27 replies to this topic

[Heh]

I was taking 3g Niacin (B3) for some kinda electronic harassment OCD Schizophrenia type issue, but then stopped because it raised liver enzymes, and shot my uric acid levels through the roof. Then I heard that Pantothenic Acid (B5) protects the liver and helps keep uric acid levels down. This gave me an idea, so I decided to try to find the ratios of the b-vitamins that are needed in order to have everything function properly. Anyone know the proper ratios?

For now I decided to just go with the RDA for each vitamin and use that to determine what the amounts should be. What do you think about me taking this much of the b-vitamins?


Thiamine 250mg
R-5-P 250mg
Niacin 3000mg
B5 1000mg
P-5-P 250mg
Biotin 6mg
Inositol 4500mg
Folate 75mg
PABA 1000mg
Choline 4500mg
B12 0.45mg

TMG 1000mg (to get DMG which is a substitute for B15)

I'm also adding some other things to help these along:

PureWay-C 3000mg
Magnesium L-Threonate 2000mg
OptiZinc 60mg
Calcium-AEP 500mg
Krill Oil 1500mg

OrthoCore 2/6

Vitamin D-3 5000IU
MK-7 90mcg

Resveratrol 500mg
Astaxanthin 9mg

My plan is to take these daily with a protein shake. It seems I lose the HGH increasing benefits of Niacin if I add fat to the equation, and b-vitamins seem to work well with amino acids, so I've decided to just use a protein shake at night. The other vitamins and supplements I use I'll take at some other time during the day.

Thoughts on what I'm doing? Anything seem missing? Anything dangerous or not needed? Does Vitamin C have to be taken at the same time as Niacin, or is the morning/night separation good enough?

[renfr]

How much time are you planning to do that?
Take in consideration that some vitamins such as B1 have a very long half life.
Though B1 has almost no toxicity, too much can cause insomnia, palpitations and rapid heartbeat when accumulated overtime.

[Heh]

Indefinitely, but at least a few months.

[niner]

Thoughts on what I'm doing? Anything seem missing? Anything dangerous or not needed? Does Vitamin C have to be taken at the same time as Niacin, or is the morning/night separation good enough?

Those are really huge doses. The ratios in the multi are based on preventing deficiency, which is quite different than using them at large pharmacological doses. I think the odds of hurting yourself, perhaps badly, are pretty high if you follow this plan.

When you say that you're taking three grams of niacin, is it nicotinic acid (actual niacin), or is it niacinamide, which is sometimes (incorrectly) called niacin? If you are taking real niacin, is it in a slow-release form, or instant release? Do you get a lot of flushing?

We could probably do a lot more to help you if you could tell us exactly what your diagnosis is.

[nameless]

Those doses are way too high.

For niacin, if using a sustained/slow dose formulation, I believe it can increase the chances of liver issues. Instant release should be safer, although you'll be much more prone to a flush. That is assuming it's real niacin. Something like Niaspan (slow release, prescription), may be a bit safer than some OTC slow release versions, as I believe it doesn't take forever to get absorbed.

As for the other stuff... seems too much to me. Folic acid = possible cancer risk -- although I did read a forum post by someone yesterday with a study that showed it may be safe (at normal doses). Choline = possible CVD risk. 60mg zinc long term will probably throw off your zinc-copper balance, and can cause lipid issues. And make sure you are getting your D3 serum levels tested if taking that much ... really doubt you'll need 5K/daily. I'm not big on some of those other things you listed either, but the above is what stood out to me.

Edit: Just noticed Magnesium L-Threonate 2000mg. That isn't elemental, is it? I'm not fond of that form anyway, but 2g elemental of any magnesium will probably end up causing major digestive issues -- you'll spend all of your time in the bathroom.

Edited by nameless, 28 January 2013 - 07:34 PM.

[Heh]

Thoughts on what I'm doing? Anything seem missing? Anything dangerous or not needed? Does Vitamin C have to be taken at the same time as Niacin, or is the morning/night separation good enough?

Those are really huge doses. The ratios in the multi are based on preventing deficiency, which is quite different than using them at large pharmacological doses. I think the odds of hurting yourself, perhaps badly, are pretty high if you follow this plan.

When you say that you're taking three grams of niacin, is it nicotinic acid (actual niacin), or is it niacinamide, which is sometimes (incorrectly) called niacin? If you are taking real niacin, is it in a slow-release form, or instant release? Do you get a lot of flushing?

We could probably do a lot more to help you if you could tell us exactly what your diagnosis is.

I'm taking regular niacin (crystallized instant release). 144mg elemental from 2000mg Magnesium L-Threonate.

I don't have any diagnosis, and I'm fairly confident that I'm being (electronically?) harassed, but I'm trying some supplements anyway to see if they'll help. Here's some of what I'm experiencing:

- Repetitive, stupid, torturous, intrusive, annoying, and distressing thoughts
- Inability to think clearly, think quickly, or learn new things (and constantly having my thoughts or short-term memory "wiped")
- Out of control but directed anger (trying to get me to do something stupid like break the laptop I'm using, break down the bedroom door, etc)
- Uncontrollable panicky urges to do things (yell, delete old posts, rip my lips off, etc)
- Physical ailments (sometimes difficult urination, strange feces, muscle shaking/spasms, eyes drifting around like I'm cock-eyed, low libido, uncomfortable sensation down left leg, back, and arm)

- Seeing something different each time I look at a picture/video/face
- Creativity is dead
- Intermittently hearing voices
- Seemingly foreign pictures being forced in where I would normally daydream/visualize that add to the harassment/distraction
- Dreams that do not seem to be my own and that continue the harassment
- Inability to remember dreams, even with B6 and Magnesium supplementation
- Difficulty sleeping

I've been to the Psych Ward twice and the ER four times, but that didn't help. As a matter of fact, they tried to make it all worse-- which let me further know there could be some external source (voice-2-skull?) causing these problems.

Edited by Joel, 28 January 2013 - 07:51 PM.

[niner]

These are classic symptoms of schizophrenia. You could try searching the forums, particularly the brain forums here, to see if anyone has found things that work, but I don't think that schizophrenia yields very well to self-management. There are some pharmaceuticals that are pretty effective, although there are usually side effects to be dealt with. If I were having these symptoms, I'd ask my doctor to refer me to a good psychiatrist, and make an appointment.

I hope that you feel better soon.

[Spinlock]

I took a multivitamin with lots of vitamin B. It made me feel hyperactive and brain fogged after a few days. My guess is you will probably have to back off this stack shortly.

[Guardian4981]

The only B vitamin I find does not seem to cause any apparent negative sides at higher doses is B5.

[zorba990]

Also symptoms of parasitic or other brain toxicity lile metal poisonong. Get checked for both. Do a palp test for appendix inflammation. B6 large doses will cause neuropathy. Id stop taking everything and get under the care of a health professional. Sometimes self diagnosis can be damgerous you may end up with a psychotic episode or worse. Please get help

[Heh]

I've already eliminated other options and narrowed down the possible causes of this problem, so what about the (electronic?) harassment, mind control, HAARP, direct energy weapon BS? How do I get tested and treated for that?

Edited by Joel, 28 February 2013 - 08:28 PM.

[zorba990]

Why are you so important that multi billion dollar programs would be being used to 'harass' you? Think it through.

[Heh]

Oh spare me! I'm not that important, but it didn't seem to stop these idiots from running scared and from seeking revenge by doing this to me. Also, from what I've read, it seems anyone (and given the idiot that likely did this to me, I mean ANYONE) with the right connections can have this done to someone.

Edited by Joel, 28 February 2013 - 10:29 PM.

[niner]

Joel, you have paranoid schizophrenia. You need to see a psychiatrist. That's the way to make the harassment stop.

[Heh]

I've already seen a Psychiatrist (I've been hospitalized against my will, twice), but here I am. I was forced to take the crappy, side-effect ridden, cognition/life destroying, "I'd rather go insane than take this" medication and they didn't work, and not only that, supplements, even those that had an effect on me in the past, have no effect on me now.

Everywhere I go everyone says I have some form of Schizophrenia and that I need therapy and need to see a Psychiatrist, but then the Psychiatrists just repeat this same garbage you idiots say and other things I already know. Absolutely worthless. No solutions that work. So, obviously the way out was trying to find some supplements that worked for Schizophrenia, etc, even though I don't think I have it, but nothing I've tried does anything. But again, the strange thing is that supplements (I took for other reasons) that have worked for me in the past do absolutely nothing now.

If this isn't some form of (electronic?) harassment or some sort of problem caused by someone else, then I don't know what is.

The idiots that did this to me need to be found and have their ass handed to them, and someone needs to figure out how to actually make this all end. But it seems the name of the game is doing everything possible to keep it all going while making excuses to make it seem as though they give a shit, but their hands are tied. I can't believe these idiots get away with doing this, and that everyone just nods their heads falling for their bullshit.

Edited by Joel, 01 March 2013 - 03:21 PM.

[Bron]

I don't think supplements will help. I know inositol is touted to treat schizophrenia but I am not so sure about the efficacy:

CSF inositol in schizophrenia and high-dose inositol treatment of schizophrenia.

Levine J, Goldberger I, Rapaport A, Schwartz M, Schield C, Elizur A, Belmaker RH, Shapiro J, Agam G.

Source

Abarbanel Mental Health Center, Bat Yam, Israel.

Abstract

Inositol is a key metabolite in the phosphatidylinositol cycle, which is a second messenger system for serotonin-2 receptors that have been implicated in the pathophysiology of schizophrenia. Cerebrospinal fluid inositol levels were measured in 20 schizophrenic patients and 19 age- and sex-matched controls and no difference was found. However, the patients were all neuroleptic-treated. A controlled double-blind crossover trial of 12 g daily of inositol for a month in 12 anergic schizophrenic patients, twice the dose given before in schizophrenia, did not show any beneficial effects. However, the number of patients studied was small and the length of time of inositol administration may not have been sufficient.

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/7894259

I concur with niner Joel.

I think you try to stay away from internet gurus and conspiracy forums and just try to put a bit of trust in your doctor Joel. I know it can be tough but I wish you the best.

[niner]

I've already seen a Psychiatrist (I've been hospitalized against my will, twice), but here I am. I was forced to take the crappy, side-effect ridden, cognition/life destroying, "I'd rather go insane than take this" medication and they didn't work, and not only that, supplements, even those that had an effect on me in the past, have no effect on me now.

Well, it sounds like you are between a rock and a hard place... I wish the options were better. How many meds did you try? It's pretty common with psych meds to have to try different drugs and juggle doses before you find something that works ok with acceptable side effects. Have you tried any of the psych forums on the net? There are probably places with a lot more expertise in your condition than we have here.

[majkinetor]

I don't think that protocol is actually that harmful like others think. You also probably should take more of vitamin C and in multiple doses.

You could restore B3 but instant release with that dose. Vitamin A in the form of retynol would regenerate liver, and maybe some NAC to help it do its job. Vitamin B6 could cause neuropathy with huge dose but that is also far from certain although it might be irreversible AFAIK. Keep it <= 100mg.

I didn't look into proprietary things you mentioned tho, only vitamins you specified.

All in all, you should make a pause from time to time, but any negative effects would probably take years to develop if they do, and comparing safety with pharmaceuticals in that domain is just ridiculous.

[Heh]

As far as the b-vitamins are concerned, I decided on a Co-Enzymated B-50 Complex along with 1g B3 (instant release) and 500mg B5. I also take 1g Vitamin C to go along with the B3, and 400mg Magnesium (the amino acid chelated version). The real winner here was identifying the need for more B5. Once I started taking 500mg my elevated levels of uric acid and liver enzymes (both due to 1g B3) went back to normal.

[majkinetor]

Once I started taking 500mg [B5] my elevated levels of uric acid and liver enzymes (both due to 1g B3) went back to normal.

Vitamin C controls uric acid levels. You should use more of it only in powder form. See http://orthomolecula...v20n04-p237.pdf for dosing, although I suggest 4x2 - 4x4 g per day.

Liver enzymes were probably due to sustained release B3. Also solvable with C, NAC, A.

[Heh]

Once I started taking 500mg [B5] my elevated levels of uric acid and liver enzymes (both due to 1g B3) went back to normal.

Vitamin C controls uric acid levels. You should use more of it only in powder form. See http://orthomolecula...v20n04-p237.pdf for dosing, although I suggest 4x2 - 4x4 g per day.

Liver enzymes were probably due to sustained release B3. Also solvable with C, NAC, A.

Yea, I also take 1g Vitamin C, but that alone wasn't doing the job. Adding B5 did the trick. I've only ever taken the instant release form of niacin.

[majkinetor]

1g isn't even enough for many healthy people. You should determine your bowel tolerance but I guess your dose is at least 10 times higher. You may also try different C forms, and yes, keep the carbs at minimum.

Edited by majkinetor, 13 May 2013 - 05:09 PM.

[Heh]

1g isn't even enough for many healthy people. You should determine your bowel tolerance but I guess your dose is at least 10 times higher. You may also try different C forms, and yes, keep the carbs at minimum.

Why don't you think that's enough? What should I expect if I increase my dosage? B3 is the only reason I take 1g vitamin C rather than 250mg.

Edited by Joel, 13 May 2013 - 09:01 PM.

[majkinetor]

You should try it for some period, half year for instance to see if it makes a difference, given the apparent lack of toxicity. You might improve your liver, and you can achieve better control of your uric acid levels For instance, Hoffer prescribed 1g tid (http://www.orthomole...hizophrenia.php), but i think double that is worth trying.

[Godot]

Joel, you mentioned in your other thread that a YouTube video had convinced you that psychotherapy could not work for you. Could you post the link to that video?

If electronic transmissions are truly being broadcast into your brain, then how do you figure supplements could help?

In that case, you'd need to build a Faraday cage to get some relief. If it were me, I'd build it around the bed. Here are instructions http://snallabolaget.com/?page_id=1102

[niner]

Wow, you must be getting a horrible flush with 1 gram of IR niacin. I'm taking 500mg of sustained release niacin twice a day, and I get flushes pretty regularly. Some of them are pretty annoying. I'm taking it to suppress lp(a). I'd really prefer not to take it. It raises blood sugar, as one issue. It seems to be my best option, though.

[Heh]

Wow, you must be getting a horrible flush with 1 gram of IR niacin. I'm taking 500mg of sustained release niacin twice a day, and I get flushes pretty regularly. Some of them are pretty annoying. I'm taking it to suppress lp(a). I'd really prefer not to take it. It raises blood sugar, as one issue. It seems to be my best option, though.

I get flushes and I actually enjoy them. Nice and warm. I hope they aren't harmful. In the beginning (I started Niacin last September actually) the flush was terrible.

Joel, you mentioned in your other thread that a YouTube video had convinced you that psychotherapy could not work for you. Could you post the link to that video?

If electronic transmissions are truly being broadcast into your brain, then how do you figure supplements could help?

In that case, you'd need to build a Faraday cage to get some relief. If it were me, I'd build it around the bed. Here are instructions http://snallabolaget.com/?page_id=1102

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjjaXhp8xwU

I'm not arguing against its effectiveness, I'm just saying the techniques are ones I already know or have tried without success. I didn't really think the supplements/anti-psychotics would help, but I guess some part of me thought Abilify and Niacin would work. They haven't, though.

Edited by Joel, 14 May 2013 - 06:20 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

Wow, you must be getting a horrible flush with 1 gram of IR niacin. I'm taking 500mg of sustained release niacin twice a day, and I get flushes pretty regularly. Some of them are pretty annoying. I'm taking it to suppress lp(a). I'd really prefer not to take it. It raises blood sugar, as one issue. It seems to be my best option, though.

I once took 3 g niacin a day in three doses, and I'd experience a skin flush every once in a while, sometimes more than once a day. Now I take 2 g niacin + 2 g C in the morning and I never get a flush at all. Taking it all at once seemed to eliminate flushing, at least for me (not that I minded it, but I got tired of people thinking I had a sunburn).