100 replies to this topic

[Brett Black]

That is part of what constitutes my social anxiety. I am really bad at talking generic stuff to people I barely now - I can bullshit for hours with people I know (and trust, although I do have a slight tendency to maybe trust people a little too much after a while and share opinions that some might think are bit too extreme). To be perfectly honest, usual small talk bores the hell out of me. Even in bschool, were small talk initially was "where are you from, what did you do, what do you plan on doing afterwards" (and thus relatively structured) I got fed up with it in short order...

Small talk bores the hell out of me too. But, I don't think that this is inherently a problem in itself, quite the opposite actually.

I think(at least in my case) it's a "symptom" of being an intelligent, passionate and driven human being who can see so many fascinating, new, better, valuable, novel, exciting, enlightening, pleasurable things I want to do, know, analyze, chase, experience, realize, achieve etc etc etc.......and in comparison most small-talk is meaningless worthless mundane bullshit.

Some random person telling me about their boring run-of-the-mill mundane life/family/kids/job/holiday/purchase/car/house/weather etc etc etc that is essentially no different to a billion other people - I don't give a shit. I don't want to waste my time and my mind on such bullshit. I don't go around telling random people about all the boring shit in my life either, and I don't feel any need to.

George Carlin made some similar observations:
George Carlin - People Are Boring

Edited by Brett Black, 22 April 2012 - 11:25 AM.

[Junk Master]

"Some random person telling me about their boring run-of-the-mill mundane life/family/kids/job/holiday/purchase/car/house/weather etc etc etc that is essentially no different to a billion other people - I don't give a shit. I don't want to waste my time and my mind on such bullshit. I don't go around telling random people about all the boring shit in my life either, and I don't feel any need need to."

The rub is "neurotypicals" don't give a shit about small talk either, it's the subtle social interaction and cues that accompany it. The discussion doesn't mean anything but the body language, cues, speaks volumes.

I think back now, after having a son with Asperger's and realize all these cues I missed myself because I DIDN'T THINK I WAS MISSING ANYTHING

This is why I have a huge bone to pick with the typical portrayals of Aspie's in mainstream media as being unable to distinguish mad/happy faces. That might be true in some cases, but in many case of those on the Spectrum, looking at a photo and seeing an angry face is no problem. My son, who has actually been diagnosed as having Asperger's, while I have not, has no problem distinguishing emotions on faces-- he also does not believe he has any problem picking up social cues, but I can assure you he does. Just as I can assure you, if you are bored by small talk to the point of finding simple social interactions enervating, or exasperating, there's a significant chance you have spectrum-like personality/brain chemistry aspects.

Now what does that mean, exactly? I wish I were younger because I'd sure love to mess around with some of the new fMRI/Neuroimaging technology.

Remember 1-300 people qualify for an Asperger's diagnosis. How much higher is that in science related fields. How many more might not qualify for a clinical diagnosis, yet share many similar behaviors, patterns of thinking, similar neurotransmitter profiles?

I'm reminded of a stat I saw where 90 % of those who describe themselves as professional "poets" have suffered episodes of depression. 90%...

[Junk Master]

BTW Did anyone else see the E 60 piece on pro surfer with Asperger's Cay Marzo?



IMO Clay seems more high functioning autistic than Aspie to me, but his description of having a "cup" which runs over quickly with social interaction, while most people have a jug, was pretty fascinating.

AMAZING surfer too.

[TheFountain]

If you really want a full spectrum look at the personality types of introvert/extravert read 'psychological types' by carl jung. He is the master of this subject to this day.

[Junk Master]

Thanks for the Jung tip. I've read quite a bit of his, but not 'psychological types.' I will be interesting to read in light of some of the more modern theories/research.

[nupi]

Suppose I believe myself to be on the spectrum, any point in seeing a specialist? It does not seem like there is anything cure-like out there, anyhow...

As for the surfer, in my book, Asperger's (which in my view is generally not as extreme as Jerry/"Hands" on Boston Legal) is a variety of (high) functioning autism but maybe I am missing a distinction there?

[The Immortalist]

The part about introverts being more cortically aroused might make what I'm about to say seem wrong, but the higher dopamine sensitivity of extraverts suggests that introverts just need a little more of everyone's favorite chemical- Dopamine. I wouldn't recommend that you break out the crack pipe, but some Ritalin, Adderal etc. might help out here.

How do you get the notion that being more cortically aroused means one is not sensitive to dopamine? I thought that a previous poster said that because extroverts are less sensitive to dopamine they need more stimuli to get as much of it as introverts.

[Orajel]

jeez that explains me perfectly. I get "drained" from social interaction and have never been able to figure out why. No ideas here on how to fix it

[TheFountain]

If you are a natural introvert this might be a partial explanation, especially if you are forcing yourself either consciously or subconsciously into social interaction. There would be a corresponding misdirection of ones mental energy that may be more taxing than one realizes.

You see introverts work from the subjective plane when it comes to thought processes, and extraverts work from the objective plane. So any thought process on the part of the introvert that is not genuinely emanating from a subjective zone and is forced into an objective fight for power might cause severe energy drainage.

I believe it's the opposite for extraverts.

Edited by TheFountain, 25 April 2012 - 07:18 AM.

[niner]

The part about introverts being more cortically aroused might make what I'm about to say seem wrong, but the higher dopamine sensitivity of extraverts suggests that introverts just need a little more of everyone's favorite chemical- Dopamine. I wouldn't recommend that you break out the crack pipe, but some Ritalin, Adderal etc. might help out here.

How do you get the notion that being more cortically aroused means one is not sensitive to dopamine? I thought that a previous poster said that because extroverts are less sensitive to dopamine they need more stimuli to get as much of it as introverts.

It's not that cortical arousal means you aren't sensitive to dopamine, although in introverts it sounds like it correlates with a lower sensitivity. While extraverts may have lower levels of cortical arousal, they also have "higher sensitivity of the mesolimbic dopamine system to potentially rewarding stimuli". I take this to mean that they are effectively more (not less) sensitive to dopamine, or that they produce more dopamine given the same positive stimulus. In either event, it would seem that introverts would benefit from more dopamine. The counter-intuitive part is that an "over-stimulated" introvert might benefit from a stimulant by virtue of the dopamine release it would engender. Something like Wellbutrin, as umbillicaria reported, might be a better choice that an amphetamine in terms of the ratio of stimulation to dopamine level.

[Junk Master]

Good stuff above. I'm still trying to put together some thoughts about the purportedly high Uridine levels in Autistics due to improper methylation as alluded to in this thread--

http://www.longecity...r-syndrome-asd/

I'd love to hear more opinions on Uridine's supposed dopamine modulating effects.

Personally, I've noticed a huge difference in ease of social interaction after supplementing Uridine for a few months. Thing is, I've also been taking Piracetam which has a positive effect on my verbal fluency. I won't be giving up either anytime soon.

Thinking about adding some SAMe.

[YanaRay]

There are people like me who actually don't feel drained when interacting with others in a group, rather seriously overloaded to the point of feeling "spaced out", distant and confused. I've got mild Asperger's, but I don't really see myself as an introvert, I enjoy contact with others only not for long/not in groups as I quickly become out of tune with everyone and that causes a) discomfort, b) an urge to run away or hide, or just put a black bag over my head and use ear plugs not to see/hear anyone. Someone told me that Asperger's is a severe form of introversion, but I don't really think that's the case. I don't get drained, just hyper-electric and chaotic in my mind (not in my movements though as they appear sluggish and slightly uncoordinated when I'm in that state - I may look 'drained' then).

[abelard lindsay]

What I find is that in social interaction it's easy to run out of GABA. GABA is like a psychological shock absorber. It makes emotions more manageable and less taxing. This is why alcohol, a GABA agonist, is used for social interaction. There are healthier ways to modulate GABA though.

[nupi]

Good stuff above. I'm still trying to put together some thoughts about the purportedly high Uridine levels in Autistics due to improper methylation as alluded to in this thread--

http://www.longecity...r-syndrome-asd/

I'd love to hear more opinions on Uridine's supposed dopamine modulating effects.

Personally, I've noticed a huge difference in ease of social interaction after supplementing Uridine for a few months. Thing is, I've also been taking Piracetam which has a positive effect on my verbal fluency. I won't be giving up either anytime soon.

Thinking about adding some SAMe.

I guess I should give the UMP stack another try - I still have quite a bit of the Superior Nutraceuticals powder left. It's just not very convenient when traveling (I guess I could simply mix it with Whey and gulp it down, purportedly less effective than when used sublingually but eh what the heck :-). Piracetam I failed to get a prescription for so far...

Edited by nupi, 30 April 2012 - 06:11 PM.

[Orajel]

What I find is that in social interaction it's easy to run out of GABA. GABA is like a psychological shock absorber. It makes emotions more manageable and less taxing. This is why alcohol, a GABA agonist, is used for social interaction. There are healthier ways to modulate GABA though.

Alcohol is what we call a "dirty drug" because it doesn't just affect one neurotransmitter system. I think a lot of it has to do with alcohol increasing phenethylamine levels (about 4x). I've considered supplementing PEA, some doctors are proponents of it for depression and ADHD treatment. I guess that's why methamphetamine (PEA derivative) is so good for social interaction, depression and ADHD

Edited by Orajel, 01 May 2012 - 09:42 AM.

[livenprosper]

Does anyone have experience with ashwagandha, grifonia & rhodiola for inducing more "extrovert" qualities? I just saw a thread on reddit about a supplement stack called "Introvert No More" and it looks pretty legit in my eyes... Thoughts?

[Junk Master]

Personally, I think Piracetam plus Methylene Blue is a pretty good social stack.

[The Immortalist]

It's funny how everyone here thinks drugs will cure their symptoms. If an athlete can train his body to preform remarkably well in their sport of choice then it also stands to reason that if a person trains himself to become a more sociable person it will be much easier for that person to socialize. I'm not saying certain compounds are useless in this situation but I feel you won't become a more socially adjusted person by just taking in some drugs or herbs. It's like saying everyone who takes steroids but doesn't work out with weights is going to become just like Arnold Schwarzenegger.
That's just my 8 cents on this topic.

[umbillicaria]

I hear ya although I feel I've come to the end of the line of what I personally can accomplish through training and willpower. Been working on these issues very consciously for several years. Mindfulness meditation was the most important tool that allowed me to see my mind in increasing detail. Ive definitely come to a chemical or biophysical wall.

[umbillicaria]

The Welli and ALCAR have so dramatically lifted the brain fog I used to feel, even after I realized the need for solitude/recharge and allowed myself that space. I guess that success has inspired this prospecting.

[Junk Master]

I can think of many drugs that will elevate your athletic performance to a level you could NEVER achieve with all the training in the world. EPO for starters. Toss in some HGH, and a gram of Test per week.

Isn't that the whole point of this forum, that supplements exist which are truly beneficial to mental and physical performance? Supps that can help you achieve what you couldn't through sheer willpower and hard work?

[medievil]

It could be related to AVPD (a differend disorder then social anxiety) where reward related issues are at the root cause.

[nupi]

Does anyone have a good description for AVPD? The Wiki one seems a bit all over the place... I've also to this day not found a concise delineation between AVPD, ADD-PI and Autism spectrum disorders (I include Aspergers in that)...

[Major Legend]

I don't believe any of these introverted and extroverted arguments.

I went through a lot of my life switching from introvert and extrovert depending on my circumstances and the people around you. I can guarantee anyone who think of themselves introverted here would be nourished by social interaction if they were consistently surrounded by an environment and people that "click" and "engage" with them on the same wave length.

The bottom line is when you are "different" and more on the intellectual, objectification (however you spell that), context, imagination spectrum you are within a much smaller percentage of people, and the chances of meeting people who click with you (including cultural + social upbringing) becomes relatively rare.

My hypothesis is people close to the autistic spectrum, or perhaps intelligent people make "significant deviations" from what they see and observe, leading them to notice, feel, analyse and think more, the introversion of being "drained" only comes from the fact we cannot get "positive experiences" from interacting with most people meaning we become bored, tired from conversations outside our own context, as they do talking to us a well.

Don't forget the average IQ of people is only 100, also look at somebody like Steve Jobs or Bill Gates, both intellectuals but also able to deal aggressively in business. It justs shows you that its all in the mindset. If your experiences somehow forged you to have a "positive" mindset about meeting and interacting with people then you are unlikely to feel drained from interaction. On the contrary when I am with people I like I feel empowered and motivated by our new observations about the world, over time i've learned to enjoy myself around people who are on the social monkey side, but they don't necessarily return the same feeling.

Of course I believe some people are more socially awkward and talented in other areas, while some people are genuinely gifted in socializing, but bear in mind most people think in terms of plot as in A to B to C to D. People with aspergers for example remember and think in detail instead of plotlines. Worth to think about why you don't get along with most people.

Edited by Major Legend, 12 May 2012 - 05:45 PM.

[Major Legend]

So in terms of supplementation:

You can do basic stuff like tone down anxiety, increase speed of cognition, clarity, even presence.

But the real issue is deeper as I mentioned just now, there is simply no drug available yet that can turn an autistic person into a normal person, not by a worthwhile margin anyways though fish oil and carnosine i've read can help. If you are really depressed about being smarter than other people, than blasting your brain to oblivion with drugs can make you like everyone else.

Once I had brain damage in hospital, which I have recovered from and my ability to communicate and see the world "just as it is" was vastly improved just because my cognition and brain speed was heavily damage. The thing is when your brain is fast it actually is unable to listen to songs or people talking without zoning out on some higher thought. When my cognition was fucked I was talking and socialising much more than normal and people actually wanted to be friends with me and stuff, which doesn't happen normally. Interesting experience, horrifying really when you lose all the thoughts., and just become like everybody else.

How best to explain it? : It's like you look at something, you know there is something more to it, a slight feeling, but no matter how hard you try you can never figure it out. I think thats what most people are like.

[Junk Master]

I doubt anyone who has ever spent significant time with either Steve Jobs, or Bill Gates would call them extroverts, or socially adept. There has been much speculation that Gates has Asperger's, and Jobs is a close fit for borderline Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

I have never read any account that either enjoys spending time socializing, in fact, quite the opposite.

[Major Legend]

No but they wouldn't be able to achieve anything close to what they have done without interaction and meeting a lot of people (selling them stuff). I'm saying a negative mindset makes a person much more prone to being bored, tired and depressed of an normal interaction than a positive person.

On the other hand I think both Jobs and Gates thrived when they were with people they understood e.g. like Jobs with Wozniak, with Jonathan Ive and so forth, what I am saying is that people always enjoy people who can think and see on the same wave length, and the concept of "recharge" only came from the fact that cerebral people are much more rare than your average joe, so they are more likely to develop negative connotations about social interactions and therefore feel no reward from doing it.

I've met many intelligent people who are "introverted" who do fine as leaders, its all just a mind set. I use Jobs and Gates as examples is because these are very forward thinking people who are introverted, changed the world, became rich and etc. Both also had very positive enforcing backgrounds, having a put together family is very important for a positive mentality. Jobs was bullied when he was transferred to a poor school for a while , luckily he was transfered back to a middle class white school, these made huge differences in how his early beliefs in himself was formed.

Imagine if Jobs stayed in that school, and was constant victim of uneducated foreign people his ideas about himself would change drastically and he would become one of those "depressed introverts" .

[Orajel]

No but they wouldn't be able to achieve anything close to what they have done without interaction and meeting a lot of people (selling them stuff). I'm saying a negative mindset makes a person much more prone to being bored, tired and depressed of an normal interaction than a positive person.

On the other hand I think both Jobs and Gates thrived when they were with people they understood e.g. like Jobs with Wozniak, with Jonathan Ive and so forth, what I am saying is that people always enjoy people who can think and see on the same wave length, and the concept of "recharge" only came from the fact that cerebral people are much more rare than your average joe, so they are more likely to develop negative connotations about social interactions and therefore feel no reward from doing it.

I've met many intelligent people who are "introverted" who do fine as leaders, its all just a mind set. I use Jobs and Gates as examples is because these are very forward thinking people who are introverted, changed the world, became rich and etc. Both also had very positive enforcing backgrounds, having a put together family is very important for a positive mentality. Jobs was bullied when he was transferred to a poor school for a while , luckily he was transfered back to a middle class white school, these made huge differences in how his early beliefs in himself was formed.

Imagine if Jobs stayed in that school, and was constant victim of uneducated foreign people his ideas about himself would change drastically and he would become one of those "depressed introverts" .

I wouldn't be surprised if Bill Gates had asberger's syndrome, he's not the most socially adept individual according to relevent sources. Steve Jobs, from what I understand, was a pretty unpleasant individual, very dogmatic and demanding. Read his biography and tell me what you think of him as a person, and a leader. They were effective leaders because they had ideas that made billions, and people follow money. Nobody followed them because they were amazing leaders.


EDIT: I'm going to go ahead and say that Steve Jobs was a terrible human being. If you make him an example of a 'good introverted leader,' people will keep calling you on it. Check this out, it's a lot quicker than reading his biography:
http://www.digitalmu...ies/032411jobsa

Edited by Orajel, 13 May 2012 - 07:09 AM.

[Major Legend]

I never said they were good human beings in fact both of them used pretty aggressive and cruel methods in business to gain an advantage + they were at the right time and right place. Gates turned a leaf later by donating to charity while jobs never really became a nice person, but this proves that this introverted, smart, nice guy, can't deal with the real world image is something put on us its perfectly possible to be introverted and a complete ignorant ass hole.

Most of history would show you that good human being and playing nice does not lead to a successful leadership. In comparison to the leaders you see in say the banking industry and oil industries i'd say gates and jobs have relatively contributed to humanity much more. I read somewhere obama is very nervous before his every speech and plans them meticulously. I'm just saying that people should not be pushed this negative self image of introverts being "born wrong" and cannot find happiness, this idea is largely pushed by droves of common psychologists who think our fix is to learn to think like everybody else, or take antidepressants.

Also I wouldn't be surprised if a lot more people have aspergers like syndrome without ever realizing in their lives, and frankly from what i've seen i think its a good thing identifying with a mental disorder is a really negative thing itself, as there is no cure for it anyways so why bother worrying about it.

Also don't forget jobs and gates were not made in a day, they had good ideas but they worked very very hard, talked to many many people, probably encountering loads of people who disliked them from being "weird", good ideas are everywhere, but good ideas + hard work + right time right place is very rare. They gained followers because there was money, but also because they had vision and the work ethic to follow it.

I guess I would agree that the majority of management in most industries are dominated be socially adept people that contribute very little to the system, in fact the best management i've seen are from more introverted people as they are able too look at stuff more objectively, most of the problems arise from the fact that there is simply more of them and less of us. So we get pushed this idea that we are uncool, wrong and so forth at every corner, we get sold the idea that we need to talk, act, live like everybody else.

Have a little faith in introversion guys, would you really trade it away to being an extrovert? I bet most guys here want the advantages of both. Besides its not that simple anyways even if you became an extrovert suddenly you would lack the decades of experience a real extrovert would have, so you'd just be like an extroverted child in comparison.

[nupi]

As for whether I would want to change, I imagine life would be easier as an extrovert but the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. In a similar vein, I sometimes wonder if not being several standard deviations away from the mean IQ-wise would make for a happier life.

In line with what Major Legend has been arguing, I found Quiet:The Power of Introverts to be a quite interesting read: http://www.thepowero...about-the-book/