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NSI-189

nsi-189

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#661 hani

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 08:14 AM

From wikipedia:

A recent study has also revealed atrophy as a result of depression, but this can be stopped with anti-depressants even if they are not effective in relieving other symptoms

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Hippocampus

Doesn't that mean depression is bigger than just hippocampal atrophy?

#662 Megatrone

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 05:44 PM

President and CEO of NeuralStem: Richard Garr recently gave a talk at "World Stem Cells Regenerative Medicine Congress 2013" about there projects/treatment options.


If I wasn't interested enough in this compound from before, this totally made me. I learned something new as well; I didn't know that most of that 20% hippocampal volume growth was due to synaptogenesis. If we really get super memory from NSI-189, then the correlation between synapses and intelligence has basically been proven, and Dihexa should be the at the top of the list for ordering.

I can't wait for this compound to arrive. I'm trying to think about the chance of say 20% increase in hippocampal volume not doing anything. How can such vast growth of "brain cells" in one of the regions of the brain most linked with intelligence and memory, not result in any cognitive improvements? We should experience something, right?

Ahh, if this turns out to be successful I can become the computer programmer / scientist I've always wanted to be. I really hope the "era" of my pretty poor memory has come to an end, lol :P

Edited by Megatrone, 27 May 2013 - 05:48 PM.


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#663 MetaMind

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 06:11 PM

lets hope 30days will be enough to increase brain matter to a reasonable amount, otherwise we have to order again for 2 additional month. (3 month dosing will be next in Phase II clinicaltrials)

Edited by MetaMind, 27 May 2013 - 06:24 PM.


#664 OpaqueMind

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 06:31 PM

In adult mice, they found that increasing neurogenesis after memory formation was enough to bring about forgetting.

I thought this said it all. I know we don't have access to the actual study and this could be a loose interpretation of data but it's still somewhat disconcerting.


Right, sorry, I read that report on my phone then replied, I must have just remembered the last bit. My memory is pretty poor, hence my intense interest in this substance. If your interpretation is correct then we would forget old memories everytime we create new ones (since hippocampal neurogenesis continues as we age, albiet at a declining rate), which may well be the case. I have no idea how that would be measurable though.

#665 progress_

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 06:58 PM

President and CEO of NeuralStem: Richard Garr recently gave a talk at "World Stem Cells Regenerative Medicine Congress 2013" about there projects/treatment options.


If I wasn't interested enough in this compound from before, this totally made me. I learned something new as well; I didn't know that most of that 20% hippocampal volume growth was due to synaptogenesis. If we really get super memory from NSI-189, then the correlation between synapses and intelligence has basically been proven, and Dihexa should be the at the top of the list for ordering.

I can't wait for this compound to arrive. I'm trying to think about the chance of say 20% increase in hippocampal volume not doing anything. How can such vast growth of "brain cells" in one of the regions of the brain most linked with intelligence and memory, not result in any cognitive improvements? We should experience something, right?

Ahh, if this turns out to be successful I can become the computer programmer / scientist I've always wanted to be. I really hope the "era" of my pretty poor memory has come to an end, lol :P



With the great progress we are seeing in all of science you will reach your goal within a decade or two regardless of how the NSI story plays out 4 sure.

#666 sparkk51

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 08:20 PM

I am more worried that any volume gained will decrease after use.

#667 Rior

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 11:46 PM

I am more worried that any volume gained will decrease after use.



I don't believe there's any logical reason to believe this. This isn't like a 'racetam, where the effects only last so long as the molecule is in your body. NSI-189 will cause physical changes in the brain, which in basic theory should last. It's not like after NSI-189 is gone the brain is suddenly gonna be like "Oh well shit, I guess let's just induce mass apoptosis for fun!" ya know?

#668 Passion

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 02:02 AM

Here's one thing I'm concerned about:

Usually when our brains grow and form new synapses, they do so based on new experiences. The networks of synapses in our brain serve a purpose to produce some output based on some sort of sensory input.

A bigger brain might imply more stored experiences in some way. The synapses don't just connect randomly (afaik). Could it be possible that inducing mass synaptogenesis like this could just cause a bunch of noise and not have the end result we're looking for?

Or maybe the synapses will form around the everyday experiences we have during the therapy. Maybe there should be some sort of cognitive therapy to go along with the synaptogenesis to make sure the new synapses are meaningful.
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#669 sparkk51

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 02:30 AM

I am more worried that any volume gained will decrease after use.



I don't believe there's any logical reason to believe this. This isn't like a 'racetam, where the effects only last so long as the molecule is in your body. NSI-189 will cause physical changes in the brain, which in basic theory should last. It's not like after NSI-189 is gone the brain is suddenly gonna be like "Oh well shit, I guess let's just induce mass apoptosis for fun!" ya know?


Of course I didnt think the brain would induce the decrease. Due to homeostasis, I am thinking everyone has a certain amount of synapses that their body will maintain for the most part. Therefore, the rapid swelling of new synapses will not receive the nourishment required to survive but will still be affected by aging.


Here's one thing I'm concerned about:

Usually when our brains grow and form new synapses, they do so based on new experiences. The networks of synapses in our brain serve a purpose to produce some output based on some sort of sensory input.

A bigger brain might imply more stored experiences in some way. The synapses don't just connect randomly (afaik). Could it be possible that inducing mass synaptogenesis like this could just cause a bunch of noise and not have the end result we're looking for?

Or maybe the synapses will form around the everyday experiences we have during the therapy. Maybe there should be some sort of cognitive therapy to go along with the synaptogenesis to make sure the new synapses are meaningful.


Been thinking about this ever since synaptogenesis was brought up, I just didn't know how to say it. Thank you.

It's for this very reason that I am considering taking a smaller dosage than in the trial.

#670 Major Legend

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 03:52 AM

Here's one thing I'm concerned about:

Usually when our brains grow and form new synapses, they do so based on new experiences. The networks of synapses in our brain serve a purpose to produce some output based on some sort of sensory input.

A bigger brain might imply more stored experiences in some way. The synapses don't just connect randomly (afaik). Could it be possible that inducing mass synaptogenesis like this could just cause a bunch of noise and not have the end result we're looking for?

Or maybe the synapses will form around the everyday experiences we have during the therapy. Maybe there should be some sort of cognitive therapy to go along with the synaptogenesis to make sure the new synapses are meaningful.


If we go by the theory that memory is based upon the amount of stimulation we get, and if the growth of these neurones are still linked to input instead of just a random mass increase (kind of like cancer but with nerves), then it would mean that old memories will be replaced with new memories that have enough emotional stimulation - this means a variety of things, the foremost I can imagine/think of is that experiences on NSI will be greatly magnified but only those with enough stimulation, not really sure if the idea of redoing teenage years is appealing, seeing as it can end up both ways. A person can end up worst off, under this kind of tampering.

Perhaps artificially creating this emotional stimulus may be beneficial in making sure that growing mass isn't a jumble of random shit.

Or the increase in synaptogensis basically does nothing on a healthy brain ...this is highly likely too.

Edited by Major Legend, 28 May 2013 - 03:54 AM.


#671 stponky

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 05:04 AM

President and CEO of NeuralStem: Richard Garr recently gave a talk at "World Stem Cells Regenerative Medicine Congress 2013" about there projects/treatment options.


Whoa, that video blew my mind. Sounds like a very exciting company!

Edited by stponky, 28 May 2013 - 05:06 AM.


#672 Passion

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 05:12 AM

To counter my own point, it's also possible that the hippocampus is less of a center for memories and more of some "Center for Calculations" where having more room to work on things is beneficial. This would fit nicely with the the fact that the hippocampus is key for spatial memory/navigation and even working memory. Maybe random, massive growth is okay here if all we use it for is temporary memory of one type or another.

That article we saw says increased hippocampal neurogenesis is linked to forgetting but that doesn't necessarily mean the hippocampus is where we store information.

All of this is highly speculative though and almost everything I "know" about neurology comes from AI classes :laugh:

#673 stponky

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 06:07 AM

Damn, just catching up on this thread. I missed out on the ordering. I look forward to hearing everyone's experiences though. Hopefully there is some second batch in the future. You guys are going to experience 20% more of the world than me :)
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#674 MetaMind

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 04:06 PM

Another great talk by NeuralStem's CEO:Richard Garr explaining in great detail both ALS Spinal Cord treatment (NSI-566) and ongoing Major Depression Disorder trial (NSI-189)


Edited by MetaMind, 28 May 2013 - 04:07 PM.

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#675 OpaqueMind

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 04:46 PM

This may be premature but perhaps we should get a second group buy going soon? The prospect of fully rejuvenating my hippocampus is so damn tantalizing, and I don't know if a single month will be enough to do this. Normality, historicity, a solid sense of self...it's so close I can taste it!
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#676 FrankMH

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 06:02 PM

This may be premature but perhaps we should get a second group buy going soon? The prospect of fully rejuvenating my hippocampus is so damn tantalizing, and I don't know if a single month will be enough to do this. Normality, historicity, a solid sense of self...it's so close I can taste it!


I've been thinking the same. It's going to be a at least a month from when people receive the compound, plus however long it takes for reviews. I don't like to be impatient, but if there was an option of another group buy any time soon, I'd certainly be in. I'd rather take the gamble now than lose out later on for whatever reason.
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#677 MetaMind

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 06:52 PM

same for me here
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#678 hani

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 07:07 PM

Guys I don't want to rain on your parade, but I was wondering. As far as I've read, the hippocampus plays a major role in memory, so increase the size of it will increase learning and LTP. However, how significant does it affect things like depression, anxiety, bipolar etc... We know that the issue for most of these are larger than 1 factor and probably vary from one person to another and as I have mentioned a lot of antidepressants manage to increase the hippocampus yet the symptoms that come with depression remained.

Could it be that NSI-189 is influecing things other than hippocampus? They can monitor changes in the size of the hippocampus but they can't measure change in neurotransmitters or other things that play a role in depression and other mental issues.

Edited by hani, 29 May 2013 - 07:08 PM.


#679 allstargajo

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 07:25 PM

This may be premature but perhaps we should get a second group buy going soon? The prospect of fully rejuvenating my hippocampus is so damn tantalizing, and I don't know if a single month will be enough to do this. Normality, historicity, a solid sense of self...it's so close I can taste it!


I thought about the same but alas, no reply from the Lab currently creating the first batch. Even if they replied I would assume an expected availability date would be far from "soon" as they are probably still working on it. This is not all bad... it can also mean that future orders can be made quicker since all the groundbreaking work is done.

Anyway, if anyone else would like to make some enquiries, by all means, do it (and come back to tell us about it).
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#680 ScienceGuy

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 04:51 AM

...alas, no reply from the Lab currently creating the first batch.


Please kindly clarify what you mean by this :wacko:

#681 sparkk51

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 04:52 AM

I've tried searching but I can't figure out whether our craniums have extra space for growth. I know we talked about it early on in the thread, but no confirmations were made. If we don't have have any room, will our skull expand in response to a growing brain?

#682 DamnedOwl

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 07:44 AM

I've tried searching but I can't figure out whether our craniums have extra space for growth. I know we talked about it early on in the thread, but no confirmations were made. If we don't have have any room, will our skull expand in response to a growing brain?


I don't believe I've read whether the neurogenesis resulting from taking NSI-189 is expected to be taking place in any part of the brain other than the hippocampus, and even then in already under-sized hippocampi, so who knows whether a similar percentage rate of growth to those documented in the rodent study will be seen in otherwise normal-sized adult human hippocampi.

Also, since the hippocampus is but a small percentage of whole brain volume, a 30% growth wouldn't result in anything more than a couple of cubic cms anyway. And that's just going directly from the percentage increase of the rodent study. Would a couple of cubic cms growth of the hippocampus pose a problem? I am really in no position to say, and in any case be much happier myself if someone with a far greater understanding could say something a little more certain about all this.

Nevertheless, I am assuming that since these phase 1 trials have also included healthy individuals that Neuralstem at least must be confident that this won't pose any problems. One has to take at least some encouragement from that.

#683 allstargajo

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 07:56 AM

...alas, no reply from the Lab currently creating the first batch.


Please kindly clarify what you mean by this :wacko:


I meant that I've sent an email inquirying if they were available to make more but haven't got a reply yet. Still waiting (and hoping) :)

I've tried searching but I can't figure out whether our craniums have extra space for growth. I know we talked about it early on in the thread, but no confirmations were made. If we don't have have any room, will our skull expand in response to a growing brain?


From wikipedia article (details here):
"The capacity of an adult human cranial cavity is 1,200-1,700 cm3"
So there's some room for growth :)
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#684 izan82

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 09:01 AM

...alas, no reply from the Lab currently creating the first batch.


Please kindly clarify what you mean by this :wacko:

some people just can not handle groupbuys. ;)

#685 Q did it!

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 05:46 AM


Just want to let everyone here know that the PRL-8-53 has spots open again due to a "Minor but interesting setback. Silver lining in allowing more potentially interested participants." as it has been put. Check the link below to get caught up. Not trying to derail the thread or anything just posting this in groupbuy threads


http://www.longecity...930#entry591108


Cheers

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#686 ScienceGuy

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 07:50 AM

...alas, no reply from the Lab currently creating the first batch.

Please kindly clarify what you mean by this :wacko:


I meant that I've sent an email inquirying if they were available to make more but haven't got a reply yet. Still waiting (and hoping) :)


By all means organize and initiate a second group buy, but you should be aware that any reputable CUSTOM SYNTHESIS LAB will only deal with COMPANIES and not INDIVIDUALS ;)

Did you contact them via a COMPANY or yourself as an INDIVIDUAL? :)

Please kindly clarify what you mean by this :wacko:

some people just can not handle groupbuys. ;)


Please kindly clarify what you mean by this :wacko:

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Edited by ScienceGuy, 02 June 2013 - 07:52 AM.


#687 CatChelator

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 03:06 AM

Interested in seeing how everyone goes with this group buy...

#688 OpaqueMind

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 09:15 AM

According to my calender and the previous eta determined by the lab, NSI-189 should be ready in about a week! God dammmmmmmmn I'm so excited.

The dawn of a new nootropic era has begun...

#689 daouda

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 10:30 AM

The dawn of a new nootropic era has begun...

Some ppl really seem to be hoping for a NZT kind of effect... We should really try to keep our heads cold and not get carried away, for the moment there is no definitive evidence about the nootropic potential of this substance in healthy subjects... On the other hand I'm excited as hell for its potential to reverse some aspects of brain damage.

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#690 OpaqueMind

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 02:32 PM

The dawn of a new nootropic era has begun...

Some ppl really seem to be hoping for a NZT kind of effect... We should really try to keep our heads cold and not get carried away, for the moment there is no definitive evidence about the nootropic potential of this substance in healthy subjects... On the other hand I'm excited as hell for its potential to reverse some aspects of brain damage.


Ah you misunderstand me sir... I was not referring to this substance in particular but rather the accelerating rate at which substances with novel mechanisms are emerging, and the consequent group buys here which allow us try out these noots. Since the PRL group buy has been set back for the moment, this one will be the first to go through. That is what I meant by 'dawn of a new era'. No longer do we have to wait for the sluggishness of suppliers bound by market forces, now we can take the initiative and pave the way for the future of nootropics.





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