125 replies to this topic

[CasualObserver]

I've been reading a few articles at westonaprice, many of which make sense to me, such as the importance in getting the necessary amounts of vitamins & minerals, especially the fat soluble vitamins A, D, and K which play a vital role in bone and cardiovascular health, absorption & utilization of nutrients among many other things.

I have some knowledge (although a bit rusty) of biology, biochemistry, and physiology, and most of the science I've seen there seems legitimate. As I'm wary of everything I read these days however, I wanted to gauge the opinion of the members here.

[misterE]

I know that the Weston A. Price Foundation President Sally Fallon, recommends a high saturated-fat diet (animal-fat diet). She claims in this video (at 2:03) that: “nutrient dense foods like butter, egg-yolks, whole raw milk, full-fat cheese, and liver, are not villains, but foods that are the bases of good health… and should be included as much as possible in our diets”. This statement, when compared to the bulk of the scientific-literature is just false. Most studies show that high-fat diets and especially high-saturated-fat diets cause many of the diseases in western-societies, like heart disease, diabetes and cancers of the breast and prostate.

Edited by misterE, 04 September 2012 - 03:17 AM.

[TheFountain]

I know that the Weston A. Price Foundation President Sally Fallon, recommends a high saturated-fat diet (animal-fat diet). She claims in this video (at 2:03) that: “nutrient dense foods like butter, egg-yolks, whole raw milk, full-fat cheese, and liver, are not villains, but foods that are the bases of good health… and should be included as much as possible in our diets”. This statement, when compared to the bulk of the scientific-literature is just false. Most studies show that high-fat diets and especially high-saturated-fat diets cause many of the diseases in western-societies, like heart disease, diabetes and cancers of the breast and prostate.

I am not saying you are right or wrong. But can I just ask you why you think the majority of the users of this website disagree with your assessment and believe the exact opposite? Some of them even seem to present studies favoring high fat diets. I would like to know your feelings on this.

[misterE]

But can I just ask you why you think the majority of the users of this website disagree with your assessment and believe the exact opposite?

In all honesty, they don't want to give up their rich high-fat diets. It is much more appealing to hear that steak and eggs are good for you and whole-grains and potatoes are bad. But when you compare this assumption to what the bulk of the scientific-literature shows, it is the exact opposite. There must be thousands upon thousands of studies showing that diets high in meats and animal-fats have detrimental effects on health and longevity. But there are very few (if any) studies showing negative effects of diets high in whole-grains.

[TheFountain]

But can I just ask you why you think the majority of the users of this website disagree with your assessment and believe the exact opposite?

In all honesty, they don't want to give up their rich high-fat diets. It is much more appealing to hear that steak and eggs are good for you and whole-grains and potatoes are bad. But when you compare this assumption to what the bulk of the scientific-literature shows, it is the exact opposite. There must be thousands upon thousands of studies showing that diets high in meats and animal-fats have detrimental effects on health and longevity. But there are very few (if any) studies showing negative effects of diets high in whole-grains.

What of the studies they post claiming significant correlation between the diets they are espousing and longevity and health? What of their claims that the studies you speak of are poorly designed?

[misterE]

What of the studies they post claiming significant correlation between the diets they are espousing and longevity and health? What of their claims that the studies you speak of are poorly designed?

There might be a few studies showing beneficial effects of high-fat diets, but the majority of the studies are clear that high-fat diets induce western-diseases. Heart-disease is the number one killer of people in western-countries. The nutrient most associated with heart disease is saturated-fat. Atherosclerosis, has been shown to be reversed on a low-fat/starch-based diet (Ornish-diet, Esselstyn-diet). No researcher has ever shown that a high-fat diet can reverse atherosclerosis. So why would anyone in the world follow a high-fat diet? Especially in light of the scientific-literature condemning high-fat diets in the pathogenesis of heart-disease!

Proponents of diets high in saturated-fat like Sally Fallon are taking a huge risk considering the overwhelming scientific-data, epidemiological-evidence and lack of studies using high-fat in atherosclerosis reversal. Just look at what happened to Atkins.

Edited by misterE, 04 September 2012 - 04:58 AM.

[nupi]

Except that the epidemiological outcomes of the conventional wisdom high carb diets are abysmal...

[TheFountain]

What of the studies they post claiming significant correlation between the diets they are espousing and longevity and health? What of their claims that the studies you speak of are poorly designed?

There might be a few studies showing beneficial effects of high-fat diets, but the majority of the studies are clear that high-fat diets induce western-diseases. Heart-disease is the number one killer of people in western-countries. The nutrient most associated with heart disease is saturated-fat. Atherosclerosis, has been shown to be reversed on a low-fat/starch-based diet (Ornish-diet, Esselstyn-diet). No researcher has ever shown that a high-fat diet can reverse atherosclerosis. So why would anyone in the world follow a high-fat diet? Especially in light of the scientific-literature condemning high-fat diets in the pathogenesis of heart-disease!

Proponents of diets high in saturated-fat like Sally Fallon are taking a huge risk considering the overwhelming scientific-data, epidemiological-evidence and lack of studies using high-fat in atherosclerosis reversal. Just look at what happened to Atkins.

Can you link to the studies which condemn high fat diets and say that low fat diets are the best please? Right now I do moderate fat (because some fat is necessary) but I never thought going hyper-lipid was a good idea, even though I tried it on a trial basis. I noted that the higher fat intake caused me to store more abdominal fat. I'm not going to say that people here did not believe me, but they attributed it to "overfeeding" or kept asking if I ate too many carbs (which I didn't) at the time of the experiment. I always feel a little better when I include sweet potatoes, lentils and a lot of vegetables in the diet. But too many carbs causes urination issues. So I have to keep everything moderate.

Except that the epidemiological outcomes of the conventional wisdom high carb diets are abysmal...

Can you go into greater detail please? Where is the study saying this? And what makes the epidemiology for all these studies so bad?

[nupi]

Look around in the US (predominantly, but to some degree also in Europe), truly no study required....

[misterE]

Can you link to the studies which condemn high fat diets and say that low fat diets are the best please?

There are many studies showing the negative metabolic effects of high-fat diets, and many studies showing the benefits of a high-complex-carbohydrate diet. I will list two studies for each.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proc Nutr Soc. 2007 Feb;66(1):33-41.
High-fat diet, muscular lipotoxicity and insulin resistance.

Schrauwen P.

Abstract

A high dietary fat intake and low physical activity characterize the current Western lifestyle. Dietary fatty acids do not stimulate their own oxidation and a surplus of fat is stored in white adipose tissue, liver, heart and muscle. In these organs intracellular lipids serve as a rapidly-available energy source during, for example, physical activity. However, under conditions of elevated plasma fatty acid levels and high dietary fat intake, conditions implicated in the development of modern diseases such as obesity and type 2 diabetes mellitus, fat accumulation in liver and muscle (intramyocellular lipids; IMCL) is associated with the development of insulin resistance. Recent data suggest that IMCL are specifically harmful when combined with reduced mitochondrial function, both conditions that characterize type 2 diabetes. In the (pre)diabetic state reduced expression of the transcription factor PPARgamma co-activator-1alpha (PGC-1alpha), which is involved in mitochondrial biogenesis, has been suggested to underlie the reduced mitochondrial function. Importantly, the reduction in PGC-1alpha may be a result of low physical activity, consumption of high-fat diets and high plasma fatty acid levels. Mitochondrial function can also be impaired as a result of enhanced mitochondrial damage by reactive oxygen species. Fatty acids in the vicinity of mitochondria are particularly prone to lipid peroxidation. In turn, lipid peroxides can induce oxidative damage to mitochondrial RNA, DNA and proteins. The mitochondrial protein uncoupling protein 3, which is induced under high-fat conditions, may serve to protect mitochondria against lipid-induced oxidative damage, but is reduced in the prediabetic state. Thus, muscular lipotoxicity may impair mitochondrial function and may be central to insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes mellitus.

------------------------------------------------------------

Br J Nutr. 2000 Mar;83 Suppl 1:S91-6.
Dietary fat and insulin action in humans.

Vessby B.

Abstract

A high intake of fat may increase the risk of obesity. Obesity, especially abdominal obesity, is an important determinant of the risk of developing insulin resistance and non-insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus. It is suggested that a high proportion of fat in the diet is associated with impaired insulin sensitivity and an increased risk of developing diabetes, independent of obesity and body fat localization, and that this risk may be influenced by the type of fatty acids in the diet. Cross-sectional studies show significant relationships between the serum lipid fatty acid composition, which at least partly mirrors the quality of the fatty acids in the diet, and insulin sensitivity. Insulin resistance, and disorders characterized by insulin resistance, are associated with a specific fatty acid pattern of the serum lipids with increased proportions of palmitic (16:0) and palmitoleic acids (16:1 n-7) and reduced levels of linoleic acid (18:2 n-6). The metabolism of linoleic acid seems to be disturbed with increased proportions of dihomo-gamma linolenic acid (20:3 n-6) and a reduced activity of the delta 5 desaturase, while the activities of the delta 9 and delta 6 desaturases appear to be increased. The skeletal muscle is the main determinant of insulin sensitivity. Several studies have shown that the fatty acid composition of the phosholipids of the skeletal muscle cell membranes is closely related to insulin sensitivity. An increased saturation of the membrane fatty acids and a reduced activity of delta 5 desaturase have been associated with insulin resistance. There are several possible mechanisms which could explain this relationship. The fatty acid composition of the lipids in serum and muscle is influenced by diet, but also by the degree of physical activity, genetic disposition, and possibly fetal undernutrition. However, controlled dietary intervention studies in humans investigating the effects of different types of fatty acids on insulin sensitivity have so far been negative.


------------------------------------------------------

J Am Diet Assoc. 1976 Mar;68(3):216-23.

Dietary-atherosclerosis study on deceased persons. Relation of selected dietary components to raised coronary lesions.

Moore MC, Guzmán MA, Schilling PE.





Abstract
Dietary histories for 253 deceased New Orleans men were obtained retrospectively by interviewing respondents who had shared the household with these men for an average of eighteen years. Each respondent answered a detailed questionnaire designed to elicit the usual twenty-eight-day pattern of food intake of the subject during the terminal year of his life. This information was then used to calculate the average daily intake of selected dietary components. The cases included in the dietary studies were a sub-sample of cases in the International Atherosclerosis Project and were also studied for cigarette smoking habits. Analyses were performed to determine possible associations of nutrient intakes during the terminal year of life with the extent of raised lesion involvement in the three main coronary arteries measured at autopsy. These analyses indicated that higher intakes of protein of vegetal origin, total carbohydrate, starch, and crude fiber are associated with less atherosclerotic lesion involvement. For other components (total calories, total protein, animal protein, total fat, animal or vegetal fat, saturated or unsaturated fatty acids, total sugars, and cholesterol), there were no indications that the daily consumption was related to atherosclerotic lesions found at autopsy. When the diet-lesion relationships were examined on the basis of nutrient-to-calorie ratios, starch and vegetal protein were associated with less atherosclerotic lesion involvement in the coronaries, while animal protein and fat, regardless of source, were associated with greater atherosclerotic lesion involvement. These results suggest that, in general, the consumption of more foods of vegetal origin may be related to a lesser degree of atherosclerotic involvement.




----------------------------------------




Diabetes Care. 1983 May-Jun;6(3):268-73.

Long-term use of a high-complex-carbohydrate, high-fiber, low-fat diet and exercise in the treatment of NIDDM patients.

Barnard RJ, Massey MR, Cherny S,





Abstract
The purpose of this study was to assess the long-term effects of a high-complex-carbohydrate, high-fiber, low-fat diet and exercise on 69 NIDDM patients. During the initial 26-day program, fasting glucose was reduced from 179.5 +/- 10.6 to 133.5 +/- 4.0 mg/dl. This decrease in fasting glucose was achieved along with the discontinuation of oral hypoglycemic agents in 24 of 31 patients and of insulin in 13 of 18 patients; one patient was placed on insulin. Serum cholesterol and triglycerides were reduced by 25% and 27%, respectively. At 2-3 yr of follow-up, fasting glucose was not significantly different from the value observed at the end of the 26-day program. Compared with the end of the 26-day program, seven more patients were taking oral agents and four more were on insulin. Exercise and diet inventories obtained at follow-up indicated good compliance to the program and also indicated that the main difference between those patients who went back on medication at follow-up compared with those remaining off medication was the percent of calories derived from fat.

[misterE]

Look around in the US (predominantly, but to some degree also in Europe), truly no study required....

Westerners get their carbs (mainly) from sugar. Sugar (due to its fructose content) readily converts into saturated-fatty acids (like palmitic-acid), unlike starch [1]. If sugar (or fructose) is bad because it converts into fat… why then would fat be any good? The dietary-change that took place in America, which spurred all these diseases, was a high intake of both fat and sugar and a decrease in starch and fiber [2-3].




[1] Am J Clin Nutr. 1998 Apr;67(4):631-9. Human fatty acid synthesis is reduced after the substitution of dietary starch for sugar. Hudgins LC, Seidman CE, Diakun J.

[2] Am J Clin Nutr. 2010 May;91(5):1530S-1536S. Trends in food availability, 1909-2007. Barnard ND.

[3] Am J Clin Nutr. 1959 Jan-Feb;7(1):91-7. The American diet; past and present. Trulson MF.

[niner]

Westerners get their carbs (mainly) from sugar. Sugar (due to its fructose content) readily converts into saturated-fatty acids (like palmitic-acid), unlike starch [1]. If sugar (or fructose) is bad because it converts into fat… why then would fat be any good? The dietary-change that took place in America, which spurred all these diseases, was a high intake of both fat and sugar and a decrease in starch and fiber [2-3].

There is a big difference between fat that's synthesized and deposited in places you'd rather not have it, (like the liver) and fat that is eaten and metabolized as dietary fat. Dietary fat is associated with fat soluble vitamins, moderates the post-prandial glucose spike, and enhances satiety. Sucrose, on the other hand, has nothing to recommend it. It's just a toxin. You've made this "if sugar is bad and converts to fat, how could dietary fat be good" argument before; If you want to be taken seriously by scientists, you should probably drop this one. (Along with all those unnecessary hyphens...)

[TheFountain]

Look around in the US (predominantly, but to some degree also in Europe), truly no study required....

That's a loaded statement really. And is there any real evidence implicating carbs more than fats? It seems equally viable that white flour carbs and trans/hydrogenated fats contribute significantly.

[misterE]

There is a big difference between fat that's synthesized and deposited in places you'd rather not have it, (like the liver) and fat that is eaten and metabolized as dietary fat. Dietary fat is associated with fat soluble vitamins, moderates the post-prandial glucose spike, and enhances satiety.

Fat comes from mainly 2 sources. The first source is the fat you directly eat; the second is the fat you synthesize from fructose. When the adipose-tissue becomes overstuffed with triglycerides, fatty-acids can accumulate ectopically, like in the liver, kidneys, muscles, heart, pancreas, etc.

You don't need dietary-fat to absorb fat-soluble vitamins. These fat-soluble vitamins are absorbed into body-fat... not dietary-fat: although dietary-fat effortlessly becomes body-fat [1-3].

Also, dietary-fat doesn’t stimulate much satiety [4] [6]. This is most likely due to a lack of insulin and leptin secretion in response to dietary-fat. Plus dietary-fat inhibits insulin and leptin signaling in the brain [5], thus the body doesn’t register the calories consumed. Starch, a very powerful stimulus of insulin-secretion, is very satiating [6]. Potatoes are actually the most satiating food there is; over twice as satisfying as beef [7].




[1] Am J Clin Nutr. 2002 Oct;76(4):750-7. Adipose tissue biomarkers of fatty acid intake. Baylin A, Kabagambe EK, Siles X.

[2] Prog Lipid Res. 2008 Sep;47(5):348-80. Fatty acid composition of adipose tissue and blood in humans and its use as a biomarker of dietary intake. Hodson L, Skeaff CM, Fielding BA.

[3] J Nutr. 2001 Mar;131(3):828-33. Fatty acid composition of adipose tissue and serum lipids are valid biological markers of dairy fat intake in men. Wolk A, Furuheim M, Vessby B.

[4] Am J Med. 2002 Dec 30;113 Suppl 9B:41S-46S. Low-fat diets are preferred. Jéquier E, Bray GA.

[5] J Clin Invest. 2009 Sep;119(9):2577-89. doi: 10.1172/JCI36714. Palmitic acid mediates hypothalamic insulin resistance by altering PKC-theta subcellular localization in rodents. Benoit SC, Kemp CJ, Elias CF.

[6] Med Hypotheses. 1986 Jun;20(2):183-97. The unique merits of a low-fat diet for weight control. McCarty MF.

[7] Eur J Clin Nutr. 1995 Sep;49(9):675-90. A satiety index of common foods. Holt S.

Edited by misterE, 05 September 2012 - 06:06 AM.

[misterE]

And is there any real evidence implicating carbs more than fats?

The data clearly shows that the largest dietary change that took place in the last 100 years is a sharp increase in both fat and sugar and a decrease in starch and fiber. Basically Americans are eating much more meat, cheese, ice-cream, vegetable-oil and sugar and less whole-grains and potatoes [1-2].





[1] Am J Clin Nutr. 2010 May;91(5):1530S-1536S. Trends in food availability, 1909-2007. Barnard ND.

[2] Am J Clin Nutr. 1959 Jan-Feb;7(1):91-7. The American diet; past and present. Trulson MF.

[Hebbeh]

There is a big difference between fat that's synthesized and deposited in places you'd rather not have it, (like the liver) and fat that is eaten and metabolized as dietary fat. Dietary fat is associated with fat soluble vitamins, moderates the post-prandial glucose spike, and enhances satiety.

Fat comes from mainly 2 sources. The first source is the fat you directly eat; the second is the fat you synthesize from fructose. When the adipose-tissue becomes overstuffed with triglycerides, fatty-acids can accumulate ectopically, like in the liver, kidneys, muscles, heart, pancreas, etc.

You don't need dietary-fat to absorb fat-soluble vitamins. These fat-soluble vitamins are absorbed into body-fat... not dietary-fat: although dietary-fat effortlessly becomes body-fat [1-3].

Also, dietary-fat doesn’t stimulate much satiety [4] [6]. This is most likely due to a lack of insulin and leptin secretion in response to dietary-fat. Plus dietary-fat inhibits insulin and leptin signaling in the brain [5], thus the body doesn’t register the calories consumed. Starch, a very powerful stimulus of insulin-secretion, is very satiating [6]. Potatoes are actually the most satiating food there is; over twice as satisfying as beef [7].




[1] Am J Clin Nutr. 2002 Oct;76(4):750-7. Adipose tissue biomarkers of fatty acid intake. Baylin A, Kabagambe EK, Siles X.

[2] Prog Lipid Res. 2008 Sep;47(5):348-80. Fatty acid composition of adipose tissue and blood in humans and its use as a biomarker of dietary intake. Hodson L, Skeaff CM, Fielding BA.

[3] J Nutr. 2001 Mar;131(3):828-33. Fatty acid composition of adipose tissue and serum lipids are valid biological markers of dairy fat intake in men. Wolk A, Furuheim M, Vessby B.

[4] Am J Med. 2002 Dec 30;113 Suppl 9B:41S-46S. Low-fat diets are preferred. Jéquier E, Bray GA.

[5] J Clin Invest. 2009 Sep;119(9):2577-89. doi: 10.1172/JCI36714. Palmitic acid mediates hypothalamic insulin resistance by altering PKC-theta subcellular localization in rodents. Benoit SC, Kemp CJ, Elias CF.

[6] Med Hypotheses. 1986 Jun;20(2):183-97. The unique merits of a low-fat diet for weight control. McCarty MF.

[7] Eur J Clin Nutr. 1995 Sep;49(9):675-90. A satiety index of common foods. Holt S.

Fructose doesn't automatically become fat....only when liver glycogen is full (we’ve been through this before). And ALL EXCESS calories will be converted to triglycerides and stored. And dietary fat won’t be stored unless eating excessive calories...in which case that is the problem..and where all your studies come from. You just can't compare a couch potato eating excessive junk food calories with an active individual eating a high quality diet at maintenance. I take it you speak from experience and must be the former couch potato junk food addict, in which case any diet would be an improvement.

[TheFountain]

I find much of Hebbeh's speculation as to MisterE's personal life (and other peoples personal lives) somewhat rude.

[platypus]

Where's the evidence that potatoes and whole-grains are good for you? Sure whole-grains are better than white-grains, but that does not make them a superfood.

[niner]

You don't need dietary-fat to absorb fat-soluble vitamins. These fat-soluble vitamins are absorbed into body-fat... not dietary-fat:

You are misunderstanding the physics here. Isolated hydrophobic molecules have very poor bioavailablity unless they are dissolved in a lipid to begin with. They can't be absorbed in body fat if they never make it out of the GI tract. There is a small amount of absorption of the fat soluble vitamins without fat, but the RDAs are based on a normal diet, not a starchaterian diet.

[nupi]

You are misunderstanding the physics here. Isolated hydrophobic molecules have very poor bioavailablity unless they are dissolved in a lipid to begin with. They can't be absorbed in body fat if they never make it out of the GI tract. There is a small amount of absorption of the fat soluble vitamins without fat, but the RDAs are based on a normal diet, not a starchaterian diet.

This. I thought that was so obvious that I didnt even bother to comment, maybe it's not. There is a reason why better quality fat soluble vitamins come in fat filled softgels (and its not becaue of price, normal pills are vastly cheaper to make)...

[niner]

I find much of Hebbeh's speculation as to MisterE's personal life (and other peoples personal lives) somewhat rude.

MisterE's already told us his nutritional history. His diet was so awful that he was starting to develop metabolic syndrome in high school. He adopted veganism, and it turned his health around, which probably has a lot to do with the fact that all he ever posts here is pro-vegan argumentation. This is a similar story to many people who feel that their lives were saved, or at least substantially improved by the adoption of various other diets. There are plenty of people who went from blob to awesome after going paleo. Some of them are evangelists that can be a little sketchy on the science, so that isn't strictly a vegan problem. Nutritional trollery is irritating no matter which "side" it comes from, but it seems like the religiosity is more extreme on the vegan side, probably because they feel that they have the moral high ground.

[Mind]

I always tell vegans to hammer away at the moral side of the argument, betting that they would have a easier time converting people (that argument works much better on me). Instead it seems many of them have gone the nutritional route, making unscientific claims that humans are naturally evolved vegans (not omnivores) and that increased carb intake in the U.S. has nothing to do with the obesity epidemic.

[Hebbeh]

I find much of Hebbeh's speculation as to MisterE's personal life (and other peoples personal lives) somewhat rude.

Do you expect me to apologize if the truth hurts? ;-)

Edited by Hebbeh, 05 September 2012 - 05:47 PM.

[misterE]

Where's the evidence that potatoes and whole-grains are good for you? Sure whole-grains are better than white-grains, but that does not make them a superfood.

These are just a few...

Am J Clin Nutr. 2006 Jan;83(1):124-31. Whole-grain intake is inversely associated with the metabolic syndrome and mortality in older adults. Sahyoun NR, Jacques PF, Zhang XL.

Am J Clin Nutr. 2002 Aug;76(2):390-8. Whole-grain intake is favorably associated with metabolic risk factors for type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular disease in the Framingham Offspring Study. McKeown NM, Meigs JB, Liu S.

Nutr Rev. 2012 Jul;70(7):387-96. Effect of whole grains on markers of subclinical inflammation. Lefevre M, Jonnalagadda S.

Eur J Clin Nutr. 2004 Nov;58(11):1443-61. Cereal grains, legumes and diabetes. Venn BJ, Mann JI.

J Nutr. 2012 Jul;142(7):1304-13. Greater whole-grain intake is associated with lower risk of type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular disease, and weight gain. Ye EQ, Chacko SA, Chou EL, Kugizaki M, Liu S.

Proc Nutr Soc. 2003 Feb;62(1):135-42. Whole grains protect against atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease. Anderson JW.



Whole-grains and potatoes have played a vital role in the development of civilization. Simply put, if humans didn’t harvest and capitalize on the value and potential of grains… there would be no cilivization and we wouldn’t be here having this discussion. Potatoes are the staple-food in South-America and the population of Ireland doubled when the potato was introduced to their culture. The Irish depended so much on the potato that when the crop failed, millions of people died as a result of starvation, this event was called the Irish Potato Famine.

Whole-grains and potatoes have supplied the major source of calories to every part of the world. Corn in North America, potatoes in South America, wheat in Europe, millet in Africa, Barley in the Middle-East, and rice in Asia. Only recently (in the last 100 years) have humans had so much access to rich foods (meat, dairy, sugar, processed-foods, etc). It is the rich mans food that causes disease. Obesity, heart-disease, diabetes, cancer, gout, tooth-decay, were all disease reserved for the wealthy, rich aristocrats and royalty, who could afford to eat such delicacies daily, as a result they developed diseases of affluence. The common person ate grains and vegetables and labored all day in the sun.

Edited by misterE, 05 September 2012 - 10:48 PM.

[misterE]

I always tell vegans to hammer away at the moral side of the argument, betting that they would have a easier time converting people (that argument works much better on me). Instead it seems many of them have gone the nutritional route, making unscientific claims that humans are naturally evolved vegans (not omnivores) and that increased carb intake in the U.S. has nothing to do with the obesity epidemic.

Like I've said before, most studies show health benefits of whole-grains and vegetables... and there are very few (if any studies) showing adverse effects of whole-grain and vegetables. However, there are many studies showing negative health effects of meat and fat. This is clear to anyone who reads the studies I post and truly cares. Some people on this forum are so "set in their ways" that they ignore the studies and pretend that whole-grains are bad and meat is good. Which is exactly opposite of what the bulk of the scientific-literature suggests!

In regards to the American obesity epidemic, I've already posted studies showing what caused it. It's a high intake of both fat and sugar... and a low intake of starch and fiber.

Everything I've said I've backed with peer-reviewed studies, so to suggest that I'm making “unscientific claims” is unfounded.

Edited by misterE, 05 September 2012 - 10:41 PM.

[zorba990]

Where's the evidence that potatoes and whole-grains are good for you? Sure whole-grains are better than white-grains, but that does not make them a superfood.

These are just a few...

Am J Clin Nutr. 2006 Jan;83(1):124-31. Whole-grain intake is inversely associated with the metabolic syndrome and mortality in older adults. Sahyoun NR, Jacques PF, Zhang XL.

Am J Clin Nutr. 2002 Aug;76(2):390-8. Whole-grain intake is favorably associated with metabolic risk factors for type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular disease in the Framingham Offspring Study. McKeown NM, Meigs JB, Liu S.

Nutr Rev. 2012 Jul;70(7):387-96. Effect of whole grains on markers of subclinical inflammation. Lefevre M, Jonnalagadda S.

Eur J Clin Nutr. 2004 Nov;58(11):1443-61. Cereal grains, legumes and diabetes. Venn BJ, Mann JI.

J Nutr. 2012 Jul;142(7):1304-13. Greater whole-grain intake is associated with lower risk of type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular disease, and weight gain. Ye EQ, Chacko SA, Chou EL, Kugizaki M, Liu S.

Proc Nutr Soc. 2003 Feb;62(1):135-42. Whole grains protect against atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease. Anderson JW.



Whole-grains and potatoes have played a vital role in the development of civilization. Simply put, if humans didn’t harvest and capitalize on the value and potential of grains… there would be no cilivization and we wouldn’t be here having this discussion. Potatoes are the staple-food in South-America and the population of Ireland doubled when the potato was introduced to their culture. The Irish depended so much on the potato that when the crop failed, millions of people died as a result of starvation, this event was called the Irish Potato Famine.

Whole-grains and potatoes have supplied the major source of calories to every part of the world. Corn in North America, potatoes in South America, wheat in Europe, millet in Africa, Barley in the Middle-East, and rice in Asia. Only recently (in the last 100 years) have humans had so much access to rich foods (meat, dairy, sugar, processed-foods, etc). It is the rich mans food that causes disease. Obesity, heart-disease, diabetes, cancer, gout, tooth-decay, were all disease reserved for the wealthy, rich aristocrats and royalty, who could afford to eat such delicacies daily, as a result they developed diseases of affluence. The common person ate grains and vegetables and labored all day in the sun.

Low carb seems to have plenty of evidence for disease control:
http://www.mercola.c..._low_grains.htm

The fact that a diet (like say mostly white rice) can allow people to reach puberty and reproduce does not make it an optimal diet by any means.
White potatoes, cooked, are higher on the glycemic index than Fruit Roll ups :
http://www.health.ha...r_100_foods.htm

There are many studies on both sides. What I can say is that I have seen a friend, first hand, bring his type 2 diabetes under control by eliminating grains, starches and other high carbohydrate foods from his diet. He, like myself, now eats mostly lean meat, whey isolate, low sugar fruits like berries, and vegetables with occasional nuts and chia seeds and sometimes a tablespoon of raw olive or coconut oil. On starchy foods his blood sugar was all over the place. I do ok with oats but only eat them occasionally as they cause weight gain for me.

http://www.marksdail...d-worst-fruits/
http://www.wheatbellyblog.com
http://articles.merc...-than-this.aspx

[TheFountain]

I find much of Hebbeh's speculation as to MisterE's personal life (and other peoples personal lives) somewhat rude.

MisterE's already told us his nutritional history. His diet was so awful that he was starting to develop metabolic syndrome in high school. He adopted veganism, and it turned his health around, which probably has a lot to do with the fact that all he ever posts here is pro-vegan argumentation. This is a similar story to many people who feel that their lives were saved, or at least substantially improved by the adoption of various other diets. There are plenty of people who went from blob to awesome after going paleo. Some of them are evangelists that can be a little sketchy on the science, so that isn't strictly a vegan problem. Nutritional trollery is irritating no matter which "side" it comes from, but it seems like the religiosity is more extreme on the vegan side, probably because they feel that they have the moral high ground.

I stand corrected on the first aspect of what you said. However, hebbeh has also tried to bring up my own personal life as an example when he knows nothing about it. Either way, let's keep it civilized instead of playing favorites?

[Hebbeh]

I stand corrected on the first aspect of what you said. However, hebbeh has also tried to bring up my own personal life as an example when he knows nothing about it. Either way, let's keep it civilized instead of playing favorites?

Quite frankly fountain, I've only commented on what you've posted. I haven't made any assumptions or pried into anybody’s personal life beyond what they have chosen to share. You ask for input on numerous topics and then don't like the answers. If you don't want to discuss it, don't bring it up. It would seem you are the one taking it off topic and making unfounded personal attacks.

And as a side note, misterE has repeatedly continued to repeated false information in regards to fructose and dietary fat even though corrected and repeatedly proven wrong with references in previous threads....this isn't opinion...it is scientific fact. Most posters are at least open minded enough to learn from their misunderstanding rather than having a personal agenda and as such, It is becoming tedious at best. And ignoring this misinformation is what allows internet misinformation to become "internet fact".

[TheFountain]

I stand corrected on the first aspect of what you said. However, hebbeh has also tried to bring up my own personal life as an example when he knows nothing about it. Either way, let's keep it civilized instead of playing favorites?

Quite frankly fountain, I've only commented on what you've posted. I haven't made any assumptions or pried into anybody’s personal life beyond what they have chosen to share. You ask for input on numerous topics and then don't like the answers. If you don't want to discuss it, don't bring it up. It would seem you are the one taking it off topic and making unfounded personal attacks.

And as a side note, misterE has repeatedly continued to repeated false information in regards to fructose and dietary fat even though corrected and repeatedly proven wrong with references in previous threads....this isn't opinion...it is scientific fact. Most posters are at least open minded enough to learn from their misunderstanding rather than having a personal agenda and as such, It is becoming tedious at best. And ignoring this misinformation is what allows internet misinformation to become "internet fact".

What you do is get ad hominem and start insulting people. Telling me I look like "a kid" was intended as one such insult when I made it clear that being a body builder is not my goal. How would you like it if someone said you looked like an old man? Furthermore, would it be necessary within the context of the conversation? Your statement was not necessary within the context of when I provided the picture. I was providing the picture to contest Duke's view that eating a lot of carbs caused abdominal fat gain. What you said had nothing to do with that context.

[Hebbeh]

I stand corrected on the first aspect of what you said. However, hebbeh has also tried to bring up my own personal life as an example when he knows nothing about it. Either way, let's keep it civilized instead of playing favorites?

Quite frankly fountain, I've only commented on what you've posted. I haven't made any assumptions or pried into anybody’s personal life beyond what they have chosen to share. You ask for input on numerous topics and then don't like the answers. If you don't want to discuss it, don't bring it up. It would seem you are the one taking it off topic and making unfounded personal attacks.

And as a side note, misterE has repeatedly continued to repeated false information in regards to fructose and dietary fat even though corrected and repeatedly proven wrong with references in previous threads....this isn't opinion...it is scientific fact. Most posters are at least open minded enough to learn from their misunderstanding rather than having a personal agenda and as such, It is becoming tedious at best. And ignoring this misinformation is what allows internet misinformation to become "internet fact".

What you do is get ad hominem and start insulting people. Telling me I look like "a kid" was intended as one such insult when I made it clear that being a body builder is not my goal. How would you like it if someone said you looked like an old man? Furthermore, would it be necessary within the context of the conversation? Your statement was not necessary within the context of when I provided the picture. I was providing the picture to contest Duke's view that eating a lot of carbs caused abdominal fat gain. What you said had nothing to do with that context.

To be quite honest, I'm not sure why you chose to post a pic posing as such. I saw that as a little bizarre. And you came off (not very well) as trying to be vain (look at my abs) and I called it as such ...it was funny, quite frankly. Many people can eat a crappy fast food diet through their teens and twenties and appear lean if they have a good metabolism...but check back when 35 or 40 and see how those extra calories are treating you...so being skinny at 19 or 20 doesn't prove health. EXCESS carbs can be stored as visceral fat and won't be visible anyway. Leanness ultimately comes down to caloric balance....excess calories of any macro nutrient will be stored. Carbs can be worse because they can digest faster and your metabolism has to clear them from your blood...thus excess insulin and stored as visceral fat....but this only happens when eating in excess of caloric balance. Some are cherry picking and taking "studies" out of contest in an attempt to support their preconceived opinions and not looking at the complete picture. There is a reason for the phrase repeated throughout history of "all things in moderation" which is probably the best course for longevity.