151 replies to this topic

[Doktor]

Yadayada knows what I'm talking about.

Tom_, I completely agree with you, and what I am saying is not in opposition to your argument. I understand that there are TONS of factors that contribute to Depression.

Maybe I am using learned-helplessness in the wrong context... What I mean to argue is that - the majority of the time (pre-disposed or not) - environmental stimuli condition us in such a way that it eventually leads us into a faulty mindset, and a resulting depression. I agree that traumatic events, cortisol levels, etc all play into the end result, but I am intentionally generalizing. What I am trying to say is that (on a conscious level OR subconscious level through external stimuli) the mind "learns" to adapt to these stimuli, and the adaptation eventually becomes a depression. This goes hand-in-hand with what you are saying as well.

So, what I am suggesting is that people have more control over their mental health then they realize. I believe that most people can undo these changes over a long period of time by working on certain aspects of their being, and thus improving their outlook. I believe that medication is HARDLY EVER the answer, but it does have its uses.

Also, you have to admit, whether the "learned-helplessness" model is incorrect or not, if people believed in it then they would work much harder on their own to combat their mental health issues, and (I believe) would likely make far more progress then they do by relying on pills to "change them". Even if that theory is incorrect, it leaves much more power and hope in the hands of the ill individual, which I think can only be a good thing. After all, the placebo effect in its own right can make a large difference.

[Mike C]

Ha! The human ego-monkeys with big brains. I don't doubt meditation is wrong for you, but this self-hatred thing is your ego and you might want to look at it and examine it as something you do not have to be enslaved by. Yes meditation for many makes things worth-my mistake. You might do well well to explore Yoga and dancing to music-gardening-the body scan meditation. You might benefit by focusing awareness on your body and getting out of the ego trap. Its nothing but a concept anyways. God bless you!

[YOLF]

ok well it sounds like you have resigned yourself to the fact your a coward and a loser so what are you looking for by posting? i'm personally not gonna straight up comiserate with you cause i dont think social failure is a life sentence. Go lift weights and get big enough so people don't fuck with you anymore, if your past is embarrassing move somewhere else and reinvent yourself. Life is a game you just chose not to see it that way because you take other peoples meanings on things to be true. Beliefs and ideas are nothing unless you agree to give them meaning, if you wipe the slate clean its evident that you choose what means what in life. If you dont wipe the slate clean though you are doomed to be a product of your beliefs and ideas rather than the one who controls them.

I can tell that there are some things you're missing. If BF were to move, it wouldn't do him much good, not unless he first developed an understanding, until then, he'd just be very prone to making his embarassments known to more people. He can't reinvent himself without that understanding and he'll just be putting a transparent bandaid on his injury. Wait for my reply to post #87, you might learn something from it too.

Can you give an example for the last part of your post that I've bolded?

ok an example would be as follows. A person has the belief that they are a coward...If all beliefs are suddenly understood as learned ideas which are unconsciously creating their own meaning, it will be evident that the meaning is not inherent and meaning becomes a conscious choice.Yes you could choose to think of yourself as a coward, but it would be a conscious choice not an unconscious one based on preconcieved notions.

Sufficed to say that you would probably not choose to think of yourself as a coward once you really had the choice. We think we are making conscious choices when we're really just reacting to preconcieved notions. We assume that every belief or idea we have is already inherently true so we are doomed to react to it as if it were. The closest thing to the truth is, though, that we have no way of knowing if even our most basic ideas are true other than in relation to what we have been taught. So why take a positive stance on things and state that "i am a coward" or whatever, by doing that you are relinquishing the power to choose freely. The funny part is, once you have the freedom to consciously choose what means what, there are no choices to make because everything just means what you want it to mean.

This is the case to the respective amount and extent to which you suspend your beliefs...

Its a round about way of saying that you make things true by believing them...right down to the belief that "certain things are inherently, objectively true" ......belief leaves no room for choice

oh and dont worry about selling me on cryonics if i could afford it i would do it!

Cryonics can be cheap, It'll cost me about $150 to be pretty well funded when I sign up for the insurance part (hopefully later this year) talk to Rudi Hoffman, it's paid for with life insurance in most cases and it's best to sign up asap as life insurance rates only go up due to age unless you're a smoker and you quit. It may be higher if you have a diagnosed medical/mental condition on your record.

Aside from that, I understand where you're coming from with the rest of your statement, but going off and following it without first understanding some other things would be folly and it only creates dependency on a shrink or other guide whose cheif method of "helping" is manipulation. Sure it would feel good to do that, but eventually you would realize that it was actually someone damaging to your social position.

[Tom_]

Quickly in reply to Cryonics, check the dictionary definition of manipulation, you are trying to do it to your body as I am to mine - yours on the other hand is much more severe.

Docktor you are still missing the point. You are making a number of mistakes/generalizations (although in this case I do agree with sometime extent - although the guy doesn't want my advice - I'm no Doctor he's totally within reason to ignore all of us - although its clearly this whole hopelessness/attention/change in schema going on).

• You are generalizing to reactive depressions - you get Major Depressive Disorder that doesn't present with any history of abuse, other mental health problems (at least not associated and caused directly by), drug abuse or even a stressor...The only history you do expect to find is that of family history of mental health problems. This is just talking about the very rare 'biological depressions' which respond better to medication. The other type which you do address is the 'mixed' bio-psycho-social depressive disorders. These have been shown via randomized controlled studies many times over to also respond best to...Medication.
• passive reduction in symptoms (as seen in meds) leads to improvement in overall functioning providing the necessary motivation for change - meds give hope as well...many even would prefer to think as what they have as having a physical disease than what they idiotically perceive as a character failure (or w/e) (or at least reducing hopelessness both as a symptom and a natural cognition), in moderate to severe MDD should be hit with meds AND then behavioral therapy. After that cognitive and if there functioning isn't back to normal occupational input as well. In those not of very severe category its best to get in as many in one go as possible (meds and behavior) as cognition naturally improves cognitive therapy
• People CAN'T get over it by themselves regardless of what they are told. Those with a depressive disorder are unable to get better by themselves this is the definition "functional deficit" one of three requirements for the diagnosis of MDD.
• The mind doesn't adapt - the BRAIN adapts (physiological/anatomical changes). That is just me being uber pedantic...sorry, personality trait not always for the best.
• Medication, physical (from surgical to bright light therapy) and sensible supplement use is nearly always the right way to go...COMBINED WITH BEHAVIOUAL-PSYCHO-SOCIAL
• What you are talking about - regardless if it is in the best interests of the patient (for the reasons I laid out above I don't think it is) its LYING to them. Both legally and morally.

[YOLF]

life doesn't hate weakness thats a terrible metaphor...its too general. weakness is a strength in many situations for humans. Yes in the animal kingdom weakness is almost always a weakness, but humans are different. Your being a negativist rather than a realist, don't convince yourself otherwise. everyone has strengths and weaknesses, humans have the ability to focus on either their strengths or weakness and this can literally influence evolution.

@tom
I could go on bulshitting myself and everyone else about different things reaching out through different branches. A philosopher would say "yes life is unfair due to us humans or life becomes unfair when you cant live". A psychologist would say, "yes life is neutral and your reality might be off but if there is something you shouldn't do, it is is being a victim". It's interesting that when somebody doesn't take on the actual content of what the person is trying to say- a problem when to realities collides- and starts to think about using labels to define someone. But I understand, my post is filled with a sense negativity which is a reflection of who I am do to my life.

No. That's bullshit. There is an objective reality. Of course I use labels to define someone, just as I use labels to define parts of a complex electrical system (Hard Drive, CPU etc..). You do so too. In fact all humans do, this 'don't label me crap' is getting old fast, what the hell else is anyone meant to do but label another person, whether its a useless label like "sad", slightly more useful "clinically depressed", even more useful "personality disordered and clinically depressed due to the PD" or even more useful "fuckwit decreased size in the amgydala and overprocessing due to hypersensitive upregulated sertonergic neurons, over or under (in about 20%) HPA, decreased size or pathology of the raphe nuclei, Neclus acumbens desensitization and a screwy ACC,

I think I'm going to keep labeling. Just like you.

No, being a martyr makes you look like a twat in most cases. yes determinism is a fact although we are free to live as though it is not and while we have no control over our cognitive processes they move towards sex, food and the usual and so we can be fairly sure they are 'on our side'. No that's a possible vision of the future, the more realistic view is we really don't have a fucking clue although at an educated guess I would say we are at least a 1,000 years away from translating that kind of information into anything useful. I do understand how cryogenics work, I'm not against it, I just don't imagine it will be of use for quite some time.

I just read a few more replies before my last post and Wow...not a single one of you has any clue WHATSOEVER about neuroscience and psychiatry and still don't call yourself delusional.

It's not always whether one understands neuroscience, it's how one feels about it. We, rather they, can correct some problems and treat some symptoms with what they have, but in the end, success if defined for the immortalist by it's function. If the purpose of the drug is to place the patient into a mindset that is the result of another disease (aging) or as a side effect creates a new symptom that just won't be recognized as the patient is expected to die eventually anyways, then an immortalist knows this medicine is not for him. You don't have to know much beyond that. When psych/neuro medicine becomes medicine for immortality and the attitude isn't "you have to die someday anyways," then it may be worth taking advantage of. Until then it's just another complication that'll have to be worked out by the Cryodoctors of the future or in the case that we reach escape from death velocity without temporary deanimation it becomes another liability that will possibly not be covered by one's future insurance and require expensive treatments to correct. When you take death out of the equation, the functionality of modern medicine comes under serious question as the need to treat the condition caused by the treatment could result in ballooning financial/medical liability. Currently, we don't have to worry about these things because patients are all going to die anyways. Immortalist medicine however (at least IMO) will bring higher quality medicines and many of today's medicines won't be seen much more differently than we today see treffening (sp?).

[Tom_]

On the other hand the symptoms (excluding side effects - always rarer/milder than benefits otherwise its never approved/legal to prescribe) if not treated lead to death or suffering.

An Immortalist (Which I'm not to the greater extent not here for - rather general health) should be taking quality of life into account, not only time.

Your understanding of medicine scares me a little bit (no offense meant but it seems very shaky at best)/the fact your entire reasoning hangs on an if that I don't agree with in many/most cases.

[socialpiranha]

Yadayada knows what I'm talking about.

Tom_, I completely agree with you, and what I am saying is not in opposition to your argument. I understand that there are TONS of factors that contribute to Depression.

Maybe I am using learned-helplessness in the wrong context... What I mean to argue is that - the majority of the time (pre-disposed or not) - environmental stimuli condition us in such a way that it eventually leads us into a faulty mindset, and a resulting depression. I agree that traumatic events, cortisol levels, etc all play into the end result, but I am intentionally generalizing. What I am trying to say is that (on a conscious level OR subconscious level through external stimuli) the mind "learns" to adapt to these stimuli, and the adaptation eventually becomes a depression. This goes hand-in-hand with what you are saying as well.

So, what I am suggesting is that people have more control over their mental health then they realize. I believe that most people can undo these changes over a long period of time by working on certain aspects of their being, and thus improving their outlook. I believe that medication is HARDLY EVER the answer, but it does have its uses.

Also, you have to admit, whether the "learned-helplessness" model is incorrect or not, if people believed in it then they would work much harder on their own to combat their mental health issues, and (I believe) would likely make far more progress then they do by relying on pills to "change them". Even if that theory is incorrect, it leaves much more power and hope in the hands of the ill individual, which I think can only be a good thing. After all, the placebo effect in its own right can make a large difference.

I know this is in response to tom_ but i disagree that medication is hardly ever the answer, i do think it is never the full answer. Depression(and other mental health issues) are a problem of both social and physical evolution so the solution has to involve both. You need a clear understanding of the social/existential problems at hand and how to remedy them, plus something which can change the physical state to a point where you are able to implement the psychological change. Without changing the physical state the same factors which worked in concert to create a depressive state will maintain the depressive state. If your body is not rewarding you for being productive, no amount of psychological "effort/work" can change that. Thats why neither drugs alone, nor psychological understanding alone can truly treat the vast majority of severe depression. There are cases on both sides where drugs alone or psychological work alone work, but they are the exception. ssri's + therapy currently has the best remission rate of any treatment even given the shortcomings of them both. Imagine the possibilities of the combination of actual potent antidepressants and comprehensive psychological overhaul.

[YOLF]

Yadayada knows what I'm talking about.

Tom_, I completely agree with you, and what I am saying is not in opposition to your argument. I understand that there are TONS of factors that contribute to Depression.

Maybe I am using learned-helplessness in the wrong context... What I mean to argue is that - the majority of the time (pre-disposed or not) - environmental stimuli condition us in such a way that it eventually leads us into a faulty mindset, and a resulting depression. I agree that traumatic events, cortisol levels, etc all play into the end result, but I am intentionally generalizing. What I am trying to say is that (on a conscious level OR subconscious level through external stimuli) the mind "learns" to adapt to these stimuli, and the adaptation eventually becomes a depression. This goes hand-in-hand with what you are saying as well.

So, what I am suggesting is that people have more control over their mental health then they realize. I believe that most people can undo these changes over a long period of time by working on certain aspects of their being, and thus improving their outlook. I believe that medication is HARDLY EVER the answer, but it does have its uses.

Also, you have to admit, whether the "learned-helplessness" model is incorrect or not, if people believed in it then they would work much harder on their own to combat their mental health issues, and (I believe) would likely make far more progress then they do by relying on pills to "change them". Even if that theory is incorrect, it leaves much more power and hope in the hands of the ill individual, which I think can only be a good thing. After all, the placebo effect in its own right can make a large difference.

Using placebo as a medicine can backfire and distant the patient from a timely understanding of the pathology of their condition... Environmental stimuli is nearly 100% intentional in an isolated/ostracized person's life. It's somewhat safe to assume that his state is how they intend for him to be, and any further treatment is just to lower their liability... ie, to keep him ignorant enough to think he has hope so he's working to live the life he's been put into. Given that an isolated person is probably living a life that created for them, and the effects a domino can have on a person's life, I don't see why they wouldn't put their effort into engineering a better life for their patient giving that from their perspective he is something of a public servant. Those people get paid well and live good lives. If you engineer a person's life, they should be provided a lifestyle fitting their "service." Given it's effect on sleep, it could be up to a 168 hour shift in a given week. That's alot of overtime!

Ha! The human ego-monkeys with big brains. I don't doubt meditation is wrong for you, but this self-hatred thing is your ego and you might want to look at it and examine it as something you do not have to be enslaved by. Yes meditation for many makes things worth-my mistake. You might do well well to explore Yoga and dancing to music-gardening-the body scan meditation. You might benefit by focusing awareness on your body and getting out of the ego trap. Its nothing but a concept anyways. God bless you!

I'd be careful how you describe this ego effect... I've never agreed with doing it that way... It's a very limited understanding and there is much more to what he's feeling... why not save him loads of time and skip to teaching him the actual explanation?

Edited by cryonicsculture, 17 June 2013 - 12:36 AM.

[YOLF]

Quickly in reply to Cryonics, check the dictionary definition of manipulation, you are trying to do it to your body as I am to mine - yours on the other hand is much more severe.

Docktor you are still missing the point. You are making a number of mistakes/generalizations (although in this case I do agree with sometime extent - although the guy doesn't want my advice - I'm no Doctor he's totally within reason to ignore all of us - although its clearly this whole hopelessness/attention/change in schema going on).

• You are generalizing to reactive depressions - you get Major Depressive Disorder that doesn't present with any history of abuse, other mental health problems (at least not associated and caused directly by), drug abuse or even a stressor...The only history you do expect to find is that of family history of mental health problems. This is just talking about the very rare 'biological depressions' which respond better to medication. The other type which you do address is the 'mixed' bio-psycho-social depressive disorders. These have been shown via randomized controlled studies many times over to also respond best to...Medication.
• passive reduction in symptoms (as seen in meds) leads to improvement in overall functioning providing the necessary motivation for change - meds give hope as well...many even would prefer to think as what they have as having a physical disease than what they idiotically perceive as a character failure (or w/e) (or at least reducing hopelessness both as a symptom and a natural cognition), in moderate to severe MDD should be hit with meds AND then behavioral therapy. After that cognitive and if there functioning isn't back to normal occupational input as well. In those not of very severe category its best to get in as many in one go as possible (meds and behavior) as cognition naturally improves cognitive therapy
• People CAN'T get over it by themselves regardless of what they are told. Those with a depressive disorder are unable to get better by themselves this is the definition "functional deficit" one of three requirements for the diagnosis of MDD.
• The mind doesn't adapt - the BRAIN adapts (physiological/anatomical changes). That is just me being uber pedantic...sorry, personality trait not always for the best.
• Medication, physical (from surgical to bright light therapy) and sensible supplement use is nearly always the right way to go...COMBINED WITH BEHAVIOUAL-PSYCHO-SOCIAL
• What you are talking about - regardless if it is in the best interests of the patient (for the reasons I laid out above I don't think it is) its LYING to them. Both legally and morally.

Manipulation:
"exerting shrewd or devious influence especially for one's own advantage"

What instance of the word are you referring to?

IMO intergenerational depression can result from social or other deficits being passed on or learned and when the smoke of depression clears, this is most commonly (to my assumption) the reason people with a history of depression choose not to have kids of their own (for fear of passing on their learned deficits) and being dependent on someone else (whom they probably don't agree with) to raise their kid where they cannot. Recovering from depression can require generations in this sense and the role of parenting (or a person's mark on the world) can be undermined or just the parent's intentions ignored. Someone might raise their first kid in ignorance and give up on later kids altogether after they learn that their attempts at parenthood are useless and no more than gifts of intention with no actual value. Psychiatric drug use/abuse and letting virtually anyone assume their problems are directly genetic or even in large part genetic in origin just removes some degree of culpability from the psych profession's treatment as they might otherwise result in a loss of grandchildren or even be understood as socially based genocide/eugenics... Psych and neuro are very dangerous sciences the way they conduct themselves. That's why IMO cryonics has to be part of treatment.

[Tom_]

Socialpir - you said meds and behavioral-psych-social therapies are needed in nearly ALL cases of severe MDD...the more severe the better the response, typically. Not saying expect remission.


Twin studies put MDD at 37%, controlled and repeated. Not sure if sub-clinical dysfunction has been found in other twin but have been found in Autistic, Bipolar and Schizophrenia.

Autistic (80% clinical 90% sub clinical)

Bipiolar (50% clinical 80% sub clinical)

Schizophrenia (47% clinical unsure sub clinical)

That's just genetic-biological factors.

No Cyronics I pretty sure "

• What you are talking about - regardless if it is in the best interests of the patient (for the reasons I laid out above I don't think it is) its LYING to them. Both legally and morally.
  "

was aiimed at Dockor...its getting quite hard to follow eh!

Edited by Tom_, 17 June 2013 - 01:46 AM.

[YOLF]

Quickly in reply to Cryonics, check the dictionary definition of manipulation, you are trying to do it to your body as I am to mine - yours on the other hand is much more severe.

Docktor you are still missing the point. You are making a number of mistakes/generalizations (although in this case I do agree with sometime extent - although the guy doesn't want my advice - I'm no Doctor he's totally within reason to ignore all of us - although its clearly this whole hopelessness/attention/change in schema going on).

• You are generalizing to reactive depressions - you get Major Depressive Disorder that doesn't present with any history of abuse, other mental health problems (at least not associated and caused directly by), drug abuse or even a stressor...The only history you do expect to find is that of family history of mental health problems. This is just talking about the very rare 'biological depressions' which respond better to medication. The other type which you do address is the 'mixed' bio-psycho-social depressive disorders. These have been shown via randomized controlled studies many times over to also respond best to...Medication.
• passive reduction in symptoms (as seen in meds) leads to improvement in overall functioning providing the necessary motivation for change - meds give hope as well...many even would prefer to think as what they have as having a physical disease than what they idiotically perceive as a character failure (or w/e) (or at least reducing hopelessness both as a symptom and a natural cognition), in moderate to severe MDD should be hit with meds AND then behavioral therapy. After that cognitive and if there functioning isn't back to normal occupational input as well. In those not of very severe category its best to get in as many in one go as possible (meds and behavior) as cognition naturally improves cognitive therapy
• People CAN'T get over it by themselves regardless of what they are told. Those with a depressive disorder are unable to get better by themselves this is the definition "functional deficit" one of three requirements for the diagnosis of MDD.
• The mind doesn't adapt - the BRAIN adapts (physiological/anatomical changes). That is just me being uber pedantic...sorry, personality trait not always for the best.
• Medication, physical (from surgical to bright light therapy) and sensible supplement use is nearly always the right way to go...COMBINED WITH BEHAVIOUAL-PSYCHO-SOCIAL
• What you are talking about - regardless if it is in the best interests of the patient (for the reasons I laid out above I don't think it is) its LYING to them. Both legally and morally.

If that last comment is directed at me, can you be specific on my "best interest of the patient" statement? I don't think you've understood it, or perhaps I made a grammatical mistake, my soap box has been that manipulation of any kind doesn't qualify as therapy in my eyes and we are existentially obliged not to do such things for the inherent intergenerational deficits and potential genocides/eugenics that it creates.

[Tom_]

I don't see how this could ever create eugentic or genocidal countries/people.

p.s. modified post above with actual answer to your question.


This is getting really interesting! I had this thread as a dead end.

Edited by Tom_, 17 June 2013 - 01:50 AM.

[YOLF]

On the other hand the symptoms (excluding side effects - always rarer/milder than benefits otherwise its never approved/legal to prescribe) if not treated lead to death or suffering.

An Immortalist (Which I'm not to the greater extent not here for - rather general health) should be taking quality of life into account, not only time.

Your understanding of medicine scares me a little bit (no offense meant but it seems very shaky at best)/the fact your entire reasoning hangs on an if that I don't agree with in many/most cases.

But how do you define this?

As far as quality of life goes, for one who will live indefinitely, what's this life? A barbaric past?

The if being cryonics? The longer we live, the better the deanimation proceedure will be. I'm fairly certain that it'll happen, what isn't certain is the amount of time that will be required. Otherwise, having lost the most healthful years from one's life and being ill equiped to have a full and complete role in the development of one's offspring, why consider your life anything but a wash? Life w/ aging is exceptionally cruel in this sense. At the very least, some part of cryopatients will be recoverable enough to create or recreate a healthy embryo from that could benefit from tomorrow's medicine and which could continue the propogation of one's line under better circumstances. But again, I'm positive that as long as the cryonics movement survives and our bodies remain in deanimation, there will always be a chance of restoring us to health and a life that will be indefinite. What's more concerning is considering modern medicine an authority on something that's still under development and has neither been proven or disproven in an indefinite sense. Patient care trusts and other investment vehicles along with globalized distribution of investments and facilities will virtually ensure our continued existence so long as management is wise enough to know when to move the enterprise overseas if necessary and fundraise to establish stronger trusts. Things are in order and developing that will continue to improve our standing and sustainability. Globalism is our friend. Or are you seeing us as a bunch of guys with some conventional freezer space in a warehouse and no culture of our own? We even have a few of our own religions out there. It keeps surprising me everytime I think I know every cryo organization I find or hear of another that is involved. We're part of history, and we're part of the future already!

[YOLF]

Socialpir - you said meds and behavioral-psych-social therapies are needed in nearly ALL cases of severe MDD...the more severe the better the response, typically. Not saying expect remission.


Twin studies put MDD at 37%, controlled and repeated. Not sure if sub-clinical dysfunction has been found in other twin but have been found in Autistic, Bipolar and Schizophrenia.

Autistic (80% clinical 90% sub clinical)

Bipiolar (50% clinical 80% sub clinical)

Schizophrenia (47% clinical unsure sub clinical)

That's just genetic-biological factors.

No Cyronics I pretty sure "

• What you are talking about - regardless if it is in the best interests of the patient (for the reasons I laid out above I don't think it is) its LYING to them. Both legally and morally.
  "

was aiimed at Dockor...its getting quite hard to follow eh!

My bad, my working memory has about reached it's limit if quotes aren't used. One of my initial reasons for getting into cryonics and conventional supplement based nootropic use. Memory is an inconvenient lynchpin.

Anyways I question how deeply the pathologies of the patients in the studies were understood. Psych as an industry can be very "wham bam thank you mam" if you don't have good insurance and shrinks seem to want to generalize on things far to often and accept success in treatment anyway they can get it... even placebo is part of their arsenal apparently.

[YOLF]

I don't see how this could ever create eugentic or genocidal countries/people.

p.s. modified post above with actual answer to your question.


This is getting really interesting! I had this thread as a dead end.

IMO psychiatric treatment is used fairly often to push for eugenic decisions. Using the literal definition of genocide (to cut w/in a category) rather than the UN's very limited and corrupt IMO definition, I'm saying that treatment or covert/intended/arranged/etc .series of events or outcomes that result one's inability or lack of desire to have their own offspring is genocidal or eugenics. (It's a working statement). I'm not very knowledgeable about subsumes "eugenics," but by it's literal definition I don't consider it be any different than genocide with the exception that genocides are generally violent and eugenists is genocide done with flowers and smiles until those believing in obtain enough influence to commit outright violent genocide. The results of either look the same in terms of human diversity. IMO eugenists should be banned from being doctors or healthcare providers of any kind.

[Soma]

I have read all of these posts about depression being equated with delusion and I can't say as though I agree. I would have to posit the contrary- that happiness is delusional. Think about it- what is it about human existence that should confer happiness, contentment, peace, etc? Nothing, whatsoever.

Human existence is basically very degrees of personal suffering for a couple of decades and then you are reducing to nothingness for eternity. I guess if happiness gives you a better chance of surviving until you pass off your genes, than it has an beneficial from an evolutionary perspective. Just because a particular perspective may generate a sense of peace and happiness doesn't make it true (think: religion). Being happy about your own human existence is completely delusional. There is simply nothing to be happy about. Your life has no point whatsoever. Your death will be as meaningul as a pine needle falling from the tree in million acre forest.

We are born, we suffer, we witness untold suffering of those around us, we are enticed with feelings that things could be or should be different, but we know they never will, and then we dissolve into the oblivion of unsconsciousness forever.

Happiness is delusional. There is nothing to be happy about. Never was. Never will be.

Edited by Soma, 17 June 2013 - 05:22 PM.

[Tom_]

Name a single modern first world country where Psychiatrists are allowed to stop people breeding and then yes, I will agree with you. Eugenics is controlling the human gene pool...stopping or telling people whom they may mate with for better/exclude undesired traits.

[YOLF]

Name a single modern first world country where Psychiatrists are allowed to stop people breeding and then yes, I will agree with you. Eugenics is controlling the human gene pool...stopping or telling people whom they may mate with for better/exclude undesired traits.

Eugenics is rarely direct, it's not forceful either, it's covert. An example would be Nazi's sterilizing people with radiation while they sat alone in waiting rooms. The scope of eugenics in the US and the programs we paid for overseas far exceeds even Nazi Germany. Even Britain has a history of it. If you don't value life and a complete diversity enough to ban the sterilization of those who haven't produced offspring or at least choose to freeze their reproductive cells/organs should they do it out of medical or statistical necessity (as in a case similar to Angelina Jolie's)

No one has a "eugenics" building today, but my mother has a friend (a government social worker) who works with women from disadvantaged backgrounds who seemed pretty delusional to me about her positive role in sterilizing single women from poor neighborhoods or those who have diseases in their families. I've seen manipulative pressure in my own family on a group of my cousines who's mother has a genetic disease. The government may not support it directly, but they coucil families to consider pushing for it and many believe in it in their personal lives and believe that families should persuade or raise their kids not to have kids... They rationalize that "as long as they do it through the family" it's okay.

What it comes down to is that people believe that they will either get better medical care for themselves if someone else isn't born who needs it too, or that eugenics is just the most efficient way of preventing disease... I've met some who even called it preventative medicine. It's not clear as night and day... But why sterilize people when we are on the verge of a medical singularity? Developing a cure is often justified by the number of people it helps, but if modern eugenicists have their way, there won't be enough to justify curing any disease and they win with their delusional perspective on pristine human purity that eventually significantly reduces human diversity. When people move fast and get stopped, they just slow down and keep trying. But eugenics all depends on one's tolerance of such things. There are alot of other things that we do today that will be revealed as eugenics given enough time to allow the effects of it to become significant enough.

The basics of it work like this:
1. A disease or one kind or another is recognized in a person
2.The clinician of whatever kind assesses the family and the individual
3. Clinician approaches susceptible family members or the individual and instructs them on how to provoke the desire for sterilization in their loved one and how to get them to see it as a form of freedom.

Edited by cryonicsculture, 18 June 2013 - 06:33 AM.

[Mike C]

I have read all of these posts about depression being equated with delusion and I can't say as though I agree. I would have to posit the contrary- that happiness is delusional. Think about it- what is it about human existence that should confer happiness, contentment, peace, etc? Nothing, whatsoever.

Human existence is basically very degrees of personal suffering for a couple of decades and then you are reducing to nothingness for eternity. I guess if happiness gives you a better chance of surviving until you pass off your genes, than it has an beneficial from an evolutionary perspective. Just because a particular perspective may generate a sense of peace and happiness doesn't make it true (think: religion). Being happy about your own human existence is completely delusional. There is simply nothing to be happy about. Your life has no point whatsoever. Your death will be as meaningul as a pine needle falling from the tree in million acre forest.

We are born, we suffer, we witness untold suffering of those around us, we are enticed with feelings that things could be or should be different, but we know they never will, and then we dissolve into the oblivion of unsconsciousness forever.

Happiness is delusional. There is nothing to be happy about. Never was. Never will be.

To be free then is to realize thought as functional-and detachment from emotional/personal thought.
So for whom do you worry? No one in life and no one in death

Basically, representational thinking deals with the habitual use of mental images at a very subtle level. The major problem with such thinking is that we believe it matches the object it tries to represent. But it doesn't. thererfore , no representation can match our totality-who we are-nature. And as long as we try to visualize this nature, we are just going to run around in circles. Serious Meditation ultimately aims for opening the hand of thought, that is, suspending all judgmental thinking and letting words, ideas, images and thoughts pass by without getting involved in them. To be free then is to realize thought as functional-and detachment from emotional/personal thought which is the cause of much uneccesary suffering. So to be happy leave the madhouse of emotional thought and engage in living as a physical being. That is what ywe are in any case, so realize it and be it.

Mike C.

[Soma]

So to be happy leave the madhouse of emotional thought and engage in living as a physical being.

The so called "leaving the madness of emotional thought" is an old technique otherwise known as denial or willful ignorance. As such, everything you said is fine and well but it doesn't change anything about human existence. I would agree with you in one sense- concepts such as meaning, purpose, reason, and love are all mental abstractions of the human animal and have no existence in the reality of the outer natural world. These are abstract constructs much like a trapezoid or a parallelogram. They seem perfectly real, valid, and relevant, except they can't actually be found in nature unmanipulated by man, i.e., they don't actually exist. The same hold true meaning, purpose, love, justice (fairness), empathy, etc. None of these exist outside of man's head. He has dreamed them up along with all of the other abstractions. They have no existence apart from the mental abstraction that they are.

So, to get back to the stark nature of existence: the human body is incredibly frail and vulnerable. You are born into a violent world seething with natural disasters, famines, and innumerable diseases which will ravage you in an excruciating fashion. Add to that man-made wars, pollution, corruption, human subjugation/slavery, sexual enslavement, ad infinitum. Seriosuly, one could go on and on for pages. Even if manking suddenly decided to be humane and civil towards one another, life would still be unfathomably harsh and cruel. t is just one brutal struggle after another. And we all know how it ends. Obliteration.

Personally, i have never been on this site for life-extension. I originally came here for some health advice. Personally, I wouldn't want to extend my life. Why would you want to extend suffering and misery. That's like somebody in a prisoner-of-war torture camp begging for more torture. No, I am not sadomasochistic enough to want to live as long as possible. Those that enjoy living and are "happy" about the human condition are deeply deluded. When it comes to death or torment, death is always the better option, in my opinion. With death, the ineffable horror that is our existence will finally be extinguished forever.

Edited by Soma, 18 June 2013 - 03:45 PM.

[socialpiranha]

The problem with leaving the madhouse is that its impossible, you are the madhouse, you dont exist without the madhouse. Meditation is a dead end street. The best you can hope to do is gain some control of the madhouse through understanding the nature of belief and truth.

Yes the human body is fragile and life is ultimately meaningless and empty but on the other hand, the body is extremely resilient and capable of beautiful thoughts and feelings which create meaning by contrast with the inherent meaninglesness and emptiness of life.

Truth is always relative, relative to other truths, where's the truth in that.

[Tom_]

Cryonics what you said is completely not true - I can see how you might intereptate some government plans as attempts at eugenics that isn't there aim - after all it isn't even in there best interests. I could crawl though stats, studies and long winded peices of paper on aims etc all day to prove you wrong but I have a feeling it won't make a difference, if you want maybe I'll give it ago.

The rest of you guys seem to have completely left the relms of reason, logic and science so far behind you reality is in a corner somewhere crying.

I mean come on "truth is always relative, relative to other truths, where's the truth in that?". That hardly warrents an answer. That's ontologically unsound and not a logical argument either.


Am I missing the point of this thread, is this where everyone moans about how shit life is because I could go for some of that.

[Soma]

In a nutshell:

Why is depression so hard to beat?

Because it is the inevitable end of an unrestricted intelligent inquiry into the nature and condition of being.

Edited by Soma, 18 June 2013 - 06:36 PM.

[Tom_]

but thats just....bollocks. I mean you have no evidence what so ever for it. You can't even turn it into a proposional argument.

[YOLF]

• Hypersensitivity to rejection/criticism
• Self-imposed social isolation
• Extreme shyness or anxiety in social situations, though the person feels a strong desire for close relationships^[10]
• Avoids physical contact because it has been associated with an unpleasant or painful stimulus
• Feelings of inadequacy
• Severe low self-esteem
• Self-loathing
• Mistrust of others
• Emotional distancing related to intimacy
• Highly self-conscious
• Self-critical about their problems relating to others
• Problems in occupational functioning
• Lonely self-perception, although others may find the relationship with them meaningful
• Feeling inferior to others
• In some more extreme cases — agoraphobia
• Utilizes fantasy as a form of escapism and to interrupt painful thoughts

sound anything like you?

Yes!

There is controversy as to whether avoidant personality disorder is a distinct disorder from generalized social phobia and it is contended by some that they are merely different conceptualisations of the same disorder, where avoidant personality disorder may represent the more severe form.^[3][4] This is argued because generalized social phobia and avoidant personality disorder have similar diagnostic criteria and may share a similar causation, subjective experience, course, treatment, and identical underlying personality features, such as shyness.^[5][6][

I don't need to quote myself when it comes to the anxiety part.

The diagnosis itself doesn't tell me anything. It's just another medical term and there is no cure for it.

IMO, when you see past the system, you fall outside of it. Understanding your condition from the ultimate root perspective removes you from classification in a sense. Now you're not someone who is a particular list of behaviors and out looks, you're a person who's trapped by loss. The DSM also makes certain assumptions that don't fit anyways. They only way they can "fix" you is to make you happy through ignorance, The DSM criteria is all about getting someone to accept the authority of the shrink so they can be decieved into acceptance and happiness and remain stupified.

I'm past the system because I have crawled myself in to it and out of it. After reading scientific journals, psychology and psychiatric research I have found that they have not done anything to help people dig themselves out of their miserable lives. Stability, sociability, risktaking, aggression, anxiety, passiveness, stress, depression is a matter of biology. Self - esteem and confidence is just social makeup or markers for good healthy genes. We are social animals and the above named factors contribute to well being and self- love! This creates a predisposed social system.

Why we see so many people on SSRI's is because there is evidence that these drugs reduce the activity in the amygdala and limbic system. They really don't understand how these drugs work, the serotonin theory is in my opinion bullshit. If anything these drugs keep certain neurochemicasl- not elevated in the brain- but just floating around there. This means that they really just blunt certain actions which in some sense, make you dull in the head. That's why so many feel like zombies, or they are constantly tired or they sleep a lot when on them! Good luck being stressed or socially anxious when feeling like a tired zombie all the time. Psychology fails at saving people because it's just trying to fix the social makeup- it's the same as telling people to pretend!

If you look at this documentary you will see what I mean. But keep in mind that SSRI's blunt certain action, they don't remove the core problem. Which means that these people can better pretend to have certain genetic features. (If you look at the documentary past 45 min you will see a very shy girl with selective mutism on SSRI's.


As you say, current technology can't do shit! And why would they change anything! Because the more social slaves society has, the better for those sitting on top of the system.
http://www.psycholog...ture-or-nurture

I would be better off if I could go to the docs and tell him what drugs I need. I'm not going to sit there any more and let them tell me shit and give me the lousy drugs just so I will be content about my shitty life while they make money! That's what they want!

My suggestion to everyone is that they fucking should stop dwelling about their problems and see what's possible for them to do, realistically, and forget anything about becoming better at those things they so much wish for.Put that energy on to something else and if it comes to sex, go get a prostitute.

After years of reading in different forums for those who have "psychological problems" I have concluded that people just sit there and they keep on writing the same bullshit over and over again, they go to the shrinks with false hope- and everyone says that, "go to the shrink or doc"- and that shit doesn't help. But it's so ingrained in their mind by the media and commercialism that it's possible to become anything, that it is possible to fix your problems. They are just selling delusional dreams. It's so sad reading when people come back to those forums writing that they "relapsed"- which is not really their fault because it's the doc's who made them delusional in the first place. And it ends up in self- blame. Do you see where psychology fundamentally fails at?

You’re not past the system yet, when you’re past the system, you’ll be enlightened enough to get help on your terms and no shrink or impression/assumption that’s been left on you by the system will be able manipulate you or be used to harm you or separate your mind and knowledge from being wholly part of the path your life takes through therapy or outside of it through adjuncts of a therapist or similar entity. Esteem and confidence are something society gives you, if you have genetic reasons for not having it, those genetic reasons are what made society feel they had the right not to give you those things in the first place, and instead giving you depression and anxiety. What can be said of a button that has been pressed? That it is depressed! It takes action to create a depressed individual and the action may or may not be easy to see initially. We are social animals, all of us. Some just feel justified in taking that away from you and making whatever your original problem was worse until you reached the point where you are now through a domino effect.
Don’t worry about neuro chemistry, you can’t possibly be diagnosed for a chemical problem until you personally are understood through a complete pathology of your condition and all of the pathologies are corrected. Until then, the drugs will just numb you and disconnect you so you’ll be more easily manipulated by a shrink. I’m not sure that any drug was made to do anything more than just numb the patient for this. Even the history of psychology and psychiatry has been misrepresented to keep you from being able get help on your terms. They’ve decided who you are, and they want to keep you that way.
It’s not so much that psychology wants to turn you into an actor. Rather it’s that they aren’t giving you the self-esteem, confidence, conventions of communication, and some other things that you need to hold your own in social situations. In effect, they’re stripping you of your privacy or leaving your privacy naked so others who were given these things (everyone else really) can see it and this doesn’t improve your life. If any shrink wanted to, your course of therapy wouldn’t last more than 3-6 months and you’d be entirely free to create your own life without anyone ever knowing who didn’t know you in the first place and you’d have zero disadvantage. They could even do it in a shorter time if you’re a good active attention reader and they gave you a 200 or so page book on it in plain language that anyone could understand. When you’re able to get help on your terms, you’ll be able to reverse engineer the concepts you weren’t taught from people’s attitudes, certain parts of the media, and even advertising. You’ll even recognize that they’re insulting the you that they created from time to time.
I can tell by reading the first sentence of the link to your article that it’s one of those media things you reverse engineer learning concepts from. Read anything and espouse negativity towards it and you are their fool. There is much they have left you in the dark about.
Going to the docs and having an educated discussion on the drugs would be of benefit, but check your facts and stay away from anything that is in a psychiatric category. Those won’t help you. Their side effects are sometimes their primary use, that’s why they have so many drugs with virtually the same side effects… so they can keep manipulating you with the same side effects as you try drug after drug… Many drugs have permanent long term side effects and can change the way your body functions. It really is a travesty to take anything outside of your normal body chemistry which may leave you impaired or changed as this could effect you very negatively and even keep you from being able to understand things properly meaning they get to leave you deluded and call it a success. I wouldn’t touch synthetics with a ten foot pole unless they showed great nootropic potential to help you with learning, reverse engineering the concepts that you weren’t taught, and remembering what you’ve learned. Those things will help you more than any psych drug.
I’m not sure prostitutes are the answer, a person shouldn’t need to pay a prostitute, it’s kind of an insult if that’s all they can do and she may not do any differently than a shrink a would do. If that were the case, a person would suffer interference on many levels. It might be fun, but it could never be an answer.
The forums are run by psych industry to ensure that no one gets out of their troubles except through them. Otherwise I’d be a regular poster there and be ending everyone’s depression etc at record speed by now. It is possible to fix your problems, but the loss you’ve accumulated in the mean time can only currently be recovered through cryonics. You’ll need to change your assumptions there. Cryonics should definitely be an approved procedure for people suffering from the system. When you’re free enough from it, you can fight for it and fight to change the system that exists currently and that gets away with this crap almost the world over these days. That’s what I’d recommend. Until you understand what you’re going through, you are the whole world’s fool and any argument you can muster won’t be anything different than a child arguing with an adult. Given your situation you don’t even have freedom of speech which is a guaranteed right so they say.

I do hope it’s been writing all of this. Good luck!

[YOLF]

Cryonics what you said is completely not true - I can see how you might intereptate some government plans as attempts at eugenics that isn't there aim - after all it isn't even in there best interests. I could crawl though stats, studies and long winded peices of paper on aims etc all day to prove you wrong but I have a feeling it won't make a difference, if you want maybe I'll give it ago.

The rest of you guys seem to have completely left the relms of reason, logic and science so far behind you reality is in a corner somewhere crying.

I mean come on "truth is always relative, relative to other truths, where's the truth in that?". That hardly warrents an answer. That's ontologically unsound and not a logical argument either.


Am I missing the point of this thread, is this where everyone moans about how shit life is because I could go for some of that.

As I said, it's rarely direct. You could quote the aims of many things and be correct about it in the literal sense all day and all night. You have to look at the results of an initiative and work it backwards in it's context and then determine whether or not the result was intended.

[Doktor]

In a nutshell:

Why is depression so hard to beat?

Because it is the inevitable end of an unrestricted intelligent inquiry into the nature and condition of being.

I'm not sure if this is a serious statement, or if you were being sarcastic or something, but I disagree.

First of all, I think most would agree that an individuals examination of their own existence is a life-long undertaking. I guess you could argue that a person suffering from depression simply "gives up" this examination, and accepts the false belief that they are inadequate, but for most this is a continuous process.

Also, the fact that you associate depression as the end result of this "foray into your own being" really speaks about your current state of mental health. I am not trying to be offensive (as you already admitted you are depressed), but a healthy individual would not get depressed from thinking about their life. You could state that a person who develops symptoms of depression after examining their life may be clinically depressed, but many do not feel this way.

Half of me knows that your post was probably some half-serious quib (making this entirely pointless), but I don't like it when people project their perspective on a matter as general fact.

Also, for anyone who is having a difficult time with depression and may be reading this post... consider reading the book "The Power of Now". The author is a complete fool and a nut-job (IMO; read the first chapter and you will likely agree with me), but if you can see past the hippy, new-age, spiritual bullshit, he makes some really valid points... particularly on the matter of embracing the present and removing the past and future from your state of mind and thoughts.

[YOLF]

what good would removing the future be? Removing the past would just result in a continuation of bad habits without ever understanding them and being to live outside of them. This would lead to being nothing less than being society's blissfully ignorant fool. That's what the hippy newage spiritual BS is supposed to inform the reader of. This is why psychologists etc. are considered quacks... They manipulate on multiple layers and if the patient comes to understand this, they usually identify with the layer of manipulation that is conveniently place there for them to recognize and makes them feel empowered so they'll fell satisfied with themselves and won't look any deeper. Thus a psychologist can continue to manipulate a person (considering the equity in the relationship, you really can't call the person seeing a shrink etc a patient... they're more of a or an enemy) far beyond their relationship.

[Soma]

First of all, I think most would agree that an individuals examination of their own existence is a life-long undertaking. I guess you could argue that a person suffering from depression simply "gives up" this examination, and accepts the false belief that they are inadequate, but for most this is a continuous process.

First of all most people don't engage in any type of existential self-examination. They are too busy with self-imposed distractions, which are really just a way to keep busy and not think about the essential horror of existing. Many people are discontented to varying degrees over certain circumstances in their life, but fewer are depressed. Most people are too distracted, ignorant, fearful, or stupid to truly confront and grasp the utter futility of life.

Also, the fact that you associate depression as the end result of this "foray into your own being" really speaks about your current state of mental health. I am not trying to be offensive (as you already admitted you are depressed), but a healthy individual would not get depressed from thinking about their life. You could state that a person who develops symptoms of depression after examining their life may be clinically depressed, but many do not feel this way.

Not a "foray into your own being" but being/existence itself. Existence is utterly absurb. It is entirely devoid of meaning. Our lives have absolutely no meaning or value apart from that which we project on them, but our projections are illusions. They are fantasies. The human being has a very short life full of longing, frustration, and futility. And then its over. In the end, all for nothing.

The very nature of existence is utterly horrifying...and if you don't think so, then you haven't thought about it ...or at least you haven't thought about it without immersing it in illusions like meaning, purpose, love, etc.

[socialpiranha]

Tolle presents those "valid points" in an erroneous context though imo. It all boils down to the fact that truth has no real substance except in relation to other concepts. Something is only true or meaningful because you hold something else as true or meaningful in relation to it. Its like a cat chasing it's tail, there is no truth set in stone, just an image of it.

So for example If a person has a belief about themselves, that is how they see themself and ultimately the body will set about to make that as permanent as possible(homeostasis). The Unconscious acceptance of ideas due to external information seems like it is being done consciously and going through the filter of intelligence, but its not an unbiased intelligence, it is biased by the particular emotion which it provokes.

Here's and example of a thought sequence:

I am a loser...am i really?...yes i know this because i can see it in other peoples expression during social interaction not to mention comparison to people who are winners...

If emotion didn't serve as a stamp of approval for truth, the sequence would continue like this:

But how do i know my interpretation of their expression is correct, and what authority does society have to dictate truth anyway?

This is the real self esteem/confidence issue at hand, everything boils down to this. When you see that truth is relative you have the chance to see that there really is no truth at all only your experience of it. Now you have the choice to accept society's versions of truth or to operate from your own. Not your own based on the opinions of others. This is a huge departure and is very hard to do because of the web of social pressure, but it is worth it to be free from that prison. This is what being true to yourself really means, All those ideas you thought were part of what made you who you are were actually just ancient meme's trying to survive in you. You don't have to be a host to them, belief is their food source, cut them off and they will die. You can keep a few as pets but dont feed them the good stuff.

Now all that being said, because the rest of society operates within the current socially accepted framework, The incoming information(from society) might stay the same at least to some extent and therefore so will your emotional response. This is where drugs come in and why the combination of comprehensive psychological understanding and supportive drug treatment is the best path to remission.

It's not often possible to stop believing something when you are constantly bombarded with instinctive emotional responses supporting the belief. In fact, if you find a drug which stops the emotional response, the belief often dissappears anyway, especially if you have a good understanding of the nature of truth. The advent of modern medicine and psychological understanding gives us the possibility now to manipulate evolution, to change the biochemical and psychological variable which make one person a success and another a failure. Obviously were in the early stages now but it only gets exponentially better from here.

Edited by socialpiranha, 19 June 2013 - 04:52 AM.