88 replies to this topic

[medievil]

Amphetamine and ritalin are often discussed, i wanted to make a more general thread about all the differened stimulants that are available and each offer unique benefits (simular to my psychedelics thread).

A quick overview:

Amphetamine
Methylphenidate
MPA
Ethylphenidate
Craze
3 fluoroamphetamine
2 fluoromethamphetamine
4 fluoroamphetamine
4 fluoromethcathinone
3 fluoromethcathinone
2 fluoromethcathinone
4 bromomethcathinone (the amphetamine version is higly neurotoxic so caution is adviced, however it appears that beta ketones that bind to vmat and arent releasing agents (atleast methylone compared to mdma) so this may not be a issue with the beta ketone version, its also studied as antidepressant and appears to be a functional reuptake inhibitor.
Desoxypipradol
MDPV
A-PVP
Pentylone

This pretty much are all the functional stimulants currently available, all have unique quality's but also risks (mdpv for example is very addictive for many).

Personally i have the most succes with a combination of desoxypipradol and MDPV, motivates me the most and on this combo i dont have much tendency to abuse them.
Tought this thread would be a good idea as for example the craze thread shows people are interested in alternative stimulants.

[SuperjackDid_]

Which one available to order online ?and Where

[medievil]

They are all available online, do some googling and check the site in safeorscam to find good sources.

I found the following combinations to be synergetic:

Desoxypipradol and MDPV
Desoxypipradol and a-pvp
Desoxypipradol and ethylphenidate
MPA and ethylphenidate

They all have their own benefits, some are better as social stimulants, others focus, others motivation combo's can provide best of both worlds in some cases.

Edited by medievil, 29 November 2012 - 03:42 PM.

[Vieno]

If one stimulant fails to increase dopamine (in any noticeable way), is there any reason to expect another stimulant to work? I have used L-DOPA and methylphenidate with no effects, except nausea. Is there any reason to expect something else like amphetamine to work? Caffeine does keep me awaken.

[lifebuddy]

Available from your friendly local doctor.

[jcc80]

Yes, amphetamine works much better for me than ritalin, l-dopa, or any other dopaminergic I've tried.

[Vieno]

Yes, amphetamine works much better for me than ritalin, l-dopa, or any other dopaminergic I've tried.

I understand, but how fundamental the effect is? You see, I have taken doses of L-DOPA (600mg with green tea extract) and methylphenidate (36mg daily for a week) with absolutely no stimulating effect, so I'm wondering that is it realistic to expect effect from amphetamine in this scenario or does the lack of responsiveness to the less potent stimulants mean that there's something broken with my dopamine system?

[Dissolvedissolve]

It's my understanding that most people report qualitatively very similar experiences from melthylphenidate and amphetamine.

Methylphenidate has NDRI activity, which amphetamine shares (amphetamine is thought to reverse the activity of the DAT). However, amphetamine also seems to act as a releasing agent for dopamine and norepinephrine, which means there's a chance it would work for you even though methylphenidate does not. (And most people using amphetamine for treatment of ADHD report is to be more effective than methylphenidate.)

That said, it's shocking to me that you get no effect whatsoever from methylphenidate - it's a pretty potent stimulant.

[Vieno]

It's my understanding that most people report qualitatively very similar experiences from melthylphenidate and amphetamine.

Methylphenidate has NDRI activity, which amphetamine shares (amphetamine is thought to reverse the activity of the DAT). However, amphetamine also seems to act as a releasing agent for dopamine and norepinephrine, which means there's a chance it would work for you even though methylphenidate does not. (And most people using amphetamine for treatment of ADHD report is to be more effective than methylphenidate.)

That said, it's shocking to me that you get no effect whatsoever from methylphenidate - it's a pretty potent stimulant.

Thanks, informative answer. Yea, no stimulation from methylphenidate or L-DOPA. I might need to give a second try for methylphenidate because it's been a long time and the flu-like side effects were quite strong and possibly masked the stimulating effects. Maybe the side effects remain the same but if I can detect the stimulation that would be good information.

[jcc80]

Well at first I got positive results from methylphenidate, but not that strong, and not very stimulating. This faded over time. Amphetamine is stronger than ritalin ever was for me, and at less than half the dose.

[medievil]

All stimulants are differened and everyone has their preferences, there's a whole list of rc ones for people willing to try others compared to ritalin and amp, im suprised that desoxy with mdpv are my favorites, better then amp for me probably because both are higly selective for dopamine compared to ne wich seems good in my case.

[medievil]

I prefer ethylphenidate to ritalin, it feels alot smoother and seems better for focus and getting things done, it does feel more recreational tough.

MPA is like a light functional version of amphetamine, quite like it too.

[medievil]

If one stimulant fails to increase dopamine (in any noticeable way), is there any reason to expect another stimulant to work? I have used L-DOPA and methylphenidate with no effects, except nausea. Is there any reason to expect something else like amphetamine to work? Caffeine does keep me awaken.

In the past ritalin barely did anything for me while releasers like amp were massively differened, try to give amp a try.

[alecnevsky]

Nice list! (Should keep me busy for some time.) Do any of these have less side effects than adderall (for non ADHD) i.e, mood, dehydration, neurotoxicity in general? I bought Craze (just to make sure I was not missing anything great) -- tried it once so far -- don't think I was missing much in terms of a study aid. First impression: unfocused burst of elation and energy, unlike adderall, it seemed much more physical and emotional than cerebral. Just kind of made me want to party and/or play sports. I am going to try to study on it a few more times but postulate that it's not a cognitive enhancer.

[medievil]

Their neurotoxiticy is mostly unknown as their side effects, most are research chemicals that havent been researched much and can carry unknown risks, take that in mind, if you consider something superior to other stimulants then think about the risk and benefit ratio and then decide wheter continue use.

This also apply's to craze, ppl seemed to look over that except animal wich pointed out the risks.

[alecnevsky]

Right. Shouldn't we try to do some of this cost/benefit analysis here then? I've only taken adderall and it stressed my body out: heart palpitations, dehydration, strange either low or high blood pressure, cold shivers, mood... It's poison in anything above 20mg/12hrs imo.

[Introspecta]

MDPV is supposedly more addicting than Meth. Also the first dose is great. Lasts an hour then you redose and it doesn't work the same but you keep trying to chase that initial effect. Avoid at all costs. Anyone with any addictive traits really should avoid all these but I know you won't.

[medievil]

MDPV is supposedly more addicting than Meth. Also the first dose is great. Lasts an hour then you redose and it doesn't work the same but you keep trying to chase that initial effect. Avoid at all costs. Anyone with any addictive traits really should avoid all these but I know you won't.

Thats true, however personally in combination with desoxypipradol i dont find it very addictive at all (often forget to redose, sometimes just took my morning mdpv dose and then forgot to redose till it was evening) im sure without desoxy it would be differened tough but that combo just works for me.

Also i wonder wheter the low dose needed and cheap cost so everyone has a massive supply causes it to seem more addictive? Also every redose works just as well never noticed any chasing of initial effects, perhaps people that have that should try memantine or somethingfor tolerance. Also that only relates to people trying to get high.

I act far more addictive just using stims like mpa etc, but i know desoxy makes the difference, it has a simular effect with ethylphenidate.

Right. Shouldn't we try to do some of this cost/benefit analysis here then? I've only taken adderall and it stressed my body out: heart palpitations, dehydration, strange either low or high blood pressure, cold shivers, mood... It's poison in anything above 20mg/12hrs imo.

Hmm i never had those side effects with stims, atleast i do get heart palpitations and feel stressed and anxious without benzo's but most ppl tolerate stims without benzo's.

Edited by medievil, 30 November 2012 - 11:26 PM.

[medievil]

One of the goals of my thread is discussing the therapeutic potential of stimulants, in combination with memantine they can work long term for anhedonia, depression, social anxiety and negative symptions in shizophrenia.

Also suprisingly amphetamine's work for parkinson unrelated to their da increase:

Amphetamine-related drugs ameliorate symptoms of Parkinson's


To model Parkinson's disease, researchers bred mice with severe
dopamine deficiencies that displayed rigidity, inhibited motion, and, as
seen here, freezing behavior. (Photo: Caron et al.)

The debilitating effects of Parkinson's disease are well known: muscle
rigidity, impaired movement, and the uncontrollable shaking that makes
even the most mundane activity a challenge. The symptoms result from a
progressive deterioration of neurons, found in the midbrain, that produce
dopamine. With no cure on the horizon, the most common treatment
involves administration of the dopamine precursor, L-DOPA, usually in
pill form. Though symptoms subside at first, this treatment is rendered
ineffective over time.

In a new study reported in the open-access journal PLoS Biology, Tatyana
Sotnikova and colleagues from Duke University create a mouse model
that recapitulates many of the symptoms of Parkinson's disease and use it
to screen potential therapeutic drugs. By eliminating the dopamine
transporter - the protein responsible for recycling the chemical into
neurons - in mice, the authors reduced dopamine levels in the midbrain
by 20-fold. In addition, chemically inhibiting dopamine production in
these mice resulted in essentially unmeasurable levels of the
neurotransmitter, since it could now neither be produced at normal levels
nor be recycled.

The authors tested a number of drugs at various doses and found that in
addition to L-DOPA-related treatments, drugs related to amphetamine
were effective in ameliorating muscle rigidity, tremor, and impaired
movement in these mice. Most effective was
methylenedioxymethamphetamine HCl (MDMA), commonly known as
ecstasy. It has been shown that amphetamines can trigger release of
neurotransmitters such as dopamine, serotonin, and norepinephrine and
cause sudden bursts in neurotransmission, leading to a feeling of
alertness, increased muscular activity, and reduced fatigue. This study,
however, shows that treating mice with MDMA does not increase
dopamine levels; furthermore, treating the mice with drugs related to
serotonin or norepinephrine did not ameliorate the disease's symptoms.
These results suggest that MDMA likely acts through a pathway unrelated
to these common neurotransmitters.

Future work will be required to understand how MDMA was able to
ameliorate the symptoms of Parkinson's in these mice and to assess the
toxicity of MDMA and related compounds in greater detail in the future.
However, this study opens the door to a search for compounds related to
ecstasy, which may provide a more effective treatment in the later stages
of the disease - and hopefully allow patients to perform the simple
functions of everyday life independently again.

###
Citation: Sotnikova TD, Beaulieu JM, Barak LS, Wetsel WC, Caron MG, et
al. (2005) Dopamine-independent locomotor actions of amphetamines in
a novel acute mouse model of Parkinson's disease. PLoS Biol 3(8): e271.

Read more: http://www.drugs-for...a#ixzz2DpLRdy1n

Besides therapeutic use stimulants can be used as performance enhancing agents, increase learning, productivity, wakefullness and more while its debated wheter this is unhealthy i beleive that when not used in excess it wont do any harm, simular to nootropics optimising brainfunction.

[jcc80]

Medievil, which of these do you find superior to amphetamines with regards to motivation, focus, and getting crap done?

I am prescribed vyvanse and it works fairly well, but I'm considering alternatives.

[medievil]

MDPV is by far the best for motivation but cant tolerate it without desoxypipradol as that makes benzo's work (due to my shizo brain only stims that activate nmda enough for increased gaba levels wich benzo's then activate i need the addition of a stim that does that).

MDPV is by far the most addictive and psychosis likely stim tough read bluelight for the trainwrecks, desoxypipradol completely abolish its additiveness for me tough and with benzo's wont get psychotic.

For physical work i found the mpa ethyl combo best, for focus i dont know as my adhd doesnt respond to stimulants.

[medievil]

2FA has been said to be the best amphetamine for focus and productivity.

And many people find desoxypipradol the best for their ADHD.

[Vieno]

How does dextroamphetamine compare to amphetamine in terms of induced euphoria and stimulation? I can possibly legally access dextro and I'm wondering if it's worth pursuing if assuming that the effect of amphetamine is ideal.

[pseudonamed]

So which of these is available legally in the UK? MDPV and amphetamines are illegal in the UK. Are the rest legal?

[B!oN!cSy@PsE]

amphetamine and methylphenidate are not similar. You can say they have similar effects on DA and NE system with different mechanism of action. But just because research has failed to find out other possible cns actions of both methylphenidate and amphetamine, we cant neglect the fact that they must have some other effects on cns, may be on some receptors that are not discovered yet, (after every few years discovery of new receptor/system in brain is made till now) so you cant find out which one works better for you unless you try them both.

[Dissolvedissolve]

amphetamine and methylphenidate are not similar. You can say they have similar effects on DA and NE system with different mechanism of action. But just because research has failed to find out other possible cns actions of both methylphenidate and amphetamine, we cant neglect the fact that they must have some other effects on cns, may be on some receptors that are not discovered yet, (after every few years discovery of new receptor/system in brain is made till now) so you cant find out which one works better for you unless you try them both.

It's important to note that because amphetamine (and presumably, most amphetamine-derivatives) are DA & NE releasing agents, they also cause glutamate release. NDRIs do not have this effect. Medievil is aware of this effect, although I do not believe he has mentioned it here.

It should also be noted that amphetamine (and also methamphetamine and likely other amphetamine derivatives) binds to the TAAR. I do not know the details of TAAR function, as I believe it's been discovered in the last ~10 years and its function is not very well elucidated.

There's also a well-validated difference in safety profile. It's clear enough that high doses of amphetamine are neurotoxic, although sufficiently small doses may be safe or minimally neurotoxic. Methylphenidate has been shown to be non-neurotoxic, at least at low doses, although it may not be perfectly safe at higher doses. It actually reduces amphetamine-induced neurotoxicity when the two are co-administered.

[alexburke]

Ive just recently bought Ethylphenidate and friends and I tried to use it recreationally and went through 2 shipments of it within like 3 weeks (3g).
Its an alright price for how much you get.. its alright for focusing.
I would rather buy something like an amphetamine stimulant thats a research chemical.
Any ideas?

Should I try
4 fluoroamphetamine

Edited by alexburke, 07 February 2013 - 09:12 PM.

[machete234]

2FA has been said to be the best amphetamine for focus and productivity.

And many people find desoxypipradol the best for their ADHD.

Tried it a year ago it is not bad and I guess very amphetamine typical and clean stimulation without much of a comedown unfortunately its not in my vendors stocks anymore only the "meth version" 2-FMA is still available

Should I try
4 fluoroamphetamine

No your best bet would probably be 2FA which is rare now and 2FMA, however when youre in the US theres always the analogue law.
4FA isnt ideal because theres a serotonergic or etactogen component, this makes you love people but not the stuff you want to learn.

Edited by machete234, 08 February 2013 - 02:55 PM.

[Raza]

Good thread, as usual. =)

I've tried barely any RC stims (only Craze, MPA and amphs from that list, and two of those aren't RCs)... but I am looking for one or two more tactical stims to add to my arsenal.

Is there anything..:

- Short-ish acting (<6 hours from ingestion to being able to sleep)
- DA specific (or at least, very low NE - NE based stims give me nasal inflammation, even if I take them orally)
- Affordable by dose

That you can recommend? Two out of three would still be good to know about. And whether it's more pro- social or productivity, although I have use for both.


My experience with Craze is that a scoop is good for 12-ish hours of strong motivation and a lot of physical energy, but not necessary any clear-headedness. I've done good studying, partying and exercising on it, though, when the things it offers were what the situation demanded.

Amphetamine is kind of the gold standard for these things; moderately pro-social, powerfully pro-productivity and all round very potent; my main problem with it is how long it lasts. It seems barely possible to take a small dose as you get up and be ready to fall asleep 16 hours later, at least orally.

My general rule with unknown stims is to preload with Vitamin C, Acetyl Cysteine and Milk Thistle extract for brain/liver antioxidant protection, and to have a quick acting NSAID ready if my head feels too hot or pressured.

Edited by Raza, 08 February 2013 - 03:44 PM.

[medievil]

My general rule for neuroprotection these days is the combination of 4 differened substances with a entirely differened mechanism, for me personally:
Candesartan
NAC
Ginseng
Nefiracetam
Coluracetam

Rather then quercetin with curcumin and resveratrol, i hypothese that much better neuroprotection and beneficial effects can be achieved following this protocol.

Currently im back on street amphetamine, i had a script for dexedrine and ritalin but the combo of both didnt wake me up (i have extreme fatigue without stims at times, sometimes its alot better but those didnt kick me out of it wich they allways did before, quite worrysome as i dont think its tolerance, ive complained about autoimume issues before and now it seems like this is a typical symption in MS, i didnt have this fatigue for more then a year so it also seems to get better and then go to another phase but i cant say anything, perhaps its just braindamage who knows, thing is im getting it checked out now ignore and cover up like i used to. (it randomly started during my testosterone cycle and is unrelated to stim withdrawal, wich obviously doesnt help). It just went to far i was chronically fatigued on massive doses of dexedrine and ritalin togheter, something not right there.

Ive just recently bought Ethylphenidate and friends and I tried to use it recreationally and went through 2 shipments of it within like 3 weeks (3g).
Its an alright price for how much you get.. its alright for focusing.
I would rather buy something like an amphetamine stimulant thats a research chemical.
Any ideas?

Should I try
4 fluoroamphetamine

2 or 3 f(m)a would be your best bet. Amphetamine is a unique stim after greeting it after so long i feel that unique feel again wich no other stim ever gave me.

Edited by medievil, 08 February 2013 - 06:06 PM.