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My ADD Stack in Development

add adhd sct stack fog anxiety concentration motivation

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#271 Nootmeup

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 06:37 AM

Glad to have you back GOTB, you want to hear something funny........, I started taking Oxiracetam two months ago just because it was in your stack lolol and guess what.... it sucked. 

I did however like the edition of the D3 3000 iu's and some other stuff, I take nowadays cuz of you. I still havent tried Babacobia < spelling or INtuive

 

L-Theanine is epic, I really notice it when I do  take it and when I don't, in stressful situations i.e work , with l-thenine and a little coffee, key word "little" it can make a huge difference.

I take about 600 mg of sun l-theanine a day mayebe Ill try a higher dose tomorrow for kicks per Ultras post

 

I quit the HUP-A it really did kick ass for word recall but it made me feel strange but my vocabulary did go insane. I was using words right away that I havent used in years it was insane, no noots can do that, moda, racitams, noopept,ginko,vino, you name it  none.....yes they will improve memory but thats simple. I think HUP-A must specifically stimulate the part of the brain that controls vocabulary.

 

 Memetine hmmmmm..... and theres a lot of talk about it. I kinda like my current secret stack right now tho, anyways that my update. been using a lot more magnizuim at night and zinc too. GOTTA CRUSH those NMDA bastards that distract my brain so tastefully.

Hey taking mag and zinc at night is good for testosterone too. I used to work out and here and there and they called it ZMA.....anyways I dont care about that anymore...I dont even buy protien.....but this zinc and mag is making me wake up with mad boners.....i cant even sleep in cuz i sleep on my stomach dammit. 

 

keep doing what your are doing peeps, you too ULTRA your awsome i love when you go on wild tangents and weird rabbit holes......lololololol dont listen to GOTB about keeping on track jk GOTB it is important and your a genius 



#272 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 11:32 PM

Just got a crazy idea here - how about combining Fasoracetam and Memantine, in small doses? What would the results be? Faso is primarily an agonist of the metabotropic network of glutamate-receptors, mGluR, while Memantine is primarily an antagonist of the NMDA glutamate-receptors.

 

Now, which receptors did Faso work on, again? Because if it works on these receptors, then it might actually stack with Mem:

 mGluR2, mGluR3, mGluR4, mGluR6, mGluR7, mGluR8 ( group II-III) - because all of these metabotropic receptors? They *decrease* NMDA-activity.

 

It's only the mGluR1 and mGluR5 -receptors that increase NMDA-activity.

 

Incidentally, the same receptors ( group II & III), does not only inhibit NMDA-activity, they also inhibit cAMP. And us ADD-ers do indeed want to inhibit both of those.

 

From Wikigenes, regarding Fasoracetam:
 

 

These findings suggest that the inhibitory action of NS-105 on adenylyl cyclase activity is mediated through group II and group III mGlu receptor subclasses while the facilitatory action is dependent on the group I mGlu receptor subclass [3].

 

 

As I understand it, Adenylate cyclase is involved in the creation of cAMP, correct? And what the findings suggest, is that Faso inhibits cAMP by agonising the Group II and III mGluR-receptors, yeah?

 

Well then... that sounds rather nice. On the OTHER hand, agonising the group 1 -receptors as well, does NOT sound nice. Since that means Faso would both inhibit and activate the NMDA-receptors, at the same time??

 

On the other hand... if you smack some memantine in there... maybe that won't be a problem? What do you think, guys? Is there evidence suggesting Memantine and Fasoracetam COULD STACK?


Edited by Stinkorninjor, 22 June 2014 - 11:36 PM.


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#273 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 12:03 AM

On another, related note - I'd like to bring up Kynurenic acid again - since this study shows that Memantine and 7-chloro-kynurenic acid antagonizes the same NMDA-receptors:

http://www.wikigenes.../e/8724036.html

 

The relevant quote:
 

"The release elicited by NMDA plus gp120 was prevented by the classical NMDA receptor antagonists dizocilpine or 7-chloro-kynurenic acid, as well as by Memantine."

 

 

This was oddly enough in an experiment to investigate the efficacy of Memantine as an HIV-treatment, I believe.

 

This study, which also links Kynurenic acid to NMDA, glutamate and Dopamine, has some interesting info:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17573079

 

Once again... Kynurenic acid is involved with the NMDA-receptors, and actually seems to give off similar effects to Ketamine, which also antagonizes NMDA's, just like Memantine.

 

Maybe we're all looking at this the wrong way? Maybe it's this simple acid, that we are deficient in? And not dopamine-production, or over-active NMDA-receptors - maybe we should just supplement with Kynurenic acid and be done with it?

I would really like some feedback on this one, guys - I think there's at least plenty of evidence to warrant a look into synthesized kynurenic acid, instead of other more novel NMDA-antagonists ( Nitromemantine), or novel Glutamate-agonists-to-NMDA-antagonists ( Fasoracetam).

 

For gods sakes, lads! It really could be this simple! We might not need to 'eff about with these other meds!



#274 Nootmeup

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 10:28 PM

All this talk about Memantine is going to make me purchase some this thread kinda died..... Where is everyone

#275 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 02:20 AM

Memantine is definitely worth a buy. Here, check out this thread on Addforums - where a med-student shows off his journey with memantine, and then others join in, and give their own thoughts on it.

 

http://www.addforums...?t=80317&page=4

 

What they report is a nearly crystalline sense of clarity, of cohesive thoughts. There is very little talk on the subject of motivation tho', mostly about improved organisational and attentive skills.

But hey, dude, what do you think about my Kynurenic Acid -theory? =) That we are all a sort of reverse-schizophreniacs, and supplementing with the same substance that makes them ill, could in theory be beneficial to us?
 


Edited by Stinkorninjor, 24 June 2014 - 02:38 AM.


#276 Duke318

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 02:35 AM

A lot of theory being talked about here...

 

You don't know that there is a glutamate excess in the brain.  It's just speculation.  I actually got a plasma amino acid test done, and my aspartic acid and glutamate were actually too LOW, the contrary to what I expected.  That still doesn't show what's going on in the brain, but nothing really can.

 

I tried memantine.  All it did was temporarily decrease my IQ by 20 points, give me brain fog, and extra anxiety.  It also didn't do squat for my adderall tolerance.  Stablon also did nothing for me.  A lot of internet hype.

 

I've moved away from obsessing about psychopharmacology after getting no results with various meds.  I think the answers lie more in the methylation cycle, nutrigenomics, nutrition, HPA axis dysfunction, and thyroid function.  Biotoxins are also implicated in causing various forms of HPA dysfunction and psychiatric symptoms.  My advice is to save your money ordering meds from illegal pharmacies and instead invest in a genetic profile from 23andme and a comprehensive spectracell nutrition profile. 


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#277 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 02:57 AM

A lot of theory being talked about here...

 

You don't know that there is a glutamate excess in the brain.  It's just speculation.  I actually got a plasma amino acid test done, and my aspartic acid and glutamate were actually too LOW, the contrary to what I expected.  That still doesn't show what's going on in the brain, but nothing really can.

 

I tried memantine.  All it did was temporarily decrease my IQ by 20 points, give me brain fog, and extra anxiety.  It also didn't do squat for my adderall tolerance.  Stablon also did nothing for me.  A lot of internet hype.

 

I've moved away from obsessing about psychopharmacology after getting no results with various meds.  I think the answers lie more in the methylation cycle, nutrigenomics, nutrition, HPA axis dysfunction, and thyroid function.  Biotoxins are also implicated in causing various forms of HPA dysfunction and psychiatric symptoms.  My advice is to save your money ordering meds from illegal pharmacies and instead invest in a genetic profile from 23andme and a comprehensive spectracell nutrition profile. 

 

What you're saying is certainly correct, we don't have much actual proper data on the glutamate-levels in ADHD, and how big the activity of the NMDA-receptors are, and if they differ from the mainline population.

 

I was actually thinking how great it would be to head up a study of glutamate, NMDA-activity, and Kynurenic Acid -levels in ADHD, the other day. I would love to truly know about this one, whether it's a valid lead or not.
 

Still, if what you're saying is correct, then I suppose Fasoracetam might actually be a cool thing, since that lowers activity on the NMDA-receptors, but appears to increase activity on other Glutamate-receptors. And that is the idea that Dr Hakonarsson and the human genome project is following right now.

 

As for your suggestion of 23andme, that's certainly a good idea - but I was under the impression that 23andme no longer supplies the analysis of the data they collect...? Meaning, you get your test back, and the test is now more or less useless, since you have no analysis of it anyway. So you then have to hire yet another company - to do a analysis, yes?

 

Btw, maybe I missed it, but do you have ADD as well, Duke? If so, may I ask what you are doing to treat it? Have you found some combined treatments that help you?



#278 Duke318

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 03:13 AM

 

A lot of theory being talked about here...

 

You don't know that there is a glutamate excess in the brain.  It's just speculation.  I actually got a plasma amino acid test done, and my aspartic acid and glutamate were actually too LOW, the contrary to what I expected.  That still doesn't show what's going on in the brain, but nothing really can.

 

I tried memantine.  All it did was temporarily decrease my IQ by 20 points, give me brain fog, and extra anxiety.  It also didn't do squat for my adderall tolerance.  Stablon also did nothing for me.  A lot of internet hype.

 

I've moved away from obsessing about psychopharmacology after getting no results with various meds.  I think the answers lie more in the methylation cycle, nutrigenomics, nutrition, HPA axis dysfunction, and thyroid function.  Biotoxins are also implicated in causing various forms of HPA dysfunction and psychiatric symptoms.  My advice is to save your money ordering meds from illegal pharmacies and instead invest in a genetic profile from 23andme and a comprehensive spectracell nutrition profile. 

 

What you're saying is certainly correct, we don't have much actual proper data on the glutamate-levels in ADHD, and how big the activity of the NMDA-receptors are, and if they differ from the mainline population.

 

I was actually thinking how great it would be to head up a study of glutamate, NMDA-activity, and Kynurenic Acid -levels in ADHD, the other day. I would love to truly know about this one, whether it's a valid lead or not.
 

Still, if what you're saying is correct, then I suppose Fasoracetam might actually be a cool thing, since that lowers activity on the NMDA-receptors, but appears to increase activity on other Glutamate-receptors. And that is the idea that Dr Hakonarsson and the human genome project is following right now.

 

As for your suggestion of 23andme, that's certainly a good idea - but I was under the impression that 23andme no longer supplies the analysis of the data they collect...? Meaning, you get your test back, and the test is now more or less useless, since you have no analysis of it anyway. So you then have to hire yet another company - to do a analysis, yes?

 

Btw, maybe I missed it, but do you have ADD as well, Duke? If so, may I ask what you are doing to treat it? Have you found some combined treatments that help you?

 

 

I should also be clear that my situation was a rare one, but it is definitely possible.  That's the most important thing, we must never assume that everyone has a glutamate issue (just like modern psychiatry is obsessed with the serotonin theory).

 

23andMe has discontinued its interpretation, but you can get the raw data interpreted at websites like www.livewello.com and www.geneticgenie.org

 

I learned a LOT from my genetic profile.  There were markers for B12 deficiency all over my profile, I also learned that i have the MAO-B SNP, among others that would lead to lower dopamine.  I haven't learned enough about this stuff yet, but I intend to.  Be wary of a lot of so-called "methylation experts" out there, this stuff is still really new and I don't think many people have a great understanding of it yet (especially doctors).  The two leading personalities on it are Dr. Amy Yasko and Dr. Ben Lynch, and they each have their different camps of followers.  I believe there is a LOT to be learned in this field of medicine, but it is very, very new.

 

I do have ADD, and struggle with cognitive dissonance, memory, motivation, being distracted, mood, anxiety, depression, among other things.  I've tried many different methods of treatment for my symptoms.  I've also come to the conclusion that long-term daily stimulant use is an issue.  Tolerance and the stress on the adrenals became an issue for me.
 



#279 Ultravioletbllc

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 04:58 AM

I'm working on a write up

Found several ADHD specific molecules we haven't talked about mainly due too lack of availability but my ppl who I do business with for chem synth can now provide them
Will report back soon

On that and efficacy ( it's very positive) of d-phenylalanine with deprenyl and with low dose (for someone with ADHD ) dexamphetamine

#280 Ultravioletbllc

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 05:07 AM

Nootmeup 600 mgs is high dose around here but I dose around 600-900 bi daily because I'm looking into the gluts mine blockade it provides it's a weak nmda antagonist as well but at our doses the effect will reign


Another tidbit of serious interest too all and I was near shocked too learn this

On DLPA lpa



"

L-Phenylalanine is an antagonist at α2δ Ca2+ calcium channels with a Ki of 980 nM.[9] At higher doses, this may play a role in its analgesic and antidepressant properties.

In the brain, L-phenylalanine is a competitive antagonist at the glycine binding site of NMDA receptor[10] and at the glutamate binding site of AMPA receptor.[11] At the glycine binding site of NMDA receptor L-phenylalanine has an apparent equilibrium dissociation constant (KB) of 573 µM estimated by Schild regression[12] which is considerably lower than brain L-phenylalanine concentration observed in untreated human phenylketonuria.[13] L-Phenylalanine also inhibits neurotransmitter release at glutamatergic synapses in hippocampus and cortex with IC50 of 980 µM, a brain concentration seen in classical phenylketonuria, whereas D-phenylalanine has a significantly smaller effect.[11]"
Very very very useful and interesting tidbit of esoteric info

#281 Nootmeup

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 07:14 PM

Stink you maybe onto something with the Knyuric Acid, it is closely tied to Tryptophen which causes most non-adders to have our symptoms: sleepy, no motivation, fatigue.
Scientists decreased levels of Knyuric Acid in mice and there cognition went up which is great, however, perhaps,of little use to us since we are not certain the mice had ADD.

Hurry up with the write up Ultra! I'm interested

I for one am not bothered by speculation, that is in fact what this thread and many forums are made for...... Now this begs the question how far down the rabbit hole do we go before we stop, we could always be at the brink of a solution and not even know it.
Great write up Duke, you've illustrated many great points many of which I have never heard or thought about. Although do not dismiss psycopharmacology, if it wasn't for psycopharmacology I would be to lazy to type this and my symptoms would be greatly exasterbabted.
You brought up methylation, thyroid and nutrition. I always put nutrition at the top of the list... I do Not take the classic ADHD meds ie Ritalin Adderall, Dexadren ect. Though I have taken everyone one of them in the past/ when groaning up, first and foremost if you take any RX med or nootropic and your nutrition/ sleep is not in sync with what works best for your body. Any pharmacological suppliment/ vitamin will work 40% .... That's if your lucky.... It may not work at all! till your diet is up to par.
Now ,I had no idea what methylation was till today, but I did a fast search and the root cause of methylation inhibition was cellular inflamation. I also finally know why methacobalamin might work ;) and more reason to maybe take folic acid.
Now many doctors believe that a higher EPA to DHA ration reduces cellular inflamation. Which is possibly why fish oil is one of the only proven, OTC supps to help. ....Possibly


One thing that I'm suggesting we do is dig further into the study of schizophrenia.


And DO what exasterbates their symptoms!

Ihave to dive Into that myself, much reading will be required. I did read a quick article that stated Marijuana was bad for schizophrenics which maybe does give credence to Stinks theory of cannabasnoids and hemp. I also read that schizophrenics at least 80% of them smoke tobacco. Is this because they are self medicating or.... Food for thought.
Look forward to further discussions and perhaps a non medicated solution.

#282 Duke318

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 07:43 PM

I think ultimately, optimal functioning requires everything working together holistically.  Gut health, nutrition, methylation cycle, neurotransmitters, adrenals, thyroid, hypothalamus...all of these things need to be functioning optimally for good psychiatric health.

 

http://www.heartfixe...ethyl Cycle.htm

 

This site will give you an intro to MTHFR defects, methylation, and how it affects the neurotransmitters. 

 

I would also be cautious with fish oil, a lot of it is oxidized and not fresh, so it would actually put you in a pro-inflammatory state.  Also, I actually had the experience of having such a strict diet that I overdid it with the EPA and Omega-3, and a fatty acid profile indicated that I was actually deficient in alpha linoleic acid and my saturated fats, and my EPA was off the charts high.  I ended up adding in coconut oil, hemp and chia seeds, and those helped a lot.

 

I also found that the common assumption that everyone with ADHD is deficient in Magnesium was not the case for me.  My magnesium levels were actually OK, but it was actually manganese that was my problem.  I also found out through 23andMe that I had an SOD2 gene, which predisposed me to manganese deficiency when under chronic stress.  Manganese is important for dopamine, adrenal functioning, and also metabolism of fatty acids.  My triglycerides have been low for most of my life...it will be interesting to see if they finally come up after correcting the manganese deficiency.  These are things you can't just assume though, you really need proper lab testing to confirm an actual deficiency.  Another thing to consider is that any time you supplement with any mineral, it usually has an antagonistic mineral that gets depleted.  For instance, high dose magnesium will deplete manganese, and they also can't be taken at the same time because they compete for absorption.

 

I've also noticed a trend on the internet, someone proclaims one specific supplement to be a miracle cure that cured all their symptoms.  The thing is, maybe that one specific person actually had a deficiency, or just by sheer luck that's what they needed most at that point in time.  The thing to understand is that their experience does not necessarily apply to everyone else.  That's why you get a lot of other people trying that persons discovery with no results.  Supplementation really needs to be done based on a persons genetics, as well as proper lab testing through a doctor.



#283 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 10:02 PM

@Duke: Genetic testing is definitely the future. I was against it before, but I've absolutely come around. However, it needs to be done freely, and the results must be utterly confidential, especially to the authorities.

 

Anybody know if those sites that help you analyse the data from 23andme charge you for their services? I vaguer it could get a bit expensive, but maybe not too big of a difference.

 

 

@Noot: That's definitely what I'm thinkin' too! =) We need to look at the medications that make Schizophreniacs feel worse, or have no effect on them. That's an interesting side-note about Schizophreniacs and cannabis - the reason why Hemp would be good for us may not have all that much to do with that tho'. I think Schizoids probably get worse on Cannabis because it has MAO-inhibiting properties, which makes their dopamine rise in the long run, which is very bad for them. The dumbening effects of Cannabis on cognition makes this effect more or less useless for practical ADD -use tho'.

 

The reason why Hemp and Cannabigerol could work, is because Cannabigerol has similar properties to Guanfacin, which is an ADHD and blood-pressure drug in the U.S.A. So it's not really the CNS-actions of hemp that I'm curious about, more the other facets of chemicals it's got loaded.


Edited by Stinkorninjor, 24 June 2014 - 10:03 PM.


#284 Ultravioletbllc

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 11:40 PM

Nadh has always worked for a majority of symptoms
And it performed theme in two friends and my mother (all with various ADHD afflictions )

And the result Is always the same , it's almost as effective as adderall at ameriolarating most ADHD symptoms but tolerance is a bitch

I just got some rutin too use at a higher then normal dosage as I have some ideas that components may possibly be a nice augmentation but we will see


............ Really happy right now with picamilon, deprenyl, agmatine , deplin , d-pa ( with the occasional DLPA ) , betaine , got in with my zinc plus brainshield trial running now , magnesium asporotate, niacinamide, dmae , fish oil ,huperazine a, acetyl l carnitine arginate * micro dose 5mg daily nadh , rutin , vinpocetine, forshkolin , l theanine , and about 14 caps left of BioPQQ wich I don't use monthly ( nor do I use forshkolin zinc** brainshield nadh rutin or mg asporotate normally )

*= I am very careful with dosing and agmatine is never taken within 7 hours of alcat arginate

**as I dropped magnesium l threonate for a month and replaced with zinc and brainshield
It was important too replace it with another nmda inhibitor (zinc has proven efficacy in slightly (33%) improving CHILDREN ADHD SYMPTOMS and that's good enough for me ) And brainshield is 300 mg of GASTRODIN just google it and while it has no clear use for ADHD other then he implied efficiency possibility of the blockade of glutamate

#285 Nootmeup

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 02:21 AM

@ Duke: I couldn't agree more with diet coming first- if I have any gluten and dairy but more specially dairy, my stack is almost non-benificial altogether, speaking of coconut oil... Does anyone use MCT oil? I use it... For ADD,but it's mechanism of action and the role it plays could be a whole other thread all together, so we can dive further into that another time.
Agreed about minerals canceling out one another too much mag depletes calcium, too much zinc cancels out our copper levels. It's a very fine line.now as far as doing nutritional panels to see if your body has inadequate levels of a certain mineral/ vitamine.
I've spoken with various doctors and maybe they are being dishonest with me due to lazyness or ignorance, but their concensious is that nutritional blood test are never very accurate 1. Because certain minerals need to be measured at certain times of the day.2 .the test themselves are very inaccurate and can be off by 30 to 40% even with they are the most presise controlled studies 3. The body is constantly changing at differnt points of the day even, using some of the vitamines and minerals in the process. I.e b vitamines for energy, amino acids for muscle rebuilding/ the brain,choline for neutotransmiters; also it depends on the duration of which you have been taking something.
Which is maybe why I'm not opposed to turning myself into a human gunii pig and seeing what works. Speaking of gut symptoms I read that probiotics are very benificial for people like us.... And that l- glutamine not only a great amino acid for bodybuilding but it also cleans the system of harmful emzimes that exasterbate ADD.

@Stinkninjok: you are Awsome. I truely believe we are near the answer all we have to do is maintain the brainstorming session. I did read today that vitamine b6 more specifically p5p is benificial with magnesium. It has a direct connection with dopamine and noradrenialin. Not good for schizophrenics. But possibly amazing for us. Today I took a high dose of B6 we'll see if positive results appear over time.

@ Ultra: are you taking l- phylaline? < spelling.Your stack almost looks like mine.love that you have alcar and vinopoctine in there, hell yea!the Hup- A not so much.... It was impressive, when I spoke I sounded brilliant, maybe I'll give it another go someday.
On a side note I've giving Cito aka CDP choline another shot. Hoping to grow my dendrite dopamine receptor densities, till their so big a schitsophernic would be jealous of them.

#286 Nootmeup

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 05:56 PM

Hey guys one more question..... What is the concensious of Resversatrol in terms of our brain chemistry? There's a lot of conflicting information whether it is a benifit or detriment to people with ADD.

#287 Major Legend

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 11:23 PM

I have tried hundreds of different supplements and drugs over the past 6-7 years, and nothing has come close to chewing 2 to 4mg of nicotine for executive function/working memory, unfortunately as I discovered in the other thread this leads to generating class 1 carcinogen (though we don't know whether its dangerous amounts or not), and probably still way safer than smoking cigarettes. The great thing about nicotine is that unlike adderall or ritalin is that its not a roller coaster ride (the horrific amphetamine/ritalin comedown), yes its addictive but you won't get lethargic, depressed, mopey, suicidal, when the stimulant effects wear off, it also has a notable nootropic effect that other stimulants do not have. 

 

On top of this Nicotine can be used to reinforce reward pathways on whatever else you are doing (including nicotine of course...), by using this nootropic on activities you wish you reinforce will make you look forward to these activities in the future.

 

I try to reserve it to use 2-3 times a week, and take vitamin C with it to remove the nitrite in my stomach which is what may cause the carcinogens to form, again it gives me the focus of a successful neurotypical, you know those guys who just have great natural focus, it also doesn't remove any creativity which adderall does, nor is it jitterry and forced like caffeine.

 

A lot of people will say Nicotine is horrifically addictive, but in my experience it doesn't have the withdrawal of amphetamine nor caffeine, or hell even benzos/alchohol, and all those are very addictive anyways as well as any other stimulant, e.g. cocaine, methamphetamine, and so on. The efficacy of these other stimulants are also limited in duration, 3 hours for dopamine reuptake inhibitor and about 6 hours for aderall, meth lasts 3 days or so, caffeine about 3 hours, but weak. With nicotine you have control over duration. (edit: because of the gum allowing you to control exactly how much nicotine and when, altering your focus depending on environment, I've had no issue with continual usage of up to 48 hours with no notable come downs or loss in effects, though I would say at the highest dosages (say above 4 mg continuously) it starts feeling wonky after about 7-8 hours, still no come down but don't think its good to proceed more than that.

 

I am very saddened upon the discovery that nicotine is a highly likely carcinogen, it is my holy grail so far. I have sunk to unimaginable lows to try to treat my ADHD (edit: taking meth, parkinson drugs like deprently, cabergoline etc), but again nothing has worked in the same way, I also don't seem to grow tolerance to it's nootropic/concentration effects, but then I don't take this daily.

 

I am also PRETTY CONVINCED ALOT of people take up smoking pretty much as a form of subconcious self medication, the world is loud, noisy and competitive these days, alot of people just don't have the genetics to filter out the noise (lack of prefrontal cortex function). 

 

This makes me VERY interested in WAY-317,538 and AR-R17779, there is a company that sells the chemical called newmind I think, but I am not sure how they procured it. The stimulation of the alpha-7-nicotinic receptor without the carcinogenic properties of nicotine is of HUGE interest to people with ADHD I think. Of course it remains to be seen whether Nicotine is just acting on that receptor, but I think the potential of those chemicals are huge.


Edited by Major Legend, 25 June 2014 - 11:43 PM.


#288 Major Legend

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 12:01 AM

Lately, because of the limitation of nicotine, i've experimented with other methods. One of them is TDCS.

 

For now the conclusion is stimulation of the FP2 (prefrontal cortex) is completely a waste of time, at best subjectively I placebo like experience a short increase in mathematical ability. The effects also felt pretty transient and went away within an hour of stimulation.

 

I have experimented in a university's neurofeedback/brain device interface system as well, so far I've been unable to naturally match anything chemically induced ( a cup of coffee increased my activity far more than practice could) - I currently don't see how it is different from just buying call of duty and playing that to train concentration, call me an asshat, but its really boring to look at the equivalent of atari for anything over 2 to 40 seconds. Its unfortunately I could not spend more time with it.

 

Though I must admit the promise of that sort of technology is very immense.



#289 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 11:14 AM

Just read a bit about Resveratrol, and it appears to have effects on gluthathione and as an anti-oxidant. The bio-availability is pretty bad tho', unless you shoot it straight into your veins.

I vaguer the positive reports on ADD and ADHD with it, stems from comorbid Aspergers-syndrome, which could in theory be alleviated by some forms of anti-oxidants. I.e, they took Resveratrol and noticed that they got better at socializing, and then assumed it was because it improved their ADD.

 

I'm pretty good at socializing tho', and my ASD-score, although slightly elevated from the norm, is too low to be considered a separate diagnosis, so to me, this seems like a dead-end. But for those of you that may have an ASD-score closer to the disabling level, might want to keep looking into it.

 

 

@Major : Interesting. Nicotine has been brought up before, and there is indeed some testing being done, to find nicotine-like medication, to treat ADHD.

 

Tobacco in itself is kind of a tricky thing tho', because Nicotine is far from the only active substance. There's harman and norharman in there as well, potent MAOI's, that increase the addiction. It's believed that the interaction between the MAOI's, the other substances, and the Nicotine in itself, that accounts for the addictive effects. In theory... nicotine-gum could actually be a LOT less addictive.

When reading up on it, it does appear to increase dopamine, serotonine, and norepinephrine simultaneously, so results-wise, it actually looks like a pretty good drug. I am a bit vary of the norepinephrine and epinephrine -release tho', those are generally UN-pleasant effects of drugs. On the other hand, I can't find info on the exact ratios released, and it may well be a very small amount, hence not being a significant problem.

 

I'll be doing some more read-up on nicotine, but not too bad as of right now - at least not in pure form, away from MAOI's and the like.

 

Have you tried an Intuniv/Modafinil combo tho? I still swear by the theoretical stacking of this, but so few people seems to have tried it. I'd give it a go if I were you. Although it's tricky to get it prescribed in the EU, admittedly.


 



#290 Nootmeup

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 03:05 AM

I'm a believer in nicotine! I've read plenty of studies to back it up..... Many people say it's one of the best nootropics out there.

New topic!! Anti- stress/ anxiety and ADD
Does anyone take Ashwangonda or Bacopa? I think GOTBOx used to take ashwaganda but I could be mistaken...... I've been having some one the most stressful anxiety driven bar none weeks that I've ever had. There been a lot of perminant changes/ Layoffs...So I was looking into these.... Does anyone know how it will react to people with our brain chemisty? This thread died.... So I'm keeping it alive!!! Nootmeup Out!!!!

#291 chris106

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 11:39 AM

I've been using Ashwagandha (Sensoril extract) for quite some tme, mainly to take the edge of stimulants like Modafinil or caffeine. It works quite well for that, but when taken on it's own it sometimes seems too sedating. Plus, it needs to be cycled after some time - preferably with L-Theanine, from my anecdotal experience.

It's definetely worth a try. L-Theanine and Ashwagandha are pretty much the only anti-stress agents I've kept throughout varying stacks over the past 2 years, L-Taurine being a close third ( It's very usefull for lowering blood pressure if one accidentally overdoes it with some stims - not a long term solution of course)

 

Also I think people being concerned over Ashwagandha being a GABAergic are overblowing the problem - since its effect is very mild. I've never had any harsh withdrawl problems. I slightly notice for a few days when I quit it - but by no stretch of the imagination is it even near the same league as horrible withdrawl producing GABAergics like Phenibut or the like...


Edited by chris106, 29 June 2014 - 11:42 AM.

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#292 Nootmeup

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 08:28 PM

Chris106 I really appreciate your very informative and complete post.....looks like ashwaganda will be good.... Now how about Bacopa? Anyone toyed with it? Can't wait to mix these with Moda and a little DMAE

#293 chipdouglas

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 07:14 PM

Such a shame that this thread died - it was one of the most interesting thread about ADHD. I wonder what happened with GetOutOfBox ?



#294 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 08:37 AM

Such a shame that this thread died - it was one of the most interesting thread about ADHD. I wonder what happened with GetOutOfBox ?

 

He moved to Reddit - r/nootropics, to be exact. I think he's mostly left this stuff behind these days though - he came to an impasse, like most SCT-ers do. I'm still at it though, even though I'm not very active either. There's always another combo out there...



#295 GetOutOfBox

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 08:59 PM

I'm still around but very much more intermittent now. I sent a big PM to chipdouglas covering the broadstrokes of the last few years of my research, that I'll post here if there's interest.
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#296 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 06:11 AM

I'm still around but very much more intermittent now. I sent a big PM to chipdouglas covering the broadstrokes of the last few years of my research, that I'll post here if there's interest.

 

Definitely an interest! = ) I'm quite curious what your current conclusions are.
 



#297 GetOutOfBox

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 02:59 PM

I've revised a lot of my philosophy towards ADHD over the years. First of all - I've come to believe that it's probably caused by a huge range of different genetic issues and that it's fruitless to obsess about which one you have until genetic analysis gets a tad better (it's pretty good atm - if you get tested 3 times and average the results you can be fairly confident in them, but there's a huge chance that it'll be difficult to pin down exactly what phenotype is at play due to how many a person could have at once and the complex interactions between them. It's likely that current mainstream ADHD medication works universally whether you have ADHD or not - that it increases executive function, or more specifically, executive oversight. Reduces automatic thinking, shifting the balance more towards ordered thinking. Of course lower doses of dopaminergics also universally enhance working memory to some extent similar to caffeine's benefits on the general populace - it turns out a reasonable stimulant is going to have pro-motivation, pro-stamina, pro-cognitive effects on just about everyone if you get the dose curve right (too little results in unobservable changes, too much introduces too much "noise" into the neural networks - think of it like amplifying an audio signal - yeah you can hear it easier but the background noise can pollute the quality to the extent that you gained no advantage or have even more trouble understanding).

 

So with this in mind, I believe that methylphenidate is definitely the best go-to adhd medication. I specifically recommend a low-dose regimen, and that you do NOT ramp up the dose to maintain effects. Accept that the pro-motivation effects (originating from reward system stimulation) will fade rapidly unless you're one of the lucky few with a phenotype that hampers downregulation. Fortunately, the pro-working memory/executive function effects are form an entirely different part of the brain, the prefrontal cortext, which just so happens to not adjust receptor densities as much as the various reward circuits do. Pro-memory/self-inhibition increases should persist.

 

Secondly, I've really undergone a paradigm shift where I've become much more focussed on the psychology of ADHD and related conditions (depression, anxiety, etc). Specifically learned helplessness (i.e focus on medication as the solution completely ignoring/giving up on changing the self/beliefs/thought patterns), self-defeating behaviors (self-indulging coping habits such as procrastination despite knowing it's the wrong choice in the moment), negative internal messaging (a highly critical internal vs nurturing/encouraging internal voice), and motivation styles (push vs pull strategy of self-motivation - using fear/deadline pressure as motivation instead of various methods of immediate/baby-step type motivation). These are all areas I believe are actually far more important than the underlying neurological deficits, as evidenced by the hordes of people who have tried tons of ADHD medications with consistent failure to improve overall despite "feeling better" at times. A book that really got me looking down this road was "The Now Habit" - really really really helpful for dealing with procrastination. Changed my life - that's not to say I immediately started getting better, but I found an understanding (the real truth was deep down I had a behavioral issue - plenty of people have severe and I mean severe cognitive handicaps like Downs Syndrome etc and yet they still can achieve their dreams - then there's all of those ADHD people out there that are simultaneously very smart - we just tend to be very bad at dealing with our issues and those around us growing up often have limited insight into what we struggle with internally) and the journey really began from that point.

 

As for supplements, I've become a big believer that nutrition should be the focus before you even begin to consider herbal/chemical supplements. And the #1 way you should correct nutrition is with diet, falling back to supplements only to fill in the gaps. In terms of diet, we're talking making sure you get the RDA for protein, healthy fats, and insoluble+soluble fiber. After that, proper mineral intake (especially magnesium+zinc) is key too, particularly for those on stimulants due to the excessive peeing/salts loss they cause. When supplementing, avoid all supplements that megadose, and aim to take doses that are fairly close to the RDA as opposed to 3000x times it. That means not taking 2 grams of vitamin c for example, but instead just 100-250 mg.

 

The #1 supplement I recommend is Vitamin D. Yes very obvious but us Canadians literally need it. It struck me once that I basically never get real sun exposure. Most of the year I am heavily clothed, it's cloudy and I'm working indoors and inside of a car all of the time. How the hell does anybody get enough??? So 4000 IU is what I recommend, and combine it with cycles of Vitamin K to ensure you have sufficient to properly utilize the Vitamin D (K deficiency combined with supplemental Vitamin D can be bad for the health due to erratic calcium transport in the body).

 

After that I also recommend taurine 500 mg. Occasional fish oil is also probably good but it can actually cause issues. I do believe that dosing pure oil isn't the best way to get it into the body and for some can actually cause brain fog due to irritating the digestive tract (the digestive tract is very tied into the brain). This brings me to another big area I've found to be of interest - digestive health. After reading a ton of research I am very convinced that many cognitive issues can originate or be aggravated by gut issues. That being said, I skipped the probiotic pill fad as I believe they are shit quality 99% of the time (a powder pill just isn't the best way to transplant healthy organisms) - probiotic foods are way better. Kefir, saurkraut, kimchi etc (they all must be raw/unpasteurized to be of benefit).

 

Finally there are 3 lifestyle changes I believe are also KEY to improving mental wellness for literally anybody and I have noticed without doubt the largest benefits from these:

 

1. Improving sleep. I spent years sleeping 5,6,7 hours a night at varying times, this is bad for most people - most people really do need about 8 hours of sleep for the best cognitive function, and some studies indicate that even a half hour less can cause measurable deficits. Even worse, the feeling of tiredness is relative to what you're used to and is not an accurate gauge often. Strategies to improve sleep include: orange tinted wrap-around glasses at night to totally block the disrupting blue/green-tinged light, eating a fat heavy meal towards the end of the day (but not right before bed), avoiding sugar 3 hours before sleep, going for walks before bed. I do not recommend supplementing melatonin - I noticed reduced sleep quality and other issues while taking it, and I do believe the current methods of supplementing produce unnatural blood-concentration trends throughout the night that might not be aligned with sleep cycles/might induce unnatural cycles. If you do try it, take very very low doses (300 mcg)

 

2. Cardio exercise. Doesn't have to be crazy workout regimen, I found I preferred hitting a treadmill for 20 minutes at a time (not counting 5 min walking warm up and cool down). If you do not like the environment of a gym, I cannot recommend strongly enough just how much it is worth buying a treadmill yourself - plop that thing in front of your TV and you'll have no problem being regular with it. Exercise bikes are a good affordable version, though treadmills can be super affordable used since a lot of people just want to get rid of them due to how much space they waste when not being used regularly. Look no further than this excellent wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia...ysical_exercise) for convincing that this is worth pushing yourself to do. Literally remodels your brain to be better all around. It really doesn't take much commitment, just a 20 min jogging session 3 times a week will give you benefits you will seriously feel. Do it more than that for even more benefits.

 

3. Saunas. This is a huge for me because they help a heap with anxiety/depression. I really enjoy bringing a book, they are seriously so very relaxing. There are a slew of physiological effects they have mediated by triggering and calibrating the stress response in a similar manner as exercise does, but purely via heat rather than exercises benefits which are more mediated by a negative-energy/glucose state caused by high cardio activity. Check this essay written by fitness doc Rhonda Patrick (https://www.foundmyf...auna-report.pdf), it cites tons of research. They are so easy to get into, if you think of them as uncomfortable you're probably thinking of the ones with people pouring water on the rocks - those are way too intense in my opinion - dry heat is more ideal because you can tolerate much higher temperatures for much longer. I recommend starting with 10 minute sessions at 70-80 celcius (yes celsius - remember that with low humidity in dry saunas  that doesn't feel as hot as it sounds due to poor conductance through dry air) - working your way up to 20 minute sessions at 90C over a period of a few weeks or so. The best way to get into saunas regularly is to find an apartment or condo you can rent where the gym room has one - it's more common than you'd think. If not, check out gyms for saunas, even if you don't want to use the gym itself it's often still cheaper to get the membership just for the sauna than what you'd pay to go to a dedicated sauna place (typically charging spa prices).

 

TL;DR The order you should approach your problems in: A) Psychology (read "The Now Habit" first) B) Lifestyle (sleep, diet, exercise) C) supplements filling gaps in diet D) a core group of supps you've researched that help with certain issues you feel you need a bit of extra help on. Anxiety is probably the easiest to treat with supplements as it has a fairly consistent neurological cause, whereas depression and ADHD both have a huge variety of extremely different causes at play producing similar symptoms. Do not take any supplements prone to tolerance/addiction - i.e you should be afraid of any magic fixes like Phenibut. Just not worth adding another future problem to the list lol! Also big warning that doesn't get talked about enough - TONS of supplements (mainly herbal) interact with liver enzymes responsible for metabolizing drugs like caffeine or amphetamine. So if you're taking any non-dietary supps (anything aside from vitamins, minerals etc), look up if there are drug interactions. Sometimes you even have to first lookup the enzyme that metabolizes the medication you're taking, then google that enzyme and the supplement you're curious about.

 

Hope this has been of help - I feel for you, it can really be hard sometimes can't it, but I hope you can feel the optimism I've gained over the years and begin feeling it yourself - always remember just how fortunate we really are compared to just how bad it really could be. There are guys like this, out there simply fighting through their handicaps without getting stuck looking for magic pills to fix their problems - we can be like them too :)


Edited by GetOutOfBox, 18 June 2019 - 02:59 PM.

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#298 bosharpe

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 09:33 PM

 

Hope this has been of help - I feel for you, it can really be hard sometimes can't it, but I hope you can feel the optimism I've gained over the years and begin feeling it yourself - always remember just how fortunate we really are compared to just how bad it really could be. There are guys like this, out there simply fighting through their handicaps without getting stuck looking for magic pills to fix their problems - we can be like them too :)

 

So massively helpful you have no idea. Going to get tested (hopefully) for ADD this coming Thursday, at 33 years old. Never diagnosed before. Just thought I had terrible behaviour issues, was impulsive and extremely anxious because of my lack of discipline, and emotional troubles. Now I've made a huge concerted effort in self-improvement (Regular acting lessons, diet, weekly therapy and journaling hours a day), over the past 2 years I can see so clearly now it's not those things.  



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#299 jack black

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Posted 23 June 2019 - 02:41 AM

GetOutOfBox, thanks for the update!

before you left in 2014, you spoke of memantine a lot.  have you done any trials with that or other anti-NMDA?



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