23 replies to this topic

[the_apollo]

I am in need of increasing my serotonin-levels to combat a serotonin-deficiency as well as OCD,
and of what i have found out so far, my best option seams to be an SSRI (yeah.. "Best"..), but of what i've read about SSRIs they seam to have horrible side effects,
effects enough for me to reconcider if i really dont have any other options than SSRIs..
But as i dont really know too much about SSRIs and it's real effect on the human mind, i was kinda wondering if anyone here knew more about SSRIs(?), and it's impact on cognitive functioning.
Because it doesnt look like any SSRI have equal inhibiting effect on SERT, if you get what i mean,, like, that its not an equal inhibit reuptake-inhibit effect at all the 5HT-groups..
At liest it doesnt look like it, but i hope that someone here on this amazing forum knows a little more about the subject.

but because i wanted to try figure out a little more for myself, i started to research about the subject and to my surprise, serotonin is much harder to change than it is with Dopamine or Noradrenaline!..
but of what i could piece together, this is a list of drugs or group(s) with Serotonin-agonist or RI properties;

* SSRI (group of) - Reuptake inhibit
* Kanna - Herbal SRI (not much studies of subject though, mostly anecdotal rapports)
* PDE-4 inhibitor (most studies made on Rolipram, suggest that enhancement of cAMP levels have a feedback loop that increase serotonin)
* St. John's Wort - have multible Reuptake inhibit properties, among them serotonin Reuptake inhibiting properties
* SNRI (group of) - Reuptake inhibit of serotonin and NE, may have different actions on serotonin than SSRIs(?)
* MAOI - Well, not the best way to go, but non the less, inhibit MAO-uptake of serotonin
* Aniracetam - have some serotonin-release properties suggested by studies.
* DMAA - Shown to have both Serotonin and NE releasing properties, said to proberbly be caused by the Dopamine-activity.
* TCAs - have serotonin-reuptake inhibit properties, but sometimes with nasty side effects, or so i've read.

I'm kinda desperate, finding out that SSRIs side effects isnt just a little "boo-bo" as described by some who take it, not just a little problems thats easy to handle,,
but cognitive decrease and mental fog? i mean,, the fuq?!..
If an SSRI would have equal reuptake-properties, wouldnt it just have a 100% activity at ALL the 5HT-groups?


Anyway, so my question is; is SSRIs really as bad as it's reported, and does it cause a decrease in mental abilities?
Also; I listed a couple of Serotonin-activity changing drugs and types of (which of any info on, that you could provide would be appreciated), but is there any other way to increase Serotonin?
(And yes, i do know that OCD is not a serotonin problem but a hyperglutamate signaling problem relating fo the Anterior Cingulate cortex, but SSRIs are effective because of its glutamate-modulating properties)
Any help and information is much appreciated, Thank you.

[nupi]

If you are certain that it is a Serotonin issue, a SSRI seems like the most obvious choice. Out of the whole bunch, Escitalopram seems like the most specific one. An SNRI seems like a bad idea if you really want to hit Serotonin only. Personally I can deal with the side effects from Escitalopram so far (in my recollection, Effexor was worse and Wellbutrin is not directly comparable for a number of reasons) but I would wish the fatigue would get a bit less (but I am only on day 7, worst case I will augment it with a stimulant). In the end, the effect/side effects profile is very individual and you will likely have to try for yourself. What usually seems to make or break it is the sexual side effects where I am not very concerned (for a variety of reasons) but others seem to think its the worst thing that ever happened to them...

SJW seems like it affects all monoamines so is unlikely to be very helpful, if you want to go herbal, Bacopa is thought to modulate Serotonin system (it definitely left me with a similar feeling as Escitalopram does) and Rhodiola has mild MAOI (but probably more B than A) influence.

Edit: There is also supplementing 5-HTP but considering the risks around cardiovascular damage I would be very careful.

Edited by nupi, 14 September 2012 - 11:27 AM.

[nowayout]

The serotonin hypothesis for various psychological pathologies has never been proved. In fact, there is a good amount of evidence that it is false.

So if someone is telling you you have a serotonin seficiency, they are basically pulling it out of their ass.

Edited by viveutvivas, 14 September 2012 - 12:43 PM.

[RS3RS]

From personal anecdotal evidence, I do believe you can "feel" the serotonin effects of SJW (at least at first). I took a couple a few months back, and remember walking around smiling and thinking "I'm so freakin' happy!!" all day -- which, if you know my typical downer personality, is very unlike me. It was the same type of feeling (although obviously much, much milder) as after a low dose of MDMA. However, I stopped taking SJW pretty fast. I had some negative side effects, such as optical issues that took a month or two to resolve. After feeling like the pressure in my eye was different, and then doing research to find out SJW has been linked to glaucoma and other issues, I stopped taking it immediately:

I hadn't had any exposure to the sun at this time, either. However, I'm not cautioning you away from it. I did like the effects, and most people can take it without issues. I seem to be one of those people that is very prone to side effects. Just throwing it out there, as if you take it, it's something to be aware of, to avoid long-term damage.

I've taken 5HTP, but never "felt anything" from it. Maybe it did something that was beyond the range of perception, as many supplements do. But for me, for the price, I never purchased more when mine ran out.

Edited by RS3RS, 14 September 2012 - 12:49 PM.

[SATANICAT]

I haven't quite done enough research but I believe that Stablon (Tianeptine) is supposed to be a good (or better) alternative to SSRI's. Also, complexed folate is supposed to help increase the production of serotonin, and as for temporary relief I'd recommend Passion Flower for it's MAO properties.

[health_nutty]

* St. John's Wort - have multible Reuptake inhibit properties, among them serotonin Reuptake inhibiting properties

I'm not usually a believer in on brand over another in a standardized extract, but apparently SJW is the exception. It seem like the ingredient that most standardize for is not the active ingredient (or not the only active ingredient).

I had luck with Perika brand, but do some research and decide for yourself. This is probably your best bet for the first thing to try for depression (and fish oil which you should be taking for health anyways).

[the_apollo]

If you are certain that it is a Serotonin issue, a SSRI seems like the most obvious choice. Out of the whole bunch, Escitalopram seems like the most specific one. An SNRI seems like a bad idea if you really want to hit Serotonin only. Personally I can deal with the side effects from Escitalopram so far (in my recollection, Effexor was worse and Wellbutrin is not directly comparable for a number of reasons) but I would wish the fatigue would get a bit less (but I am only on day 7, worst case I will augment it with a stimulant). In the end, the effect/side effects profile is very individual and you will likely have to try for yourself. What usually seems to make or break it is the sexual side effects where I am not very concerned (for a variety of reasons) but others seem to think its the worst thing that ever happened to them...

SJW seems like it affects all monoamines so is unlikely to be very helpful, if you want to go herbal, Bacopa is thought to modulate Serotonin system (it definitely left me with a similar feeling as Escitalopram does) and Rhodiola has mild MAOI (but probably more B than A) influence.

Edit: There is also supplementing 5-HTP but considering the risks around cardiovascular damage I would be very careful.

I maybe should have mention it i the text, but i also have som ADHD problems which i'm currently are taking methylphenidate for in a time-release form of drug called 'Concerta', 72mg per day (once every morning),
so increasing noradrenaline by an SNRI isn't a problem,
and iv'e actually tried Bacopa, did nothing at all for me.. Neither good, or bad, no increased mood or learning, was a little disappointing for me in that way..

I have read a little more about SSRIs side effects since i posted this topic,, and it seams to me, that the side effects occur because the most SSRIs have higher affinity for the 5HT1A-autoreceptors,
and it causes a decrease in serotonin levels the first 2-4 weeks of the treatment and that the problem with less serotonin stop when a downregulation of the autoreceptors occurs,
(allowing an increase of serotonin in the synapse).
Anyway, it got me thinking; What if i take an 5HT1A autoreceptor antagonist along with an SSRI?, would that stop the SSRIs negative side effects?

[Mikael]

inositol is equally effective as ssris for ocd and with virtually no side-effects. If youre not a responder to inositol youre unlikely to respond to any serotonin-modulating agent. The only downside of inositol is that it may be a little more expensive to chug down 18 grams a day.

[the_apollo]

inositol is equally effective as ssris for ocd and with virtually no side-effects. If youre not a responder to inositol youre unlikely to respond to any serotonin-modulating agent. The only downside of inositol is that it may be a little more expensive to chug down 18 grams a day.

Actually, i am currently using Inositol daily (4gm x2 times/day) and have been doing that for over say 5-6 months now, it does well in decreasing OCD, but does not stop it completely,
higher doses dont do much different.

Of what i've read about Inositol, it works by making Serotonin receptors more sensitive to serotonin, but that doesn't do much if you have a lack of serotonin, (as OCD is said to be caused by)
it kind of works up to a certain point but is still limited by the serotonin-activity already in the brain.
A serotonin-modulating agent on the other side works by blocking activity of SERT and at some point enhance serotonin production (or/and) signalling in the synapses.

[Mikael]

inositol is equally effective as ssris for ocd and with virtually no side-effects. If youre not a responder to inositol youre unlikely to respond to any serotonin-modulating agent. The only downside of inositol is that it may be a little more expensive to chug down 18 grams a day.

Actually, i am currently using Inositol daily (4gm x2 times/day) and have been doing that for over say 5-6 months now, it does well in decreasing OCD, but does not stop it completely,
higher doses dont do much different.

Of what i've read about Inositol, it works by making Serotonin receptors more sensitive to serotonin, but that doesn't do much if you have a lack of serotonin, (as OCD is said to be caused by)
it kind of works up to a certain point but is still limited by the serotonin-activity already in the brain.
A serotonin-modulating agent on the other side works by blocking activity of SERT and at some point enhance serotonin production (or/and) signalling in the synapses.

Actually, there is no synergy between inositol and ssris in treating ocd. According to the few clinical trials done, if one doesnt work the other wont either, and if one works you will have no added benefit of adding the other. Just what ive read but perhaps its worth a try anyhow. In my opinion the idea that ocd is caused by too little serotonin is ridiculously simplified. In my opinion one of the main reasons ssris and inositol help with intrusive thoughts and ocd is that they make avoiding compulsions easier. When you avoid compulsions the bar for obsessive thought x is once more raised. The brain must make an effort for something to reach a conscious level, and every time an ocder commits to a compulsion one is reinforcing the negative habit of telling the brain that this is something to be very much concerned about. And then of course it reappers as thoughts come when thoughts want to, not when we want them to, thus closing the circle.

So lets say the thought "bunny" holds som significant sense of doom for the ocder. Whenever the thought "bunny" pops up the world is going to end unless ritual x is performed. If one keeps performing ritual x one is thus reinforcing the need to look out for "bunny". This is similar to the evolutionary function of looking out for threats on the savannah or wherever. The problem is that this evolutionary function goes overboard and starts interpreting every rock as a potential lion and that one must run away. In the end one cannot run from every rock... And its still possible that one ends up actually mistaking a lion for a rock one day, but that is the possibility every ocder needs to live with. Similarly the possibility that "bunny" means the world is going to end must be faced and accepted. Ocders can have various degrees of bizzareness to their thoughts and some types of ocd are harder as they may seem to hold a significant truthvalue to the ocder (religious or sexual or violent themes in particular), but at its core its about the paradoxical treatment in not trying to remove the negative emotions or thoughts, but to try and face them headon. Asking for more anxiety, asking for more "bunny", etc.

This is not the whole truth but part of it.

[hippocampus]

I don't know what effect does zinc have on serotonin, but it's good against depression, OCD and similar conditions and it works in synergy with SSRIs. And many Americans are deficient in it, so it good to take anyway. 15-30 mg.

[golden1]

15mg methylfolate(activated b-9), 100mg riboflavin(b-2), 100mg thiamine(b-1), 50mg p-5-p(activated b6) are all needed to produce serotonin. I do not know for sure, but I believe when I take supplemental doses of these it certainly has a noticeable very positive effect overall.That and getting enough protein could help a lot.

[Raptor87]

The serotonin hypothesis for various psychological pathologies has never been proved. In fact, there is a good amount of evidence that it is false.

So if someone is telling you you have a serotonin seficiency, they are basically pulling it out of their ass.

Yeah I made a thread on that a few months back.

Personally, I believe that serotonin just makes one content. E.g if we would be harvesting out in nature, we would need a signal that tells us that now we can take it more easy and also cooperate better with our peers because of abundant resources. But hey, that's just my theory. Who knows wtf serotonin does. Last time I checked, it had something to do with bone formation, but that was gut serotonin.

[dear mrclock]

mdma drains your serotonin completely and the after effects of absolute sadness and strong depressions leading to wanting to kill yourself proves that serotonin indeed plays crucial role in depression, no ?

[golden1]

Well MDMA doesn't do that... unless highly abused(Some people I suppose could get after effects when used responsibly, but their serotonin hasn't been completely drained(pretty sure you would die with no serotonin?) and I've not really heard of it ever being of the magnitude of suicidal ideation unless the person dosed very high or often) , however serotonin is much more than contentedness or mood. It's pretty clear it plays a role in perception(vision, hearing, touch/pain, and higher level perceptions such as beauty), hunger, mood, social interaction, anxiety, and tons of other things. You can't pin depression on serotonin really and you can't pin serotonin to being responsible for only one or two things. Same with dopamine and norepinephrine and the brain in general.

[dear mrclock]

i know serotonin plays a vital and enormous role in human physiology and psychology. but there are many subtypes of serotonin, specifically in the brain that some of which can play a significant role in happiness/depression. mdma has been shown again and again to affect serotonin in specific receptors in the brain that are part of the social encouragement, happiness state. i have read few studies done with mdma to map specific serotonin receptors to test for depression or some other dysfunctions associated with serotonin. thats how i tested it myself, i have felt extremely disconect sadness/loneliness after even just few times usage.
this is something im recently thinking about tho, can serotonin be vitally involved in the state of being in love ? im starting to question this idea now.

[golden1]

yes, one way would be that 5ht1a receptors release oxytocin which is for one a bonding hormone.

http://en.wikipedia....r#Endocrinology

5-HT_1A receptor activation induces the secretion of various hormones including cortisol, corticosterone, adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH), oxytocin, prolactin, growth hormone, and β-endorphin.^{[55][56][57][58]} The receptor does not affect vasopressinor renin secretion, unlike the 5-HT₂ receptors.^[55][56] It has been suggested that oxytocin release may contribute to the prosocial, antiaggressive, and anxiolytic properties observed upon activation of the receptor.^[25] β-Endorphin secretion likely contributes to antidepressant, anxiolytic, and analgesic effects.^[59]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxytocin

[dear mrclock]

i see. how can you manipulate this receptor thats not naturally expected ?

[golden1]

http://en.wikipedia..../5HT1A#Agonists

[medievil]

mdma drains your serotonin completely and the after effects of absolute sadness and strong depressions leading to wanting to kill yourself proves that serotonin indeed plays crucial role in depression, no ?

no its more related to downregulation of a variaty of receptors, drugs cause reward trough mu besides.
Acute sero depletion doesnt cause depression, and in my experience i took about 8 120mg mdma tabs every friday and saterday and never felt really depressed, just sa and good mood the next day and monday brainzaps due to hypoactivation of 5HT2C causing minimal epileptic activity.

In my experience sero just covers ocd up so you dont notice it much while stimulants remove it leaving you completely confused how the hell you came to some certain obsession, unable to understand the logic at all and finding it weard.

But i seem to be a unigue case.

yes, one way would be that 5ht1a receptors release oxytocin which is for one a bonding hormone.

http://en.wikipedia....r#Endocrinology

5-HT_1A receptor activation induces the secretion of various hormones including cortisol, corticosterone, adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH), oxytocin, prolactin, growth hormone, and β-endorphin.^{[55][56][57][58]} The receptor does not affect vasopressinor renin secretion, unlike the 5-HT₂ receptors.^[55][56] It has been suggested that oxytocin release may contribute to the prosocial, antiaggressive, and anxiolytic properties observed upon activation of the receptor.^[25] β-Endorphin secretion likely contributes to antidepressant, anxiolytic, and analgesic effects.^[59]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxytocin

Im sure i got excessive oxytocin, in the past i often felt like crying because of the suffering happening in the world and i still feel that its hard to be truly happy if you know that even for example animals get tortured, its mostly gone now tough its rather anoying that much empathy.

mdma drains your serotonin completely and the after effects of absolute sadness and strong depressions leading to wanting to kill yourself proves that serotonin indeed plays crucial role in depression, no ?

It just downregulates receptors, the body can make more quickly enough, after a week of daily useage it still worked fine for me, only after weeks receptor downregulation started kicking in.

Please dont try to take as much mdma as me lol, im a bit crazy at times and it would def fuck other people up.

[medievil]

On the other hand testosterone cycle triggered my shizophrenia, i suppose differened ppl are sensitive to differened neurotoxic damage, its excitoxic and i allways liked mem that protects against that so that must have been a big issue in my brain, never had issues with things that induce oxidative stress.

http://www.longecity...tments-for-ocd/

Anyway about ocd, made a thread about things that help, i know sero is in fashion but we dont allways have to follow that.

Besides before i abused drugs i was terrible at school and i wanted to learn stuff like pharmacology but there was no way id even be able to understand the sero receptors lol, must have had some "good" neurotoxiticy happening, like damaged neurons that inhibit cAMP so in the end i got a ton better at learning stuff, my creativity seemed a ton better too i just dont get it.

Edited by medievil, 06 October 2012 - 05:03 AM.

[nupi]

I am not sure if Serotonin just covers up OCD (though I am, if anything, pure O) - for me it shuts down a lot of the usual commentary going on in my head and definitely reduces anxiety a lot. As OCD is (mostly) an anxiety disorder, Serotonin can definitely help.

Though, TBH, I have only very limited experience with proper stimulants, so it's hard to say what they would do. However, Wellbutrin for one made me more anxious, if anything.

As for SSRI side effects: Escitalopram (generally thought to have the mildest ones) made me incredibly tired whereas so far Cymbalta (which is really an SNRI) seems to have quite mild (slight dry mouth, the usual libido implications). Years back Effexor (the other SNRI on the market) mainly caused me to gain some weight (again, usual libido implications) but other than, I found the side effects easy to deal with on both SNRIs.

Escitalopram alone was painful, if only because of the fatigue (and occasionally, brain fog) it induced.

However, and this is important: after probably having had Dysthmia for years, the mood uplift and anxiolytic effects of my current cross taper from Escitalopram to Cymbalta truly are a breath of fresh air. A similar story years back on Effexor.

Another option would be Bacopa, when I first took it, it definitely had noticeable serotonergic activity, it just did not persist for very long - if you feel that helps, an SSRI might be worth a shot.

Edited by nupi, 06 October 2012 - 07:54 AM.

[medievil]

"a lot of the usual commentary" thats the same as cover up

I mean that amp completely removes that pure o stuff for me, and thinking i had that im as confused as telling a person that has no ocd, its gone and cant understand not relate to those toughts.

Wellbutrin is just a stupid ne releaser, total junk unless you want some energy to get up in the morning.

[Acousticphilosopher]

Magnesium (aside from being damn important in serotonin synthesis) is an NMDA antagonist. Therefore it ought to inhibit excess glutamate activity. THis article ought to give you a better idea of what i mean.
http://george-eby-re...on-anxiety.html