17 replies to this topic

[dosquito]

I am very frustrated as I am trying to find a solution to this problem.


Thorne Basic Nutrients IV seems to be superior to AOR in nearly every way.

Except there is a huge, glaring problem: 400IU of alpha tocopheryl without any other E isomers, which is hugely imbalanced.

Some multivitamins are better than others with regard to Vit E, but they always compromise something else. For example, AOR's basics uses cyancobalamin (WTF!), while their more expensive one has hardly any zinc?

I am very concerned about throwing off my balance of E vitamins, but I can't find a better solution for multivitamin than Thorne. It's reasonably priced, contains great forms of the vitamins/minerals...

I even considered finding a multimineral and augmenting it. But even out of all the options on iherb there is a lot to be desired, and I would have to add like 5 different things to get what I want.

The best solution I can think of now is to maybe not take my multi on the weekends and supplement in that time with tocotrienols...What do you guys think?

[dosquito]

What I may do is supplement this with Vit E / K2 / B / Zinc / Magnesium, but even that is a lot...

http://www.iherb.com...ggie-Caps/18435

Shockingly, Orange Triad seems to have a fairly decent formulation. The B vitamins could use some improvement..what do you guys think?

http://www.iherb.com...0-Tablets/24674

Edited by dosquito, 21 April 2013 - 02:03 PM.

[nupi]

I supplement AOR MultiBasics with FishOil, D3, K and Magnesium

But in the end, either of the two is good enough that I would not dilute its effects by going all OCD over one or two downsides (although personally, the iron in Thorne would worry me a little)

Edited by nupi, 21 April 2013 - 02:15 PM.

[dosquito]

Im personally not worried about the iron because I somehow end up eating cheese with almost every meal and I don't eat a lot of red meat.

However apparently Orange Triad is reformulating to only have 20 IU of Vitamin E in the future, and they also reduced some other key ingredients to save money (I mean, "for the customers").

youre right that it's probably not worth being OCD, but I can't help it! Yetserday I read so many bad things about alpha tocopherol creating imbalance :/. No wonder we perfectionists ended up doing the Vimmortal project!

But the best compromise right now seems to be to supplement my Thorne with tocotrienols. I just ordered some of Jarrow's toco-sorb.

[dosquito]

I forgot to mention: iron is a two way street. Low iron levels are very unhealthy

[dosquito]

Some of you might like this

http://www.iherb.com...0-Tablets/30537

I'm going to start taking tocotrienols every day and Orange Triad on the weekends to get a break from the high tocopherol dosage.

Edited by dosquito, 21 April 2013 - 08:20 PM.

[blood]

Agree about the Thorne "basic nutrients" multis - they would be ideal if not for the inexplicably high amount of alpha-tocopherol. I actually wrote to them, complaining about this issue, but they didn't bother to reply.

The Children's Nutrients by Thorne looks useful as a base that could be built on with additional items. Also looks like something I could give to my elderly parents, and feel confident they aren't getting too much of anything. I don't mind the small - 4mg - amount of iron.

Edited by blood, 23 April 2013 - 06:29 AM.

[nameless]

The children's version of Thorne is decent (at a partial dose), except for the small amount of iron. And I used to take one of the Thorne basic multis, but at like 1 cap/daily.

Key problems with multis -- if it has folic acid = no good. If it has megadoses of Bs = no good. If you can't get it reasonably balanced at a partial dose = no good. And something that may apply to both AOR and Thorne, choline (in theory), may not be so good either, due to CVD risk -- but the choline doses are at least reasonable, unlike what Vimmortal used to use.

[dosquito]

If you don't mind the B vitamin megadose, I think this might be the best "basic" multi out there right now

http://www.amazon.co...d=A63C0J6B0YEP0
http://catalog.desig...Daily-Multi-240

Edited by dosquito, 24 April 2013 - 07:08 PM.

[tham]

Agree about the Thorne "basic nutrients" multis - they would be ideal if not for the inexplicably high amount of alpha-tocopherol. I actually wrote to them, complaining about this issue, but they didn't bother to reply.

The Children's Nutrients by Thorne looks useful as a base that could be built on with additional items. Also looks like something I could give to my elderly parents, and feel confident they aren't getting too much of anything. I don't mind the small - 4mg - amount of iron.

Thorne's Children's Basic Nutrients are one of the two which I give to
my aged 92-year old father actually, although slightly expensive. I've just
made an order for another bottle today.

http://www.iherb.com...ggie-Caps/18435


He has dysphagia from a stroke a few years ago, as well as dementia, so the
tiny capsules are what I need. I'm not sure how many the nursing home caretaker
gives him, though I would tell them about two to three a day.

Importantly, I want a small amount of iron, say 4 to 8 mg daily, which is needed by
the elderly, regardless of any free radical damage.

I also selected it because the folic acid and B12 are in advanced forms, and riboflavin
and B6 are coenzymes.

The main drawback is the relatively high amount of alpha tocopherol and the lack
of ginseng or other adaptogen.


I have a hard time selecting a multivit for him because I prefer one with some ginseng
and a small amount of iron, but most importantly be in capsule, or liquid form.

The first to come to mind would of course be liquid multis, but many of those are
in strong or artificial tasting fruit juices (like orange-vanilla), with horrible reviews as
to their taste on Iherb's pages - and my father has an extremely sensitive tongue.


The other multi which I give him is this one-daily local formulation, with CA Meyer's
ginseng and just 7 mg or iron, exactly what I want.

http://www.livewell2...?p=dailysential


Its only drawback is a lack of calcium and magnesium (how else would they
squeeze everything into one capsule), so I usually supplement it with Bluebonnet's
liquid cal-mag, blueberry flavour, which seems palatable to him.

The local Livewell's cal-mag product comes in one-inch oval tablets (I take it myself),
so that is not an option for him.

http://www.livewell2...?p=ostecal-plus

Edited by tham, 29 April 2013 - 08:01 PM.

[August59]

You could look at Douglas Labs Ultra Preventative X and Pure Encapsulation, but the good ones are getting to expensive for me.

[goobicii]

please help me Aor Ortho Core vs Thorne Children multivit vs Douglas Labs Ultra Preventive vs....

this I use now,its cheapest of them all but have all minerals in chelate form ( the best right?) Gaspari Anavite

[Michael]

As Nameless mentioned, the Orange Triad product has folic acid, which is useless if you're one of the significant percentage of the population with an unfavorable MTHFR SNP, and may possibly  increase cancer risk, although the overall clinical trial data no longer seems to support this; I would somewhat err on the side of caution, because the trials are almost all in high-risk CVD patients, which may obscure cancer risk via competitive mortality, and are "only" up to 5 years long.
 
Both the OT and the Thorne have 200 micrograms of selenium, which is a dangerous dose. It's pretty clear at this point that selenium at these kinds of doses either has no effect on cancer risk, or increases the risk of some cancers while decreasing the risk of others; meanwhile, 200 microgram selenium supplements increase the risk of diabetes, as has now been confirmed in many additional studies even from higher dietary levels.

 

Essentially no one in the United States is lacking in selenium intake:
 

The concentration and activity of glutathione peroxidases and other selenoproteins increase with increasing intake of selenium until the dose-response relationship reaches a plateau. With the possible exception of selenoprotein P, this plateau of maximum activity is reached at plasma selenium levels of 70 to 90 ng/mL. At greater levels, additional selenium intake further increases the plasma selenium level because of nonspecific incorporation of selenomethionine into albumin and other proteins rather than increased concentration or activity of glutathione peroxidases (refs). In the United States, dietary intake of selenium is relatively high (80 to 165 mcg/d) (9). Indeed, 99% and 50% of adults have serum selenium levels greater than 95 ng/mL and 124 ng/mL (ref), respectively. In short, the risk for selenium deficiency in the United States is negligible, and the use of selenium supplements in this country is unlikely to increase the antioxidant activity of glutathione peroxidases. [ref]

 

Information from NHANES III on serum selenium concentrations in a free-living population is given in Appendix Table F-3. Serum or plasma selenium concentrations greater than the 0.8 to 1.1 µmol/L (7 to 9 µg/dL [=70-90 ng/mL] ) plateau concentration are associated with maximization of plasma selenoproteins (Hill et al., 1996). The NHANES III median serum selenium concentration was 1.4 µmol/L (12.4 µg/dL) for 17,630 subjects aged 9 to more than 70 years. The first percentile was 1.1 µmol/L (9.5 µg/dL) and the ninety-ninth percentile was 1.9 µmol/L (16.3 µg/dL). This shows that at least 99 percent of these subjects should have had maximal concentrations of plasma selenoproteins.[ref]

[dosquito]

I think the best multi on the market right now is thorne's 2 a day. I take one instead.

 

It does have 200mcg selenomethionine, but I take iodine a few times a week.

 

 

"
There were slightly more prostate cancers in men taking vitamin E alone, and slightly more diabetes in men taking only selenium. But neither finding was statistically significant, meaning they were likely due to chance. [Actually, since these same results were also found in the NPCS (for diabetes) and in other RCTs using alpha-tocopherol (for prostate cancer), I'm inclined to suspect a real, but small, effect -MR]."

 

 

I wonder if the issues with selenium are because the average person isn't getting enough iodine? They are companion nutrients

Edited by dosquito, 20 November 2016 - 02:41 PM.

[dosquito]

after rethinking things, my new strategy is to only take multi and antioxidants on weekends.

this should save money and hedge bets given all the controversy

deficiencies in america are generally a secondary symptom anyway.

there are only a few key minerals to watch out for

Edited by dosquito, 21 November 2016 - 05:30 AM.

[pamojja]

there are only a few key minerals to watch out for

 

 

Nutrient from food alone, ranked by the occurrence of dietary inadequacy among adults | Percentage of dietary intakes below the estimated average requirement for a specific population* | Naturally occurring sources of nutrient** |

2-to-8-year-old children | 14-to-18-year-old girls | Adults 19 and older

Vitamin D | 81% | 98% | 95% | Fatty fish, mushrooms [vitamin D is naturally formed in the body when skin is exposed to sunlight; vitamin D is added to fortified milk]

Vitamin E | 65% | 99% | 94% | Nuts, seeds, vegetable oils, green leafy vegetables

Magnesium | 2% | 90% | 61% | Whole grains, wheat bran and wheat germ, green leafy vegetables, legumes, nuts, seeds

Vitamin A | 6% | 57% | 51% | Preformed vitamin A: liver, fatty fish, milk, eggs; provitamin A carotenoids: carrots, pumpkins, tomatoes, leafy green vegetables

Calcium | 23% | 81% | 49% | Milk, yogurt, cheese, kale, broccoli

Vitamin C | 2% | 45% | 43% | All fruits and vegetables, particularly citrus fruits and tomatoes

Vitamin B6 | 0.1% | 18% | 15% | Many foods; highest levels in fish, beef, poultry, potatoes and other starchy vegetables, and fruit other than citrus

Folate | 0.2% | 19% | 13% | Many foods; highest levels in spinach, liver, asparagus, Brussels sprouts [mandatory, standardized addition to enriched flour and flour products]

Zinc | 0.2% | 24% | 12% | Red meat, poultry, beans, nuts, some seafood, whole grains

Iron | 0.7% | 12% | 8% | Highest amounts in meat and seafood; lower levels in nuts and beans [mandatory, standardized addition to enriched flour and flour products]

Thiamin | 0.1% | 10% | 7% | Whole grain products [mandatory, standardized addition to enriched flour and flour products]

Copper | 0% | 16% | 5% | Shellfish, whole grains, beans, nuts, potatoes, organ meats (kidneys, liver)

Vitamin B12 | 0% | 7% | 4% | Animal products: fish, meat, poultry, eggs, milk

Riboflavin | 0% | 5% | 2% | Milk and dairy products, eggs, meat, green leafy vegetables, legumes [mandatory, standardized addition to enriched flour and flour products]

Niacin | 0.1% | 4% | 2% | Meat, fish, seeds and nuts, whole grains [mandatory, standardized addition to enriched flour and flour products]

Selenium | 0% | 2% | 1% | Found in different plant and animal foods; highest levels in seafood and organ meats (kidneys, liver)

 

I wonder if the issues with selenium are because the average person isn't getting enough iodine? They are companion nutrients

 

I've got in average 260 mcg/d of selenium supplemented (gradually increased) the last 8 years, additional to about 70 mcg/d estimated from diet. Though I'm indeed very carbohydrate sensitive and therefore avoid most of it, my HbA1c has been in average 5.1%, including one out-lier at 6,2% (made at an Indian lab). This once off measurement alone would explain why there was indeed a 0,2% in HbA1c increase between the first and the latter 4 years.

 

But I also live in the selenium depleted Alps, additionally to having a chronic condition. Got twice selenium dependent Glutathion peroxidase (GSH-Px) meassured, in 2012 at 43 U/gHb, in 2015 at 65 U/gHb (27.5 - 73.6 normal range). And hair tissue mineral analysis gave me an average level of 0.9 ug/g (+/- 0.2; 0.3-0.18 normal range).

 

My experience in testing nutrients in serum, whole blood and hair is, that one has to be very careful in not over interpreting single results. Could high serum selenium levels not also mean other things than selenium sufficiency?

 

Anyway, I guess there are others here supplementing the usual 200 mcg/d for many years. Any other honest experiences with such long-term supplementation?

Edited by pamojja, 21 November 2016 - 10:29 AM.

[Michael]

I think the best multi on the market right now is thorne's 2 a day. I take one instead.
 
It does have 200mcg selenomethionine, but I take iodine a few times a week.
 
I wonder if the issues with selenium are because the average person isn't getting enough iodine? They are companion nutrients

 
Lack of Se can make iodine ineffective because of its role in incorporation of iodine into thyroid hormones; I can't imagine why lack of iodine would be causing Se to be problematic.
 

 

there are only a few key minerals to watch out for

 

Nutrient from food alone, ranked by the occurrence of dietary inadequacy among adults | Percentage of dietary intakes below the estimated average requirement for a specific population* | Naturally occurring sources of nutrient** |

2-to-8-year-old children | 14-to-18-year-old girls | Adults 19 and older

 

Depressing table (and note that it confirms that only 1% of the population doesn't meet the EAR) — but of course, the question isn't what many people are deficient in, but what you are deficient in. Instead of assuming that you need this stuff because many other people do, crunch a few days' diet through CRON-O-Meter and find out.

And even then, supplementation shouldn't be the first solution. For starters, anyone who isn't getting the EAR of vitamin A, folate, vitamin C, or copper is eating ridiculously few vegetables. And I doubt many omnivorous men are getting too little iron.
 
 Pamojja says: I've got in average 260 mcg/d of selenium supplemented (gradually increased) the last 8 years, additional to about 70 mcg/d estimated from diet. Though I'm indeed very carbohydrate sensitive and therefore avoid most of it, my HbA1c has been in average 5.1%, including one out-lier at 6,2% (made at an Indian lab). This once off measurement alone would explain why there was indeed a 0,2% in HbA1c increase between the first and the latter 4 years.
 
But I also live in the selenium depleted Alps, additionally to having a chronic condition. Got twice selenium dependent Glutathion peroxidase (GSH-Px) meassured, in 2012 at 43 U/gHb, in 2015 at 65 U/gHb (27.5 - 73.6 normal range). And hair tissue mineral analysis gave me an average level of 0.9 ug/g (+/- 0.2; 0.3-0.18 normal range).

As you are evidently aware, mild Se deficiencies are common in the EU. But they're vanishingly rare in the USA and Canada.
 
Hair analysis isn't a reliable measurement for any mineral, or Se in particular.
 
Pamojja says: My experience in testing nutrients in serum, whole blood and hair is, that one has to be very careful in not over interpreting single results. Could high serum selenium levels not also mean other things than selenium sufficiency?

I've looked into this a fair bit and have never seen any suggestion of such. The IOM considers serum Se to be reliable, and they rightly reject serum levels of most minerals and vitamins as indicators of functional adequacy. Low selenium occur in the frail elderly or during bouts of high inflammation as part of the acute phase response, even if Se intake is adequate, however, raising the question of reverse causation (study finds low serum Se linked to disease X, leading some to conclude that inadequate Se intake increases the risk of X when actually it's disease X leading to low Se).

[pamojja]

Hair analysis isn't a reliable measurement for any mineral, or Se in particular.

...

I've looked into this a fair bit and have never seen any suggestion of such. The IOM considers serum Se to be reliable, and they rightly reject serum levels of most minerals and vitamins as indicators of functional adequacy.

 

That's the big difficulty with most nutrient tests. That's why I do a variety of them with the little budget I have, like the Selenium dependent GSH-Px (costs me only 8,-), which does give an further piece of the puzzle. With HTMA it isn't that different, in that it can show some elements more reliable, some have to be interpreted differently, and some elements are useless. Here the opinion of someone with more experience in them:

 

 

http://www.nutrition... interpretation

 

Hair mineral analysis can be a useful laboratory test although it’s value depends on it’s interpretation. The following are quotes by Dr. William Walsh, Director of Research and Executive Director at The Pfeiffer Treatment Centre, on his view on hair analysis interpretation.

• “Hair analysis ALONE is a very poor way to assess copper status. I say this after (a) evaluating more than 100,000 hair analyses, (b) developing the first high-quality hair standards (loaned to NIH and other researchers), and © performing numerous double-blind, controlled experiments involving hair chemistries. Findings of high Cu levels in hair are compromised by the many external sources of Cu which cannot be completely removed by washing. Low levels of Cu in hair and/or blood often are coincident with dangerous overloads of Cu in liver. Hair Cu values can provide information of clinical significance, but by itself is not clinically decisive.”
• “Elevated hair magnesium nearly always means magnesium depletion in the body, presumably because of increased Mg excretion. The same is true of hair Calcium and hair Zinc.”
• “An interesting aspect of Mn is that most persons with elevated Mn in hair have low Mn levels in blood. There are quite a few persons who believe that high Mn in the hair of behavior-disordered persons indicates a Mn overload. The opposite is true, most of the time.”
• “Aluminum levels in hair present a challenging cross-contamination problem, since there is Al everywhere in our environment. I recommend a repeat hair test be done to insure that the Al result is real (unless you've already done this). I've evaluated more than 30,000 hair analyses and in my experience high aluminum levels usually cannot be replicated with repeat testing.”
• “Uranium is an analysis that I have very little confidence in. I've done quality assurance testing of hair analysis labs and find some of the elements assays to be highly reliable and others to be nearly worthless. Uranium is NOT one of the good elements. Despite this, reported uranium levels usually are quite high in mining areas.... so there appears to be some QUALITATIVE significance to the uranium analysis..... but little QUANTITATIVE significance. Overall, I do not find the uranium assay to be of clinical value.”
• “The "good" elements are Ca, Mg, Zn, Cu, Na, K, S, Mn, Fe, Pb, Se, P, and Cd.”
•  
• “Others that are decent (qualitative relevance) are Sb, As, Hg, Cr, Mo, Li, Ba, Ni, Sr, and Co.”
• “Terrible assays (according to my tests) are: Al, Be, Bi, Pt, Th, Tl, U, Ag, Sn, Ti, V, B, I, Ge, Rb, and Zr.”
• “We've obtained hair Zn and plasma Zn levels (simultaneously) about 40,000 times. Low hair Zn correlates beautifully with low plasma levels. However, very elevated Zn in hair nearly always means Zn deficiency and low plasma Zn levels. Most of the time this involves a pyrrole disorder which results in very high Zn excretion in urine (and hair). In a healthy person without a metal-metabolism problem, only about 4% of excreted Zn leaves through the kidneys.”
• “I've done hair analysis proficiency testing for more than 25 years. I've never yet found a lab that can reliably assay barium in hair. The same is true of more than 10 other elements routinely reported by the hair analysis labs. Strontium has a history of strange results since typical levels are close to the detection limit for most labs.”
• “Cu/Zn ratios in hair are very helpful in ADHD and behavior disorders..... but far less useful in ASD, depression, and schizophrenia.”
• “I have no idea why the elevated Na & K levels in hair are associated with genius.”

 

But maybe I have to think so, because my Na & K levels in hair have been consistently too low for the last 7 years tested, and therefore I'm not really a genius?

 

Joking aside, it does give clues with about a dozen elements where there are imbalances, and where it's better to back off supplementing, additional to possible toxicity. But at a lower price then a single one for selenium.

 

Low selenium occur in the frail elderly or during bouts of high inflammation as part of the acute phase response, even if Se intake is adequate, however, raising the question of reverse causation (study finds low serum Se linked to disease X, leading some to conclude that inadequate Se intake increases the risk of X when actually it's disease X leading to low Se).

 

The point I actually wanted to make is, that in my case with a serious chronic condition (which by the way, improved greatly with a life-style and Orthomolecular medicine approach; something none of my MDs considered possible) and/or living on selenium depleted lands didn't cause an increase in diabetes over 8 years of high dose supplementation. Reverse causation doesn't exclude the possibility, or even very likelihood, that when low Se serum levels depleted by disease, are replenished by high-dose supplementation, recovery becomes more likely again. As it seems to have been in my case.

 

If it could cause diabetes with selenium sufficiency and good health, we should at least find 1 person of so many supplementing for many years here, who could confirm this risk out of one's own experience?