13 replies to this topic

[highchief]

Hello hello,

Here's my intro post:
http://www.longecity...lot-of-reading/

Do you folks have suggestions for replacing dextroamphetamine when taking stim holidays?
I've been on it for 5 weeks and it has changed my life completely for the better. However, I've only gone one full day without taking it, and a few days where I've delayed taking my first dose until late afternoon. It's focus and antidepressant effects are so powerful that going without it is pretty hard, but I understand that taking a day or few off here and there is advised.

I've searched the forum but have yet to found anything to work.
Before I was diagnosed with ADD and before going on meds I tried l-tyrosine at several different doses but the effects were fleeting at best.
I'd rather go with OTC supps, but I'm willing to consider prescription meds too as my doc quite open to listening to my suggestions, I just hope the meds won't be to pricey.
Ideas?

Thanks

[highchief]

A minor update:
I've tried a boatload of OTC supps and noots to no avail in the past.

[▲420MD]

For Pharms, I'd say take an NMDA antagonist daily at the highest dose possible to reduce tolerance, to replace the dexedrine try an ampakine like Provigil or Nuvigil.

As for herbals I'd reccomend Siberian Gingseng, my only uses and successes have been with tea.

[protoject]

I agree with that recommendation for an NMDA antagonist, for example low dose of memantine, however it does come with its own price [any side effects and also it lasts very long]. Other than that my best recommendation would be low dose citicoline as it does upregulate dopamine receptors [found in studies], I find it drastically increases dopamine sensitivity [subjectively]...

maybe consider a long lasting tea such as yerba Mate

[highchief]

For Pharms, I'd say take an NMDA antagonist daily at the highest dose possible to reduce tolerance, to replace the dexedrine try an ampakine like Provigil or Nuvigil.

As for herbals I'd reccomend Siberian Gingseng, my only uses and successes have been with tea.

Thanks. I've been considering suggesting Memantine but I'm undecided on it as of now, I have to do more reading up on it. I'm also under the impression that it is quite expensive. Same for modafinil, expensive as a prescription med? Maybe I could deal with it if I only take it once a week or so.

Do you have a brand/source you could recommend? I've tried siberian ginseng capsules before but they didn't do anything. I'm be willing to try a tea though.

[highchief]

I agree with that recommendation for an NMDA antagonist, for example low dose of memantine, however it does come with its own price [any side effects and also it lasts very long]. Other than that my best recommendation would be low dose citicoline as it does upregulate dopamine receptors [found in studies], I find it drastically increases dopamine sensitivity [subjectively]...

maybe consider a long lasting tea such as yerba Mate

Thanks. How do you usually respond to choline? I've found that I respond negatively to choline, can't even eat many eggs without getting the blues. Funny how at best/worst I used to eat 30 a day. I've read about citicholine here and it has piqued my interest. I might try it, but I hope it doesn't have a negative effect on me. Do you find consistent intake to be of importance or can it be used sporadically on stim holidays? Uridine is also used for the same purpose, yes? I take UMP now at 300mg caps. I also tried TAU but felt like I had an adverse effect.

I could try the tea. Any brands you recommend?

[highchief]

Currently I'm taking, in addition to Dexedrine:

Uridine UMP
Ginkgo biloba for its vasodilatory effects
Lion's mane as someone here mentioned getting sensation back in their lips after nerve damage. I have a similar problem
Magnesium (taurate ran out, malatate on the way)
Biotest Alpha Male (has vitex, eurycoma longifolia, tribulus and forskolin. I had a bottle left, and back in the days this used to provide a mood lift for me)
Inositol (for my OCD habits, though I subsequently found out that it might make ADD worse, so I'm finishing the tub and that'll be it)
Valerian root on occasion for calming myself down

[panax]

Sulbutiamine and N-Acetyl L-Tyrosine are amazing. I have decided to kick dex (been on it for 6 months) because I feel although I have come full circle in realizing why I act in the inattentive ways that got me prescribed in the first place. Sulbutiamine and L-Tyrosine destroy my anxious social inhibitions that make me detach from others and situations as well as making my mind so completely clear that I do not have a single distracting thought.

I actually was kind of freaked out in the car this morning because I could only focus on what was in front of me (sounds stupid for those without ADHD). I had zero urge to produce internal dialog and could not even force myself to go off topic. (This is after taking it for about 3 weeks with 40mg Vyvanse. I am currently tapering off because Vyvanse now, ironically, makes me more ADHD and I think I am beginning to use it as a coping mechanism for the way I behave instead of fixing the problems that I have started.)

If you are looking for a stimulant for ADHD purposes, try those out. If you are looking for a stimulant for more energy and stamina, can't help you there.

[highchief]

Sulbutiamine and N-Acetyl L-Tyrosine are amazing. I have decided to kick dex (been on it for 6 months) because I feel although I have come full circle in realizing why I act in the inattentive ways that got me prescribed in the first place. Sulbutiamine and L-Tyrosine destroy my anxious social inhibitions that make me detach from others and situations as well as making my mind so completely clear that I do not have a single distracting thought.

I actually was kind of freaked out in the car this morning because I could only focus on what was in front of me (sounds stupid for those without ADHD). I had zero urge to produce internal dialog and could not even force myself to go off topic. (This is after taking it for about 3 weeks with 40mg Vyvanse. I am currently tapering off because Vyvanse now, ironically, makes me more ADHD and I think I am beginning to use it as a coping mechanism for the way I behave instead of fixing the problems that I have started.)

If you are looking for a stimulant for ADHD purposes, try those out. If you are looking for a stimulant for more energy and stamina, can't help you there.

Wow interesting, thanks. What kind of doses, timing and brands do you take? Are you ADHD-HI or ADHD-PI? I'm the latter, or if you're into Dr. Amen's work, I'd have Inattentive ADD, Overfocused ADD, and Limbic ADD.
Those are pretty much the reasons I use d-amp for. It doesn't give me energy, it actually makes me calmer in my head and I have no trouble falling asleep on it.

Edited by l-dee, 13 January 2013 - 12:50 PM.

[highchief]

bump bump

[Galaxyshock]

Hordenine may be considered, it's a potent selective MAOB-inhibitor AND noradrenaline-reuptake-inhibitor. So it increases the same neurotransmission (dopamine-noradrenaline-(phenylethylamine)) as your prescription stimulant but through different mechanism. NMDA-antagonism at least with magnesium should be helpful with tolerance and several adaptogens can be useful as add-on for general health, productivity and neurotransmission-protection.

[highchief]

Hordenine may be considered, it's a potent selective MAOB-inhibitor AND noradrenaline-reuptake-inhibitor. So it increases the same neurotransmission (dopamine-noradrenaline-(phenylethylamine)) as your prescription stimulant but through different mechanism. NMDA-antagonism at least with magnesium should be helpful with tolerance and several adaptogens can be useful as add-on for general health, productivity and neurotransmission-protection.

Thanks for the input. Do you have any experiences to describe?
I'm currently reading up more on hordenine, looking at this thread right now:
http://www.longecity...ts-not-to-love/

I'm realizing that the feeling that most bothers me is anxiety from not having things (mostly things in my head) go as I want them to.
D-Amp helps me 1. have things go more the way I want to in my head, and 2. be alright even when things don't go my way.

[ChemCycler]

Sulbutiamine and N-Acetyl L-Tyrosine are amazing. I have decided to kick dex (been on it for 6 months) because I feel although I have come full circle in realizing why I act in the inattentive ways that got me prescribed in the first place. Sulbutiamine and L-Tyrosine destroy my anxious social inhibitions that make me detach from others and situations as well as making my mind so completely clear that I do not have a single distracting thought.

I actually was kind of freaked out in the car this morning because I could only focus on what was in front of me (sounds stupid for those without ADHD). I had zero urge to produce internal dialog and could not even force myself to go off topic. (This is after taking it for about 3 weeks with 40mg Vyvanse. I am currently tapering off because Vyvanse now, ironically, makes me more ADHD and I think I am beginning to use it as a coping mechanism for the way I behave instead of fixing the problems that I have started.)

If you are looking for a stimulant for ADHD purposes, try those out. If you are looking for a stimulant for more energy and stamina, can't help you there.

The problem here is that these will very likely (very very very likely) exhibit cross tolerance with D amphetamine. Not only this, they will also cause tolerance on their own. The doses (frequency) of these substances will have to be increased over time.

As for citicholine. That does sound interesting. I"m still skeptical however. Really the bottom line here is - even if things have some variability in mechanism of action, if they either increase dopamine availability and at some point "tickle" the nucleus accumbens, this is were they will converge and tolerance will occur. This is where tolerance needs to be prevented.

It was posted that citicholine increases dopamine recepter density. I also know however that this subsance increases dopamine levels so I'm not sure that it would not also contribute to desensitizing the nucleus accumbens. Would be interesting to see more reports on this.

Edited by ChemCycler, 21 April 2013 - 06:00 PM.

[highchief]

Sulbutiamine and N-Acetyl L-Tyrosine are amazing. I have decided to kick dex (been on it for 6 months) because I feel although I have come full circle in realizing why I act in the inattentive ways that got me prescribed in the first place. Sulbutiamine and L-Tyrosine destroy my anxious social inhibitions that make me detach from others and situations as well as making my mind so completely clear that I do not have a single distracting thought.

I actually was kind of freaked out in the car this morning because I could only focus on what was in front of me (sounds stupid for those without ADHD). I had zero urge to produce internal dialog and could not even force myself to go off topic. (This is after taking it for about 3 weeks with 40mg Vyvanse. I am currently tapering off because Vyvanse now, ironically, makes me more ADHD and I think I am beginning to use it as a coping mechanism for the way I behave instead of fixing the problems that I have started.)

If you are looking for a stimulant for ADHD purposes, try those out. If you are looking for a stimulant for more energy and stamina, can't help you there.

The problem here is that these will very likely (very very very likely) exhibit cross tolerance with D amphetamine. Not only this, they will also cause tolerance on their own. The doses (frequency) of these substances will have to be increased over time.

As for citicholine. That does sound interesting. I"m still skeptical however. Really the bottom line here is - even if things have some variability in mechanism of action, if they either increase dopamine availability and at some point "tickle" the nucleus accumbens, this is were they will converge and tolerance will occur. This is where tolerance needs to be prevented.

It was posted that citicholine increases dopamine recepter density. I also know however that this subsance increases dopamine levels so I'm not sure that it would not also contribute to desensitizing the nucleus accumbens. Would be interesting to see more reports on this.

I tried the NALT x sulbutiamine combo with various doses and timing. I noticed some subtle effects from sulbutiamine but nothing noteworthy. NALT didn't seem to do anything. Might have helped me sleep a little better when I tried it at night but then again I sleep pretty well anyway.

I also recently added CDP choline. Unfortunately my reaction to it seems about the same as to anything else with choline: I get dim mooded, a little depressed, and very irritated very easily. Seems even lecithin oil and eggs have this kind of an effect on me. I hate the feeling of getting irritated, feels Like I have no control over my wits.