31 replies to this topic

[bernard]

Ok, so we all know a lot of guys try to get their nootropic boost from abusing the acetylcholine system. But after a while those aCh receptors start to desensitize and downregulate. And even if you use galantamine to resensetize them you can still get only so much smart on the Piracetam system. My goal is to combine a few systems in order to reach the potential of the mythical NZT. I would be very grateful if you guys decide to join in with advice and such as I'm pretty sure you are more experienced with dosages than I am. Here it goes:

The Piracetam/aCh stack is:
Piracetam (I'm thinking 7g per day)
Choline (7g per day)
Alpha-GPC (1200mg per day)
Citicoline (600mg seperated in three doses)
Centrophenoxine (500mg per day)
DMAE (1000mg per day)
Acetyl-L-Carnitine (5000mg per day)
Galantamine (40mg per day) to keep aCh receptors intact

The Vitamin & Mineral stack is:
Vitamin C (as Ascorbic Acid) 1000 mg 1660%
Thiamine (as Thiamine HCl) (Vitamin B-1) 30 mg 2000%
Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2) 30 mg 1770%
Niacin (as Niacinamide) 150 mg 750%
Vitamin B-6 (as Pyridoxine HCl)* 30 mg 1500% *Instead of B-6 maybe Pyritinol@1000mg per day ?
Folic Acid 400 mcg 100%
Vitamin B-12 (as Cyanocobalamin) 50 mcg 830%
Biotin 300 mcg 100%
Pantothenic Acid (as d-Calcium Pantothenate) 150 mg 1500%
Magnesium (as Magnesium Oxide) 400 mg 100%
PABA 40 mg
Inositol 3500mg

Oils Stack:
CoQ10 400mg per day
Omega 3-6-9 6000mg per day
Lecithin 7200mg per day
DHA 600mg per day
Phosphatidyl Serine 600mg per day
Soy Isoflavones 900mg per day

AminoAcids Stack:
L-Glutamine 20,000 mg per day
L-Glutamic Acid 700mg per day
Arginine 3000 mg per day

Herbal & Mushrooms Stack:
Vinpocetine 30mg per day
Huperzine A 25 mcg per day
Gingko Biloba 180 mg per day
Cannabis Indica (Yes I live in Amsterdam) (aChE inhibitor, neurogenesis) Probably one strong hit before sleep
Rhodiola (I've heard that Rhodiola + Gingko Biloba causes cell toxicity, don't know if it's true) 1000mg per day
Rosemary ?mg
Sage ?mg
Gotu Kola 900mg
He Shou Wu 100,000 mg per day
Raw Lion's Mane Mushroom 2 slices with breakfast
Resveratrol + Antioxidant Blend to shield brain from free radicals
Bacopa Monnieri ? mg

The "That extra edge I'm missing" stack:
Cytisine 9 mg per day
Cerebrolysine ? mg per day
PDE4 inhibitor, maybe Luteolin ?
5-HT2a agonist (Psiolcin, LSD, DMT) for SWIM or Melatonine as Melatonine deacetylation results in the creation of 5-Methoxytryptamine (5-MT) which is a full 5-HT agonist

What do you think about this HUGE stack ? Thanks in advance.

[health_nutty]

How about forskolin to go with the Luteolin?

Okay now for the practical advice: Start by adding one (or two) things at a time. With all those ACh precursors and AChE inhibitors, you will likely get a huge headache. A little goes a long ways. Sometimes people react badly to a noot. If you throw them all together at once you won't know which one is causes the side effects, or the benefits for that matter.

[bernard]

Good advice thank you, I'll add forskolin. Too bad I can't see how to edit my first post.

[health_nutty]

Good advice thank you, I'll add forskolin. Too bad I can't see how to edit my first post.

Just to give you an idea: 1g of ALCAR with 1g of CDP-choline or Alpha-gpc will give me a wicked ACh headache (without racetams 500mg of CDP and 1g of ALCAR gave me a crazy headache). I think my head would explode if I took all the ACh precursors AND AChE inhibitors you have in your stack.

[bernard]

ALCAR is Acetyl-L-Carnitine right ?

And yes I'll make sure I taper up very slowly and add ingredients one by one. I'll start with just Choline, Inositol and a small dose of Piracetam.

Edited by Tatsumaru, 28 April 2012 - 10:29 PM.

[health_nutty]

Correct.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2

[bernard]

Should I add Methylene Blue to the stack ? What do you think ? I saw other guys on the forum use it.

[hardonfordrums]

ill be the first one to tell you that your are overdoing it. way too much. you should tone your doses way down and be constient with your daily intake... i mean shit count the grams of shit your taking in leads to well over a few ounces. your liver and kidneys are gonna hate you

[bernard]

I know man, but nootropics are just so weak. I really want to design that extra edge, and while its true that a degree in neurochemistry and pharmacology is a must in order to create a real NZT I still believe a lot can be achieved with what is currently present on the market.
I am open to suggestions and if you are like - remove this, add that, I'll totally do it.
Thanks.

[hardonfordrums]

i would research more on all the things your taking first one at a time. Instant gratification is what we all want but it does not work like that and i can tell you thats just tooo much to be safe. a relevant/irrelevant experience of mine: for a month straight (during a nutritional loading phase of my lifting) i took bovine collagen(3 tsp), bcaas (1tsp), 1 serving of soy lecithin (1tsp) and piracetam (1g) 3 times a day, and i had to stop right after becuase i could feel the toll on my system just from dumping all those powders into my body so regularly (seeing that its all processed and wwhat not) what you list above is WAY more than ive ever taken volume wise and it could really screw you up if you take it regularly at those doses, ide say personally tone it down about %75 and see how it goes (after taking it regularly for a few weeks) with all the supps youd be taking you WILL achieve affects (not as fast as you might want) but affects none the less. your a little over 68 grams a day already of shit so.... yeah lol i stopped after the amino acid stack

[bernard]

Thanks man I appreciate the advice. I ll try it.

[hardonfordrums]

yeah dude to each his own. right now im taking (in mornings on empty stomach before my jog)

-800ish mg piracetam
-500mg ALCAR
-500mg DL-phenylalanine
-400-600mg phenylethylamine
-25ish mg of 5-htp
-1tsp spy lecithin (1.9g choline, 1g inositol, 2.6g linoleic acid)
-Concentrated cup of green tea (using loose leaf tea i take 1 cup water and blend with 1tsp green tea, add the above listen ingredients w/ some honey and chug)

im almost @ a week with this stack and i like how its going so far.

-might give you some more considerations (my stack is for moodlift/sharpness/fat metabolism)

[Cephalon]

Hey Tatsumaru
IMO there are a lot supps in your stack basically going the same route - which you were going to avoid.

Other's are pretty good choices though :-) especially the cannabis indica sound interesting - do you get that at iherb? ;-)
Honestly Cannabis has some very interesting properties and there currently is alot research prooving possible applications both in the field of life extension and cognitive enhancement. Though for the latter one should take the herb - as you suggest - end of the day. (just like bacopa). For the prior, Cannabis should be vaporized not smoked.

Basically you have a little ACh overkill in your stack as far as I can see - you have multiple choline sources / ACh boosters in there.

If you find nootropics to be too mild you may want to try
Noopept
Modafinil
Oxiracetam
All three give me an immediate and strong effect.

You shouldn't dose so high on choline - if it appears to be ineffective pick another route - free choline may do you more harm than good : risk for the cardiovascular system.

Edited by Cephalon, 14 May 2012 - 04:52 PM.

[bernard]

Thank you for the good advice. Can you tell me a bit more on what should I drop and maybe tune the dosages a little bit. Truth be told I just scavenged the net about some nootropics that I was able to find where I live. I do have Noopept and Modafinil here but I couldn't find Oxiracetam or Pramiracetam. Plus I don't feel comfortable taking two handfuls of pills every day. I'm ok with injections and stuff. I would feel great taking 2-3 pills, 2-3 supplement capsules, a tsp or two of Alcar and some injection. If I am to swallow all the stuff I've mentioned though, I'm pretty sure my liver and kidneys would hate me as another guy suggested before. Thanks in advance.

[AlexanderHamilton]

Ok, so we all know a lot of guys try to get their nootropic boost from abusing the acetylcholine system. But after a while those aCh receptors start to desensitize and downregulate.

Sorry to hijack your thread, but do we know that... really?

Is there any evidence for your statement that "ach receptors start to desensitize and downregulate" with constant use?

I had read almost the opposite.

Not challenging your statement, just looking for other opinions (and possibly links to further reading).

Thanks!

[bernard]

It's just what I've read on a dozen forums. It might as well be wrong. While I have no experience in neuroscience, I have been in scientific bodybuilding and amateur biochemistry for over 12 years. It is true that SOME receptors do up-regulate post-stimulation, but most of the receptors tend to do the opposite thing. As far as I can remember, heroin addicts suffer irreversible (or at least doctors say so) damage to their dopamine receptors (I'm guessing permanent down-regulation) which is what makes them physically dependent on the substance.

[Cephalon]

Hi Tatsumaru,

Here are some thoughts on your supps/ dosages.
Regarding injecting stuff I see you are toying with the idea ordering Cerebrolysine. Let me know when you do, I live in Germany at the Dutch border so maybe we can exchange experiances with vendors or place an order together ... I'm too excited about that stuff - and a bit scared as well ...
I was just about to order Piracetam for injection because I found it rather cheap, but then decided against it - it wouldn't have too many benefits I guess.

The Piracetam/aCh stack is:
Piracetam (I'm thinking 7g per day)
Choline (7g per day)
Alpha-GPC (1200mg per day)
Citicoline (600mg seperated in three doses)
Centrophenoxine (500mg per day)
DMAE (1000mg per day)
Acetyl-L-Carnitine (3000mg per day) (you may use more, though 5g are quite alot ...)
Galantamine (40mg per day) to keep aCh receptors intact

The Vitamin & Mineral stack is:
Vitamin C (as Ascorbic Acid) 1000 mg 1660%
Thiamine (as Thiamine HCl) (Vitamin B-1) 100%
Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2)
Niacin (as Niacinamide)
Vitamin B-6 (as Pyridoxine HCl)* *Instead of B-6 maybe Pyritinol@1000mg per day - or P5P !

You will most likely only need RDA amounts of most vitamins. Large amounts of B vitamins are linked to accelerated aging.

Folic Acid 400 mcg 100%
Vitamin B-12 (as Cyanocobalamin) 50 mcg 830%
Biotin 300 mcg 100%
Pantothenic Acid (as d-Calcium Pantothenate)
Magnesium (as Magnesium Oxide) 400 mg 100%
PABA 40 mg
Inositol 3500mg

Oils Stack:
CoQ10 400mg per day
Omega 3-6-9 6000mg per day
Lecithin 7200mg per day
DHA 600mg per day
Phosphatidyl Serine 600mg per day ( Can leave you pretty tired)
Soy Isoflavones 900mg per day

AminoAcids Stack:
L-Glutamine 20,000 mg per day (Probably ineffective)
L-Glutamic Acid 700mg per day
Arginine 3000 mg per day (Watch out for blood vessle damage - Arginine is a vasodilator, you better don't take this with Vinpocetine)

Herbal & Mushrooms Stack:
Vinpocetine 30mg per day
Huperzine A 25 mcg per day (be careful adding Choline supplements with AChEI's)
Gingko Biloba 180 mg per day (efficiency / safty unclear - search the boards for more info)
Cannabis Indica (Yes I live in Amsterdam) (aChE inhibitor, neurogenesis) Probably one strong hit before sleep Good one
Rhodiola (I've heard that Rhodiola + Gingko Biloba causes cell toxicity, don't know if it's true) 1000mg per day
Rosemary ?mg
Sage ?mg
Gotu Kola 900mg
He Shou Wu 100,000 mg per day
Raw Lion's Mane Mushroom 2 slices with breakfast (I'm under the impression that the mycel (roots) are the good part)
Resveratrol + Antioxidant Blend to shield brain from free radicals (Resveratrol is a good one, though oppinions differ. The antioxidant theory is questioned alot, though Resveratrol has other - also cognitiive - benefits)
Bacopa Monnieri ? 300 mg Extract

The "That extra edge I'm missing" stack:
Cytisine 9 mg per day
Cerebrolysine ? mg per day (good one - interested myself)
PDE4 inhibitor, maybe Luteolin ?
5-HT2a agonist (Psiolcin, LSD, DMT) for SWIM or Melatonine as Melatonine deacetylation results in the creation of 5-Methoxytryptamine (5-MT) which is a full 5-HT agonist (woulnd't touch that, but maybe I'm just to conservative --. Medieval will will have some good thoughts on that )

What do you think about this HUGE stack ? Thanks in advance.

[bernard]

Superior Nootropic Stack v.2.0 (Thanks to Cephalon and the other guys):

The Piracetam/aCh stack is:
Piracetam (I'm thinking 7g per day)
Citicoline (600mg seperated in three doses)
Acetyl-L-Carnitine (3g per day)
Galantamine (40mg per day) to keep aCh receptors intact
New question: Do you think there is enough choline here to go with the 7g of Piracetam ?

The Vitamin & Mineral stack is:
Vitamin C (as Ascorbic Acid) 1000 mg 1660%
Thiamine (as Thiamine HCl) (Vitamin B-1) 100%
Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2)
Niacin (as Niacinamide)
Vitamin B-6 (as Pyridoxine HCl)* *Instead of B-6 maybe Pyritinol@1000mg per day - or P5P !
Folic Acid 400 mcg 100%
Vitamin B-12 (as Cyanocobalamin) 50 mcg 830%
Biotin 300 mcg 100%
Pantothenic Acid (as d-Calcium Pantothenate)
Magnesium (as Magnesium Oxide) 400 mg 100%
PABA 40 mg
Inositol 3500mg

You will most likely only need RDA amounts of most vitamins. Large amounts of B vitamins are linked to accelerated aging.
New question: Why is it then, that most "Stress Plus" formulas feature supraphysiological amounts of B-complex vitamins ?


Oils Stack:
CoQ10 400mg per day
Omega 3-6-9 6000mg per day
Lecithin 7200mg per day
DHA 600mg per day
Phosphatidyl Serine 300-600mg per day
Soy Isoflavones 900mg per day

AminoAcids Stack:
L-Glutamine 20,000 mg per day Maybe useless but definitely not overall harmful.
L-Glutamic Acid 700mg per day
Arginine 3000 mg per day (Watch out for blood vessle damage - Arginine is a vasodilator, you better don't take this with Vinpocetine)
New Question: How do I choose between Arginine and Vinpocetine. I'm thinking Vinpocetine is easier because it's already included in huperzine + rhodiola formulations. But then if Arginine is much better I'll try another variation.

Herbal & Mushrooms Stack:
Huperzine A 25 mcg per day (be careful adding Choline supplements with AChEI's)
Cannabis Indica (Yes I live in Amsterdam) (aChE inhibitor, neurogenesis) Probably one strong hit before sleep.
I will get a Volcano Vaporizer for this one. Maybe one weak hit in the morning and one stronger hit before bed. Does a hit from a vaporizer work to enhance cognitive functions ?
Rhodiola 1000mg per day
Rosemary ? mg
Sage ? mg
Gotu Kola 900mg
He Shou Wu 100,000 mg per day
Raw Lion's Mane Mushroom 2 slices of Mycel & Caps with breakfast
Resveratrol + Antioxidant Blend to shield brain from free radicals (Resveratrol is a good one, though oppinions differ. The antioxidant theory is questioned alot, though Resveratrol has other - also cognitiive - benefits)
Bacopa Monnieri 300 mg Extract

The "That extra edge I'm missing" stack:
Cytisine 9 mg per day
Cerebrolysine ? mg per day
PDE4 inhibitor, maybe Luteolin ?
5-HT2a agonist (Psiolcin, LSD, DMT) for SWIM or Melatonine as Melatonine deacetylation results in the creation of 5-Methoxytryptamine (5-MT) which is a full 5-HT agonist Needs more debate.
New additions:
Noopept ?mg /ed
Modafinil ?mg /ed
Oxiracetam ?mg/ed

It would be great If I can get more feedback on individual substances as well as their combined result. Thank you very much for the interest in my topic and for the provided nfo.

Edited by Tatsumaru, 14 May 2012 - 08:13 PM.

[Cephalon]

Hi Tasu,

Actually you can take a little more choline.Though CDP Choline (Citicoline) is working realy good so you may be fine with your dose.
The best, as I figuered out is to take choline supps as needed: meaning if you experiance slight Racetams side effects you'll just take as much to alleviate the sides.
Common sides are head aches or light pressure. For me a single 250mg Choline pill takes away the uncomfortability.
Sure it might make sense to dose a bit higher, if that helps you get more out of your Racetam - best is to listen to your body closely.
You may need to add some more choline ... 600mg CDP Choline isn't taht much either. Some is Uridine as well.
Did you use CDP Choline yet? Did give you real good energy? First time I "was on" CDP Choline I thought they crossed labeld some RX stuff

On the other hand you still have the Lecithin which has Phosphatidyl Choline in it. Phosphatidylcholine is belived to be a favourable Choline source, so if you can get it pure for cheap (it's quite expensive) that would be premium! If you do not count calories, and closely watch you Lecithin before going rancid you will be fine!

Ok I noticed that most of that is subject to the discussion regarding Michael Rae's diet, so reading this will give you some ideas about the Choline discussion besides tons of other useful information: http://www.longecity...lement-regimen/ . Michael is very "clean" with diet and supplements, he won't recommend/ add anything to his diet, if he had not convinced himself after reading tons of studies, so he's like some others here at Longecity a very reliable source for dietary and supplemental inspirations

Regarding your other question - the matter has been somewhat subject to the exact thread I linked above. It's about possible risks associated with L-Arginine.
I'm not so much into this subject, so I can not give you alot input there, but I don't think that you will need to pick a single compound as long as you use both in moderation.
If I remember correctly the same safty concerns that were brought up on Vinpocetine on older discussions also apply for Ginko Biloba!
A search on longecity for "ginko" and "vinpocetine" will help you - I will check if I can come up with the threads.
On the other hand Ginko is sold in the EU (without prescription) so one may conclude that it's pretty save - I don't think it's that bad at all. Probably just not so efficient as other compounds.

Do you do resitance training? Are you using the Arginine as a "punp" supp?

Third question: The volcano is prety sweet Would love to get my hands on one of those some time. Storz and Bickel has a new device on the market with is called "plenty" if I remember correctly. It's a hand held device. Judging from youtube videos it does not appear to be as good quality - material wise, though.
I use the Arizer V - Tower and am very very happy with that one. It's a Canadian model, but you will be able to get it in Amsterdam for sure. I got mine in Germany for 160€ incl. shipping.
It does not have the bag option but comes with a wipe. You can have it with a bag, but that one costs a bit more. The advanced model comes with a remote controll!
The Arizer V- Tower is of very good quality. I don't think the high price for the Volcano is justified, given the Arizer model makes such a good impression and it costs less than half the V- Tower. I use the V- Tower prety regularly and it does it's job prety well
It's a complete different world compared to smoking. If you smoke, you'll probably miss the combustion, but you'll get over it prety quick I'm sure. (I just guess I do not smoke - I started supplementing cannabis with a vaporizer). Great is (ok for you probably obsolte, since you are in Amsterdam and there is no shortage of supply) that you can collect the "after vaped bud" and use it for cooking. This is not gross in any way!

To be complety honest, I do not feel any side effects the next day at all.
Sure, right after supplementing I won't be able to take any of my exams. I pause cannabis a couple weeks before taking exams just to make sure.
Though I do not feel smarter either But Cannabis is neuroprotective! Neurons will be covered in a thick slick of haze and conserved for future use.
(That's the science behind it)

[Cephalon]

Related Discussions about Vinpocetine

http://www.longecity...etine-research/
http://www.longecity...ot-recommended/

[uglybuddy6]

If you are worried about down regulation and desensitizing of the aCh receptors you could try adding a NMDA antagonists. NMDA antagonists have shown to protect the dopamine system from down regulating so it could help with aCh and because Huperzine A is a NMDA antagonist people who have it in there stack should be good. Magnesium should also work.

[bernard]

Good Ideas, Thanks a lot

[Cephalon]

Regarding wether a small hit from a vaporizer has nootropics benefits:

In my experience actually no - no acute benefits so far. But it makes me feel calmer and content the next days. Usually I would not use the vape in the morning - but yesterday there was an exemption: until pm I felt a little wasted and not up to studying, but then later in the day I took a L Tyrosine, Vitamin C and P5P stack and it had such great synergy with the cannabis afterglow - I studied longer and harder then on Modafinil. Pure motivation, no jitters and no distractions. Was great. Though I had such a good response yesterday I will stick to smoking in the evening if at all. Cannabis is somewhat contraindicated when being on a CR diet :-)

[bernard]

Why is it contraindicated with CR ? As far as I'm concerned it increases appetite in the post-trip period and lowers blood pressure. Might be involved in the secretion of ghrelin. I'm interested if it has any interaction with the thyroid and other glands. This is very important especially in the long-term.

I once studied while on weed, but I was studying something that was outrageously interesting to me and it sunk in quite well. Even though most would say your short-term memory fails during the high, sometimes it's quite the opposite.

I've went to work high on weed a few times and it wasn't the best experience. Not that it felt particularly bad but I kept having these "damn it, i hate my job" thoughts. And it's a total no-no before physical activity but I'm pretty sure all know that.

[Cephalon]

Hey Tatsumaru
I wasn't too serious about the contraindication- just refer to the munchies :-) as you say I believe cannabis can actually have a positive effect on CR if one can stay away from the high calorie foods. When smoking in the evening I would fall asleep just before thinking much about sweets :-)
Just read cannabis works by lowering cAMP levels - did anyone use Forskolin with cannabis? I wonder since Forskolin raises cAMP levels. Maybe this is a target to desperate some desired (subjective) from undesired (subjective) effects. For me cannabis would be the perfect supp if it wouldn't increase appetite and if it would jot impair short term memory when being intoxicated ( I do not notice any longterm impairments)

Edited by Cephalon, 19 May 2012 - 06:47 PM.

[bernard]

Not only did I not feel long-term memory impairments but I felt rather mentally refreshed after every single trip.
Lower cAMP is a definite problem when maintaining a low body fat percentage. I know many ways to increase cAMP though so I wouldn't really care. I've heard people saying that weed might also cause gynecomastia but I think this is also a myth.

However I have no knowledge on how cAMP is related to mental clarity and I'm rather confident that it is.

[abelard lindsay]

The thing about cAMP is that raising it or lowering it causes different effects depending on what part of the body the cAMP is located in. All this talk about cAMP being positive or negative does not take this into account and I think is an over simplification. The main way to differentialy modulate cAMP is through modulation of PDE enzymes and there are at least 30 or so different subtypes. Some PDE enzymes hurt memory when they are inhibited, others help. Some when inhibited cure erectile disfunction (viagra). Others are anti-inflammatory (rofulimast). Raising or lowering cAMP broadly is likely to cause many different effects mixed together. Different effects such as improvement and degredation of memory in different parts of the brain may cancel each other out.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 22 September 2012 - 03:25 PM.

[bernard]

Yes that's a good point. Oversimplification is a ticket to hell when it comes to physiology.

[megatron]

Wow! that certainly is a heckload of chemicals! I'm just starting my first test of piracetam and choline soon.

[jroseland]

QUANTUMiND is quite good...

 

It produces the desirable state of relaxed-arousal with a balance of stimulating (Caffeine, Vitamin B12, ALCAR, Tyrosine, and Alpha-GPC for cognitive enhancement) and tranquilizing (L-Theanine, Ashwagandha, Panax Ginseng) ingredients.

I think that a Nootropic stack like this is a viable alternative to Modafinil, the popular wakefulness drug that biohackers use as a cognitive enhancer.

 

 

Watch: An Energizing Stack that Unleashes Relaxed-Arousal [QUANTUMiND Biohacker Review]