21 replies to this topic

[thesearch4nzt48]

I get tested twice a year for vitamin and mineral deficiencies and I never have any. I eat healthy and maintain a balanced diet without the use of a vitamin and mineral supplement. However, people still tell me that I need one... Why? What's the point?

[Tom_]

You don't. However in the field of life extent ion and nootropics the body can often utilize extra mins and nuits in conjunction with other sups/meds to increase various metabolic reactions.

[Kevnzworld]

Perhaps you don't . There is a difference between optimal levels and non deficient ones though. The RDA for vitamin C is enough so that you won't get scurvy. That amount isn't necessarily the biological optimal amount of C.
You may get your blood tested and have it show no deficiency in folate, yet you may have an elevated homocysteine level which more folate would reduce.
Have you had your vitamin D level checked? Most people are low. It's difficult to ingest enough magnesium unless you drink a lot of mineralized water.
I consider my diet to be a healthy one, yet I still supplement.

[Dorian Grey]

All will become clear as you age...

My mom stuffed supplements down all her kids when we were young. Never felt any effect.

Now that I'm in my 50's:

If I don't supplement Vitamin-C, my gums bleed when I brush my teeth.
If I don't supplement Vitamin B-Complex, I tend to crash and burn energy-wise after lunch at work.
If I don't supplement ALCAR, my brain gets foggy and I notice "senior moments" increase dramatically.
If I don't supplement FOS prebiotic, my back and bones ache worse and I really begin to feel my age.
If I don't supplement Mag-Citrate, my PVC's become truly bothersome at night.
If I don't supplement IP6, and/or Quercetin, my iron levels creep up out of optimal range (ferritin into triple digits).

When I DO supplement these things, I feel young again, and tend to forget I'm over half a Century old!

If you're young, and supplements do nothing for you, then don't bother taking them; but when you start getting old and fatigued, creaky and achy and your brain doesn't work quite like it used to... Try to remember at least one thing... Supplements can help!

Edited by synesthesia, 29 March 2013 - 02:51 AM.

[thesearch4nzt48]

Maybe you guys are right. Although when I took a mutivitamin/mineral supplement, I didn't feel any different even though it was promised to me that I would shortly after swallowing the first pill. I also bought something for stress which was mostly/entirely B vitamins and all it did was turn my pee neon.

My little theory is that simply buying something makes people feel better. Then there's also the added bonus of believing that something will work (placebo effect) vs it actually working.

By the way, I recently spent over two grand on cognitive enhancers. The PS is only 20% and it's yellow which makes me think that it's tainted. I really enjoyed kava kava. Phenibut worked very well at a lower dose the first time I took it. Increasing the dose didn't work as well for some reason. Piracetam felt like a placebo but that could be because I have adrenal gland exhaustion from drinking too much coffee over a prolonged period of time. Hopefully there isn't any permanent damage to my thyroid. Basically, list a nootropic, and I probably have it haha.

One more thing. Does Phenibut act on glutamate receptors? I know that piracetam does and it can cause excitotoxicity but from my understanding you can prevent that by taking lithium orotate. Unfortunately, that's one of the few things I didn't get!

[joelcairo]

This sounds like a straw man argument. Somebody promised that you'd would feel better shortly after swallowing your first multivitamin? Really?? That's just not the way it works, especially for a young person. You may NEVER feel any different. A multi is for making sure your body has the basic tools to minimize low-level damage that accumulates gradually over the course of decades.

Besides, not everyone eats healthy all the time and gets tested twice a year for a spectrum of vitamin and mineral deficiencies. In fact almost nobody does both of those things. So it's possible a multi in particular would be of less benefit to you, but that doesn't give you the right to judge the rest of the world as a bunch of saps spending good money on placebos.

Edited by joelcairo, 29 March 2013 - 05:20 AM.

[Tom_]

I think I've said it thrice in less than 24 hours. Adrenal fatigue does not exist. AT ALL.

There is no evidence for it or its treatment and in fact there is no evidence the phenomenon exists.

[Kevnzworld]

I think I've said it thrice in less than 24 hours. Adrenal fatigue does not exist. AT ALL.

There is no evidence for it or its treatment and in fact there is no evidence the phenomenon exists.

The term is shorthand for hypothalamic- pituitary - adrenal axis impairment or dysregulation. It is thought to contribute to CFS and fibromyalgia like symptoms. My DHEA levels decline when im under stress, so I supplement. People with elevated cortisol can take phosphytidyl serine. Sometimes supplemental cortisol is prescribed as it was for my GF who had a fibromyalgia /CFS like condition.
Adrenal fatigue is a naturopathic term, not an allopathic one.

ADRENAL FATIGUE
Adrenal fatigue sets in from your adrenal glands being overworked to support your body's hormonal needs. In addition to DHEA, your adrenal glands produce cortisol and adrenaline. Both hormones are produced at higher rates during times of intense stress. Adrenaline is the fight-or-flight hormone that increases your heart rate and provides energy to get you out of dangerous situations. Cortisol is another stress hormone that is produced during times of high stress. Your adrenal glands become fatigued by chronic stress, poor nutrition and yo-yo dieting, as stated by Pick. Eventually, your adrenals can't manufacture DHEA to balance out all the cortisol and adrenaline to provide hormonal balance.

http://www.livestron...drenal-fatigue/
http://www.jad-journ...e/S0165-0327(98)00169-4/abstract

" Nutrients and Botanicals for Treatment of Stress:
Adrenal Fatigue, Neurotransmitter Imbalance, Anxiety, and Restless Sleep
http://www.biogaba.c...cals_stress.pdf

Evidence for and Pathophysiologic Implications of Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Adrenal Axis Dysregulation in Fibromyalgia and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
" Results of that work are consistent with the view that patients with CFS have a reduction of HPA axis activity due, in part, to impaired central nervous system drive."
http://onlinelibrary...enticated=false

Edited by Kevnzworld, 29 March 2013 - 04:32 PM.

[Mind]

Although when I took a mutivitamin/mineral supplement, I didn't feel any different even though it was promised to me that I would shortly after swallowing the first pill.

Whoever promised that, didn't know what they are talking about. Typically, only people who are clinically deficient in essential nutrients will feel something soon after taking a multivitamin. You on the other hand have a good diet and don't have a whole lot to worry about.

[tham]

The RDA is the "medically approved" amounts deemed just enough to prevent
deficiency diseases, such as 60 mg of vitamin C to prevent scurvy.

The people who came up with it are not life extensionists.

If you follow the RDA to the letter and keep strictly within its limits, chances are you'll
die before your time, degenerating in an accelerated manner before that.

Push it up to life extension amounts, and you'll very likely live ten to twenty more
years than those "brains" who developed the RDA, or at least far healthier than
them at the same biological age - meaning that they will likely be struck down with
Alzheimer's, cancer or strokes at 70, while you will still be hopping around.


As for diet :

1. How complete is "complete" and balanced is "balanced", really ? Is there any hard
and fast rule when the human being, and its lifespan, is so full of grey areas ? Who
knows everything, really, when no one can even defeat death ? Who can dare to say
that they have come up with the "gospel truth" in terms of diet and nutrition, when they
don't even know for sure if that it will guarantee them to live to 60, let alone 100 ?
As for degenerative or pathological diseases - can anyone daresay they have
a surefire diet to prevent them ?

2. Even if you theoretically can achieve a "balanced and complete" diet, how much of
it is going to make it past your digestive system and be absorbed ?

3. Of those bioavailable amounts going into your bloodstream, what miniscule remainder
do you think is going to make into the mitochondria of your trillions of cells, let alone get
past your blood-brain barrier, then reach your neurons ?

[matthewebbert]

There are some supplements which helps you to improve your health and some of the supplements are just waste.. so before taking any supplements consult with your doctors..

[Kevnzworld]

There are some supplements which helps you to improve your health and some of the supplements are just waste.. so before taking any supplements consult with your doctors..

Unfortunately most informed patients know much more about vitamins and supplements than most doctors do. For a doctor that has knowledge about integrative functional medicine, check ACAM.
http://www.acamnet.o...ntactsearch.asp

[CurrentChris]

I doubt you get tested for all nutritional deficiencies. Even those tests by Doctors Data and Spectra Cell (or whatever its called) aren't necessarily accurate for every single nutrient. If someone tells you they know for a fact that you absolutely do not have a calcium deficiency then they don't understand about blood calcium being regulated by calcitonin and PTH. Do you think it was rountine testing by doctors that exposed vitamin D deficiencies in so many people in many different countries? It was the World Health Organization. Vitamin D is tested for more frequently now; so it is fair to assume it was NOT being tested for before the WHO exposed the problem. I don't believe the tests you get check for all deficiencies. What info were you given to think that? Don't assume you have no nutritional issues because some basic routine tests come back OK.

[tham]

There are some supplements which helps you to improve your health and some of the supplements are just waste.. so before taking any supplements consult with your doctors..

Unfortunately most informed patients know much more about vitamins and supplements than most doctors do. For a doctor that has knowledge about integrative functional medicine, check ACAM.
http://www.acamnet.o...ntactsearch.asp

My office manager said one of his friends ordered Life Enhancement's Bioenhance
after searching for a good multivit on the net.

http://www.life-enha.../enh-bioenhance


However, before taking, just to play it safe, he showed it to his doctor.

Doctor, on taking a look, told him :

" Don't waste your money. Vitamins don't work. "

So being a good law-abiding patient, he listened to his doctor's advice and left
the bottle lying around his house redundant for several months.

One day, his brother saw the bottle and, finding out that it was unwanted, tried
just one capsule a day for several days. He immediately felt a surge of energy
and "very healthy".

This brother gave it to his mum to try, who also felt very energetic and good
right away. Her osteoarthritis was also relieved.

Brother took a look at the manufacturer on the bottle, and immediately placed
an order with Life Enhancement for another bottle.


So my manager screwed up his friend :

" Serves you right. What the f ** k do doctors know about vitamins ? "

Edited by tham, 08 April 2013 - 09:12 AM.

[matthewebbert]

but still many supplements maker asked you to consult with doctor first before taking it..

[joelcairo]

That's just a boilerplate disclaimer. If supplement makers relied on the informed recommendation of medical doctors, they'd all be out of business. I talked to my favorite doctor just the other day, a specialist whose opinion I highly respect, and he dismissed everything I take as "homeopathic". Without even knowing what I was taking, or why, or how much! Apparently unless it comes from a pharmaceutical company, it has no more effect than distilled water.

Edited by joelcairo, 08 April 2013 - 07:10 PM.

[Bron]

There are some supplements which helps you to improve your health and some of the supplements are just waste.. so before taking any supplements consult with your doctors..

I make sure I go to the best doctors in my area, and usually my doctors don't know the first thing about any sort of health supplements. My GI didn't even know what kefir was...

My vet did though and thought it was great I was giving some to my dog... my point, I never understood why people tell me to consult with my doctors, I always do, but it never, ever, turns to some sort of productive conversation.

And this is not a slam against allopathic medicine. They just aren't educated in this 'area' of alternative medicine. Nor should they be really. Unless something truly becomes proven to treat or prevent a specific disease, they really don't have any business in recommending it to patients.

I think the only supplement any of my doctors has ever recommended to me was niacin, she was a cardiologist affiliated with UPenn.

To the OP, no you don't need vitamin and mineral supplements. Homo Sapiens have lived for approximately 250,000 years, the majority of which no vitamin and mineral supplements were taken.

[Methos000]

^{No one 'needs' supplements of any sort. If you have no interest in life extension and you're satisfied with conventional medical treatments for chronic disease and age-related diseases, why bother? I think that most of us who post here don't fit that description, however.}

Edited by Methos000, 09 April 2013 - 06:42 PM.

[niner]

No one 'needs' supplements of any sort. If you have no interest in life extension and you're satisfied with conventional medical treatments for chronic disease and age-related diseases, why bother? I think that most of us who post here don't fit that description, however.

No one 'needs' oxygen either, unless they want to continue living. People who have a deficiency of an essential nutrient need to correct it, assuming that good health is a desirable state. Such deficiencies can almost always be corrected with diet, however, so I guess you could argue that no supplement is essential, except in rare occurrences.

[Methos000]

Yeah, I was posting from a conservative, conventional medical viewpoint. Such folks usually tell us to skip the supplements and get all our nutrients from food. My grandmother lived to 93 and never took even a multi, so sometimes it works out fairly well. For those of us with aspirations of living healthy lives past 93, I don't think our chances are particularly good if we refuse to take supplements.

[Methos000]

Maybe we should figure out how much c60OO to consume over a short period to keep our mitochondrial membranes saturated for the next 100 years. In that case, even if we forget to take it again we're still covered.

[majkinetor]

Whoever promised that, didn't know what they are talking about. Typically, only people who are clinically deficient in essential nutrients will feel something soon after taking a multivitamin. You on the other hand have a good diet and don't have a whole lot to worry about.

I think you don't know what are you talking about.
And when was "I feel something awesome" relevant ?

Its well known that good things can make you feel bad, and that what feels great may not actually be that great for you.

When you deal with this kind of stuff you don't judge by how you feel most of the time, but what is the latest knowledge about that topic (I exclude here some obvious cases when this is not true, like taking nootropics to boost memory or mood).

So yeah, take multivitamin ON TOP of other powdered vitamins. I can't tell you which one to take tho, its highly individual. But good multivitamin makes sense in any case as a base.

Edited by majkinetor, 09 June 2013 - 11:30 PM.