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Does anyone want true immortality?

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#31 shadowhawk

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 10:27 PM

I believe that our souls/minds are immortal already, but I dont know if I would want my body to be immortal.

 

I think eventually I would want to take that Final Promotion.

 

The soul or spirit are not physical so they are not subject to physical laws.  Everything solely physical dies.  To die does not mean to cease to exist.  Nothing purely physical ceases to exist but it no longer can function in the form it was.
 


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#32 RGCheek

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 10:44 PM

 

I believe that our souls/minds are immortal already, but I dont know if I would want my body to be immortal.

 

I think eventually I would want to take that Final Promotion.

 

The soul or spirit are not physical so they are not subject to physical laws.  Everything solely physical dies.  To die does not mean to cease to exist.  Nothing purely physical ceases to exist but it no longer can function in the form it was.
 

 

I agree that dying does not mean we cease to exist, but I am not sure that mechanical indefinite lifespans are not achievable as forms of energy or as mechanical housing for the mind.

 

atoms and molecules composed of atoms are capable of very long periods of existence.  Solar systems, though not nearly so complex as the cell or other biological forms, have been around for billions of years, in fact DNA may have existed before our sun did and brought to us one a comet.

 

Uploading our minds through a gradual transition from our own minds to some kind of computer could happen one day.

 

Imagine if you would a brain that has had new tissue added to it due to surgery attempting to repair damage an accident. Is it implausible that, if it is added to the frontal cortex that it might l meld and become part of the persons mind? Why not?

 

If say the frontal cortex was damaged by 50% and the new material amounted to 50% of the prior intact mind, could the person expand their use of said material into the new tissue?

 

And what if there were no damage? Suppose the new tissue was simply grafted in?  More than that, suppose the new tissue was part of an external biological "brain that was wirelessly connected to the old brain,and had no prior consciousness or memories, maybe it was grown in a lab from the persons own stem cells? What if this process could be repeated over and over, so that we existed in a biological "box" with a brain in it that could be surgically fit into our skulls and had a layering that would grow neural connections to the right nerves to function?  I know this sounds hilarious to some degree, but I do not see anything that makes it impossible.

 

I am not saying this is a proven possibility, I am just thinking wild I guess.



#33 PWAIN

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 09:10 AM

I'm thinking more along the lines of individual cells being replaced by artificial ones as they die. Over a long period of time I gradually convert into a machine.

As for how long I want to live, I think I'll play it by ear. Probably review after a billion years and again in ten trillion and again in ten to the power of one hundred years.

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#34 Danail Bulgaria

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 09:43 AM

 

Alright. Call it "never stop living" instead of immortality. The most important is the meaning, not how exactly you will say it.

 

Its not true that everything physical has no other choice but to die. It is a matter of the human brain to make everything possible. It will be possible in the (distant) future for the people who will live then.

 

Plus the topic is about the wish, not about the possibility of never stop living.

Evidence?  None.  Everything purely physical is subject to the physical laws of nature and everything purely physical decays and becomes disorganized.  Are you saying mind is not physical? 

 

 

Evidence, that your post is off-topic? The title of this particular topic

"Does anyone want true immortality?"

The word "want" means a wish, not a possibility. If the topic was named "Is it possible the real immortality?" then your answer is at the topic. But this is not the case and you are going off-topic.

 

Don't push people off-topic. If you want to discuss the possibilities for true immortality, start your own topic like "Is it possible we to be truly immortal" or something of the kind.



#35 Danail Bulgaria

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 09:45 AM

I'm thinking more along the lines of individual cells being replaced by artificial ones as they die. Over a long period of time I gradually convert into a machine.

As for how long I want to live, I think I'll play it by ear. Probably review after a billion years and again in ten trillion and again in ten to the power of one hundred years.

 

I hope the people like you are only few, because otherwise the planet of the robots is comming. And the people will dissapear.



#36 PWAIN

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 12:28 PM

I'm thinking more along the lines of individual cells being replaced by artificial ones as they die. Over a long period of time I gradually convert into a machine.

As for how long I want to live, I think I'll play it by ear. Probably review after a billion years and again in ten trillion and again in ten to the power of one hundred years.


I hope the people like you are only few, because otherwise the planet of the robots is comming. And the people will dissapear.

Bare in mind that I will be human as long as is feasible but ultimately I'm not sure the human body can go on indefinitely especially when it comes to things like memory. I will preserve as much of my humanness as I can. It is not that I have a desire to be a machine, it is that I desire to live for an incredibly long time.

#37 Danail Bulgaria

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 04:13 PM

This also is off-yopic.

 

When you replace the last of your cells with an artifitial cell, you will loose 100% of your gebetic and biological identity.

 

You will be dead and replaced with an artifitial doll. The question is can you immortalize yourself with a doll?

 

You may start a topic like that in the AI section



#38 shadowhawk

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 11:48 PM

 

 

I believe that our souls/minds are immortal already, but I dont know if I would want my body to be immortal.

 

I think eventually I would want to take that Final Promotion.

 

The soul or spirit are not physical so they are not subject to physical laws.  Everything solely physical dies.  To die does not mean to cease to exist.  Nothing purely physical ceases to exist but it no longer can function in the form it was.
 

 

I agree that dying does not mean we cease to exist, but I am not sure that mechanical indefinite lifespans are not achievable as forms of energy or as mechanical housing for the mind.

 

atoms and molecules composed of atoms are capable of very long periods of existence.  Solar systems, though not nearly so complex as the cell or other biological forms, have been around for billions of years, in fact DNA may have existed before our sun did and brought to us one a comet.

 

Uploading our minds through a gradual transition from our own minds to some kind of computer could happen one day.

 

Imagine if you would a brain that has had new tissue added to it due to surgery attempting to repair damage an accident. Is it implausible that, if it is added to the frontal cortex that it might l meld and become part of the persons mind? Why not?

 

If say the frontal cortex was damaged by 50% and the new material amounted to 50% of the prior intact mind, could the person expand their use of said material into the new tissue?

 

And what if there were no damage? Suppose the new tissue was simply grafted in?  More than that, suppose the new tissue was part of an external biological "brain that was wirelessly connected to the old brain,and had no prior consciousness or memories, maybe it was grown in a lab from the persons own stem cells? What if this process could be repeated over and over, so that we existed in a biological "box" with a brain in it that could be surgically fit into our skulls and had a layering that would grow neural connections to the right nerves to function?  I know this sounds hilarious to some degree, but I do not see anything that makes it impossible.

 

I am not saying this is a proven possibility, I am just thinking wild I guess.

 

as long as we are thinking wild with no evidence.  Right now everything physical only dies and there is evidence.. 



#39 shadowhawk

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 11:58 PM

 

 

I believe that our souls/minds are immortal already, but I dont know if I would want my body to be immortal.

 

I think eventually I would want to take that Final Promotion.

 

The soul or spirit are not physical so they are not subject to physical laws.  Everything solely physical dies.  To die does not mean to cease to exist.  Nothing purely physical ceases to exist but it no longer can function in the form it was.
 

 

I agree that dying does not mean we cease to exist, but I am not sure that mechanical indefinite lifespans are not achievable as forms of energy or as mechanical housing for the mind.

 

atoms and molecules composed of atoms are capable of very long periods of existence.  Solar systems, though not nearly so complex as the cell or other biological forms, have been around for billions of years, in fact DNA may have existed before our sun did and brought to us one a comet.

 

Uploading our minds through a gradual transition from our own minds to some kind of computer could happen one day.

 

Imagine if you would a brain that has had new tissue added to it due to surgery attempting to repair damage an accident. Is it implausible that, if it is added to the frontal cortex that it might l meld and become part of the persons mind? Why not?

 

If say the frontal cortex was damaged by 50% and the new material amounted to 50% of the prior intact mind, could the person expand their use of said material into the new tissue?

 

And what if there were no damage? Suppose the new tissue was simply grafted in?  More than that, suppose the new tissue was part of an external biological "brain that was wirelessly connected to the old brain,and had no prior consciousness or memories, maybe it was grown in a lab from the persons own stem cells? What if this process could be repeated over and over, so that we existed in a biological "box" with a brain in it that could be surgically fit into our skulls and had a layering that would grow neural connections to the right nerves to function?  I know this sounds hilarious to some degree, but I do not see anything that makes it impossible.

 

I am not saying this is a proven possibility, I am just thinking wild I guess.

 

as long as we are thinking wild with no evidence.  Right now everything physical only dies and there is evidence.. 



#40 shadowhawk

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 12:05 AM

This also is off-yopic.

 

When you replace the last of your cells with an artifitial cell, you will loose 100% of your gebetic and biological identity.

 

You will be dead and replaced with an artifitial doll. The question is can you immortalize yourself with a doll?

 

You may start a topic like that in the AI section

You have evidence this is off topic.  Do you have evidence evidence is off topic?  Are we not thinking wild unless we are a little doll?  OK i CAN DO THAT.  :)



#41 Danail Bulgaria

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 06:16 AM

In the long run shadowhawk, if you had the chance to never die, would you get it?



#42 shadowhawk

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 11:25 PM

In the long run shadowhawk, if you had the chance to never die, would you get it?

Yes.  Would you?



#43 Danail Bulgaria

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 11:29 PM

Yes, so do I :) 



#44 YOLF

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Posted 27 August 2016 - 10:06 AM

 

Alright. Call it "never stop living" instead of immortality. The most important is the meaning, not how exactly you will say it.

 

Its not true that everything physical has no other choice but to die. It is a matter of the human brain to make everything possible. It will be possible in the (distant) future for the people who will live then.

 

Plus the topic is about the wish, not about the possibility of never stop living.

Evidence?  None.  Everything purely physical is subject to the physical laws of nature and everything purely physical decays and becomes disorganized.  Are you saying mind is not physical? 

 

This argument is shortsighted and oversimplified. all that is physical and not given order decays. We're talking about giving our organisms more biological order such that it could sustain itself.



#45 shadowhawk

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Posted 28 August 2016 - 10:40 PM

 

 

Alright. Call it "never stop living" instead of immortality. The most important is the meaning, not how exactly you will say it.

 

Its not true that everything physical has no other choice but to die. It is a matter of the human brain to make everything possible. It will be possible in the (distant) future for the people who will live then.

 

Plus the topic is about the wish, not about the possibility of never stop living.

Evidence?  None.  Everything purely physical is subject to the physical laws of nature and everything purely physical decays and becomes disorganized.  Are you saying mind is not physical? 

 

This argument is shortsighted and oversimplified. all that is physical and not given order decays. We're talking about giving our organisms more biological order such that it could sustain itself.

 

We are talking about the fantastic I am told.  What you want,  Everything decays but who cares.  You are missing the point of the thread.  All you need is to wish everything does not decay and I wish that.

 


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#46 Castiel

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Posted 31 August 2016 - 01:22 AM

 

Alright. Call it "never stop living" instead of immortality. The most important is the meaning, not how exactly you will say it.

 

Its not true that everything physical has no other choice but to die. It is a matter of the human brain to make everything possible. It will be possible in the (distant) future for the people who will live then.

 

Plus the topic is about the wish, not about the possibility of never stop living.

Evidence?  None.  Everything purely physical is subject to the physical laws of nature and everything purely physical decays and becomes disorganized.  Are you saying mind is not physical? 

 

 

Matter only transforms from one form to another, also we don't know what will happen in terms of dark energy, or if it can be affected by intelligence, such that the universe could re-collapse.  Some physicists have already hypothesized that a controlled collapse would allow for unlimited computation.

 

Also it is said that black holes are potentially the ultimate computers and some have hypothesized that there may be ways to create non evaporating, eternal black holes.

 

As for immortality if you can have the ultimate computer eternally with you, you need not travel, all experiences can come to you.   Merging with the ultimate computer and obtaining immortality and perfect security is essentially ascending to a divine status.   It is a state of being known as the god state, you are one with god.

 

The essence of the mind is in all likelihood digital information, digital patterns, and patterns are atemporal, eternal in nature.  They can be physically instantiated, but they can move from one physical instantiation to another, even entirely changing substrate.  Information cannot be destroyed.  

 

If the world is a naturally occurring simulation on the ultimate computer, as I and some others suspect.  It may be possible to alter the world at a fundamental level, what some would call reality warping or what others would call akashic engineering would be possible...  essentially we could rewrite the physical laws, perhaps even the past present and future at once.  The patterns of the past, the human texts, human history, the religions of the world could all be the product of reverberation of an awakened logos(the physical manifestation of the divine word) in the near future... it would all depend on whether the world is truly a naturally occurring simulation in a naturally occurring eternal supercomputer and how hard would it be to tap on it at a fundamental level.   It definitely would be the ultimate hard start, if such technology is accessible to the products of the science of mind design, the children of the mind.

 

People talk of replacing cells with machines, but they don't seem to realize that cells are collections of naturally occurring machines.  The cell is a machine composed of molecular machines and structural molecules and associated ions and molecules.  Entire cells are constantly replaced, and even the cells that are not replaced replace most of their molecular components, their molecular machines.   So it is machines replacing machines, it does not affect continuity of existence.  The brain is a biological computer.   Biology is capable of negligible senescence, with organisms lasting tens of thousands of years, and cell lines 100s of millions of years.   A biological body can last indefinitely if correctly genetically modified.   Barring accidents and disease even billion or trillion years would be possible.

 

As for whether I'd want true immortality, yes as long as I can have perpetual control of the ultimate computer.


Edited by Castiel, 31 August 2016 - 01:40 AM.


#47 shadowhawk

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Posted 31 August 2016 - 01:37 AM

 

 

Alright. Call it "never stop living" instead of immortality. The most important is the meaning, not how exactly you will say it.

 

Its not true that everything physical has no other choice but to die. It is a matter of the human brain to make everything possible. It will be possible in the (distant) future for the people who will live then.

 

Plus the topic is about the wish, not about the possibility of never stop living.

Evidence?  None.  Everything purely physical is subject to the physical laws of nature and everything purely physical decays and becomes disorganized.  Are you saying mind is not physical? 

 

 

Matter only transforms from one form to another, also we don't know what will happen in terms of dark energy, or if it can be affected by intelligence, such that the universe could re-collapse.  Some physicists have already hypothesized that a controlled collapse would allow for unlimited computation.

 

Also it is said that black holes are potentially the ultimate computers and some have hypothesized that there may be ways to create non evaporating, eternal black holes.

 

As for immortality if you can have the ultimate computer eternally with you, you need not travel, all experiences can come to you.   Merging with the ultimate computer and obtaining immortality and perfect security is essentially ascending to a divine status.   It is a state of being known as the god state, you are one with god.

 

The essence of the mind is in all likelihood digital information, digital patterns, and patterns are atemporal, eternal in nature.  They can be physically instantiated, bu they can move from one physical instantiation to another, even entirely changing substrate.  Information cannot be destroyed.

 

People talk of replacing cells with machines, but they don't seem to realize that cells are collections of naturally occurring machines.  The cell is a machine composed of molecular machines and structural molecules and associated ions and molecules.   The brain is a biological computer.   Biology is capable of negligible senescence, with organisms lasting tens of thousands of years, and cell lines 100s of millions of years.   A biological body can last indefinitely if correctly genetically modified.   Barring accidents and disease even billion or trillion years would be possible.

 

As for whether I'd want true immortality, yes as long as I can have perpetual control of the ultimate computer.

 

 

I wont' say "evidence" we have settled that and you have followed the topic nicely.  Coulda woulda shoulda, I wish.  Someone hopes and they even talk about it.  How about space travel through a black hole where when yolu emerge in another dimension you get to start all over in another time warp!  We could do it if we replaced cells with machines that never break down, wear out, or become obsolete.  I am sure they could get us through the black hole.
 


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#48 Castiel

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Posted 31 August 2016 - 02:08 AM

 

 

I wont' say "evidence" we have settled that and you have followed the topic nicely.  Coulda woulda shoulda, I wish.  Someone hopes and they even talk about it.  How about space travel through a black hole where when yolu emerge in another dimension you get to start all over in another time warp!  We could do it if we replaced cells with machines that never break down, wear out, or become obsolete.  I am sure they could get us through the black hole.
 

 

 

 The thing is some have already speculated that some cells, even in humans, such as neurons do not truly age but only suffer from neurodegeneration due to aging supporting cells, such as glia and vascular cells.

 

We already know that you can transplant a neuron from a mouse to a rat that lives twice as long and the neuron will last twice as long as the original host mouse, all without genetic engineering.   

 

Already in humans we've seen humans last over 120 years, that is neurons lasting over 50% longer than the average lifespan without genetic engineering, mostly the same genetic maintenance and repair exists in all humans and in all human cells.  Some cells lasts months others last decades, and some believe perhaps indefinitely.

 

It is a phenomena similar to that which happens in insects where despite the exact same genome differences in gene expression can lead to  over10 fold differences in lifespan.  Some insects lasting months while others last over half a century.

 

We could check the neural genetic maintenance and repair of say bowhead whale, as well as their metabolic activity.   In terms of repair and maintenance, I doubt drastic SENS like engineering was done by evolution.  It is imho likely that human neurons if transplanted into a bowhead whale would last just as long, over two centuries.  At least that is what the mice results, and the lifespan of Jeanne Calment without dementia would suggest.   Ponder if without genetic modification individual human cells can last over 120 years, how come individual humans tend to last just around 80 years?  Ponder if a mouse has genetic repair and maintenance that allows its cells to last over twice its lifespan why does it live half as long as its very cells have the potential to live?

 

In humans we've already seen people who worked for decades in offices where you could barely see from all the smoke, also people who smoked two packs of cigarettes a day, and even those who were high amounts of burnt black processed meat eaters.   Nothing stopped these people from reaching centenarian status, obviously such high carcinogen load led to cancerous cell after cancerous cell formation, but their body fought it off.

 

 

Already it has been seen in some mice that there is a sort of cancer immunity present, able to naturally fight off implants of aggressive cancer cells:
 "Spring 1999. “Professor Cui, this mouse didn’t get cancer. Should I get rid of him?” It was a standard experiment in Zheng Cui’s lab at Wake Forest University, North Carolina: Inject inbred mice with cancer cells, not to study cancer, but to produce antibodies for a lipid experiment. “There must have been a mistake,” said Cui, “Inject him again.” Two weeks later, still no cancer. “Try again with a higher dose!” Still no cancer. No cancer even at a million times the lethal dose. Cui decided to breed the mutant mouse."-source huffington post


  Research in some humans also showed similar immune cells more apt at fighting cancer, indicating that some form of cancer immunity might be present in some humans.

Two interesting snippets from the above huffington post article:
 1st
"Cui began to seek funding to test the transfusion theory. He already knew support wouldn’t come easily; blood transfusions are old technology and so can’t be patented. The pharmaceutical industry of course would take no interest. And as Cui found, clinical oncologists resist anything outside the usual treatments, even when they have nothing more to offer their patients."-source huffington post

Again this bad horrible lust for uncontrollable wealth from many in the industry is sad.   Anything that can't make loads of money tends to be ignored, the pathetic thing is that many of the people involved from pharmaceutical CEOs to oncologists are drowning in cash from their large salaries, yet it seems many want more and can ignore promising new therapies if it won't satistify the uncontrollable lust for money.   I mean if you're already wealthy, this quest for more, more, more, well it's like some sort of mental disease especially when it costs human lives by delaying promising treatments.

2nd
"The bad news: His wife was diagnosed with stage IV squamous cell carcinoma with massive metastases to all her major organs (lungs, liver, spleen and kidneys) and was given months to live. She had run out of conventional treatment options after partial surgery and chemotherapy. But he planned to take her to China for treatment at his other trial site in March 2013. Two months ago, good news and bad news again. Good news: we met with Cui and his wife. She looked terrific. To the astonishment of her doctors, her condition appears completely stable after 14 months, with no further treatment of any sort. She told us the transfusions gave her a high fever, but no other side effects."-source huffington post

Further reading of the huffington post article shows how promising therapies go unfunded while millions go into pathetic drugs that at most tend to offer only a few more months of life with many side effects.   Cancer is an evolving, an adapting, living disease, to fight such immune therapies seem far more promising.   Given that some people live through decades of high carcinogen consumption, as mentioned above, and again still live symptom, disease, free, obviously the bodies of some are able to handle it, to defeat it.

It's good to see that at least some of those involved in cancer research can get what seems like access to such promising research.

 

 

The natural state of biology is to self renew, to self perpetuate, biology is fundamentally ageless.   Even some of the fastest reproducing cell lines only have about  400 mutations after a century of lifespan, that is in a human centenarian, compared to around 50 mutations in a newborn, negligible in a genome of billions of bases.

 

Simulations of immortal versus mortal organisms, have suggested that mortals can actually outcompete immortals such that mortality can evolve.

 

In the brain it seems as long as the glymphatic system is operational molecular garbage can be removed and no neurodegeneration occurs.   It is failure of the glymphatic system that appears to precipitate degeneration and disease.   How do we know that the lymphatic system in the rest of the body doesn't also have a similar function carrying away molecular junk?

 

In any case just as a human can last 50% longer than average without vast engineering solutions, it may be the case that each cell has the genetic maintenance and repair to last twice as long, perhaps indefinitely.   At least in the mice each cell has the capacity to last twice as long as the mice itself does.

 

Regards moving or traveling, if all is digital all that is needed is to change the local digital patterns, and you can bring people and places from past present future in any location real or fictional.   No need to traverse the stars or universes.   All possible worlds would be accessible from within the ultimate computer.   I also do not think a digital computer needs to run for time within the simulation to exist, from an atemporal pattern or an eternal pattern time may emerge as some physicists believe might be the case for our reality with the idea of the temporal block time universe where all moments are eternal and an atemporal superstructure holds them all.

 

So all that would need happen is for the appropriate pattern to be embedded in an eternal substrate, which may already be the case.


Edited by Castiel, 31 August 2016 - 02:17 AM.


#49 shadowhawk

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Posted 31 August 2016 - 02:20 AM

Well you have the sure evidence there which you can trust.  I won't violate the topic by arguing if you have real evidence or not that  YOU can really count on.  All that counts is if you believe it and it needs no evidence.  Cant wait for that gene splicing.  Now where did you say this was happening?



#50 Castiel

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Posted 31 August 2016 - 02:39 AM

Well you have the sure evidence there which you can trust.  I won't violate the topic by arguing if you have real evidence or not that  YOU can really count on.  All that counts is if you believe it and it needs no evidence.  Cant wait for that gene splicing.  Now where did you say this was happening?

 

The relevant link regarding the cancer research is in the quote, click on the text huffington post.   It is not gene splicing, it is transfusions of immune cells.  And it is only necessary for those who do not have innate cancer immunity.   

 

Regards unlocking the potential for far longer lifespan, I think perhaps a combination of a few drugs could alter gene expression enough that far longer lifespan results.    The neurons show that animals cells have the potential to last over twice as long as the original host in some animals, some say indefinitely. 

 

Even if the body was made ageless, it would still not be indefinite due to loss of neurons, say for example from vascular incidents,  in areas like those controlling autonomous breathing.   In animals this is said to be one of the causes of natural death with no identified cause.  After enough neurons are lost breathing becomes probabilistic, and eventually a significant probability of stopping breathing during sleep occurs.   The animal dies in its sleep.   An alarm detecting breathing could stop such deaths, as they would wake the person who could restart breathing, but that would only be postponing more serious issues that would occur with increasing cell loss over time.

 

To truly allow for indefinite lifespan the regenerative abilities have to be unlocked, as there are animals able to regenerate even the central nervous system.   If you can regenerate the central nervous system, cell loss would be compensated.

 

Here's an interesting video with  Dr, Michael Fossel



#51 shadowhawk

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Posted 02 September 2016 - 02:19 AM

Interesting but not to hopeful.  The evidence seems far from supporting anything like immortality.  I guess it will remain in our dreams.



#52 Castiel

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Posted 02 September 2016 - 12:11 PM

Interesting but not to hopeful.  The evidence seems far from supporting anything like immortality.  I guess it will remain in our dreams.

 

Information, the essence of things, it can be preserved biologically for at leasts billions of years.   Technologically, trillions of years are possible without invoking exotic solutions, just using the available energy in the universe.

 

If either the universe can have a controlled collapse as Tipler suggested or we can embed ourselves in eternal black holes, which are suggested to be possible, and guarantee their evolution,  we've effectively attained true physical immortality.

 

More speculatively is the notion that the universe is a naturally occurring simulation, likely on a very simple architecture, and that it may be possible to attain absolute dominion, absolute control over its underlying rules fundamentally being able to rewrite the very laws of physics.   If this were the case, what some would call advanced akashic engineering or advanced reality warping would be possible.

 

In any case I do not believe temporal discontinuity, interrupts the flow or continuity of consciousness, it may be that time itself is discrete and we already experience discontinuity without issue.   If this is so, quantum uncertainty will ensure our bodies will be re instantiated in some future time, and we will experience continuity of consciousness indefinitely.

 

I believe it is highly likely that we are already immortal.  True death is like absolute nothingness, something that may very well not exist.  The question then is do you want control over your own fate or not?   We've seen the dangers of immortality in fiction, time and again.  If your mind moves from body to body, and you've no control over its evolution, and you're constantly losing memories, etc.  well your fate will from time to time take you to very dark places, and perhaps one day you may end up in a very dark place indefinitely.   To guarantee this does not happen, you need to take control over your future timeline, your future evolution.   Discarding the physical body, does not destroy information, the essence of the mind, this information lives on indefinitely.


Edited by Castiel, 02 September 2016 - 12:14 PM.


#53 shadowhawk

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Posted 02 September 2016 - 10:20 PM

Information based on wishful thinking.  And you believe you will survive a black hole if you ever live long enough to get into one.  I could go on but then this thread is about wishing isn't it?  I wish too.



#54 Otto F.

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Posted 03 September 2016 - 09:07 AM

If it became possible for you to live forever, then I assume it would be possible for everyone to live forever. If everyone lived forever, then nobody would live for very long. To imagine a world where nobody dies is to imagine a dead world. You, me, we...are not separate from the source of our lives. We are emergent beings, not separate entities. We emerged from an organized system and no matter how much control we gain over it, even to the point of destroying it, we can never become separate from it. It doesn't belong to us, we belong to it. In this system, we live; and in this system, we die. We will certainly extend life for "the few"...some people will live for ? centuries...but that, in itself, will become a problem for the rest of humanity who are "left to die". The only consolation available to a person confronting the fact of death is the knowledge that that they are not alone. Every human-being who ever lived has consoled themselves with the thought, "everybody dies". It seems an interesting paradox that the fear of death is the fear of being separated from the world of the living, and the consoling thought is, essentially, that you are not alone. If there are any exceptions to "the rule", there is no conciliatory value. Imagine the psychological effect on 7 billion people deprived of that one consoling thought as they grieve the death of someone they love and suffer the angst in confronting their own. So, we might now add to the classic "water, fire or ice" end of the world scenarios..."immortality".



#55 Castiel

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Posted 03 September 2016 - 01:03 PM

Information based on wishful thinking.  And you believe you will survive a black hole if you ever live long enough to get into one.  I could go on but then this thread is about wishing isn't it?  I wish too.

 

To you it may seem amazing that a set of marbles or a set of pipes or a set of circuits or a set of neurons could carry out the same computations.  But alas it is so, universality of computation is the reality.   Despite how amazing it may seem, it is what it is.   The idea that altering the initial setup or perhaps the matter and energy falling into a black hole could  result in useful computations being performed is not such an outlandish idea.   The idea of transferring the computations from a biological computer to another substrate is not so outlandish, once you realize that computation is ubiquitous and of a similar nature.

 

Like heavier than air flight once upon a time, we have examples of proof of principle,  once upon a day you might have said heavier than air flight is wishful thinking, but the proof that it could be done was right there staring at you in nature.   Similarly that other systems can exhibit universal computation is staring you in the face, that the brain is a biological computer is also staring.   It is reality, wishful is to think that reality, what reality is telling you, is wrong.

 

Realize that against the word of truth, the reality of the world, when all religions stand up to the light of truth, they crumble, edifices of lies, shadows from a distant past.   The eternal nature of information is not in doubt, wishful is to think that it is when all evidence points to the contrary.   Beings which are in essence information, wishful is to think that their continuity somehow differs from that of their continually existing essence.



#56 Danail Bulgaria

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Posted 12 September 2016 - 04:05 PM

... To imagine a world where nobody dies is to imagine a dead world. ... The only consolation available to a person confronting the fact of death is the knowledge that that they are not alone. Every human-being who ever lived has consoled themselves with the thought, "everybody dies". ... Imagine the psychological effect on 7 billion people deprived of that one consoling thought as they grieve the death of someone they love and suffer the angst in confronting their own. So, we might now add to the classic "water, fire or ice" end of the world scenarios..."immortality".

 

Why to imagine a world in which nobody dies is to imagine a dead world?

 

The consolation of "everybody dies" is not enough to let all of the people to die.



#57 shadowhawk

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Posted 12 September 2016 - 07:56 PM

 

Information based on wishful thinking.  And you believe you will survive a black hole if you ever live long enough to get into one.  I could go on but then this thread is about wishing isn't it?  I wish too.

 

To you it may seem amazing that a set of marbles or a set of pipes or a set of circuits or a set of neurons could carry out the same computations.  But alas it is so, universality of computation is the reality.   Despite how amazing it may seem, it is what it is.   The idea that altering the initial setup or perhaps the matter and energy falling into a black hole could  result in useful computations being performed is not such an outlandish idea.   The idea of transferring the computations from a biological computer to another substrate is not so outlandish, once you realize that computation is ubiquitous and of a similar nature.

 

Like heavier than air flight once upon a time, we have examples of proof of principle,  once upon a day you might have said heavier than air flight is wishful thinking, but the proof that it could be done was right there staring at you in nature.   Similarly that other systems can exhibit universal computation is staring you in the face, that the brain is a biological computer is also staring.   It is reality, wishful is to think that reality, what reality is telling you, is wrong.

 

Realize that against the word of truth, the reality of the world, when all religions stand up to the light of truth, they crumble, edifices of lies, shadows from a distant past.   The eternal nature of information is not in doubt, wishful is to think that it is when all evidence points to the contrary.   Beings which are in essence information, wishful is to think that their continuity somehow differs from that of their continually existing essence.

 

Well those things you mentioned are amazing to me.  Why do they exist rather than not exist?  I am sure you wish you knew.  It is also amazing to me that you think you could live long enough to get to the nearest black hole and that you would survive traveling through it to emerge immortal. 



#58 shadowhawk

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Posted 12 September 2016 - 07:59 PM

 

... To imagine a world where nobody dies is to imagine a dead world. ... The only consolation available to a person confronting the fact of death is the knowledge that that they are not alone. Every human-being who ever lived has consoled themselves with the thought, "everybody dies". ... Imagine the psychological effect on 7 billion people deprived of that one consoling thought as they grieve the death of someone they love and suffer the angst in confronting their own. So, we might now add to the classic "water, fire or ice" end of the world scenarios..."immortality".

 

Why to imagine a world in which nobody dies is to imagine a dead world?

 

The consolation of "everybody dies" is not enough to let all of the people to die.

 

Everything that is only physical dies.Imagine it isn't so.



#59 Castiel

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Posted 13 September 2016 - 05:07 AM

 

 

Information based on wishful thinking.  And you believe you will survive a black hole if you ever live long enough to get into one.  I could go on but then this thread is about wishing isn't it?  I wish too.

 

To you it may seem amazing that a set of marbles or a set of pipes or a set of circuits or a set of neurons could carry out the same computations.  But alas it is so, universality of computation is the reality.   Despite how amazing it may seem, it is what it is.   The idea that altering the initial setup or perhaps the matter and energy falling into a black hole could  result in useful computations being performed is not such an outlandish idea.   The idea of transferring the computations from a biological computer to another substrate is not so outlandish, once you realize that computation is ubiquitous and of a similar nature.

 

Like heavier than air flight once upon a time, we have examples of proof of principle,  once upon a day you might have said heavier than air flight is wishful thinking, but the proof that it could be done was right there staring at you in nature.   Similarly that other systems can exhibit universal computation is staring you in the face, that the brain is a biological computer is also staring.   It is reality, wishful is to think that reality, what reality is telling you, is wrong.

 

Realize that against the word of truth, the reality of the world, when all religions stand up to the light of truth, they crumble, edifices of lies, shadows from a distant past.   The eternal nature of information is not in doubt, wishful is to think that it is when all evidence points to the contrary.   Beings which are in essence information, wishful is to think that their continuity somehow differs from that of their continually existing essence.

 

Well those things you mentioned are amazing to me.  Why do they exist rather than not exist?  I am sure you wish you knew.  It is also amazing to me that you think you could live long enough to get to the nearest black hole and that you would survive traveling through it to emerge immortal. 

 

 

You assume that we need gradual replacement for continuity of existence.  Non gradual replacement I believe will preserve continuity.  IF the same pattern reappears somewhere, the same experiences, and the same observer goes along with the pattern, it is a property of the pattern.     Given infinite time the pattern will reappear an infinite number of times.

 

As for why patterns exist rather than not, more information is needed, but the fact that they are immaterial and can move from medium to medium from substance to substance whilst preserving all their properties suggests their nature transcends physical reality.

 

Hypothetically it doesn't make sense to say that the truth begins to exist, truth is eternal.  One is not the underlying physical body, underlying matter, as that is constantly changing constantly being replaced, one is the pattern atop it.  And patterns do not die, they only relate to each other.
 



#60 Danail Bulgaria

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Posted 13 September 2016 - 05:13 AM

 
 

Everything that is only physical dies.Imagine it isn't so.

 

 

I can imagine it.

 

For some it depends on the definition of death and of being alive.

 

For me, in my belef, all possible threats for being alive are preventable per se. It needs only the needed technologies to be developed, e.g. all its needed is time and effort. Even if the Earth stops existing, the human kind may go to another planet, later after millions of years in another star system, later on, after billions of years to create its own universe. Everything is possible. It is only a matter the technologies to be made - wish, time and effort. 

 

 


Edited by seivtcho, 13 September 2016 - 05:32 AM.

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