NSI-189
daouda
04 Jun 2013
Yeah sorry I actually thought that this may have been what you meant right after posting.
But still, I wouldnt be so excited about NSI-189 as a "nootropic" if I had a healthy brain and no brain damage that I hoped to heal/mitigate with the substance. PRL holds obvious nootrooic promises, but I feel that NSI-189 seems to be more what brain-damaged people are waiting for.
But still, I wouldnt be so excited about NSI-189 as a "nootropic" if I had a healthy brain and no brain damage that I hoped to heal/mitigate with the substance. PRL holds obvious nootrooic promises, but I feel that NSI-189 seems to be more what brain-damaged people are waiting for.
OpaqueMind
04 Jun 2013
No worries, tis beyond easy to misinterpret things on the internet. Indeed, damaged brains will benefit greatly from this, healthy brains not so much. Unluckily(/Luckily?!) I am in the first category so my hopes are incredibly high for this compound 
Rior
04 Jun 2013
Yeah sorry I actually thought that this may have been what you meant right after posting.
But still, I wouldnt be so excited about NSI-189 as a "nootropic" if I had a healthy brain and no brain damage that I hoped to heal/mitigate with the substance. PRL holds obvious nootrooic promises, but I feel that NSI-189 seems to be more what brain-damaged people are waiting for.
I'd certainly agree with this assessment. If there were going to be an "NZT-like" drug, it wouldn't be neurogenic so much as it would be an active molecule such as PRL. NSI-189 is more of a "build the infrastructure of the brain better "-type drug, rather than "fully utilize all the components of the brain"-type drug (NZT-like)
Metagene
04 Jun 2013
I like to think important questions will be answer regardless the outcome.
http://brain.oxfordj...1/2986.full.pdf
This could very well apply to my situation so I would be very pleased with the smallest improvement.
http://brain.oxfordj...1/2986.full.pdf
This could very well apply to my situation so I would be very pleased with the smallest improvement.
ExYank
04 Jun 2013
Hi
If a 2nd order gets put together, I would certainly like to get into it.
Cheers
If a 2nd order gets put together, I would certainly like to get into it.
Cheers
Amorphous
06 Jun 2013
Please also add me on the list of second buy. Also if there is somehow any vacancy in the first buy, please let me be on the list.
PWAIN
06 Jun 2013
But if and when a second buy get going, hopefully someone will look back thru the thread and pm those who expressed interest.
OpaqueMind
06 Jun 2013
Hmmmm yeah I guess so.. But unless we find another person who can represent a company in our dealings with manufacturers we won't be able to work with the most reputable suppliers. I have a feeling there's going to be a LOT of people wanting to get in on the next group buy for this. Logistical nightmare aside, it'll be awesome to get a metric shit-ton of material to work with. Hopefully we'd get a decent discount.
Sholrak
06 Jun 2013
Waiting to see the first experiences with this.
Will it be the hippocampus the missing piece of most mental disorders and illnesses?
Will it be the hippocampus the missing piece of most mental disorders and illnesses?
daouda
06 Jun 2013
It probably won't happen this way. When a 2nd group buy project is truely launched by someone which could be in weeks/months, I doubt he will bother looking back in the thread but rather ask ppl to mention their "candidature" in the thread. Also unless you are a longecity member (which you have to pay for) you have a very limited number of PMs per day. For instance I just tried PMing you about another group buy but couldnt as I had already reached my daily PM limit lol.But if and when a second buy get going, hopefully someone will look back thru the thread and pm those who expressed interest.
OpaqueMind
08 Jun 2013
According to my calender, if the previous ETA still stands, the synthesis should be complete in two days. Hopefully we are still on track! How are we going to sort out postage costs and such?
MetaMind
09 Jun 2013
intresting article about adult neurogenesis in the hippocampus:
http://www.kurzweila...uce-new-neurons
http://www.kurzweila...uce-new-neurons
They found that 1,400 new neurons in the dentate gyrus.area are added each day — 1.75% per year — during adulthood, and that this rate declines only modestly with age, suggesting that adult hippocampal neurogenesis may contribute to human brain function.
Patrick Sylvester
09 Jun 2013
20% hippocampal neurogenesis is like 11.5 years worth of neuronal-growth, with around ((365)1400)(11.5)= 5,876,500 new neurons according to that quote. i'm grossly oversimplifying (not a math major). how would or does a sudden (6 month? -- what was the study length again?) surge in growth impact memories and learned information over the lifetime prior to application? rather what are the mechanics and what can we expect from the memory over-writing reports of high-% neurogenesis.
what are the ramifications, will those that have invested in education loose what they had learned in favor of the appeal of a larger brain-mass; will they have to relearn everything? or can we study the theoretical mechanisms to mitigate the memory loss towards those arrays of memory we deem 'non-critical' such as undesired memories, generalized by 'age of memory' or 'speculated region'?
what are the ramifications, will those that have invested in education loose what they had learned in favor of the appeal of a larger brain-mass; will they have to relearn everything? or can we study the theoretical mechanisms to mitigate the memory loss towards those arrays of memory we deem 'non-critical' such as undesired memories, generalized by 'age of memory' or 'speculated region'?
Bion Alex Howard
10 Jun 2013
It's hard to say what hippocampal neurogenesis will do subjectively. It could give you more room in your working memory. It could expand your locational awareness (because of the presence of "place cells" in the hippocampus) or visuospatial processing. Taxi drivers experience massive hippocampal growth when they learn a city. Maybe the size of your hippocampus gives you the ability to store more places in your mental map?
Perhaps the best results with this compound, therefore, will be had by those who tie memories to locations. That's a common technique for super-memory champs: build a map in your head and place the objects to be memorized within that space. To recall, you imagine moving through that space and seeing the memorized objects as you go. TBH, we don't know enough to say anything for sure. But if you want to figure out what something does, giving people 20% more of it and seeing what happens seems like a logical step.
One interesting thought: rapid neurogenesis could trigger a new "critical period" of learning akin to the rapid progress of children in language acquisition. I say the users of this compound should try learning a language while they're on it. Or learn SOMETHING. Math could be a good target... It's possible that the maximum effect could be to COMBINE neurogenesis + hardcore learning. I recommend tim ferriss' books on accelerated learning for those interested.
We can't be overly rosy, though: this is a brand new chemical we're using on people's brains. It could do nothing. It probably *will* have dramatically different effects in different people (you might predict this by genomic analysis of the 3d structure of the drug's binding site...some mutants might not accomodate the drug). It could make you *lose* memory. It could give you schizophrenia, or mania, or some odd psychiatric condition we haven't run into yet. Pro-growth signals can be pro-cancer, so long-term monitoring of any growth factor mimic should watch for increased rates of cancer. It could downregulate normal production of neurotrophic factors leading to a rebound effect when you go off of it. Who knows?
Regardless of the outcome, we'll learn a ton about the nature of the brain from this sort of thing. Exciting times. I hope it exceeds expectations and we have a bunch of newfound uber-geniuses in this thread, personally. That'd be the most scientifically interesting result IMO :P
Perhaps the best results with this compound, therefore, will be had by those who tie memories to locations. That's a common technique for super-memory champs: build a map in your head and place the objects to be memorized within that space. To recall, you imagine moving through that space and seeing the memorized objects as you go. TBH, we don't know enough to say anything for sure. But if you want to figure out what something does, giving people 20% more of it and seeing what happens seems like a logical step.
One interesting thought: rapid neurogenesis could trigger a new "critical period" of learning akin to the rapid progress of children in language acquisition. I say the users of this compound should try learning a language while they're on it. Or learn SOMETHING. Math could be a good target... It's possible that the maximum effect could be to COMBINE neurogenesis + hardcore learning. I recommend tim ferriss' books on accelerated learning for those interested.
We can't be overly rosy, though: this is a brand new chemical we're using on people's brains. It could do nothing. It probably *will* have dramatically different effects in different people (you might predict this by genomic analysis of the 3d structure of the drug's binding site...some mutants might not accomodate the drug). It could make you *lose* memory. It could give you schizophrenia, or mania, or some odd psychiatric condition we haven't run into yet. Pro-growth signals can be pro-cancer, so long-term monitoring of any growth factor mimic should watch for increased rates of cancer. It could downregulate normal production of neurotrophic factors leading to a rebound effect when you go off of it. Who knows?
Regardless of the outcome, we'll learn a ton about the nature of the brain from this sort of thing. Exciting times. I hope it exceeds expectations and we have a bunch of newfound uber-geniuses in this thread, personally. That'd be the most scientifically interesting result IMO :P
Reformed-Redan
10 Jun 2013
Hypothetically, NSI-189 is a good option at modifying one's personality rather than doing something reckless like ingesting some illicit drug. Hypothetically, if one engages in some novel behavior during the nsi period, then that behavior could be incorporated into ones personality fairly quickly with the increase in hippocampal size. Just wondering.
Posthuman
10 Jun 2013
I was wondering,
Except all the learning stuff to do while on NSI-189 and after usage, could nootropics (the racetams, choline, picamilon...) be a good thing to use?
I first thought I should do a flush in my system before the NSI-189 trial to make it a clean trial and not get biased results, but then I thought maybe I should do all I can to enhance my brain's capabilities.
What's your thoughts about it?
And what about using vitamins? (Multivitamins, B complex vitamins 100, sulbutiamine...)
Edit: And what about PRL-8-53 combined, for those who will get it too?
Edited by Posthuman, 10 June 2013 - 02:11 AM.
Except all the learning stuff to do while on NSI-189 and after usage, could nootropics (the racetams, choline, picamilon...) be a good thing to use?
I first thought I should do a flush in my system before the NSI-189 trial to make it a clean trial and not get biased results, but then I thought maybe I should do all I can to enhance my brain's capabilities.
What's your thoughts about it?
And what about using vitamins? (Multivitamins, B complex vitamins 100, sulbutiamine...)
Edit: And what about PRL-8-53 combined, for those who will get it too?
Edited by Posthuman, 10 June 2013 - 02:11 AM.
Sholrak
10 Jun 2013
Hippocampus is shrinked in alcoholism, and almost every addiction, in depression, schizophrenia, and bipolar maybe. It looks to me like a tridimensional senses and memory "organule", unlike cerebral linear neuron-to-neuron conections, even other structures of the limbic system and brain stem. It should make you be more aware sensorialy and in space, as it is only shorter than corpus callosum. It seem to be partially wired with olfactory bulb.
I know what you mean with the hippocampus being like another room for working memory. I experienced that with Cerebrolysin too, wich is suppose to accelerate growth factors which is a consecuence of hippocampus grow. I remember being in in an great capacity of encoding information and more tridimensionally and completely. And NSI- 189 looks even better.
I'm so excited to hear experiences, the group buy should have it soon, right?
I know what you mean with the hippocampus being like another room for working memory. I experienced that with Cerebrolysin too, wich is suppose to accelerate growth factors which is a consecuence of hippocampus grow. I remember being in in an great capacity of encoding information and more tridimensionally and completely. And NSI- 189 looks even better.
I'm so excited to hear experiences, the group buy should have it soon, right?
Bion Alex Howard
10 Jun 2013
2 basic parts to this post: 1) supporting cell division and 2) the importance of hard data
1) If the drug triggers neurogenesis, those new cells will need new DNA. That synthesis requires amino acids and folate and b12 especially. In fact, patients with folate/b12 deficiencies develop a "macrocytic anemia" where they have small numbers of large red blood cells because they have an impairment of DNA synthesis.
Therefore I would recommend that anyone taking a drug that should increase neurogenesis should be sure to support the process of cell division during this dosing. If you tell cells to divide but then deprive them of the raw materials they need to do so, you'll reduce the amount of cell growth.
Key to this is to 1) have excellent + higher than normal nutritional intake (especially protein-30 grams each morning via whey isolate is a great start) 2) ensure that they are receiving adequate folate (400-800 micrograms per day, higher than the RDA because of the increased rate of dna synthesis) and b12 (RDA is 2.5 micrograms but you can go to like 10-25 to make sure you get enough, especially if you have GI problems that impair B12 absorption)
http://ods.od.nih.go...ate-QuickFacts/
http://ods.od.nih.go...B12-QuickFacts/
2) As for the prospect of going cold turkey on other supplements for this trial, that is an interesting discussion that I think the participants should start to consider. Do we want to see what this compound does to a person who's only taking a multivitamin? Or do we want to see what this compound does to a person on some of the typical nootropic "stacks?"
I say this: you guys will want to have a flat baseline and avoid changing other supplements alongside the NSI-189, because then you won't know whether any subjective changes are due to the NSI, or the other changes, or the combination of both.
You guys also need a way to QUANTIFY changes so you can rely on more than subjective opinion. This "study" is ALREADY totally biased because 1) everyone taking the drug is going to know that they're taking it (placebo effect) and 2) everyone taking the drug paid money for it, so they have a psychological reason to want it to work. Perhaps lumosity.com or dual-n back would be a good measurement tool? There is a large training/practice effect to those brain-training programs, though...so if you start lumosity and NSI-189 together, you'll see massive gains in the games that might be due more to just getting better at the games than it is due to actual neural enhancement.
IMO ideal would be if participants started a mental-performance measurement regime a few weeks to months prior to starting the drug. That's so you hit a training plateau *before* starting the drug and we don't confuse "learning how to play the game" with "successful neural enhancement"
Data is key to getting the most out of this, guys...everything else is biased opinion. It's important to record the thing you want to measure as well as any external factors that could influence it, like sleep. I say make a carefully considered spreadsheet for participants to use to record ALL drugs/supplements taken, doses taken, timing of doses, hours of sleep each night, performance on the n-back games, exercise, nutrition. The more anal you guys are about recordkeeping, the more data points you'll have to investigate once this is over.
With lots of data, you guys can investigate what it is that causes some people to respond and not others, or find out what factors influence the amount of response. You can also use it to adjust for confounding variables.
Edited by Bion Alex Howard, 10 June 2013 - 04:49 PM.
1) If the drug triggers neurogenesis, those new cells will need new DNA. That synthesis requires amino acids and folate and b12 especially. In fact, patients with folate/b12 deficiencies develop a "macrocytic anemia" where they have small numbers of large red blood cells because they have an impairment of DNA synthesis.
Therefore I would recommend that anyone taking a drug that should increase neurogenesis should be sure to support the process of cell division during this dosing. If you tell cells to divide but then deprive them of the raw materials they need to do so, you'll reduce the amount of cell growth.
Key to this is to 1) have excellent + higher than normal nutritional intake (especially protein-30 grams each morning via whey isolate is a great start) 2) ensure that they are receiving adequate folate (400-800 micrograms per day, higher than the RDA because of the increased rate of dna synthesis) and b12 (RDA is 2.5 micrograms but you can go to like 10-25 to make sure you get enough, especially if you have GI problems that impair B12 absorption)
http://ods.od.nih.go...ate-QuickFacts/
http://ods.od.nih.go...B12-QuickFacts/
2) As for the prospect of going cold turkey on other supplements for this trial, that is an interesting discussion that I think the participants should start to consider. Do we want to see what this compound does to a person who's only taking a multivitamin? Or do we want to see what this compound does to a person on some of the typical nootropic "stacks?"
I say this: you guys will want to have a flat baseline and avoid changing other supplements alongside the NSI-189, because then you won't know whether any subjective changes are due to the NSI, or the other changes, or the combination of both.
You guys also need a way to QUANTIFY changes so you can rely on more than subjective opinion. This "study" is ALREADY totally biased because 1) everyone taking the drug is going to know that they're taking it (placebo effect) and 2) everyone taking the drug paid money for it, so they have a psychological reason to want it to work. Perhaps lumosity.com or dual-n back would be a good measurement tool? There is a large training/practice effect to those brain-training programs, though...so if you start lumosity and NSI-189 together, you'll see massive gains in the games that might be due more to just getting better at the games than it is due to actual neural enhancement.
IMO ideal would be if participants started a mental-performance measurement regime a few weeks to months prior to starting the drug. That's so you hit a training plateau *before* starting the drug and we don't confuse "learning how to play the game" with "successful neural enhancement"
Data is key to getting the most out of this, guys...everything else is biased opinion. It's important to record the thing you want to measure as well as any external factors that could influence it, like sleep. I say make a carefully considered spreadsheet for participants to use to record ALL drugs/supplements taken, doses taken, timing of doses, hours of sleep each night, performance on the n-back games, exercise, nutrition. The more anal you guys are about recordkeeping, the more data points you'll have to investigate once this is over.
With lots of data, you guys can investigate what it is that causes some people to respond and not others, or find out what factors influence the amount of response. You can also use it to adjust for confounding variables.
Edited by Bion Alex Howard, 10 June 2013 - 04:49 PM.
MetaMind
10 Jun 2013
@Bion Alex Howard
Yes I was thinking the same considering log our Supplements and brain training behaviour to get some quantifible data...
I for one will do it... hopefully other NSI-users will do the same..
Speaking of Supplements... I heard that Blueberrys are very helpful strenghten neuron signals and overall brain function...
Yes I was thinking the same considering log our Supplements and brain training behaviour to get some quantifible data...
I for one will do it... hopefully other NSI-users will do the same..
Speaking of Supplements... I heard that Blueberrys are very helpful strenghten neuron signals and overall brain function...
megatron
11 Jun 2013
Considering the previous progress of the synthesis, the production of the drug has to be finished by now. Would hoping to receive it some time next week be realistic for the European participants?
A side note: For the drug-receivers not already having started sessions of dual-n-back, it's not worth making the game part of the testing (at least if you start taking the drug right away). Reaching your plateau takes at least a few weeks, but could also take a couple of months, much depending on how often you play and the duration of the sessions. On the other hand, I find it very, very hard to improve on the Cambridge-brain-sciences tests from the beginning. There's also many different tests for memory and reasoning, and it is very easy to track progress, if you create an account. For those reasons, I think the Cambridge tests should be the main indicator of progress for this trial, whereas DNB should be optional. This is because of the large possibility of biased information, due to people not really having reached their plateaus.
A side note: For the drug-receivers not already having started sessions of dual-n-back, it's not worth making the game part of the testing (at least if you start taking the drug right away). Reaching your plateau takes at least a few weeks, but could also take a couple of months, much depending on how often you play and the duration of the sessions. On the other hand, I find it very, very hard to improve on the Cambridge-brain-sciences tests from the beginning. There's also many different tests for memory and reasoning, and it is very easy to track progress, if you create an account. For those reasons, I think the Cambridge tests should be the main indicator of progress for this trial, whereas DNB should be optional. This is because of the large possibility of biased information, due to people not really having reached their plateaus.
Metagene
11 Jun 2013
A year ago I reached D5B %79 in a marathon session on a cocktail of modalert, deprenyl, redbull and some other herbs throw in for good measure. (Yeah not smart) Restarted last month sans pharmaceuticals and hit D5B %45 in a short play session before giving up again. I started CBS last month too and unfortunately haven't made it a part of my daily routine despite seeing improvements.
sunshinefrost
11 Jun 2013
I've tried it several times (maybe 30 times ) and can't seem to go beyond D3b approx 75%. I'm pretty shure this is my plateau. Almost d4b.
Psionic
11 Jun 2013
I've tried it several times (maybe 30 times ) and can't seem to go beyond D3b approx 75%. I'm pretty shure this is my plateau. Almost d4b.
I am going rather with mental math, multiplying two three-digits seems as such a good target.. DNB is cheatable and very individual. Maybe PASAT variation can be considerable.
There will be an attempt to make some decent WM game based on latest research in music field.. (right after NSI delivery
)
sunshinefrost
11 Jun 2013
I've tried it several times (maybe 30 times ) and can't seem to go beyond D3b approx 75%. I'm pretty shure this is my plateau. Almost d4b.
I am going rather with mental math, multiplying two three-digits seems as such a good target.. DNB is cheatable and very individual. Maybe PASAT variation can be considerable.
There will be an attempt to make some decent WM game based on latest research in music field.. (right after NSI delivery
Thats exactly what i was looking for. Those kind of mental manipulations are what i need to improve... They will probably become way easier when the hipocampus is augmented.
How would you say one can cheat at dnb ?
Edited by sunshinefrost, 11 June 2013 - 01:43 PM.
Metagene
11 Jun 2013
@Bion Alex Howard
Yes I was thinking the same considering log our Supplements and brain training behaviour to get some quantifible data...
I for one will do it... hopefully other NSI-users will do the same..
Speaking of Supplements... I heard that Blueberrys are very helpful strenghten neuron signals and overall brain function...
I am quite fond of this study:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/22569815/
I go through a 3lb bag of frozen Blueberries every week along with 2 Tbsp of raw Cacao powder a day.
