9 replies to this topic

[sam7777]

Over the last 8 months I have taken a great deal of different herbs that affect the cholinergic system, perhaps upwards of 60 types of supplements.

I already had a substantial amount of prior cognitive and anxiety issues, and thanks to abusing caffeine and other herbal stimulants, pretty much have been uttlery stupid and mentally exhausted beyond the point of even being able to think faster than a turtle moves, for perhaps 3 months.

When I try to take anything that enhances choline, I get the major tension and headaches and uneasiness.

I need someway to upregulate and sensitize my body to acetylcholine to some degree. But, mainly besides just not taking supplements, I need to really reduce the cholinergic side effects. I cannot even drink green tea without getting very obvious cholinergic side effects.

Anyone have a take on this?

[adiosameobas]

i think you are barking up the wrong tree. for example, caffeine doesn't effect acetylcholine in the brain, or directly, it works by blocking adenosine receptors. aka it is an adenosine antagonist. it also is a vasodialator meaning it opens your blood vessels, thereby increasing bloodflow to the brain and other parts of the body.
it acts in a grand scheme also as a neuromodulator. directing the grand flow of traffic. helping to effect other neurotransmitters like dopamine as well, but not directly.
green tea also contains caffeine, though in a slightly different form than in coffee, but, conversely, it also contains L-theanine, which works as a caffeine antagonist, and has a relaxing effect, though there are small amounts (10-20mg depending on brand) in a cup of tea....
otherwise:
have you seen a doctor about said issues?
what cognitive issues have you had?
what supplements did you use?
how did you 'abuse' them?
what obvious side effects?

for starters.

[Lufega]

Quercetin can block some of the effects of Ach. At least in Ach induced diarrhea. Also, dopaminergic substances have an inverse relationship with ACh levels.

Inhibition of gastrointestinal release of acetylcholine by quercetin as a possible mode of action of Psidium guajava leaf extracts in the treatment of acute diarrhoeal disease.

Lutterodt GD.

Source

Department of Pharmacology, School of Medical Sciences, Universiti Sains Malaysia, Penang.

Abstract

The electrically stimulated guinea-pig ileum and spontaneously contracting guinea-pig ileum preparations were employed in studies on the effects of an alcoholic extract and two flavonoid compounds, quercetin and quercetin-3-arabinoside, extracted from the leaves of Psidium guajava. The extract showed a morphine-like inhibition of acetylcholine release in the coaxially stimulated ileum, together with an initial increase in muscular tone, followed by a gradual decrease. The morphine-like inhibition was found to be due to quercetin, starting at concentrations of 1.6 micrograms/ml. The glycoside did not show any such action at concentrations of up to 1.28 mg/ml. The extract inhibited spontaneous contractions in the unstimulated ileum with a concentration-response relationship.

[Lufega]

Seems like quercetin can do this all over the body...

http://www.ncbi.nlm....n acetylcholine

[sam7777]

I really have to respectfully disagree, and say that somehow downstream and indirectly caffeine is notorious for cholinergic side effects. Anyone who has ever worked 80 hours a week and jagged themselves to death with coffee has an idea of that feeling of utter drop dead fatigue and burnout.

have you seen a doctor about said issues?
what cognitive issues have you had?
what supplements did you use?
how did you 'abuse' them?
what obvious side effects?

I have seen a handful of doctors. They tried to sling sleeping pills and anti-acids at me. Not enjoying the allopathic community one bit.
I cannot focus, analyze, write, communicate, do rhetorical, logical, spatial, creative, highly complex intellectual academic tasks as I was once able to do... My mind is slow, I cannot sink my teeth into anything, the adhedonia is relentless and unforgiving, I loose my keys, I look for the wrong room in the wrong building, I can't find my car in a parking lot, I get lost in the woods easy as hell, concrete details and lists of information are impossible to remember- to sum it up, I feel like a complete idiot, but I was not in the past- I was a full blown artist/designer/engineer/scientist student. I have burnout,. my health is jacked majorly, systemic inflamation, impaired digestive enzyme production, screwy thyroid and adrenals, screwy immune system, unreliable nerves, train of thought is nearly non existant, do not appear to have candida.., probably have multiple heavy metal levels that are high,..

Obvious blatant cholinergic side effects - tension in side of head and neck, headache in temple and between eyes, "fire ant" feeling in the brain, nervousness, agitation, IBS attacks, endless gastrointestinal problems.

I would say that repeatedly mixing up to 15 stimulating herbs in a given day, drinking large amounts of caffeine, and staying up until 3 am each night for 3 months counts as abuse, especially when you know that you get "wired and amped up" by mixing certain combinations, particularly adaptogens

Schizandra and cordyceps are not to be fooled around with and used with wonton abandon as a stimulant. They will $^#$ you up. I think those two + yerba mate + bad sleeping habits almost induced full blown epilepsy in me.

[adiosameobas]

ok that's more of a description, and from what you describe i can see what you mean.
I work in a coffee shop, and work essentially from 5am til sometimes 7pm on espresso and said stimulating herbs and other chemicals, of pharmaceutical nature, and nootropics so i do empathize with you my friend. at the end of the day though, i end up sleeping and exercising, which i know not everyone has as much time to do but, it really is more effective than any drug or polydrug therapy.
it seems more to me like adrenal fatigue with somesort of Ach mechanistic 'screwiness'...which is a common side effect of overuse/abuse of stimulants/adaptogens as im sure you know. it may take your body some time to readjust, one thing i know as an anticholergenic that works fairly well, for gastro issues is bentyl (dicyclomine), it can also help you get some sleep and really quiet the mind/make you feel silly which is maybe what you need for a minute or two. i dont know. hopefully someone can offer some more insight.

[Lufega]

You can also try some anticholinergics found in nausea medication like dramamine. If you feel better on them, then you know Ach is a problem.

[adiosameobas]

good call, looks like im in need of some of that....whats it called again....ummm...oh yeah...sleep.

[StrikeOut]

Bumping this thread because I'm in the exact same position and i wanted to know if you found a solution op?

iv'e been searching the net trying to find a solution to mental/physical issues i've been having. Though process of elimination iv'e found its all been caused by supplements I've been messing with.

Basically I'm having all the same issues, like EXACTLY the same. i did all the same stupid shit, everything with abusing huge amounts of herbal supplements and stimulants. Taking stuff affecting acetylcholine and dopamine and staying up all hours of the night.

Im in a pretty bad way to the point were i can't function, i've seen doctors but so far they haven't really been much help.


I was just wondering if you could maybe help me out?


first off did you get through it eventually? if you did what did you do? what did you find worked?

is there anything i can take? or is it just something i have to wait out? like do the issues get better with time?

any advice would be great or even if you can just point me in the right direction.


also sorry about all the questions it's just I've been dealing with this for a little while now and as i said i can't really function at all while I'm like this and its scaring me a little.




Ben

[abelard lindsay]

When I had way to much ACH from taking Coluracetam I took Benadryl and it worked like a charm. Benadryl is an over the counter allergy medicine and anti-cholinergic. It's available at almost any drug store.