LONGECITY

I had a crazy creative burst yesterday. I wondered if Selegiline had any effects on NMDA or AMPA receptors, but I came across this: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21338509 which states, "On the opposite, only selegiline attenuated kainate receptor mediated increases of excitability." Don't know much about Kainate receptors, but they are involved in seizures. Fun stuff. More fun stuff: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16202473. Who doesn't love a good ol shake rattle and foam?

On the contrary, http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17100591 states that it protects from glutamate-related excitotoxicity and increases cAMP (which would explain the hyperactivity and creativity). It also helps return amino acid levels to normal: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20213513 which glutamate (and aspartate) is one of mentioned.

Anyone else know why I had a crazy burst of creativity? It's like Pramiracetam as of recent.
Edited by devinthayer, 24 October 2011 - 07:26 PM.

Despite the hype about interactions with chocolate, I haven't had any so far. I've had 1/2 a Babe Ruth candy bar and a chocolate chocolate covered doughnut this morning. No twitching. Slightly warm in the face, but that's it.

I've also had a half a cup of coffee, and recently 2oz of Full Throttle. I can tell you this... it feels less jittery, but more energy. I don't "need" as much caffeine, so I'm actually experiencing a very positive small interaction. Less is more. I do see a potential for abuse, but not with myself. I can't imagine having more than 2oz of full throttle... I'm way too buzzed from that alone. It's just going to sit on my desk for another hour before the next sip.

Overall, the mixed bag of hyperness and happiness have not died down that much, but they did a small bit. I do experience a crash about 10-12 hours after administration of 5mg. This crash is a lethargy comparable to what Nortriptyline gave me or like a light coffee crash. Not having any coffee past 7:30am, I'd say this was not a coffee crash. Probably the metabolites leaving my system.

I'm feeling warm in the face again. I've had no chocolate, just another dose. Is this a common side effect? I don't see it listed on PubMed. I am not sweating, just have an unusual flushing, almost like too much niacin. This happens a lot, now that I think about it.

http://www.medicinen...ral/article.htm

Guess it should subside as my body gets used to it. Good thing I looked a wee bit harder. Amazing what light a little Google search can bring.
Edited by devinthayer, 25 October 2011 - 07:20 PM.

I'm starting to wonder if its serotonergic effects are entirely presynaptic. Are there any studies showing it crosses the BBB? I can't find any specifically stating that, but you might have better luck possibly finding a study with that implication (like this one mentioning a part of the brain). During a search, I found that it does influence insulin levels, which does cross the BBB, providing a stimulating effect (increasing DA and NE). If the serotonergic effects are mostly pre-synaptic, this would actually reduce serotonin toxicity from MAO inhibitors like Selegiline.

I'm not sure if it crosses the BBB, but I had the same idea with it regarding serotonin syndrome. Research progress with Tianeptine is pretty slow, I think since it went off-patent, but it was probably "taboo" in the beginning because of its relation to Amineptine. I really wish Amineptine was more abundant.

I'm starting to wonder if its serotonergic effects are entirely presynaptic. Are there any studies showing it crosses the BBB? I can't find any specifically stating that, but you might have better luck possibly finding a study with that implication (like this one mentioning a part of the brain). During a search, I found that it does influence insulin levels, which does cross the BBB, providing a stimulating effect (increasing DA and NE). If the serotonergic effects are mostly pre-synaptic, this would actually reduce serotonin toxicity from MAO inhibitors like Selegiline.

I'm not sure if it crosses the BBB, but I had the same idea with it regarding serotonin syndrome. Research progress with Tianeptine is pretty slow, I think since it went off-patent, but it was probably "taboo" in the beginning because of its relation to Amineptine. I really wish Amineptine was more abundant.

Tis a real shame. Perhaps some day we'll spawn a nootropic movement. Bring it back.

I find deprenyl to be good for ADD. It makes my mind sharper and more focused, also quicker. But in that it is dopaminergic mainly and doesn't increase NE, it may not be as stimulating as other meds (some people even get sleepy later).If that is you, I'd advise some green tea, or I do powdered Nestea (not much sugar in the powder; horrendous levels in the 7-11 plastic ready-to-drink bottles-which I avoid).

Green tea is great advice. It's got some pretty strong COMT inhibitors to help with NE levels. However, the green tea is for whatever reason a huge irritant on the exposed pulp of my tooth. It gives me an itching headache behind my eye down through my ear and into the tooth. In addition, I haven't found any natural COMT inhibitors that also don't inhibit telomerase or topoisomerase... perhaps rosmarinic acid or some other larger plant catechol I can find that crosses the BBB...

You know what, I have some green tea with acai down stairs. I should give those a shot when I need some work done.

This is a week and a half into treatment with Selegiline. Unfortunately, I have not seen signicant improvements in ADHD. Youthfulness is the primary benefit. I feel much more like a kid again, and when I was a kid, I seemed to get into a lot more new things, have a lot more fun. It's helped me have a more positive outlook on life in general, and that itself is very therapeutic against ADHD in a very round-about way. Procrastination is still an issue, but at least it doesn't upset me as much and ruin my mood.

However, I was able to bang out a project last night with just a half a cup of coffee and some fruit juice. That's awesome for me.

The major side effects seem to be hyperactivity and increased bowel movements. Pupils dilate much easier and faster. I feel either buzzed or tired, there is really no in between. Tiredness can be overcome with tea or coffee, just a half a cup, anymore and I am wired. It seems to synergize with Ashagandha quite well. I have noticed no interactions with Swiss cheese, despite the warnings.

im just wondering, as im considering coming to my psych doctor with this, as she has , to my objection tried to put me back on Vyvanse (lisdexamfetamine), im currently taking Armodafinil, which i find to be working quite adequately for ADHD with supplementation of piracetam, but i have always been curious about selegiline.

can you compare the two at all?
i mean obviously they are two completely different mechanisms, but still dopaminergic in one form or another. I find i do get a creative edge and 'euphoria' from the armoda, though its not a pushy manic creative amphetamine euphoria , where when it goes away i can still enjoy the mood enhancing qualities.... im just wondering if its worth it to go for the all around positive selegiline experience or keep the more productive armoda, im assuming they cant be taken simultaneously....

im just wondering, as im considering coming to my psych doctor with this, as she has , to my objection tried to put me back on Vyvanse (lisdexamfetamine), im currently taking Armodafinil, which i find to be working quite adequately for ADHD with supplementation of piracetam, but i have always been curious about selegiline.

can you compare the two at all?
i mean obviously they are two completely different mechanisms, but still dopaminergic in one form or another. I find i do get a creative edge and 'euphoria' from the armoda, though its not a pushy manic creative amphetamine euphoria , where when it goes away i can still enjoy the mood enhancing qualities.... im just wondering if its worth it to go for the all around positive selegiline experience or keep the more productive armoda, im assuming they cant be taken simultaneously....

I've taken amphetamines and modafinil. I am very curious to try them together at half dose (100mg modafinil with 5mg of selegiline), because each one had it's own effects that were different in helping ADHD. Modafinil was better at keeping me awake, and Selegiline is better at keeping me positive. Together, I think the effects would increase dopamine and norepinephrine enough in the synapse to really tackle ADHD without any major side effects.

I could be dead wrong about the synergy, but I am unhappy with my current dosing scheme of 10mg of Selegiline so far. It's just not causing enough productive stress... neither did Modafinil at 200mg. Perhaps I should just go with a good GABA blocker at this point in the game. The only time I am productive is under stress. Atomoxetine and Concerta worked the best at making me stressed, but the side effects were too intense... just wanted to shoot myself.

yeah, she also wanted to add the atomoxetine or concerta to the mix. told her i would definitely abuse the concerta, she looked at me like there was no way that were possible, i spared her the explanation of online forums, and my novice understanding of the mechanics involved in the time release for concerta. aka, steady hands and razor blades. guess i should have mentioned im a recovering speed freak/boozehound with ADHD....cats out!
it doesn't seem like there is an abuse potential for selegiline,do you feel like you want to take more during the day or is it a one dose shot in the morning and thats it? obviously everyones different esp. addicts and non addicts, but either way, i have a feeling addictive drugs work pretty much the same way on 98% of the population which is why they are called addictive drugs.
i mean its not scheduled and available, though it seems around in mass. you have to order it ahead of time which is no big deal.
either way just trying to investigate. i feel alot of the adhd symptoms have leveled out with time and cessation of alcohol and other drugs but, still love that mental edge and selegilines always seemed very provocative. just like discussing it, and id like to be able to get it for 3 dollars for 30 pills vs. 50 dollars for 30....and risk customs etc.

When I first read about selegiline I fantasized about it being equivalent or similar to methylphenidate. Abuse was something I was worried about (fantasized about) when I got it but soon realized there was no abuse potential, for me personally at least. It didn't have the intense focusing effects of Ritalin first of all, and also increasing the dose just added side effects for me (increased blood pressure/body tempurature) and there was definitely no "high" associated with it.

Also, in this monkey study Selegiline was unable to show addiction potential. (see attached image)
uploads/monthly_10_2011/post-19630-0-22085900-1319924433_thumb.jpg

I did try it with adrafinil earlier this year, but didn't notice any specific synergy. That's most likely because I was taking too many other random supplements and noots at the same time, though.

For me occasional doses of selegiline work better for me. Daily use seems to have diminishing returns. But I've used it more as a cognitive sharpener before I give a lecture, rather than as a daily formula. It tends to keep me awake, or rather, even after taking it only in the morning I find myself waking up in the middle of the night and not being able to go back to sleep. But many stimulants and wellbutrin do that for me. For daily use I take 1 or 2 mgs sublingually. I'm a big fan of sublingual dosing as I feel a cognitive sharpening almost immediately, whereas swallowed I may or may not notice much. And I frequently take the non-sublingual pills or liquids sublingually. Taste like the devil though.

When I first read about selegiline I fantasized about it being equivalent or similar to methylphenidate. Abuse was something I was worried about (fantasized about) when I got it but soon realized there was no abuse potential, for me personally at least. It didn't have the intense focusing effects of Ritalin first of all, and also increasing the dose just added side effects for me (increased blood pressure/body tempurature) and there was definitely no "high" associated with it.

Also, in this monkey study Selegiline was unable to show addiction potential. (see attached image)
uploads/monthly_10_2011/post-19630-0-22085900-1319924433_thumb.jpg

I did try it with adrafinil earlier this year, but didn't notice any specific synergy. That's most likely because I was taking too many other random supplements and noots at the same time, though.

interesting, i have read some stuff about the metabolites L-isomers being essentially inactive in the CNS , which is why you can buy them in the grocery store in the vicks inhalers. No abuse potential is good, and intense focus can be bad for social activities, like actually going out to do something instead of sitting inside all day researching pharmaceuticals, as has been my day! you can get lost in these forums. its great... anyway.
im not looking for a high, i have been diagnosed with depression adhd, like i said, so i would be looking for something that would alleviate both symptoms to some degree while not being a ritalin zombie.
thanks for the link.

hm. thanks for the info. its good to know that oral/sublingual seems to act more as an antidepressant than a strong stimulant. I was reading in the forums that The EMSAM patch eliminates the metabolism of some or most (if not all?) of the selegiline into the l-m/amps... i had always assumed that the pro-sexual effects were mainly due to the effect of the amphetamine metabolites, but perhaps if there is a similar response in the EMSAM patch, then would it logically be related to MAO-B inhibition and extracellular dopamine levels? im also very interested in the libido enhancing effects, obviously, not that mine needs much more enhancement, but is this a very stark difference than say in your days off?

yeah, she also wanted to add the atomoxetine or concerta to the mix. told her i would definitely abuse the concerta, she looked at me like there was no way that were possible, i spared her the explanation of online forums, and my novice understanding of the mechanics involved in the time release for concerta. aka, steady hands and razor blades. guess i should have mentioned im a recovering speed freak/boozehound with ADHD....cats out!
it doesn't seem like there is an abuse potential for selegiline,do you feel like you want to take more during the day or is it a one dose shot in the morning and thats it? obviously everyones different esp. addicts and non addicts, but either way, i have a feeling addictive drugs work pretty much the same way on 98% of the population which is why they are called addictive drugs.
i mean its not scheduled and available, though it seems around in mass. you have to order it ahead of time which is no big deal.
either way just trying to investigate. i feel alot of the adhd symptoms have leveled out with time and cessation of alcohol and other drugs but, still love that mental edge and selegilines always seemed very provocative. just like discussing it, and id like to be able to get it for 3 dollars for 30 pills vs. 50 dollars for 30....and risk customs etc.

I definitely have patted myself on the back for asking for two 5mg pills per day. It does wear off in about 10-12 hours for me, so the re-dose is key to keeping up that dopamine effect. It definitely gives you a mental edge. Once the side effect of hyperactivity/hypomania wears off, you are like a whole new person in a better way. You are not robotic, just happier and more vigilant.

Though I do not feel a need to abuse the drug, I do often feel a need for caffeine. Caffeine seems to amplify the effects of the drug's euphoria better than re-dosing Selegiline. And the thing is, like I said before, a half of cup of coffee feels like two cups. Thus, the abuse potential is not on the drug itself but on drugs or foods that interact. This is why people have died on MAOi's. They think they are invincible and eat aged cheese, beef jerky, sausage, and coffee thinking it's going to be fine and end up having hypertensive crisis... now psychiatrists are scared to prescribe it.

Not to scare you, I have never heard reports of anyone dying on Selegiline, just on other MAOi's. Due to the active metabolites, the Selegiline's MAOi effects are enhanced already, and the effects of tyramine are barely noticeable in comparison to the main effects. I ate a ton of feta cheese, even a swiss beef sandwich and nothing remotely close to hypertension resulted. Likewise, drinking small amounts of coffee does not raise my blood pressure very much either.

As for ADHD, it has been weak. I am so disappointed so far. It does nothing noticeable for my major symptoms as of yet. It has only been two weeks, but I figured I'd see more benefits by now. Ability to switch tasks is SOO much better, but that is the only noticeable improvement. I still zone out when spoken to, lose concentration on important tasks, and lack motivation to start important tasks. Tea is a great supplement to tone those symptoms down, and if it weren't for that discovery, I would have already called up the psychiatrist for a sooner appointment.

When I first read about selegiline I fantasized about it being equivalent or similar to methylphenidate. Abuse was something I was worried about (fantasized about) when I got it but soon realized there was no abuse potential, for me personally at least. It didn't have the intense focusing effects of Ritalin first of all, and also increasing the dose just added side effects for me (increased blood pressure/body tempurature) and there was definitely no "high" associated with it.

Also, in this monkey study Selegiline was unable to show addiction potential. (see attached image)
uploads/monthly_10_2011/post-19630-0-22085900-1319924433_thumb.jpg

I did try it with adrafinil earlier this year, but didn't notice any specific synergy. That's most likely because I was taking too many other random supplements and noots at the same time, though.

How much Adrafinil?

hm. thanks for the info. its good to know that oral/sublingual seems to act more as an antidepressant than a strong stimulant. I was reading in the forums that The EMSAM patch eliminates the metabolism of some or most (if not all?) of the selegiline into the l-m/amps... i had always assumed that the pro-sexual effects were mainly due to the effect of the amphetamine metabolites, but perhaps if there is a similar response in the EMSAM patch, then would it logically be related to MAO-B inhibition and extracellular dopamine levels? im also very interested in the libido enhancing effects, obviously, not that mine needs much more enhancement, but is this a very stark difference than say in your days off?

Actually, I saw the ENSAM studies, and that is what convinced me to go for the capsules. It seems that the fast release stuff gets into your blood stream at higher concentrations and quickly breaks down into the metabolites. The metabolites cause most of the dopaminergic effects. L-methamphetamine, though not as strong as its entiomer, still increases dopaminergic firing rates equivalently even though its action as a re-uptake inhibitor and release agent is negligible, it seems to have other dopaminergic effects.

In addition, L-amphetamine is thought to be a 1/3 as effective as D-amphetamine, though longer lasting.

Thus, when I saw that the ENSAM patch limited the metabolites, I concluded that it was best not to take that form to treat my ADHD. I was much more interested in the metabolites than I was the MAO-B inhibition. The come down from the dosing of 5mg capsules occurs about 10-12 hours afterward, and interestingly, this is just under the half life for L-methamphetamine (13-15 hours for rats). I can say I'm pretty happy with my decision, because this come down means that the metabolites (or general metabolism) are indeed an important part of the main effects of Selegiline. Time releasing this effect would lessen the effect.

hm. thanks for the info. its good to know that oral/sublingual seems to act more as an antidepressant than a strong stimulant. I was reading in the forums that The EMSAM patch eliminates the metabolism of some or most (if not all?) of the selegiline into the l-m/amps... i had always assumed that the pro-sexual effects were mainly due to the effect of the amphetamine metabolites, but perhaps if there is a similar response in the EMSAM patch, then would it logically be related to MAO-B inhibition and extracellular dopamine levels? im also very interested in the libido enhancing effects, obviously, not that mine needs much more enhancement, but is this a very stark difference than say in your days off?

Actually, I saw the ENSAM studies, and that is what convinced me to go for the capsules. It seems that the fast release stuff gets into your blood stream at higher concentrations and quickly breaks down into the metabolites. The metabolites cause most of the dopaminergic effects. L-methamphetamine, though not as strong as its entiomer, still increases dopaminergic firing rates equivalently even though its action as a re-uptake inhibitor and release agent is negligible, it seems to have other dopaminergic effects.

In addition, L-amphetamine is thought to be a 1/3 as effective as D-amphetamine, though longer lasting.

Thus, when I saw that the ENSAM patch limited the metabolites, I concluded that it was best not to take that form to treat my ADHD. I was much more interested in the metabolites than I was the MAO-B inhibition. The come down from the dosing of 5mg capsules occurs about 10-12 hours afterward, and interestingly, this is just under the half life for L-methamphetamine (13-15 hours for rats). I can say I'm pretty happy with my decision, because this come down means that the metabolites (or general metabolism) are indeed an important part of the main effects of Selegiline. Time releasing this effect would lessen the effect.

Hey Deventhayer. I just bought some 5 mg jumex deprenyl. How do i start this? Do i take half first or just pop 5 mg in? Besides does it interact with any of the following items since i am taking them?

Choline (gpc, cdp, dmae)
Racetam
Uridine
b complex
l tyrosine
l theanine
fish oil

Perhaps easier would be to ask, what does it interact with AFAYK?

cheers

^ No interactions as far as I can tell although I'm unfamiliar with Uridine so I can't comment on that. You can safely start with 5mg (although this is greater than the life extension dose and more on the order of the motivational/nootropic dose) and even go as high as 10mg once you are comfortable with the effects. At 10mg and below you are selectively inhibiting MAO-B but be careful, anything higher than this and the selectivity goes away and you cross into "cheese effect" territory. If you don't know what I'm talking about you should probably start doing some more research.

Thanks for te tips. I have not tried full 5mg yet, just one split in 2 doses. I have also wellbutrin, buspar and stablon on its way. Gues what, just read u cant mix it with buspar or wellbutrin, smh. Oh and by the way, does jumes seligiline pills dissolve quickly? Just had one now on my tounge for less than a minute and it was like foam?

I took, 2.5 first day then kept it at 5 mg a day, so far its been three days. I have not noticed anything at all apart from sligt increase in aggresivness. Also my hands feel much colder, is tis a common effect from intas selegiline?

I think you'll need to give it a week or two before you can fully assess its effects. I haven't noticed cold hands but I have noticed a propensity to be short tempered and easily agitated at times.

Be careful with Deprenyl. While it is generally well tolerated it does have the ability to interact in an adverse way with many substances (especially if you exceed 10mg/day) and is a serious pharmaceutical. I've gone as high as 10mg/day but only did so for a few days. I tend to stick with 1-2 drops sublingually and feel this is more than adequate. Pay close attention to your body and be patient for results.

Wow a week or two? I thought u meant to feel it quicker. Yes i can be very impatient and sometimes just up te dose in desperation, but perhaps i need to be aware tat selegiline is a serious drug. I migt start putting the pill under my tounge as tey seem to disolve extremelly fast. How long do you have to wait before you take an anti deppressant if you hace taken selegiline for a week?

Devin mentioned Amineptine earlier in the thread I think. I happen to have a source but it is incredibly expensive which is too bad. The prices I have are:


11 capsules = 1 week = $10.00/cap = $110
21 capsules = 2 weeks = $8.81/cap = $185
45 capsules = 1 month = $6.33/cap = $285
90 capsules = 2 months = $5.94/cap = $535
135 capsules = 3 months = $5.74/cap = $775
270 capsules = 6 months = $5.50/cap = $1485

Stupid FDA...

Devin mentioned Amineptine earlier in the thread I think. I happen to have a source but it is incredibly expensive which is too bad. The prices I have are:


11 capsules = 1 week = $10.00/cap = $110
21 capsules = 2 weeks = $8.81/cap = $185
45 capsules = 1 month = $6.33/cap = $285
90 capsules = 2 months = $5.94/cap = $535
135 capsules = 3 months = $5.74/cap = $775
270 capsules = 6 months = $5.50/cap = $1485

Stupid FDA...

Indeed. I'll probably have to satisfy my curiosity at some point. As far as reuptake inhibitors are concerned, Amineptine sounds like something I would prefer over Bupropion or Methylphenidate.

Wow a week or two? I thought u meant to feel it quicker. Yes i can be very impatient and sometimes just up te dose in desperation, but perhaps i need to be aware tat selegiline is a serious drug. I migt start putting the pill under my tounge as tey seem to disolve extremelly fast. How long do you have to wait before you take an anti deppressant if you hace taken selegiline for a week?

Haha a week or two? Not at all. I noticed the effect within 30 to 45 minutes, sometimes sooner.

The effects definitely became smoother over a week or two, with its effects peaking at a week, and then smoothing out. The subtle benefits kick in about week two, then your brain starts to adapt to the drug, reaching a better homeostasis. That's how most antidepressants work, ADHD medications, too.

Hey Devinthayer. I just bought some 5 mg jumex deprenyl. How do i start this? Do i take half first or just pop 5 mg in? Besides does it interact with any of the following items since i am taking them?

Choline (gpc, cdp, dmae)
Racetam
Uridine
b complex
l tyrosine
l theanine
fish oil

Perhaps easier would be to ask, what does it interact with AFAYK?

cheers

Looks like you have been experimenting. There could be an interaction with choline supplementation, but most likely it will cause a synergy rather than an interaction. If you are experiencing irritability or aggression, that is from increase in dopamine and norepinephrine. I wouldn't consider that an interaction, but a main effect.

Hands colder is from an increase in circulation from an increase in adrenaline and norepinephrine. I get that, too, now that you mention it. Blood thinners make this effect worse for me. A warm face is also from this increase in circulation. If you've ever taken heat transfer, you'll know that convection heat transfer coefficient increases when flow increases. Thus, you lose more heat through your head and torso before it reaches your hands and feet. Warm face, cold hands.

Stablon is cool to take with Selegiline. The rest will cause an interaction, and unfortunately, you will have to wait a few days to a week in between. To make the best use of Selegiline with your regimen, you can take 1mg every other day sublingually (as to not upset the stomach enzymes). Get out the exacto knife, I guess. It will potentiate the effects of Welbutrin and may contradict the Buspar at 2.5mg and above.

I did try it with adrafinil earlier this year, but didn't notice any specific synergy. That's most likely because I was taking too many other random supplements and noots at the same time, though.

How much Adrafinil?

I've experimented with adrafinil four or five times in my life. I've taken up to 1500mg's at once before (5 pills). Made me feel like I was on the verge of going completely insane at that dose (psychotic break type worries, probably just anxiety though, who knows). But when I was on the deprenyl I would take anywhere from 300-900mgs per day in divided doses.

I did try it with adrafinil earlier this year, but didn't notice any specific synergy. That's most likely because I was taking too many other random supplements and noots at the same time, though.

How much Adrafinil?

I've experimented with adrafinil four or five times in my life. I've taken up to 1500mg's at once before (5 pills). Made me feel like I was on the verge of going completely insane at that dose (psychotic break type worries, probably just anxiety though, who knows). But when I was on the deprenyl I would take anywhere from 300-900mgs per day in divided doses.

Wow that is helpful. I was only thinking of taking 100mg to stay awake during the day. 300-900mg per day sounds a bit too high. It's close to 100% converted in vivo to Modafinil, correct?