18 replies to this topic

[Andrey_81]

Hi. Not sure why this happens to me but when I sleep more, let's say 9-10 hours per day I'm completely depressed, without motivation and energy. On other hand, when I sleep less, 6-7 hours, I'm completely normal, full of energy, motivation and positive thinking.

What can be the reason? I always thought that it should be completely opposite (more sleep = more energy and motivation).

This is so obvious that I try to get up early during the weekend, just to maintain my usual sleep routine. If I oversleep, I'm totally different person. I don't drink coffee.

?

[onoorwinlike]

I believe it can be caused by lowered level of some neurotransmitters. If you get enough sleep during 7 hours, simply don't sleep more.

I suspect if you have something which permanently elevates your mood, you still have energy despite of longer sleep? General attitude to life can make a huge difference.

[7YearsStrong]

The more one sleeps, the more tired one is.

Cogito Ergo Sum.

[Thorsten3]

Some dude over at the Mind and Muscle forum said that lower amounts of sleep will enhance serotonin release with a study also posted, but I can't find it for the life of me. However a google search of '5HT release sleep deprivation' came up with a few hits including this:

http://journals.lww....ease_in.24.aspx

Serotonin release is a very positive thing for mood. It's nothing like re-uptake inhibition that flattens mood and robs you of your emotions.

I think first thing in the morning your hormones should also be raging. Cortisol will be high because that kicks you up the ass and gets you going (primitive man had to go out and get food). Testosterone should also be fairly good first thing in the morning. Just because cortisol is high doesn't mean testosterone will be low.

I would love to know why too much sleep can turn me into a potential suicide victim. It's probably to do with your circadian rythym being so messed up and out of sync. Obvioulsy, going to bed late and oversleeping until midday the next day isn't a natural thing for the body? Maybe man does need to get up early and go hunt for his food. Is this a survival thing? Perhaps we DO need to go to bed at a reasonable time and get up when the sun rises? Do we even need sleep in excess of 7hrs? It probably differs from person to person but 7hrs seems to be good for me. Still, it highlights the importance of maintaining a high quality of sleep architecture.

When you do oversleep maybe your body is still in melatonin mode which in itself is highly depressive. Hence the reason I never take timed release melatonin because the effects go into the next day and ruin my mood completely with the day becoming a total write off. Standard melatonin however leaves me waking up refreshed. It sedates me around bedtime but its half life must be short because I never notice any grogginess even in very high doses that I have experimented with in the past.

Or maybe you just don't need the extra sleep. If getting up early is painful, consider that you might be depressed or just hormonally out of whack.

Just my 2c.

Edited by Thorsten2, 14 July 2012 - 12:10 PM.

[Raptor87]

This is a common problem! Actually doc´s don´t even know if it that depression causes sleepdisturbances, or if it is sleepdisturbances that causes depression. But they go hand in hand. My bet is that something happens with the melatonin to serotonin conversion while affecting the prefrontal cortex and dopamine system.

[jadamgo]

This is very common. I have this exact problem. It appears that people whose depression is worsened by excessive sleep are more likely to be in the atypical-depression/seasonal-affective-disorder symptom cluster of excessive sleep, excessive appetite (or carb cravings), and severe muscle weakness/fatigue.

This type of depression is very likely to respond to bright light therapy used in the morning (and also early afternoon if needed). Here's a test for responsiveness to bright light therapy: Go outside in the sunlight every morning for one hour for a week. If you feel better by the end of the week (especially if you find it easier to wake up in the morning, even a little bit) then you are responding well to the bright light. If so, I'd suggest that you invest in a medical-grade lightbox for seasonal affective disorder -- even if your depression is not seasonal.

This is one of the easiest forms of depression to treat if you know to use light therapy and to restrict your sleep to 6-8 hours per night. You might not even need therapy or antidepressants. Or even if you do, they will work MUCH better if combined with the bright light and sleep restriction.

[cap3]

I have the exact same problem and always set my alarm so that I have no more than 7 hours of sleep. If I have 8 hours I am really depressed and lethargic all day. I take tyrosine to help with depression which works well for me but if I sleep more than 7 hours it does nothing the next day.
Perhaps it's just too much melatonin lowering serotonin?

[Mike C]

Moderation in all things-old wisdom applies once again.

[AgeVivo]

"Hours of sleep - too much sleep makes me depressed"

It could be the contrary: depression (or days that you foresee with difficulties) make you sleep more because you sleep until you feel you have some energy to face the difficulty you fear. As a result, it could seem to you that too much sleep makes you depressed. In that case the solution is to reorganize your life/what you have to do in the day so that you avoid the things you don't want to face.

For me, too much work makes me tired

Edited by AgeVivo, 14 October 2012 - 03:13 PM.

[cap3]

I have been looking into agomelatine recently and wonder what effect that would have with this problem. It is supposed to help with circadian rhythm disorders and works on melatonin but does that mean it would increase melatonin and make me more depressed?

I don't have a problem sleeping it's just that too much sleep makes me very depressed. I have tried the light therapy for a couple of weeks and didn't really notice any difference. It appears to work on serotonin more but I feel my problems are related to dopamine. Agomelatine does increase dopamine so I'm thinking it may be worth a try.

[cap3]

Some dude over at the Mind and Muscle forum said that lower amounts of sleep will enhance serotonin release with a study also posted, but I can't find it for the life of me. However a google search of '5HT release sleep deprivation' came up with a few hits including this:

http://journals.lww....ease_in.24.aspx

Serotonin release is a very positive thing for mood. It's nothing like re-uptake inhibition that flattens mood and robs you of your emotions.

I think first thing in the morning your hormones should also be raging. Cortisol will be high because that kicks you up the ass and gets you going (primitive man had to go out and get food). Testosterone should also be fairly good first thing in the morning. Just because cortisol is high doesn't mean testosterone will be low.

I would love to know why too much sleep can turn me into a potential suicide victim. It's probably to do with your circadian rythym being so messed up and out of sync. Obvioulsy, going to bed late and oversleeping until midday the next day isn't a natural thing for the body? Maybe man does need to get up early and go hunt for his food. Is this a survival thing? Perhaps we DO need to go to bed at a reasonable time and get up when the sun rises? Do we even need sleep in excess of 7hrs? It probably differs from person to person but 7hrs seems to be good for me. Still, it highlights the importance of maintaining a high quality of sleep architecture.

When you do oversleep maybe your body is still in melatonin mode which in itself is highly depressive. Hence the reason I never take timed release melatonin because the effects go into the next day and ruin my mood completely with the day becoming a total write off. Standard melatonin however leaves me waking up refreshed. It sedates me around bedtime but its half life must be short because I never notice any grogginess even in very high doses that I have experimented with in the past.

Or maybe you just don't need the extra sleep. If getting up early is painful, consider that you might be depressed or just hormonally out of whack.

Just my 2c.

Does taking melatonin help with your depression?

[Thorsten3]

Does taking melatonin help with your depression?

Not really, no. Valdoxan (a melatonin agonist) depressed me during day time hours, despite its paradoxal benefits through 5HT2C anatagonism. The acute effects of melatonin are definitely pro-depressive for me (tryptophan taken at night, has the same effect. Trypto knocks me out cold though, more so than melatonin!).

Sublingual melatonin doesn't leave the same groggy, next day effects that I get from the timed release version, but it doesn't appear to have any beneficial effect on me at all anymore, either. It used to, though. I now just take 3g of glycine and some magnesium to help with sleep initiation. When the sublingual version of melatonin did work, I suppose it helped with getting to sleep so therefore you could argue I may of felt better the following day (providing I didn't oversleep ). It may of been placebo though, as with a lot of things.

Edited by Thorsten2, 29 December 2012 - 01:44 PM.

[evolvedhuman2012]

well before it was like this. on coffee, 10+, i got confused = bad day. limit to under 10, on coffee = positive. everyones got a different metabolism i guess.

[NeuroNootropic]

This is very common. I have this exact problem. It appears that people whose depression is worsened by excessive sleep are more likely to be in the atypical-depression/seasonal-affective-disorder symptom cluster of excessive sleep, excessive appetite (or carb cravings), and severe muscle weakness/fatigue.

This type of depression is very likely to respond to bright light therapy used in the morning (and also early afternoon if needed). Here's a test for responsiveness to bright light therapy: Go outside in the sunlight every morning for one hour for a week. If you feel better by the end of the week (especially if you find it easier to wake up in the morning, even a little bit) then you are responding well to the bright light. If so, I'd suggest that you invest in a medical-grade lightbox for seasonal affective disorder -- even if your depression is not seasonal.

This is one of the easiest forms of depression to treat if you know to use light therapy and to restrict your sleep to 6-8 hours per night. You might not even need therapy or antidepressants. Or even if you do, they will work MUCH better if combined with the bright light and sleep restriction.

What if you are very drowsy when you wake up? What can you do then? When an antidepressant works for me, it reduces my need of sleep from 10-12+ hours to 7-8 hours. But for whatever reason, tolerance builds up and I end up sleeping 10-12 hours once again.

[Redux]

I believe it's related in some with how sleep deprivation helps major depressive pacients.




Total sleep deprivation increases extracellular serotonin in the rat hippocampus.

Lopez-Rodriguez F, Wilson CL, Maidment NT, Poland RE, Engel J.
Source
Department of Psychiatry and Biobehavioral Sciences, UCLA School of Medicine, NPI C8-846, 740 Westwood Plaza, Los Angeles, CA 90095, USA. faustino@ucla.edu


Abstract


Sleep deprivation exerts antidepressant effects after only one night of deprivation, demonstrating that a rapid antidepressant response is possible. In this report we tested the hypothesis that total sleep deprivation induces an increase in extracellular serotonin (5-HT) levels in the hippocampus, a structure that has been proposed repeatedly to play a role in the pathophysiology of depression. Sleep deprivation was performed using the disk-over-water method. Extracellular levels of 5-HT were determined in 3 h periods with microdialysis and measured by high performance liquid chromatography coupled with electrochemical detection. Sleep deprivation induced an increase in 5-HT levels during the sleep deprivation day. During an additional sleep recovery day, 5-HT remained elevated even though rats displayed normal amounts of sleep. Stimulus control rats, which had been allowed to sleep, did not experience a significant increased in 5-HT levels, though they were exposed to a stressful situation similar to slee-deprived rats. These results are consistent with a role of 5-HT in the antidepressant effects of sleep deprivation.




Sleep deprivation stimulates serotonin release in the suprachiasmatic nucleus.

Grossman GH, Mistlberger RE, Antle MC, Ehlen JC, Glass JD.
Source
Department of Biological Sciences, Kent State University, OH 44242-0001, USA.

Abstract

Recent literature suggests that sleep deprivation has a general stimulatory effect on the central serotonergic system. Herein we report that in hamsters, sleep deprivation induced by gentle handling for 3 h under dim red light at midday stimulates serotonin release in the suprachiasmatic nuclei by as much as 171%. Basal levels of 5-HT release are re-established within 1 h after cessation of treatment. Sleep deprivation also evokes phase advances of the circadian activity rhythm averaging 2 h. When sleep deprivation is undertaken in bright light, serotonin release is stimulated, but phase-shifting is greatly inhibited. It is therefore proposed that if the phase-resetting response to sleep deprivation is mediated by increased serotonin release, light inhibits the phase-resetting effect by blocking the postsynaptic or other downstream actions of serotonin.




Distinct effects of sleep deprivation on binding to norepinephrine and serotonin transporters in rat brain.

Hipólide DC, Moreira KM, Barlow KB, Wilson AA, Nobrega JN, Tufik S.
Source
Department of Psychobiology, Universidade Federal de São Paulo, Brazil.

Abstract

There is evidence to suggest that the antidepressant activity of sleep deprivation may be due to an enhancement of serotonergic and/or noradrenergic neurotransmission in brain. In the present study we examined the possibility that such changes may occur at the level of the norepinephrine (NET) and serotonin (SERT) and transporters. Rats were deprived of sleep for 96 h using the modified multiple platform method and then sacrificed for autoradiographic assessments of NET and SERT binding throughout the brain. [3H]Nisoxetine binding to the NE transporter was generally decreased in 44 of 45 areas examined, with significant reductions occurring in the anterior cingulate cortex (-16%), endopiriform n. (-18%), anterior olfactory n. (-19%), glomerular layer of olfactory bulb (-18%), ventral pallidum (-14%), medial preoptic area (-16%), retrochiasmatic/arcuate hypothalamus (-18%), anteromedial thalamic n. (-15%), and rostral raphe (-17%). In contrast, SERT binding measured with [11C]DASB showed no clear directional trends in 61 brain areas examined, but was significantly reduced in subdivisions of the anterior olfactory nucleus (-22%) and substantia nigra (-18%). Thus, sleep deprivation induced widespread decreases in NET binding, and fewer and well-localized decreases in SERT binding. Significant down-regulation in one brain region, the anterior olfactory nucleus, was observed in the case of both transporters. These results suggest that mechanisms involved in the antidepressant action of sleep deprivation may involve generalized NET down-regulation as well as decreased SERT binding in specific areas. Insofar as these changes may be associated with increased levels of serotonin (5-HT) and norepinephrine (NE) in the synapse, they suggest that sleep deprivation may share some basic mechanisms of action with several current antidepressant medications.





Effect of sleep deprivation on dopamine receptor function in normal subjects

S. Lal, J. Thavundayil, N. P. V. Nair, P. Etienne, R. Rastogi, G. Schwartz, J. Pulman, H. Guyda

Summary

Twenty-four hours sleep deprivation significantly decreased the growth hormone response to the dopamine receptor agonist, apomorphine HCl, in five normal men (0.5 mg s.c.) and one woman (0.75 mg s.c.) but had no effect on basal or post-apomorphine prolactin concentrations. These results suggest that sleep deprivation decreases the sensitivity of certain central dopamine receptors. The relevance of this finding to the antidepressant effect of sleep deprivation is unclear.




http://www.scienceda...80819213033.htm

Edited by Redux, 04 April 2013 - 05:31 PM.

[jadamgo]

This is very common. I have this exact problem. It appears that people whose depression is worsened by excessive sleep are more likely to be in the atypical-depression/seasonal-affective-disorder symptom cluster of excessive sleep, excessive appetite (or carb cravings), and severe muscle weakness/fatigue.

This type of depression is very likely to respond to bright light therapy used in the morning (and also early afternoon if needed). Here's a test for responsiveness to bright light therapy: Go outside in the sunlight every morning for one hour for a week. If you feel better by the end of the week (especially if you find it easier to wake up in the morning, even a little bit) then you are responding well to the bright light. If so, I'd suggest that you invest in a medical-grade lightbox for seasonal affective disorder -- even if your depression is not seasonal.

This is one of the easiest forms of depression to treat if you know to use light therapy and to restrict your sleep to 6-8 hours per night. You might not even need therapy or antidepressants. Or even if you do, they will work MUCH better if combined with the bright light and sleep restriction.

What if you are very drowsy when you wake up? What can you do then? When an antidepressant works for me, it reduces my need of sleep from 10-12+ hours to 7-8 hours. But for whatever reason, tolerance builds up and I end up sleeping 10-12 hours once again.

Yeah, the above post is right, morning sleep deprivation does usually cause rapid decrease in depression symptoms. Especially for people on the atypical-depressive/seasonal-affective/delayed-sleep-phase spectrum.

Of course, you can't keep yourself sleep deprived for the rest of your life, so wakefulness therapy only works for 3-5 days. Fortunately, 3-5 days is about how long it takes for bright light therapy to begin working. So the recommended treatment protocol for anyone on the atypical/seasonal/circadian disorder spectrum is to wake yourself up early in the morning, after about 4-6 hours of sleep, and immediately do an hour of bright light therapy. For most people, this would mean waking up some time between 6 and 8 in the morning. This becomes your new wakeup time because by the end of the week, you'll find it MUCH easier to fall asleep earlier at night.

Depending on how long it takes your brain to readjust, it'll take anywhere from 2-6 weeks to start falling asleep easily at night, getting 7-8 hours of sleep, and waking up soon after sunrise. Your mood should have become normal by that point. If there's still significant depression at the 2 month mark, it would be time to consider evidence-based psychotherapy, because you mentioned that the antidepressants you've tried seem to cause significant tolerance issues. The only biological treatments that don't seem to ever cause tolerance are bright light therapy and ECT.

ECT, of course, is generally only given to outpatients as a last resort when even MAOI+TCA+Psychotherapy+Bright Light doesn't work.

[hippocampus]

Well, I found lessen effect from bright light therapy after some time, but I do feel depressed when it's raining outside Also, bright light still works for gently waking up in the morning after four years so it's a good investment (those lights are pretty expensive).

[Redux]

I also found out cures from when sleep out too much.

Racetams, seems to fix the impairment and depressed mood from this type of situation, particulary Piracetam seems to be superior (tried Aniceratam and Noopept)


Another way to fix is with exercise, if I feel out of sync, a good 25mn run in treadmill fixes it.


Regular treadmill exercise prevents sleep deprivation-induced impairment of hippocampal-dependent memory and synaptic plasticity

ABSTRACT

Study Objectives: Evidence suggests that regular exercise can protect against learning and memory impairment in the presence of insults such as stroke and neurodegeneration. The purpose of this study was to determine the effect of regular exercise on hippocampus-dependent learning and memory impairment associated with sleep deprivation.

Experimental Design: We investigated the effects of 4 weeks of regular treadmill exercise on learning and memory impairment in 24 hour sleep-deprived rats. Sleep deprivation was accomplished using the columns-in-water model. We tested the effects of exercise and/or sleep deprivation using three approaches: the radial arm water maze (RAWM) task to test spatial learning and memory performance; electrophysiological recording in the Cornu Ammonis (CA1) and dentate gyrus (DG) areas of the hippocampus to measure synaptic plasticity; and western blot analysis to quantify the levels of key signaling molecules that are related to memory and synaptic plasticity.

Results: In the RAWM, regular exercise prevented the sleep deprivation-induced impairment of spatial learning, short-term memory, and early-phase long-term potentiation (E-LTP) in both CA1 and DG areas. In correlation, exercise prevented the sleep deprivation-associated decrease in basal levels of phosphorylated and total calcium/calmodulin-dependent protein kinase II (P/total-CaMKII) and brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF). High frequency stimulation (HFS), which increased the P-CaMKII and BDNF levels in normal animals, did not change these levels in sleep-deprived rats but did increase levels of the phosphatase calcineurin. In contrast, exercise increased BDNF and P-CaMKII levels in exercised/sleep-deprived rats, probably by preventing increases in calcineurin levels, thus maintaining appropriate P-CaMKII levels. Regular exercise also prevented the sleep deprivation-induced impairment of long-term memory and late-phase LTP. In correlation, exercise increased the basal levels of phosphorylated cAMP response element binding protein (P-CREB) and total-CREB as well as P/total- mitogen activated protein kinase (MAPK/ERK) in CA1 and DG areas of sleep-deprived rats. Also, exercise allowed multiple HFS to increase the levels of BDNF and P/total-CREB during L-LTP expression in sleep-deprived rats.

Conclusions: These findings suggest that sleep deprivation impairs both the CA1 and DG areas whereas exercise prevents this impairment. Regular exercise exerts a protective effect against sleep deprivation-induced impairment probably by inducing BDNF expression, which can positively modulate basal and/or stimulated levels of P-CaMKII, P-CREB, P-MAPK/ERK and calcineurin. As a result, exercise-induced BDNF could contribute to the restoration of hippocampus-dependent learning and memory as well as LTP in both CA1 and DG areas.

http://repositories....andle/10657/247

Edited by Redux, 05 April 2013 - 10:36 AM.

[jadamgo]

Nice find! I've always liked brief aerobic workouts to boost energy when I'm tired, but I didn't know there was any scientific investigation of it.