119 replies to this topic

[shadowhawk]

 

 

 

Everything that is only physical dies.Imagine it isn't so.

 

 

I can imagine it.

 

For some it depends on the definition of death and of being alive.

 

For me, in my belef, all possible threats for being alive are preventable per se. It needs only the needed technologies to be developed, e.g. all its needed is time and effort. Even if the Earth stops existing, the human kind may go to another planet, later after millions of years in another star system, later on, after billions of years to create its own universe. Everything is possible. It is only a matter the technologies to be made - wish, time and effort. 

 

 

imagine away.  It is on topic.  You planning on being in your fantastic millions of year future??  Everything is possible?  Is it possible you will not make it and the entire cosmos dies as it is now?
 

[Castiel]

 

 

 

 

Everything that is only physical dies.Imagine it isn't so.

 

 

I can imagine it.

 

For some it depends on the definition of death and of being alive.

 

For me, in my belef, all possible threats for being alive are preventable per se. It needs only the needed technologies to be developed, e.g. all its needed is time and effort. Even if the Earth stops existing, the human kind may go to another planet, later after millions of years in another star system, later on, after billions of years to create its own universe. Everything is possible. It is only a matter the technologies to be made - wish, time and effort. 

 

 

imagine away.  It is on topic.  You planning on being in your fantastic millions of year future??  Everything is possible?  Is it possible you will not make it and the entire cosmos dies as it is now?
 

 

 

http://intelligencee...nly-a-Human.jpg

 

YEs only a human can do X, no ai can do X!

 

You're on a similar level, only a God can do X, no human can do X!

 

The list of things only God can do will shrink just as much as the ai list did, eventually it will disappear.

 

The list of parlour tricks in the bible, people were in wonder because they believed only God could do it.  Now we know man will heal the deaf, the blind, and yes even the amputee.   You believe the power of resurrection and the power of immortality will forever be God's.  But who told you that? 

 

  Oh yes some book filled with hearsay, which cannot even prove the parlour tricks that supposedly prove its divine origin.   Guess what, the book is so sad and dated it doesn't even realize the list of parlour tricks is proof for ignorant peasants, but constitutes ZERO proof for knowledgeable individuals.   Even if you had rock solid proof of all the miracles, that is not proof of it coming from God.  You've just been duped into buying a load of nonsense, like a group of remote hunter gatherers might think of us as gods if they saw our abilities.

 

Your rock solid certainty that there will forever be a gap in our power, I wouldn't be so sure of that.   The foundation of that doubt is far from solid.

[shadowhawk]

This is imagination and anyone can do it.  There is no foundation and you have provided none.  How are YOU going to overcome just a few of the many problems?  How do you know and what evidence do you have that our power isn't limited and at least isn't powerful enough to save you from the worm?  Dream on but don't ask these kinds of questions whose answers elude you.  Lets imagine you get to the edge of a black hole.  Now what is on the other side that gives your imagination so much hope?  Perhaps another worm?  It could be.

 

[Castiel]

This is imagination and anyone can do it.  There is no foundation and you have provided none.  How are YOU going to overcome just a few of the many problems?  How do you know and what evidence do you have that our power isn't limited and at least isn't powerful enough to save you from the worm?  Dream on but don't ask these kinds of questions whose answers elude you.  Lets imagine you get to the edge of a black hole.  Now what is on the other side that gives your imagination so much hope?  Perhaps another worm?  It could be.

 

Even some of the so called holy books have it spelled clearly the truth will set you free.  At least some truth in them.  You may think the powers of science we haven't even dreamed of are to be limited because they dwarf the tall tales of some ignorant peasants from millenia ago.   Guess what, things change.

 

All we have is imagination, and you believe it to be limited for some reason.   Ideas do not die, patterns do not die, information does not die, it only changes.  You believe change means an absolute end, but it need not be.   The world, the truth of the real world, what we know of it suggests that true death, is like true nothingness something that very well might not actually exist.   You come with the writings of blind men from a distant age who only caught a glimmer of a reflection of the truth.   What they've written pales in comparison to the truth.

 

Perhaps the truth will not set us free, perhaps even the living eternal truth will lead to absolute death.   But if that is the case no fabricated deity of a fabricated book, no man made god can save us, it would be reality.

 

Though immortality is far scarier than true death, true immortality is only worth having if you've at least the illusion of control over your own fate.  There are countless bad loops and dead ends were things could turn ugly indefinitely, and no guarantee of an ideal solution.

 

The simple minded may dream of a god that gives them life after death, but those with greater knowledge may dream of a god that can give them true death.    Yet it might actually be logically impossible and beyond any deity's power to grant one of these.

Edited by Castiel, 13 September 2016 - 10:59 PM.

[shadowhawk]

Hay I have imagined you at the edge of a black hole.  I didn't raise questions of how you got there or how much time it would take.  Now you bring up religion which is off topic, and truth.  I admit your scientism is much like a religion but we admittedly are dealing with the fantastic not truth. This is science fiction at best.  Science is a method and this is not about any method.  So far you have engaged in make believe and given your testimony that you believe your imaginations to be the truth what ever that is.  Don't claim this is scientific.  Dream on, its on topic.  Imagination can go in ANY direction. 

[LarryFeltonJo]

I'd frankly just be happy with indeterminate lifespan.  It's more realistic than thinking about living past the demise of our solar system, although for me, at 65-years-old, it's nearly as unlikely.

[shadowhawk]

I'd frankly just be happy with indeterminate lifespan.  It's more realistic than thinking about living past the demise of our solar system, although for me, at 65-years-old, it's nearly as unlikely.

 

This is about make believe.  What ever you want.  Don't worry about the worm which will if the past predicts the future will get everything purely physical.  Since you do not know when that happens, it is indeterminate.  Could be 50 years from now if you are lucky.
 

[Castiel]

Hay I have imagined you at the edge of a black hole.  I didn't raise questions of how you got there or how much time it would take.  Now you bring up religion which is off topic, and truth.  I admit your scientism is much like a religion but we admittedly are dealing with the fantastic not truth. This is science fiction at best.  Science is a method and this is not about any method.  So far you have engaged in make believe and given your testimony that you believe your imaginations to be the truth what ever that is.  Don't claim this is scientific.  Dream on, its on topic.  Imagination can go in ANY direction. 

 

?    Biological immortality is not science fiction, we've proof in principle of ageless animals.  Their machinery is guided by genes, not magic.    We already know that genes can be transfered from one organism to another and confer traits, that is reality, not science fiction.  Your ignorance of this, is what is fantasy.  The truth is reality, the physical world, we gain knowledge of it in the body of science.

 

With what we know already biological immortality combined with the energy of fusion from matter will allow for billions of years lifespan.   That is not science fiction that is just a possibility that's as evident as heavier than air flight would have been centuries ago.  

 

Now to believe we won't find any further solution, to claim that there is no solution, that is fantasy, that is delusion, and you know not of that. 

 

Make believe in death, make believe now, information is not created nor destroyed that is scientific fact, reality,  the delusion and the make believe is to claim the contrary in opposition to reality.    Know that you cannot defy reality, the moment you start contradicting reality, you're spouting pure and utter nonsense that is entirely erroneous.

 

One can have faith, blind and absolute faith in the existence of death.  But it is more reasonable to be 'agnostic', uncertain, about it.   The reality is most of what is known if you analyze it, it points to it not being an irreversible process but merely a loss of information, a temporary loss of memories.

Edited by Castiel, 14 September 2016 - 12:44 AM.

[LarryFeltonJo]

 

I'd frankly just be happy with indeterminate lifespan.  It's more realistic than thinking about living past the demise of our solar system, although for me, at 65-years-old, it's nearly as unlikely.

 

This is about make believe.  What ever you want.  Don't worry about the worm which will if the past predicts the future will get everything purely physical.  Since you do not know when that happens, it is indeterminate.  Could be 50 years from now if you are lucky.
 

 

 

My family genetics are probably good for at least another 40 years, even with no great medical breakthroughs.  With a generally unhealthy lifestyle my father made it to 88, and my mother to 94.  

 

But since this is about make believe, hell yes I'd want to be immortal.

[LarryFeltonJo]

 

I'd frankly just be happy with indeterminate lifespan.  It's more realistic than thinking about living past the demise of our solar system, although for me, at 65-years-old, it's nearly as unlikely.

 

This is about make believe.  What ever you want.  Don't worry about the worm which will if the past predicts the future will get everything purely physical.  Since you do not know when that happens, it is indeterminate.  Could be 50 years from now if you are lucky.
 

 

 

My family genetics are probably good for at least another 40 years, even with no great medical breakthroughs.  With a generally unhealthy lifestyle my father made it to 88, and my mother to 94.  

 

But since this is about make believe, hell yes I'd want to be immortal.

[shadowhawk]

 

Hay I have imagined you at the edge of a black hole.  I didn't raise questions of how you got there or how much time it would take.  Now you bring up religion which is off topic, and truth.  I admit your scientism is much like a religion but we admittedly are dealing with the fantastic not truth. This is science fiction at best.  Science is a method and this is not about any method.  So far you have engaged in make believe and given your testimony that you believe your imaginations to be the truth what ever that is.  Don't claim this is scientific.  Dream on, its on topic.  Imagination can go in ANY direction. 

 

?    Biological immortality is not science fiction, we've proof in principle of ageless animals.  Their machinery is guided by genes, not magic.    We already know that genes can be transfered from one organism to another and confer traits, that is reality, not science fiction.  Your ignorance of this, is what is fantasy.  The truth is reality, the physical world, we gain knowledge of it in the body of science.

 

With what we know already biological immortality combined with the energy of fusion from matter will allow for billions of years lifespan.   That is not science fiction that is just a possibility that's as evident as heavier than air flight would have been centuries ago.  

 

Now to believe we won't find any further solution, to claim that there is no solution, that is fantasy, that is delusion, and you know not of that. 

 

Make believe in death, make believe now, information is not created nor destroyed that is scientific fact, reality,  the delusion and the make believe is to claim the contrary in opposition to reality.    Know that you cannot defy reality, the moment you start contradicting reality, you're spouting pure and utter nonsense that is entirely erroneous.

 

I see you are sticking to the topic well.  Nothing purely physical is immortal or ageless.  Dream on.  They will die and ignorance believes they will not.  Some things are longer lived than others but everything purely physical dies but lets play that they are immortal.  Someway they have to get off the earth because it  has a very hot fiery future.  There is no such thing as biological immortality and we know of nothing immortal.  Surely science has not demonstrated it.

 

You imagine fusion will allow immortality!  Nice one.    II have no objection to this except you seem to believe it is scientific!  Surely you don't.  Radiation in the real world usually kills.  And then you compare this to flight!    Logical fallacy but then you are kidding right?

 

You have no evidence all things and issues can be solved just because of your unscientific antiscience.  Some things are what they are and have characteristics which do not allow anything to happen.  The cosmos is governed by rules and laws.  Believing we will continue to discover things does not mean we will discover everything we can make up.

 

You are exercising excellent fantastic thinking  if you think you are immortal.  Making believe you won't die physically is completely bankrupt of evidence which is overwhelmingly stacked against you 100%.  That's reality and what science supports.  However I do not want to go off topic.  You will have genes transferred into you when you climb a redwood tree and live for 6000 years.  Not immortality but a long time.   Nice one.

[Danail Bulgaria]

Conversation is very nice, and it is true, that the 3 of us went out of the topic. Why not we simply make a topic, named "Everything physical dies" and move into it?

[Castiel]

I see you are sticking to the topic well.  Nothing purely physical is immortal or ageless.  Dream on.  They will die and ignorance believes they will not.  Some things are longer lived than others but everything purely physical dies but lets play that they are immortal.  Someway they have to get off the earth because it  has a very hot fiery future.  There is no such thing as biological immortality and we know of nothing immortal.  Surely science has not demonstrated it.

 

 

 

You imagine fusion will allow immortality!  Nice one.    II have no objection to this except you seem to believe it is scientific!  Surely you don't.  Radiation in the real world usually kills.  And then you compare this to flight!    Logical fallacy but then you are kidding right?

 

You have no evidence all things and issues can be solved just because of your unscientific antiscience.  Some things are what they are and have characteristics which do not allow anything to happen.  The cosmos is governed by rules and laws.  Believing we will continue to discover things does not mean we will discover everything we can make up.

 

You are exercising excellent fantastic thinking  if you think you are immortal.  Making believe you won't die physically is completely bankrupt of evidence which is overwhelmingly stacked against you 100%.  That's reality and what science supports.  However I do not want to go off topic.  You will have genes transferred into you when you climb a redwood tree and live for 6000 years.  Not immortality but a long time.   Nice one.

 

Depends what you mean by physical, you seem to solely focus on matter.  It is true that some believe perhaps the proton will decay sometime in the future.  But even if such happened it would only change state.

 

The reality is that not only matter but energy is part of the physical world, and interacts with physical reality.  Neither matter nor energy is created nor destroyed, this is physical law, this is reality, this is truth.

 

It is also interesting that despite the massive flood of the body of truth, all the stories that have become available showing countless possible interpretations and hypotheses.  You remain firm believer in your senses, your reality, doubt your senses, doubt reality, question everything.   The fact that even with the flood of information not more people question their reality and their beliefs, that is an absurdity of ridiculous proportions.

 

 

How long can Uranium last for nuclear power ? 5 billion years at double current world electricity usage.-http://www.nextbigfu...or-nuclear.html

 

 

 

About 1 in 6500 hydrogen atoms in seawater is deuterium. Deuterium abundance on Jupiter is about 2.25×10^−5 (roughly 22 atoms in a million, or 15% of the terrestrial deuterium-to-hydrogen ratio.

There is enough water in the ocean to provide energy for 3 X 10^11 years at the current rate of energy consumption.-http://www.nextbigfu...-yottawatt.html

There have already been visualized ways to move even entire stars, even the sun itself, moving the earth shouldn't be out of the question.  Nearby stars are said to have trillion year plus lifespan.  Of course their qualities are different to the sun so it wouldn't be the same, but it is possible.

 

We can move the earth, we can also turn it into a starship, o r dismantle it and turn it into a fleet of ships.   Even with our present day technology ways to change the orbit and survive any solar expansion have been envisioned and seemed technically reasonable.

 

As for the physical dying, in the past it was believed that a change to pure energy would be a higher state of existence, we may already be information the highest state of existence.   Energy does not die, I can hope we can at least agree on that, and energy is part of the physical world.  This is reality, this is the truth, this is the physical law of our world, that the physical world cannot be  destroyed.

 

Irregardless, question your senses, question reality, question everything.   The nature of the world, the curtains of reality, the  shackles of existence, their true nature, what is it?   The fact that not more people are questioning their very world, their very essence, their core beliefs, this is a ridiculous absurdity.   The flood of information, such an overwhelming number of stories that would have taken over a thousand lifespan for a hunter gatherer to be exposed to, such should have been able to start loosening the chains, and freeing the mind.

Edited by Castiel, 14 September 2016 - 09:58 AM.

[shadowhawk]

Wow good one.  Nothing dies, only decays.  Someone imagined they could move stars.  Must be so.  Don't believe your senses or reality, doubt everything and then  everything can be true but then even doubt that.  What is real is what ever you want it to be!  Nice, on topic.  We can change the orbit of the earth!  It is possible if you imagine it so.  So is death extinction or decay?  If decay from a usable functioning, conscious, form then there is death.  This occurs when the body stops functioning as a living body, decays and falls apart eaten by the worm.  You end up worm shit.  This is living?  THIS IS WHAT lONGECITY IS ABOUT, STOPPING THIS KIND OF DEATH.  Nice one.  The elements that made up the body are still there as dust.  So they exist and with considerable imagination they are still alive and do not die.  OK.  No need for Longecity!!!  It must be so if you are functioning in REALITY.  If becoming worm shit is simply how you look at it, dream on.

[Castiel]

Wow good one.  Nothing dies, only decays.  Someone imagined they could move stars.  Must be so.  Don't believe your senses or reality, doubt everything and then  everything can be true but then even doubt that.  What is real is what ever you want it to be!  Nice, on topic.  We can change the orbit of the earth!  It is possible if you imagine it so.  So is death extinction or decay?  If decay from a usable functioning, conscious, form then there is death.  This occurs when the body stops functioning as a living body, decays and falls apart eaten by the worm.  You end up worm shit.  This is living?  THIS IS WHAT lONGECITY IS ABOUT, STOPPING THIS KIND OF DEATH.  Nice one.  The elements that made up the body are still there as dust.  So they exist and with considerable imagination they are still alive and do not die.  OK.  No need for Longecity!!!  It must be so if you are functioning in REALITY.  If becoming worm shit is simply how you look at it, dream on.

 

The definition of medical death moves, perhaps you don't know of this.  It is pushed further and further out.   The technical details of changing the orbit of the earth are not requiring exotique physics or technology, the proposals are quite reasonable and quite realistic.

 

If someone says we're going to mars, you don't go "OH, the fantasy of going to mars!", we have the technology, we have the proposals, the path is realistic. 
 

You know a lot of the matter that made up my brain has been replaced, as it is for all, yet here I am.   That matter may be in the ground, in the trees, in the air.     I'm indifferent to it, doesn't change the fact that I remain.

Edited by Castiel, 14 September 2016 - 09:42 PM.

[shadowhawk]

As i said everything that is only material dies.  You have not always been here in the past and from everything we and science has demonstrated you will not be here indefinitely in the future.  If you identify as worm droppings and the basic elements of the past, then YOU WILL NEVER DIE.  Even the heat death of the cosmos will not kill you.  Congratulations.  Why don't I think YOU will be here.  Perhaps YOU will be in a bag of worm castings and become a carrot in someone else s garden..  Perhaps this is your moving definition of death or life.  As for Mars what does your logical fallacy have to so with it?  Nothing. 

[Castiel]

As i said everything that is only material dies.  You have not always been here in the past and from everything we and science has demonstrated you will not be here indefinitely in the future.  If you identify as worm droppings and the basic elements of the past, then YOU WILL NEVER DIE.  Even the heat death of the cosmos will not kill you.  Congratulations.  Why don't I think YOU will be here.  Perhaps YOU will be in a bag of worm castings and become a carrot in someone else s garden..  Perhaps this is your moving definition of death or life.  As for Mars what does your logical fallacy have to so with it?  Nothing. 

 

That is a belief, a statement of faith, what isn't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen.    IF I have amnesia, it doesn't mean the past does not exist.  Whether I've existed in the distant past or not, without memory, one cannot know which case it is.    But things that one does not recall can exist, and one could very easily be a participant of events one does not even recall, even right now a simple drug and you will be conscious, aware, but the events in which you're participating removed from your memory, a gap in it.

 

As for everything that is matter decaying, the decay of the proton is not proven yet.  That is a statement of faith.

 

In particle physics, proton decay is a hypothetical form of radioactive decay in which the proton decays into lighter subatomic particles, such as a neutral pion and a positron. There is currently no experimental evidence that proton decay occurs.-wiki

 

 

On top of that some say time crystals might be possible once again.   Even now there are ways to preserve the brain such that worms will not consume it, and its information will be preserved.  If information is not loss, medical death is effective stopped, for future medicine can reverse ever greater degrees of so-called death.   What once was dead, what can or cannot be resurrected, the boundary is pushed time and again.

 

We're not there yet, but for me resurrection is something that will be easy peasy come some day.    When I hear some book say look he had resurrection that proves everything he says is true.  To me that's no different than saying look he had an ipod everything he says is true.  The miracles of the ancients will be trivialities for our future selves.   The hocus pocus that impresses ignorant peasants, shouldn't impress one exposed to all that is possible the gateway of truth, the sea of information.

Edited by Castiel, 15 September 2016 - 12:19 AM.

[shadowhawk]

What does it mean to be proven.  The second law of Thermodynamics while supported by strong evidence is not proven which is a term for mathematics.  Evidence is the word I prefer.   That the Cosmos is running down and energy available capable of doing work is a scientific law predicting the cosmos is dyeing a heat death and everything in it.  Everything purely physical dies.  That is not faith but a fundamental law of physics.

 

Information indeed is a necessary aspect of decay and usable information is lost or loses its formative power with mutation and decay.  That is an aspect of the Second Law.  The topic is what we "WANT," to be true of immortality and so far our disagreement seems to be not with your wanting but with you thinking it represents some scientific fact,  Want away.  Science on the other hand is not a position of belief but a method.  When you commit logical fallacies making unrelated comparisons, if it is "wanting," I have no problem.  On the other hand it seems you are making clams beyond that with your impressive ipod that is better than a resurrection.  Show me a resurrection.  Show me an ipod.  We will see which is greater.  By the way, my ipod is broken but it will only take a few dollars to fix it.  How about your body?

[Castiel]

What does it mean to be proven.  The second law of Thermodynamics while supported by strong evidence is not proven which is a term for mathematics.  Evidence is the word I prefer.   That the Cosmos is running down and energy available capable of doing work is a scientific law predicting the cosmos is dyeing a heat death and everything in it.  Everything purely physical dies.  That is not faith but a fundamental law of physics.

 

Information indeed is a necessary aspect of decay and usable information is lost or loses its formative power with mutation and decay.  That is an aspect of the Second Law.  The topic is what we "WANT," to be true of immortality and so far our disagreement seems to be not with your wanting but with you thinking it represents some scientific fact,  Want away.  Science on the other hand is not a position of belief but a method.  When you commit logical fallacies making unrelated comparisons, if it is "wanting," I have no problem.  On the other hand it seems you are making clams beyond that with your impressive ipod that is better than a resurrection.  Show me a resurrection.  Show me an ipod.  We will see which is greater.  By the way, my ipod is broken but it will only take a few dollars to fix it.  How about your body?

 

With synthetic biology my body will eventually be fixable for free. Want to see resurrection just go to a hospital and see how medical death has had to be redefined.

 

We are said to lack a complete theory of physics, a ToE, without that any law that appears a law may be breakable.   Some physicists even claim immortality and resurrection are basically proven and inevitable consequences of the known laws of physics and that those who deny this do so because they have ignorance of the laws of physics.   I'd have to verify that, though.

[shadowhawk]

Sounds like quite a redefinition.  Then this is make believe.  And where did you say I could go to check it out?  You don't need verification in this topic and I seriously doubt if there is any.  There is great evidence all people die physically.  Who are the "some scientists?"

[Castiel]

Sounds like quite a redefinition.  Then this is make believe.  And where did you say I could go to check it out?  You don't need verification in this topic and I seriously doubt if there is any.  There is great evidence all people die physically.  Who are the "some scientists?"

 

Regards the claim that physics proves immortality, and those who deny such do so out of ignorance of physics.   Perhaps he's right perhaps he's not.  But I would have to carefully examine his claims, as he is claiming this is a statement of truth, the truth of the world.   The physicist which I've seemed to have heard say that is Tipler. It is like islam, you try and say something about it and you're usually told you need to read the original arabic because it somehow cannot be easily translated, or something to that order.   That means that you'd have to spend years learning arabic to be able to tell whether it has any significant relation to the truth.   Everything is related to the truth as such are aspects of the truth, all history, all fiction, all information.  Such are portions of the truth.

 

That said effectively you're saying :

Oh my goodness, life won't find a way, the truth won't set you free, evolution will not be able to find the solution to the query(implicit in the algorithm).

Edited by Castiel, 16 September 2016 - 08:52 AM.

[shadowhawk]

Where did I say physics proves immortality?  Show me.  Then you say this betrays ignorance of physics.  Show me how the second law of thermodynamics violates physics.  You didn't identify the scientist you have been talking about.  Does he/she exist?  Tipler did not say that and I am very familiar with him.  Your reference to Islam which has nothing to do with this topic is very confusing.  You can wish better than that.  Some thing are true and others false and it does not depend on your wishing.  If you are wishing, then I have no problem and you are on topic.  The scientific method shows some things true and others false,  It does not support truth is just what ever you make up.  On the other hand science itself has not been proven as the only way to truth and has its weaknesses.  Let me say it again, everything that is ONLY physical dies.  Give me an example otherwise.  Even long lived things can die.  I could kill any of them.

[Castiel]

Where did I say physics proves immortality?  Show me.  Then you say this betrays ignorance of physics.  Show me how the second law of thermodynamics violates physics.  You didn't identify the scientist you have been talking about.  Does he/she exist?  Tipler did not say that and I am very familiar with him.  Your reference to Islam which has nothing to do with this topic is very confusing.  You can wish better than that.  Some thing are true and others false and it does not depend on your wishing.  If you are wishing, then I have no problem and you are on topic.  The scientific method shows some things true and others false,  It does not support truth is just what ever you make up.  On the other hand science itself has not been proven as the only way to truth and has its weaknesses.  Let me say it again, everything that is ONLY physical dies.  Give me an example otherwise.  Even long lived things can die.  I could kill any of them.

 

I didn't say you said physics proves immortality, I said regard the claim, as in regard the claim that has been made by some as to physics proving immortality and resurrection, I comment on Tipler. 

 

You may be familiar with Tipler but it appears you've not seen his interviews at singularity one on one or the q and a at the turing church.

 

Basically iirc, Tipler says from physics emerges God, the resurrection, immortality and christianity.   Again I'd have to look deeply into it to see if that's the case.

 

Again, you say everything physical dies, that implies either that the vacuum expansion will intensify and shatter the protons or that the protons will decay.  Both unproven claims, without that the proton would last indefinitely(assuming no destructive reaction was applied). Also transition from energy to matter back to energy is not death, it is merely change.

 

That said symbols can be arranged in arbitrary patterns, some are self consistent and others are not.  Throughout all the possible patterns, I've hypothesized the existence of a metapattern unifying all possible patterns, the essence of truth to which all beliefs fictional real false or true must reaffirm and even in their self contradiction provide evidence for it.

 

Even through a body of lies the truth at the heart of existence shines through, the lies can but reaffirm it.

 

 

In logic, proof by contradiction is a form of proof, and more specifically a form of indirect proof, that establishes the truth or validity of a proposition. It starts by positing the opposite proposition is true, and then shows that such an assumption leads to a contradiction. Proof by contradiction is also known as indirect proof, apagogical argument, proof by assuming the opposite, and reductio ad impossibilem. It is a particular kind of the more general form of argument known as reductio ad absurdum.[1][2]

G. H. Hardy described proof by contradiction as "one of a mathematician's finest weapons", saying "It is a far finer gambit than any chess gambit: a chess player may offer the sacrifice of a pawn or even a piece, but a mathematician offers the game." [1]-wiki proof by contradiction

 

Edited by Castiel, 17 September 2016 - 07:55 AM.

[shadowhawk]

Good because I did not say matter was annihilated and at times it seems you are arguing with a straw man of your own creation.  As for Tipler yes that is what he believes.  So, how does it relate?  Is Immortality a spiritual rather than a physical issue.  That which is only physical dies while that which is spiritual does not?  What does it mean to be alive?

Edited by shadowhawk, 19 September 2016 - 12:36 AM.

[Castiel]

Good because I did not say matter was annihilated and at times it seems you are arguing with a straw man of your own creation.  As for Tipler yes that is what he believes.  So, how does it relate?  Is Immortality a spiritual rather than a physical issue.  That which is only physical dies while that which is spiritual does not?  What does it mean to be alive?

 

Tipler's claim is based on his understanding of physics as leading to this as an inevitability.  Either his understanding is incomplete or erroneous or if it is right, then it is reality and must be accepted.

 

Again, that is the claim of some of the final beliefs like islam, they claim to be of divine origin and evidently true.  Either they are evidently true or they are not.

 

As I said my matter changes constantly, and I remain because I'm not my matter, but the information the patterns embodied in it.  Already storage solutions allow for information to last billions of years. Information itself is not destroyed.   

 

The claim that if we look at all possible evolutionary paths that no path leads to survival is a strong claim.  And that is in essence what you're claiming.   A single powerful enough lifeform survives and it can resurrect all other lifeforms and all of existence.  

 

Of course it depends on what is possible, what the nature of reality is.   But claims about what can and cannot be done, oh you can't fly, you can't reach the moon, you can't live forever, these are scientific claims and they're falsifiable.   If reality says one way or the other the argument is decided and your beliefs regards the matter, matter nothing at all.
 

[shadowhawk]

I am not making a strong claim of faith but without exception one that is observable.  It is precisely disorganization of information which brings death.When you die your body no longer functions following the same information it did while alive.  Mutation and decay destroy information and there is always a loss of information.  Entropy seems to effect physically organized information as well.  This takes place as you age.  You are not geting closer to life as you age but closer to death.  But then we are close to being off topic. 

[Farhad]

A lot of interesting comments and perspectives I've never thought about, but if I had to say, I'd be delighted with limitless time to do whatever I wish.

[shadowhawk]

Christmas is always a good time of wishing.    You have about 120 years the evidence so far says if you are very, very lucky.  Double that and its still a blink of an eye.  Every thing purely physical dies in their own time.

[poutintsev]

I would accept it and it is my biggest dream.

 

And yes I would not care that Earth (with our solar system) would be destroyed eventually and I would just float around the space without contact with any livable planet (not to mention life or intelligent life).

 

Nothing can be worse than dying. And I don't see this as a torture. If I was immortal I would learn how to live by myself without human contact, I would be fine.

 

If there was an option like this I would take in a heart beat. 

Edited by poutintsev, 01 November 2017 - 07:48 PM.

[nickthird]

The Earth and solar system will not likely be destroyed. Within billions of year humans will most likely build a Dyson sphere to absorb the energy of the sun, so that it does not evaporate earth when it becomes a red giant.

Also the expansion of the universe has no effect on distance between bodies that are gravitationally bound, so the Galaxy will stay together, and same for the cluster etc.