125 replies to this topic

[niner]

Why is the Paleo-diet so popular?

Because it makes people feel good, energetic and alive. Because they like the body composition that a properly constructed paleo diet gives them.

Who's the guy in your avatar photo? He doesn't look like he's eating right...

[misterE]

Who's the guy in your avatar photo? He doesn't look like he's eating right...

It's Riff Raff from Rocky Horror Picture Show.

[hivemind]

Why is the Paleo-diet so popular?

Because it makes people feel good, energetic and alive. Because they like the body composition that a properly constructed paleo diet gives them.

Who's the guy in your avatar photo? He doesn't look like he's eating right...

Carbs make me feel good. They increase serotonin levels. Paleo is just low carb repackaged.

[Shepard]

Carbs make me feel good. They increase serotonin levels. Paleo is just low carb repackaged.

What percentage of overall caloric intake are you considering low-carb?

[hivemind]

Carbs make me feel good. They increase serotonin levels. Paleo is just low carb repackaged.

What percentage of overall caloric intake are you considering low-carb?

I think 25-35% is a good upper limit for fat intake. Saturated fat should be under 10%.

For maximum lifespan a very low fat diet is probably the best. Something like 10-15% fat.

[Shepard]

Assuming a 25-30% protein intake, your upper limit isn't that far from some of the paleo community these days as the carb phobia has thankfully been lifted. 30-50% carbs isn't unheard of in that population, especially amongst the higher activity segment.

[niner]

Paleo is just low carb repackaged.

You're confusing paleo with hyperlipid or extreme low carb. It's neither of those. This is why we keep going around and around with these silly arguments.

[hivemind]

Assuming a 25-30% protein intake, your upper limit isn't that far from some of the paleo community these days as the carb phobia has thankfully been lifted. 30-50% carbs isn't unheard of in that population, especially amongst the higher activity segment.

That is a pretty high protein intake. You don't need more than 1,2 grams of protein per kg of body weight or something like that. Even less than 1 gram can be enough.

Other thing is that "saturated fat and cholesterol are good" -thing.

Edited by hivemind, 12 September 2012 - 02:40 AM.

[Shepard]

You're picking out pieces from various camps within the paleo movement and claiming them for all. Not all of the paleo folks are crazy about saturated fat or dietary cholesterol. it's no different than raw veganism. You have gourmet raw on one end and fruitarianism on the other and an entire spectrum in the middle.

[misterE]

I think 25-35% is a good upper limit for fat intake. Saturated fat should be under 10%.

For maximum lifespan a very low fat diet is probably the best. Something like 10-15% fat.

I think that 25 to 35% fat is way too high. The higher the percentage of fat, the worse insulin-sensitivity you'll have. Ornish and Esselstyn demonstrated that atherosclerosis is only reversed when fat is kept below 15%. The Western diet is about 40% fat and 45% carbohydrate (most of which is sugar, not starch).

Most grains, beans and vegetables average in at about 7% fat

Potatoes -1% fat
Onion -2% fat
Barley -3% fat
Pinto Beans -3% fat
Asparagus -5% fat
Wheat -5% fat
Carrots -5% fat
Rice -7% fat
Celery -9% fat
Lettuce -9% fat
Corn -10% fat
Broccoli -10% fat
Kale -11% fat
Oats -16% fat
Salmon - 27% fat
Chicken -29% fat
Lean Steak -43% fat
Milk -50% fat
Eggs -65% fat
Bacon -68% fat
Ground beef -71% fat
Cheese -73% fat
Sausage -75% fat
Butter -100% fat
Olive-oil -100% fat




The Tarahumara Indians are notorious for having incredible athletic ability (able to run 100 miles in a day) and are completely free of atherosclerosis and other western-diseases [1]. They eat a diet based on corn, beans and vegetables… with the macronutrient ratios averaging 10% fat/10% protein/80% starch [2]. The same macronutrient ratio is found with the Okinawans, eating over 90% carbohydrate mainly from yams and rice [3].




[1] Am J Clin Nutr 1978;31:1131-42. The plasma lipids, lipoproteins, and diet of the Tarahumara Indians of Mexico. Connor WE, Cerqueira MT, Connor RW.

[2] Am J Clin Nutr. 1979 Apr;32(4):905-15. The food and nutrient intakes of the Tarahumara Indians of Mexico. Cerqueira MT, Fry MM, Connor WE.

[3] Circulation. 2008 Jul 15;118(3):214-5. Dietary patterns and longevity: expanding the blue zones. Appel LJ.

[hivemind]

Oats have some fat. 17% according to this:

http://www.fineli.fi...did=153&lang=fi

[misterE]

I got the fat percentages from cron-o-meter.

[Hebbeh]

The Tarahumara Indians are notorious for having incredible athletic ability (able to run 100 miles in a day) and are completely free of atherosclerosis and other western-diseases [1]. They eat a diet based on corn, beans and vegetables… with the macronutrient ratios averaging 10% fat/10% protein/80% starch [2].

Do you really think the Tarahumara Indians have low rates of atherosclerosis because they eat corn and beans....or because they run 100 miles a day? I'm betting on the 100 miles a day. I'm sure you can find studies that show exercise and activity trump diet in the end...especially when you are running 100 miles a day. No amount of potatoes are going to save the couch potato. And the Tarahumara Indians have short lives BTW...but I'm sure are healthy while it lasts. I'm pretty sure none live to any advanced age...in fact, most are already dead at my age.

Edit: and the Tarahumara Indians don't eat corn and beans because they think it is the best diet for them....they eat corn and beans because they live in the 3rd World and corn and beans is all they have...if they are lucky. In reality, I'm sure they are practicing caloric restriction...by necessity.

Edited by Hebbeh, 12 September 2012 - 04:34 AM.

[hivemind]

The Tarahumara Indians are notorious for having incredible athletic ability (able to run 100 miles in a day) and are completely free of atherosclerosis and other western-diseases [1]. They eat a diet based on corn, beans and vegetables… with the macronutrient ratios averaging 10% fat/10% protein/80% starch [2].

Do you really think the Tarahumara Indians have low rates of atherosclerosis because they eat corn and beans....or because they run 100 miles a day? I'm betting on the 100 miles a day. I'm sure you can find studies that show exercise and activity trump diet in the end...especially when you are running 100 miles a day. No amount of potatoes are going to save the couch potato. And the Tarahumara Indians have short lives BTW...but I'm sure are healthy while it lasts. I'm pretty sure none live to any advanced age...in fact, most are already dead at my age.

Edit: and the Tarahumara Indians don't eat corn and beans because they think it is the best diet for them....they eat corn and beans because they live in the 3rd World and corn and beans is all they have...if they are lucky. In reality, I'm sure they are practicing caloric restriction...by necessity.

LDL-cholesterol trumps everything when it is question about atherosclerosis. Potato and beans make your cholesterol low. Not beef and butter.

http://content.onlin...ticleid=1142928

[hivemind]

^I'll correct that a little bit. It is all about LDL particle count. LDL-P is the king of the health markers when it comes to atherosclerosis.

But if you are a healthy person(low risk according to standard panel) without family history of heart disease then the standard lipid panel is about as accurate of a risk assesment than the LDL-P is.

Edited by hivemind, 12 September 2012 - 06:14 AM.

[nupi]

hivemind: I used to eat very low fat (but low sugar) and my LDL was very low. I shifted towards more fat and more protein (incl. saturated fat) and LDL has not changed at all. Total cholesterol has increased slightly (but is still low) but the HDL-LDL ratio actually got slightly better (in fairness, I did add fish oil in between).

The key thing is: I eat healthy fats, not junk fats. I have eliminated all seed oils as far as possible (the odd sunflower oil in pre made mayo or some canola is hard to avoid, especially when eating out, thankfully, corn and soy are not really an issue in Europe) and replaced them with olive oil, macadamia (which is actually higher in oleic than even olive oil), avocado and some coconut oil (there is evidence that MCT has different effects on the metabolism than other longer chain saturated fats). Aside of that, there is obviously some saturated fat coming from meat but aside of bacon, I dislike fatty meats so that is going to be a relatively minor part (as it is hard to get pastured meat around here the meat probably delivers more omega 6 than I would like but what can you do...).

[hivemind]

hivemind: I used to eat very low fat (but low sugar) and my LDL was very low. I shifted towards more fat and more protein (incl. saturated fat) and LDL has not changed at all. Total cholesterol has increased slightly (but is still low) but the HDL-LDL ratio actually got slightly better (in fairness, I did add fish oil in between).

The key thing is: I eat healthy fats, not junk fats. I have eliminated all seed oils as far as possible (the odd sunflower oil in pre made mayo or some canola is hard to avoid, especially when eating out, thankfully, corn and soy are not really an issue in Europe) and replaced them with olive oil, macadamia (which is actually higher in oleic than even olive oil), avocado and some coconut oil (there is evidence that MCT has different effects on the metabolism than other longer chain saturated fats). Aside of that, there is obviously some saturated fat coming from meat but aside of bacon, I dislike fatty meats so that is going to be a relatively minor part (as it is hard to get pastured meat around here the meat probably delivers more omega 6 than I would like but what can you do...).

Polyunsaturated fats lower LDL-cholesterol. Maybe you are eating them? HDL-LDL ratio(and HDL) is a questionable marker.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2903818/

Yes, healthy fats. The mediterranean diet might be as good as a low fat diet. Ancel Keys lived to age 100.

I would prefer olive oil and flax seed oil and eat nuts and seeds. Escpecially I like hemp seeds, chia seeds, brazil nuts and walnuts. Corn oil is something I would avoid.

The amount of omega6 in meats is pretty negligible. Omega 6 is not that bad as long as you are getting some omega 3 also. The omega 6/omega 3 -ratio is not very important in spite of all the misinformation about this in various paleo blogs and internet sites.

[Hebbeh]

The Tarahumara Indians are notorious for having incredible athletic ability (able to run 100 miles in a day) and are completely free of atherosclerosis and other western-diseases [1]. They eat a diet based on corn, beans and vegetables… with the macronutrient ratios averaging 10% fat/10% protein/80% starch [2].

Do you really think the Tarahumara Indians have low rates of atherosclerosis because they eat corn and beans....or because they run 100 miles a day? I'm betting on the 100 miles a day. I'm sure you can find studies that show exercise and activity trump diet in the end...especially when you are running 100 miles a day. No amount of potatoes are going to save the couch potato. And the Tarahumara Indians have short lives BTW...but I'm sure are healthy while it lasts. I'm pretty sure none live to any advanced age...in fact, most are already dead at my age.

Edit: and the Tarahumara Indians don't eat corn and beans because they think it is the best diet for them....they eat corn and beans because they live in the 3rd World and corn and beans is all they have...if they are lucky. In reality, I'm sure they are practicing caloric restriction...by necessity.

LDL-cholesterol trumps everything when it is question about atherosclerosis. Potato and beans make your cholesterol low. Not beef and butter.

http://content.onlin...ticleid=1142928

Riigghht.....it's all the corn and beans....and has nothing to do with the 100 mile runs and caloric restriction (by necessity due to 3rd World living conditions)....lots of sound reasoning there. And they still don't live to a ripe old age....though I'm sure they have great health span while it lasts. Do your experiments with groups practicing caloric restriction and 100 mile runs like the Tarahumara Indians and I bet diet doesn't have an effect under these conditions. And if you were truly knowledgeable, you would realize cholesterol is highly affected by caloric restriction.

Yes, healthy fats. The mediterranean diet might be as good as a low fat diet. Ancel Keys lived to age 100.

Bingo. We have a winner.

[nupi]

Polyunsaturated fats lower LDL-cholesterol. Maybe you are eating them?

Yes, as omega-3 in fish oil. And to some degree in all other oils as well (and the almonds I also like to eat every now and then). But I try to err on the side of less rather than more, especially when it comes to omega-6.

Yes, healthy fats. The mediterranean diet might be as good as a low fat diet. Ancel Keys lived to age 100.

I would prefer olive oil and flax seed oil and eat nuts and seeds. Escpecially I like hemp seeds, chia seeds, brazil nuts and walnuts. Corn oil is something I would avoid.

Brazil nuts have a nasty tendency of leading to Selenium poisoning if eaten in excess (also, I can't say I like their taste). Not too fond of eating seeds, either way. Looking at the fatty acid profile, macadamia (which has the highest share of MUFAs of all nuts) beats walnut significantly.

The amount of omega6 in meats is pretty negligible. Omega 6 is not that bad as long as you are getting some omega 3 also. The omega 6/omega 3 -ratio is not very important in spite of all the misinformation about this in various paleo blogs and internet sites.

Which is why everyone and their brother (incl. the low fat crowd) recommends either fish for the omega 3 it contains, sure.

BTW, the local newspaper just today had a decent article that even the medical establishment in Switzerland and Germany seems to be changing its views towards higher fat (40-50%), lower carb (20-30% of low GI carbs) diets, in part because the current recommendation of high carb simply does not work. Probably largely because it is nigh impossible to consistently achieve without resorting to high GI carbs.

[hivemind]

Brazil nuts have a nasty tendency of leading to Selenium poisoning if eaten in excess (also, I can't say I like their taste). Not too fond of eating seeds, either way. Looking at the fatty acid profile, macadamia (which has the highest share of MUFAs of all nuts) beats walnut significantly.

Nuts are much more than fatty acid profiles. Omega 6 is demonized for no good reason.

Which is why everyone and their brother (incl. the low fat crowd) recommends either fish for the omega 3 it contains, sure.

Fish is good if it's not fried and eaten with saturated fat. It has nothing to do with omega 6 being harmful.

BTW, the local newspaper just today had a decent article that even the medical establishment in Switzerland and Germany seems to be changing its views towards higher fat (40-50%), lower carb (20-30% of low GI carbs) diets, in part because the current recommendation of high carb simply does not work. Probably largely because it is nigh impossible to consistently achieve without resorting to high GI carbs.

Current recommendation is not "high carb". Harvard recommends 25-35% fat and even that is probably a compromise recommendation not optimal nutrition. Walter Willett admits that they will not recommend lower fat diets for the fact alone that the average citizen can't/won't do it in reality. But most importantly: nobody is recommending saturated fat over 10%. GI is another thing taken too seriously. There are healthy high GI carbs: for example I think potatoes are pretty healthy.

I really don't care what the average person wants to eat. I can do all kinds of more demanding diets. I am more interested in optimal diets. Mass recommendations are compromises.

Edited by hivemind, 12 September 2012 - 01:15 PM.

[niner]

Carrots -5% fat
Rice -7% fat
Celery -9% fat
Lettuce -9% fat
Corn -10% fat
Broccoli -10% fat
Kale -11% fat
Oats -16% fat

Oats have some fat. 17% according to this:

These number seem off by a mile. I ran plain oatmeal through nutritiondata.com. This is the way most of us eat oats. It clocked in at 2% fat. That I can believe. Now, celery and lettuce 9 percent fat? you gotta be kidding. Ground beef 71% fat? Imagine what that would look like: Like a chunk of lard with little flecks of meat in it. If this is what you think meat is, then I can understand why you think it's so unhealthy.

[misterE]

The Tarahumara Indians are notorious for having incredible athletic ability (able to run 100 miles in a day) and are completely free of atherosclerosis and other western-diseases [1]. They eat a diet based on corn, beans and vegetables… with the macronutrient ratios averaging 10% fat/10% protein/80% starch [2].

Do you really think the Tarahumara Indians have low rates of atherosclerosis because they eat corn and beans....or because they run 100 miles a day? I'm betting on the 100 miles a day. I'm sure you can find studies that show exercise and activity trump diet in the end...especially when you are running 100 miles a day. No amount of potatoes are going to save the couch potato. And the Tarahumara Indians have short lives BTW...but I'm sure are healthy while it lasts. I'm pretty sure none live to any advanced age...in fact, most are already dead at my age.

Edit: and the Tarahumara Indians don't eat corn and beans because they think it is the best diet for them....they eat corn and beans because they live in the 3rd World and corn and beans is all they have...if they are lucky. In reality, I'm sure they are practicing caloric restriction...by necessity.

Ever hear of Jim Fixx, the marathon runner? He use to believe you could eat whatever you want as long as you exercised. Well he died of a heart-attack. Or what about former president Bill Clinton, who was know to run every day... he’s had multiple heart-attacks. If the Tarahumara Indians didn’t eat a starch-based diet, they would have no energy or endurance to run so long. Remember, most athletes, especially endurance runners, practice “carbohydrate-loading”. Without those carbohydrates, you have no energy and your body is forced to go into gluconeogenesis, which breaks down muscle-tissue and converts protein into glucose, not something an athlete would want.

Not all Tarahumara Indians run, like the women who stay home and cook, yet they are free from atherosclerosis. The reason why the Tarahumara have shortened life-expectancies is because they have a high rate of infant-mortality, due to a lack of sanitation. Plus in Caldwell Esselstyn’s study, he found atherosclerosis regressed by just eating a starch-based diet... without exercise! What do make of the Esselstyn's results Hebbeh?

[misterE]

Riigghht.....it's all the corn and beans....and has nothing to do with the 100 mile runs and caloric restriction (by necessity due to 3rd World living conditions)....lots of sound reasoning there.

Let's just assume you are right and that it is the running and calorie-restriction that prevents atherosclerosis is the Tarahumara. With that said... how do you explain Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn's patients who didn't exercise during the study... yet still had reversal of atherosclerosis?

Edited by misterE, 12 September 2012 - 10:41 PM.

[misterE]

These number seem off by a mile. I ran plain oatmeal through nutritiondata.com. This is the way most of us eat oats. It clocked in at 2% fat. That I can believe. Now, celery and lettuce 9 percent fat? you gotta be kidding. Ground beef 71% fat? Imagine what that would look like: Like a chunk of lard with little flecks of meat in it. If this is what you think meat is, then I can understand why you think it's so unhealthy.

These calculations were taken from cron-o-meter. Look it up yourself.

In regards to the ground beef, the standard ground beef is 80-20 (80% protein/20% fat). But that number is based off of weight... not calories. Yeah, there is more protein than fat by weight, but not calorie. Calorically, most of the calories coming from the ground beef are from fat. See for yourself… type in on cron-o-meter “beef, ground, 80% lean/20% fat, raw” and you will see that 71% of the calories come from fat.

The same trick is done with milk. 2% milk isn't really 2% fat. Its only 2% fat by weight... not calorie. Based off calories, 2% milk is actually 36% fat.

This is a trick done by food manufactures to make their products seem healthier… when in fact, it’s justa big hunk-a-grease.

[THawk720]

To further add to the endless debate, http://nusi.org/ launched today.

[Hebbeh]

These number seem off by a mile. I ran plain oatmeal through nutritiondata.com. This is the way most of us eat oats. It clocked in at 2% fat. That I can believe. Now, celery and lettuce 9 percent fat? you gotta be kidding. Ground beef 71% fat? Imagine what that would look like: Like a chunk of lard with little flecks of meat in it. If this is what you think meat is, then I can understand why you think it's so unhealthy.

These calculations were taken from cron-o-meter. Look it up yourself.

In regards to the ground beef, the standard ground beef is 80-20 (80% protein/20% fat). But that number is based off of weight... not calories. Yeah, there is more protein than fat by weight, but not calorie. Calorically, most of the calories coming from the ground beef are from fat. See for yourself… type in on cron-o-meter “beef, ground, 80% lean/20% fat, raw” and you will see that 71% of the calories come from fat.

The same trick is done with milk. 2% milk isn't really 2% fat. Its only 2% fat by weight... not calorie. Based off calories, 2% milk is actually 36% fat.

This is a trick done by food manufactures to make their products seem healthier… when in fact, it’s justa big hunk-a-grease.

Either more paranoid anti fat propaganda or you better brush up on your math skills.

Take the typical quarter pound hamburger patty....
4 ounces raw = 113.4 grams.
80% protein = 0.8 x 113.4 = 90.7 grams x 4 calories per gram = 362.8 calories.
20% fat - 0.2 x 113.4 = 22.7 grams x 9 calories per gram = 204.3 calories.
Total calories of burger = 567.1 calories.
Protein % of calories = 362.8 calories / 567.1 calories = 64% protein by calories.
Fat % of calories (before cooking) = 204.3 calories / 567.1 calories = 36% fat by calories.

Now this is before cooking...and we see that some % of fat will melt and drip off during cooking as witnessed by the sizzling and grease fire flare ups....than can get out of hand if not watching...so how much fat in the cooked burger? .....certainly less than 36%......I'm guessing the final cooked product is more like 75% protein and 25% fat by calories at the most...and more than likely even less....and this is with fatty 80/20 grind.

I personally don't eat much red meat anymore (not that I believe it isn't perfectly healthy in moderation) but who buys 80% anymore? I always buy at least 90% if not 93% lean for the occasional burger....and a good steak is leaner yet. So good quality grass fed beef is in reality down around 10-15% fat by calories on the dinner plate.

[Hebbeh]

The Tarahumara Indians are notorious for having incredible athletic ability (able to run 100 miles in a day) and are completely free of atherosclerosis and other western-diseases [1]. They eat a diet based on corn, beans and vegetables… with the macronutrient ratios averaging 10% fat/10% protein/80% starch [2].

Do you really think the Tarahumara Indians have low rates of atherosclerosis because they eat corn and beans....or because they run 100 miles a day? I'm betting on the 100 miles a day. I'm sure you can find studies that show exercise and activity trump diet in the end...especially when you are running 100 miles a day. No amount of potatoes are going to save the couch potato. And the Tarahumara Indians have short lives BTW...but I'm sure are healthy while it lasts. I'm pretty sure none live to any advanced age...in fact, most are already dead at my age.

Edit: and the Tarahumara Indians don't eat corn and beans because they think it is the best diet for them....they eat corn and beans because they live in the 3rd World and corn and beans is all they have...if they are lucky. In reality, I'm sure they are practicing caloric restriction...by necessity.

Ever hear of Jim Fixx, the marathon runner? He use to believe you could eat whatever you want as long as you exercised. Well he died of a heart-attack. Or what about former president Bill Clinton, who was know to run every day... he’s had multiple heart-attacks. If the Tarahumara Indians didn’t eat a starch-based diet, they would have no energy or endurance to run so long. Remember, most athletes, especially endurance runners, practice “carbohydrate-loading”. Without those carbohydrates, you have no energy and your body is forced to go into gluconeogenesis, which breaks down muscle-tissue and converts protein into glucose, not something an athlete would want.

Not all Tarahumara Indians run, like the women who stay home and cook, yet they are free from atherosclerosis. The reason why the Tarahumara have shortened life-expectancies is because they have a high rate of infant-mortality, due to a lack of sanitation. Plus in Caldwell Esselstyn’s study, he found atherosclerosis regressed by just eating a starch-based diet... without exercise! What do make of the Esselstyn's results Hebbeh?

You pick a poor example with Jim Fixx.....the rest of the story:

On July 20, 1984, Fixx died at age 52 of a fulminant heart attack, after his daily run on Vermont Route 15 in Hardwick. The autopsy revealed that atherosclerosis had blocked one coronary artery 95%, a second 85%, and a third 70%.^[3] Although there were opponents of Fixx's beliefs^[who?] who said this was evidence that running was harmful, medical opinion continued to uphold the link between exercise and longevity.^[4] In 1986 exercise physiologist Kenneth Cooper published an inventory of the risk factors that might have contributed to Fixx's death.^[5] Granted access to his medical records and autopsy, and after interviewing his friends and family, Cooper concluded that Fixx was genetically predisposed (his father died of a heart attack at age 43 and Fixx himself had a congenitally enlarged heart), and had several lifestyle issues. Fixx was a heavy smoker prior to beginning running at age 36, he had a stressful occupation, he had undergone a second divorce, and his weight before he took up running had ballooned to 220 pounds (100 kg).^[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Fixx

More anti fat propaganda....Fixx would have died regardless of starting running at age 36 or not because of bad genetics and unhealthy lifestyle. Poor genes + smoking + being fat couch potato till age 36 killed Jim Fixx. Too little too late.

Edited by Hebbeh, 13 September 2012 - 01:25 AM.

[Brett Black]

Now this is before cooking...and we see that some % of fat will melt and drip off during cooking as witnessed by the sizzling and grease fire flare ups....than can get out of hand if not watching...so how much fat in the cooked burger? .....certainly less than 36%......I'm guessing the final cooked product is more like 75% protein and 25% fat by calories at the most...and more than likely even less....and this is with fatty 80/20 grind.

I personally don't eat much red meat anymore (not that I believe it isn't perfectly healthy in moderation) but who buys 80% anymore? I always buy at least 90% if not 93% lean for the occasional burger....and a good steak is leaner yet. So good quality grass fed beef is in reality down around 10-15% fat by calories on the dinner plate.

Nutrient data for 23563, Beef, ground, 90% lean meat / 10% fat, patty, cooked, broiled
(USDA National Nutrient Database for Standard Reference Release 24)
http://ndb.nal.usda....6?qlookup=23563

By energy:
Protein = 51%
Fat = 49%

[hivemind]

Bill Clinton is running every day? :D

I don't think so.

[Hebbeh]

Riigghht.....it's all the corn and beans....and has nothing to do with the 100 mile runs and caloric restriction (by necessity due to 3rd World living conditions)....lots of sound reasoning there.

Let's just assume you are right and that it is the running and calorie-restriction that prevents atherosclerosis is the Tarahumara. With that said... how do you explain Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn's patients who didn't exercise during the study... yet still had reversal of atherosclerosis?

I've explained this before and it's really quite simple. People get atherosclerosis from overeating, becoming fat, not exercising, and generally not living anything close to a healthy lifestyle. No surprise there. That is what Joe couch potato has to live up to. It's the excess calories and lack of exercise. That should be obvious. Take this self made sick person and put him on a reduced calorie diet...any reduced calorie diet...and low and behold....they will lose weight and all their health markers will improve. No surprise there. Of course Dr Esselestyn's fat patients lose weight and get healthier in the process on his diet....they would do the same on any interventional diet....no surprises there. Thousands of fat sick people have gone on (insert favorite fad) diet and lost weight and health markers improved. And they will live a long and healthy life as long as they stick to any kind of healthy diet and don't revert back to their old couch potato ways of stuffing their pie holes with junk.

It's the calories (insert favorite word). And if his patients had added exercise...the results would be even better no matter what.

There is nothing magical about a high carb starchy diet to supposedly "cure" atherosclerosis.....any reduced calorie diet will accomplish the exact same thing....it's the reduction in calories and the loss of body fat that improves health markers.