological" or population-based studies, but there is a fundamental difference between the two of them. As its name implies, an observational study "observes" what people do, what they eat, what dietary supplements they take, how they live, and what kind of diseases they develop. Randomized controlled trials take a group of subjects and randomly assign half of them to get a specific treatment, for example, a certain pharmaceutical drug or vitamin, and the other half gets a dummy pill, or placebo. After several years, researchers assess whether those who got the actual treatment develop less disease than those who got the placebo.

Every epidemiologist will tell you that observational studies cannot establish cause-and-effect relationships; they only can observe associations. For example, a study may find that intake of a certain vitamin was associated with a lower incidence of a specific disease. Whether that vitamin was the cause for the decreased disease risk cannot be answered by an observational study. In order to answer that question, a randomized controlled trial is necessary. In other words, every epidemiologist knows that observational studies are only good enough to generate a new hypothesis, like "multivitamins might not lower risk of heart disease", but this hypothesis needs to be tested in randomized controlled trials to either prove it, establishing a cause-and-effect relationship, or refute it. Unless and until such trials have been conducted, one cannot draw any conclusions regarding causality, let alone make recommendations for the public.

More at Linus Pauling Institute

Edited by drmz, 26 February 2009 - 07:46 PM.


#56 nameless

  • Guest
  • 2,268 posts
  • 137

Posted 26 February 2009 - 08:15 PM

I personally don't expect most multivitamins to reduce the risk of cancers or heart disease. I mean... why should they? Most include synthetic beta carotene, with no mixed carotenoids. Vitamin E is generally Alpha only, and quite often synthetic. A lot of the 'good' brands have too much Alpha only, and the bad brands use synthetic.

And if vitamin C does have some heart or cancer benefits, I don't think the RDA level would do a whole lot. Even higher doses of C, in the 500mg or so range haven't shown much benefit there. And I'm not aware of any high dose C (Pauling levels) studies on heart disease.

What would be useful is a controlled trial, with a well formulated multi. I still really wouldn't expect much benefit for mortality rates, but perhaps general health would be improved for most people taking the multi.

Edited by nameless, 26 February 2009 - 08:18 PM.


#57 Ellipticality

  • Guest
  • 43 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Canada

Posted 11 October 2011 - 06:33 PM

After looking at the health history and supplement intake of 38,772 American women in their 50s and 60s, scientists at the University of Eastern Finland and the University of Minnesota say that the use of multivitamins is associated with a 2.4 per cent increased risk of earlier death in older women. The average age of those in the group was 61

Read more: http://www.canada.co...l#ixzz1aUzLXPk4


If multivitamins are 'bad' for older woman it seems likely that it doesn't do younger woman much good either, or men, but, maybe the problem lies with just the iron, or at least only some of the ingredients.

Are there any studies that show vitamin use to be beneficial for longevity, or just health in general?

#58 Logan

  • Guest
  • 1,869 posts
  • 173
  • Location:Arlington, VA

Posted 11 October 2011 - 07:49 PM

It's not multivitamins per say, it's the mega doses of individual vitamins/minerals that people have been taking for long periods, especially metals like zinc, iron, and copper.

#59 hippocampus

  • Guest
  • 736 posts
  • 112
  • Location:medial temporal lobe, brain

Posted 11 October 2011 - 10:09 PM

well, it's been "proven" that long-term high doses of follic acid and vitamin E increase all-cause mortality and that beta-caroten increases all-cause mortality (or just lung cancer?) between smokers (and possibly passive smokers?). i don't really like multivitamins, you never know what you get and mostly the forms of nutrients are low quality - which can explain what's OP is talking about: people care less about their health because they think: i'm taking multivitamin anyway so some junk food won't hurt me. but the problem is that multivitamin may not really be working ...

sponsored ad

  • Advert
Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for SUPPLEMENTS (in thread) to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

#60 pamojja

  • Guest
  • 2,841 posts
  • 722
  • Location:Austria

Posted 11 October 2011 - 10:20 PM

I never even thought about vitamins unless a serious medical condition struck. With high dose nutrients I was able to alleviate most debilitating symptoms for which medicine had no answer.

And if I die earlier a study will say it was due to high doses supplements. Yeah, just as a much higher percentage dies earlier taking pharmacological medicine..





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: multivitamins, iron, vitamins, risk, aging, death, free radicals, ageing, theory

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users