5 replies to this topic

[J-88]

Hi,

I have noticed (and also know) bodybuilders that use mucuna pruiens for long periods of time and some appear to be using it indefinitely (whether using it has any real noticeable benefit can be ignored for the purposes of this post though).

I know synthetic L-Dopa when used in Parkinson's Disease (PD) patients chronically can induce dyskinesia. My question is, what about when using the natural variant mucuna pruiens chronically daily (over years), lets say with the product my friend uses which is standardized to 15% L-Dopa (120mg L-Dopa per serving (once daily)).

Is l-dopa induced dyskinesia only applicable to people suffering from PD or could the use of L-dopa cause dyskinesia in people without PD? I guess I am more concerned with the above mucuna pruiens product rather than syntehtic L-Dopa inducing dyskinesia in non-PD humans, but I guess it can apply to both.

I just don't want my friend to be potentially doing himself any great harm but since I am not knowledgeable at all in this area he won't listen to my concerns / take them seriously.

Thanks,

James

[Ames]

I have a bottle of mucuna that I don't touch. I think that supplementing with any form of L-Dopa is unsafe, in terms of long term effect on the brain, unless one is attempting to ameliorate the symptoms of a disease that is precipitated by a lack of dopamine. Even then, results are generally limited. It's foolish for someone without a dopmaine deficiency to use L-Dopa, from a long term risk persepctive, as there is a credible hypothesis that could be mad for L-Dopa supplementation in healthy subjects, chronically and over a long period of time, eventually leading to lower endogenous dopamine production or receptor sensitivity. No offense, but I currently have no motivation to search pubmed for studies, in part becasue L-Dopa supplementation, over a long period of time, seems blatantly foolsih to me (however, this was after thinking about it for some time. i understand how one can be curious about this substance). Maybe someone else will have the motivation.

Besides, when I briefly experimented with it, the results weren't so spectacular so as to make supplementation worth the risk.

[Thorsten3]

Mucuna has been used for generations without any signs of toxicity. There have been no such cases. At all.

L-dopa on the other hand, has been shown to be neurotoxic in studies.

It's a weird one.

There is a possibility that within the Mucuna there are other compounds available that act as neuroprotectants. But then you must consider how it is taken. I have noticed a marked difference between taking it with milk and then taking it with green tea. I can take anything up to 2tbs with milk and it seems to improve wellbeing but with little actual stimulatory effects. With green tea I can only literally take a pinch of it and it has much stronger marked stimulatory effects. Because green tea contains a compound that allows l-dopa to cross the BBB easier it seems to enhance the effects considerably. But does this also result in higher toxicity? Or are the other compounds within mucuna neuroprotective to the stimulatory effects of l-dopa? Is it worth the risk?

I currently take mucuna with green tea but am currently considering whether this is something I want to do long term. I may just revert bck to taking mucuna with milk (so restricted amounts of l-dopa get across the BBB) but then does that come with restricted benefits too? I would presume that the increased HGH benefits are kind of related to the increase in dopamine levels. So, if you restrict how much l-dopa gets across are you restricting the HGH benefits?

[deeptrance]

I take 15% L-dopa mucuna as well, and I don't have a good reason to do so other than that tendency many of us have to try to increase dopamine, perhaps because of the natural tendency to want to "feel good" and the association of dopamine with the reward pathways in the brain.

Most L-dopa is converted to dopamine outside the brain if it isn't taken with a dopamine decarboxylase inhibitor such as carbidopa. The peripheral dopamine isn't what we're looking for; we're trying to boost it in the brain, not the rest of the body.

Mucuna has been used for generations without any signs of toxicity. There have been no such cases. At all.

L-dopa on the other hand, has been shown to be neurotoxic in studies.

From what I've read, the many other compounds in mucuna do have, as you suggest, modifying effects on the potential toxicity of l-dopa. Foolishly, many companies are selling mucuna extract that is standardized to as much as 99% l-dopa, which would probably be more neurotoxic and contain fewer of the other benefits of mucuna. I think even the 15% extract is probably a bit high. 5% extract is available and it's what I would choose if I were to buy it again, which I won't.

With green tea I can only literally take a pinch of it and it has much stronger marked stimulatory effects. Because green tea contains a compound that allows l-dopa to cross the BBB easier it seems to enhance the effects considerably.

It's known that COMT (another aid in making l-dopa effective) effects obtain from green tea, but I've never seen a study confirming the decarboxylase activity of any natural substance. What I have seen are people commenting that green tea extract (and catechins in general) have this property, but I've not seen a reference to any study other than one that was conducted in rats, and that study has been discounted by others and never replicated. Still a possibility, though. I'm intrigued by the major impact that green tea has on your personal experience! Would be interesting to know if it's COMT related or if it's really a decarb. inhibitor. I take a lot of catechins, not just green tea extract but also Acacia catechu (so named for the high concentration of catechins) and yet I still don't detect much difference with the mucuna. This might be due to my being on too many other supplements plus a couple psych meds. It's hard for me to detect the individual effects of most of the things I take.

Edited by deeptrance, 27 April 2012 - 05:17 PM.

[nito]

i have the l-dopa 15 % made by NOW bought from iherb. I don't notice much, even though it's 2 pills a day I take 5. After reading this post, it would be wise to cut down.

[BDon]

Isn't it good for lowering estrogen and prolactin levels stacked with Vit. B-6 (p-5-p) ?