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Considering racetams, but which one?

racetam social communication motivation

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#1 nupi

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 06:52 PM


This must be a FAQ, but I have not really come across a good answer yet.

My current stack has become very good at mood control and has provided me with a very enjoyable, serene state of mind. While I am not working at the moment (so no obligations to anyone, really, will go back to bschool in a couple of days but literally zero potential to screw up anything anymore), I am recovering from heartbreak and I have to say it has done a splendid job at that. It however so far has failed to make me social or motivate me to go out - if anything, the serenity just makes me lazy, thinking why go out if you feel this good by yourself?

My current stack:
Morning, empty stomach
150mg Wellbutrin SR (GSK - the original stuff)
1g EPA, 0.5g DHA (NOW)
250mg CDP Choline (Jarrow)
0.5-1g ALCAR (Swanson)
NOW Adams Multi
225 to 450mg Sensoril/Ashwaghanda (Jarrow)
potentially another dose of ALCAR after lunch
Liberal amounts of caffeine from Espresso

Evening
225 to 450mg 20:1 Bacopa (Paradise Herbs)
400mg MG Citrate (NOW)
sometimes Theanine Serene (Source Naturals), sometime 3mg Melatonin

Now I am wondering if any of the Racetams could help me improve communication, sociability and maybe even motivation? If so, which one? I read that Ani is the most anxiolytic which could be good in my case as I definitely have a weird case of SA - it mostly revolves around strangers and being assertive enough (especially facing girls). I dont get panic attacks but it definitely also cant cold approach people.

Any thoughs and comments would greatly be appreciated...

#2 JChief

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 07:02 AM

To assist with assertiveness I would recommend sulbutiamine (900mg or so) before going out for the evening. It will increase your sociability, boost libido, and certainly improve communication by default. Articulation can be enhanced by supplementing with noopept and piracetam. And overall your confidence and attitude towards the opposite sex will certainly be helped by an increase in free testosterone. Look no further than tongkat ali sourced from Indonesia (Pasak Bumi).

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#3 jadamgo

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 10:32 PM

As much as I'd like to suggest behavioral methods that would work better than any drug, you asked specifically for racetams. So, pramiracetam. It'is the most stimulating of the common racetams.

You could also use the second phase of aniracetam's effects. Aniracetam itself is rather calming and anxiety-relieving. Its metabolites are stimulating. About 3 hours after taking a significant dose of aniracetam (500mg and up) you will be energized and pleasure-seeking. This is a good mindset for socializing. For maximum stimulating effects with minimum dependency risk, take aniracetam only once per day, 2-3 hours before you want to go socialize. Do not divide the dose.

#4 nupi

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 09:26 AM

jadamgo: While I agree that in an ideal world, CBT or a similar approach would be more desirable, from past experiences I am far from convinced that it would help plus I lack the time and flexibility to commit to regular sessions (quite aside the inherent difficulty of finding a good shrink). While I know that my fear is irrational (blindingly obvious), attacking the fear has not yielded much - not even being shitfaced or for that matter on benzos changes much at all and exposure therapy, well let's just say I cannot get myself to put me into the exposure (if I could, it would likely not be an issue).

So I am looking for another way - while I have shied away from strong dopaminergics and serotonergics (think Cocaine and MDMA) for fairly obvious reasons, the usual reports about their describe to some degree what I am after but I can do without the high if I can instead get a sustainable regime to get some of the benefits. As there have been quite a few reports of increased sociability/communication with the racetams, I figured that would be an obvious next avenue. For that matter, I guess I will give aniracetam a shot...

Jchief: Where can I get Sulbutiamine? As for the Tongkat Ali, while I am convinced that I have low testosterone I want to stay away from Testosterone boosting regimes without medical supervision. Sadly, the docs refuse to consider that as a problem to be fixed and truth to be told, it does not bother me aside of the lack in assertiveness that manifests itself in many situations, really. The rest of testosterone's effects I can gladly do without (I for my life fail to see why it should be desirable to boost libido to teenage levels, for one), so if I can fix this one point without messing with hormones, all the better.

#5 JChief

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 09:45 AM

jadamgo: While I agree that in an ideal world, CBT or a similar approach would be more desirable, from past experiences I am far from convinced that it would help plus I lack the time and flexibility to commit to regular sessions (quite aside the inherent difficulty of finding a good shrink). While I know that my fear is irrational (blindingly obvious), attacking the fear has not yielded much - not even being shitfaced or for that matter on benzos changes much at all and exposure therapy, well let's just say I cannot get myself to put me into the exposure (if I could, it would likely not be an issue).

So I am looking for another way - while I have shied away from strong dopaminergics and serotonergics (think Cocaine and MDMA) for fairly obvious reasons, the usual reports about their describe to some degree what I am after but I can do without the high if I can instead get a sustainable regime to get some of the benefits. As there have been quite a few reports of increased sociability/communication with the racetams, I figured that would be an obvious next avenue. For that matter, I guess I will give aniracetam a shot...

Jchief: Where can I get Sulbutiamine? As for the Tongkat Ali, while I am convinced that I have low testosterone I want to stay away from Testosterone boosting regimes without medical supervision. Sadly, the docs refuse to consider that as a problem to be fixed and truth to be told, it does not bother me aside of the lack in assertiveness that manifests itself in many situations, really. The rest of testosterone's effects I can gladly do without (I for my life fail to see why it should be desirable to boost libido to teenage levels, for one), so if I can fix this one point without messing with hormones, all the better.


Sulbutiamine can be had from a variety of places. I, personally, have purchased from NutraPlanet. It comes in powder form (usually with a 300mg scoop). I place 3 scoops into some sweet tea and chug it down. The taste is very chalky and bitter aka nasty. In the future I will be placing my orders from Cerebral Health where I currently buy my other nootropics and have been very pleased with the speed of delivery and effectiveness of the products. With regard to testosterone boosting it wouldn't be so significant that you'd have to worry about too much as it's not nearly as powerful as synthetic steroids or hormone precursors. It's an herbal supplement with literally no side effects other than possible irritable behavior at doses much higher than necessary. Eurycoma Longifolia is the "official" name for it. Apart from the testosterone-related effects, the antimalarial, antibacterial, antipyretic, antiulcer, antitumor, and cytotoxic properties are well documented. The best price I've found is here but you'll see they are out of stock until appx Nov 15. No surprise really. It's a very popular supplement in my circles.

You might also look into NADH. NADH stands for "nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NAD) + hydrogen (H)." This chemical occurs naturally in the body and plays a role in the chemical process that generates energy. People use NADH supplements as medicine. NADH is used for improving mental clarity, alertness, concentration, and memory; as well as for treating Alzheimer’s disease. Because of its role in energy production, NADH is also used for improving athletic endurance and treating chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS).

Or possibly DMAA. Per wiki: "Despite not being a catecholamine, methylhexanamine exhibits structural similarity to other monoamines such as phenethylamine and amphetamine, which may account for its similar mode of action to these compounds. The only structural difference between methylhexanamine and amphetamine is that methylhexanamine lacks the phenyl or benzene ring which is present in all phenethylamine derivatives, including all amphetamines, containing only 4 of the 6 carbons of the phenyl ring. The difference between geranamine and propylhexedrine is that is lacks two carbons that create a cyclohexyl ring in propylhexedrine and a methyl group on the amine group. Despite these differences, it has a similar mode of action, being a stimulant and having norepinephrinergic effects."

Edited by JChief, 11 November 2011 - 10:37 AM.


#6 nupi

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 09:54 AM

I am starting to think I need to find an open minded neurologist... A lot of the more interesting stuff actually also exists as RX medications (Sulbutiamine, Piracetam, Deprenyl, not sure about Aniracetam) which would ensure pharmaceutical quality AND insurance paying for it (I have ungodly expensive insurance that covers a lot of stuff, might as well benefit from it). If I go down that route, I might also try straight-up testosterone supplementation instead of messing around with herbs of questionable purity...

As for the DMAA, I could not find too much on that stuff. I would really rather avoid messing around with less well researched stuff, especially if its amine-group stimulants...


[1] I travel a lot for work, so in part it is due to the top notch international coverage.

#7 JChief

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 06:41 PM

I am starting to think I need to find an open minded neurologist... A lot of the more interesting stuff actually also exists as RX medications (Sulbutiamine, Piracetam, Deprenyl, not sure about Aniracetam) which would ensure pharmaceutical quality AND insurance paying for it (I have ungodly expensive insurance that covers a lot of stuff, might as well benefit from it). If I go down that route, I might also try straight-up testosterone supplementation instead of messing around with herbs of questionable purity...

As for the DMAA, I could not find too much on that stuff. I would really rather avoid messing around with less well researched stuff, especially if its amine-group stimulants...


[1] I travel a lot for work, so in part it is due to the top notch international coverage.


Testosterone therapy I would advise against. Either do so naturally or do so at more risk than the herb I recommended. I told you how to go about obtaining quality.

#8 sam7777

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Posted 13 November 2011 - 12:47 AM

Strongly Strongly Strongly advise against synthetic hormones period. Stick to HPA/HPTA axis modifying herbs and supplements.

Sex drive is mostly dopamine. I have phenominal 1200 nanograms per DL or whatever that measurement is of testosterone, but my SHBG levels are 50% over the max too so my free T is not as good as it could be. I have no sex drive per say, and I blame it all on my brain.

Longjack did not seem to cut it for me. But I think one time I noticed some "odd" results, like um increased etc etc . I just did not feel an increase in sex drive or desire, aside.

I say back off theanine and Relora/Serenene because they are too sedating. Ashwaganda can be very sedating to some. So can bacopa. But I say drop Ashwaganda as an experiment for time being, and double bacopa, but take the extra bacopa in the morning.

Yerba Mate + EGCG + Glucuronic Acid + N-acetyl-Tyrosine makes a very good social outing combo. I really prefer Yerba mate as my source of caffeine.

#9 JChief

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Posted 13 November 2011 - 08:20 AM

Strongly Strongly Strongly advise against synthetic hormones period. Stick to HPA/HPTA axis modifying herbs and supplements.

Sex drive is mostly dopamine. I have phenominal 1200 nanograms per DL or whatever that measurement is of testosterone, but my SHBG levels are 50% over the max too so my free T is not as good as it could be. I have no sex drive per say, and I blame it all on my brain.

Longjack did not seem to cut it for me. But I think one time I noticed some "odd" results, like um increased etc etc . I just did not feel an increase in sex drive or desire, aside.

I say back off theanine and Relora/Serenene because they are too sedating. Ashwaganda can be very sedating to some. So can bacopa. But I say drop Ashwaganda as an experiment for time being, and double bacopa, but take the extra bacopa in the morning.

Yerba Mate + EGCG + Glucuronic Acid + N-acetyl-Tyrosine makes a very good social outing combo. I really prefer Yerba mate as my source of caffeine.


Longjack probably didn't work because that's the crap US stuff that is not nearly as potent as Indonesia sourced Pasak Bumi Tongkat Ali 1:200 extract. Also potent versions of Nettle Root Extract would be a good choice. Although Nettle (Urtica dioica) has been utilized for hundreds of years to treat a variety of ailments, it is primarily of interest now because it has been discovered that it is able to increase free testosterone in the bloodstream, and 3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran is the substance in Nettle which primarily causes this effect. You can find a potent version (they have the CoA on the webpage) at Barlowes Herbal Elixirs. Which is the only version I recommend to increase free T. One capsule taken twice a day is the therapeutic dosage needed to optimally bind SHBG and increase free testosterone in someone of normal physical condition.

Edited by JChief, 13 November 2011 - 08:21 AM.


#10 nupi

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Posted 13 November 2011 - 01:44 PM

Theanine Serene (with or without Relora) is more of a situational thing than something I would want to take daily - I find it less sedating than Bacopa, but I generally end up taking the Bacopa in the evening so that may be confounding things. I have not really made up my mind whether I want to try and drop the Bacopa for a while to see whether that would increase libido (some claim Ashwaghanda boosts it a lot by itself, I certainly did not have any of that so far) because I have the suspicion it may be further lowering it.

There are two more avenues I can think of right now: for starters, I could try the SSRI route but it seems kinda getting out of the frying pan and into the fire - so one could (maybe) talk to girls but not enjoy it (OTOH I had a discussion with a friend last night, I have the sneaking suspicion that I do not enjoy sex nearly as much as most others - maybe that is a long term effect the Effexor I had 8 years ago or maybe it is just a general lack of endorphins)... The other one would be to go the Dopamine route and try MPH for a while - after all some people claim it does help sociability quite a bit.

Before I start messing with hormones I want to get blood work done, but looking at my schedule, that will probably have to wait until January.

#11 sam7777

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 12:54 AM

The best thing to do would be to cover all your bases, I cannot stress enough that most people have problems with serotonin and dopamine, all their hormones, memory, endorphins, oxytocin (sounds to me like this in particular for you). Put simply people are just a mess when they start having some of these commonly complained symptoms on these boards.

At least keep that in mind while you read around to find things that actually will affect those neurotransmitters, etc.

#12 nupi

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 08:30 AM

There is definitely something there. Dopamine, Serotonin and Oxytocin (I do have major issues trusting people, but almost invariably get vindicated in the sense that trusting people comes back to bite me down the road) in particular (likely also Testosterone but before I mess with that I want lab results). Thankfully, I have a good memory (albeit I suspect Wellbutrin has somewhat diminished my ability to do word recall but that's based on purely circumstantial evidence). I am targeting Dopamine and Serotonin but it so far eludes me how you would target Oxytocin effectively...

The current regime does a pretty decent job at controlling mood and baseline anxiety, but it also seems to have a negative impact on motivation. But maybe that's unavoidable, why do stuff if you feel good just the same -in many ways, I am a prototypical insecure overachiever, always moving the barrier further out and never content with what I have - discounting my achievements and pushing for the next thing to happen (well professionally anyway, socially not at all). Now it may have gone the other way... I guess I am looking for sustainable sociability (and perhaps motivation, but the professional part of my life I can steer through sheer will-power, the rest needs support) drug - prescription or not.

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#13 sam7777

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 04:17 AM

I am working on the oxytocin/mu/delta opioid angle. 5ht2a receptors were mentioned as a way of causing downstream oxytocin release. However, ancedotally, without even reading that paper, I KNOW that you cannot willy nilly mess around with opioid receptors and 5ht2a receptors without negative consequences.

Entheogens are good models for this intricate opioid/serotonin/noradrenergic/oxytocin/cortisol relation. Needless to say you cannot run around functional on a daily basis under the influence of an entheogen.

On a side note, I hate wellbutrin. I took it this morning and basically had a nuclear meltdown because of mixing it with CDP choline. Really just about had a panic attack/nervous break down to end all.





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